What do people think of combining slow time with vital strike? 3 vital strikes in a round at 3 short of full bab is pretty sweet.
Even without the slow time though, I have always felt that vital strike was strongest with a monk or possibly a polymorpher. But monks are likely the highest damage die characters, and they have high movement. So it possibly shapes up well. Also a monk can be a strong spell interrupter if he readies a vital strike to interrupt a casting.
I dunno. I'm far from an expert, but I think Vital Strike is weak for monks. They have 3/4 BAB on standard attacks — so basically, they are better off doing a maneuver on every turn they can't full attack, which — unless they are out of shuriken — ought to be never.
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Wow, 300+ responses! I'm glad to see Treantmonk's hard work has so many responses =)
I look forward to seeing the APG update for this as well. The APG had some interesting monk options - the Zen Archer in particular looked fascinating to me. The monk's weakness is that he's best when standing still and making a full attack - something that most archers have no issues doing many rounds in a row.
Also why would anyone use a shuriken? Its ammo, its a d2 and its 10ft range makes it a I might as well be in melee combat weapon.
Because it's the only ranged weapon that a Monk can flurry with.
Because it's the only ranged weapon that a Monk can flurry with.
Also why would anyone use a shuriken? Its ammo, its a d2 and its 10ft range makes it a I might as well be in melee combat weapon.
And he can spam so many that if he has a good Str bonus (and he should) that the damage really adds up.
TreantMonk is my source on this. In his guide. You know, top of the thread?
Never tried it myself, but it makes a pile of sense.
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Yeah but they are d2s. Add in some str and perhaps they are a bunch of d2's that get an extra 3 to 4 damage per hit. They are ammo, meaning enchanting them is a waste of gold. Also once again, they have a 10 ft range increment. Either you are only 10 or 20 ft away and have a decent chance to hit or you are 40-50 ft away and are unlikely to hit much at all. Either way,you might as well walk over and tag your opponent with a single attack that does almost as much as a full round of pricking your opponents finger and atleast then you have a better chance of getting a full round flurry on your next turn with real weapons.
Unless you also enchant them at +5, making them overcome most DR as well as adding to your damage. +5 from Str and +5 from enchantment means you're dealing 11 points minimum on each hit. The magic also helps mitigate that range penalty.
I would personally rather not invest in GMW shurikens unless this is coming for free from someone in the party.
Unless you also enchant them at +5, making them overcome most DR as well as adding to your damage. +5 from Str and +5 from enchantment means you're dealing 11 points minimum on each hit. The magic also helps mitigate that range penalty.
Which, odds are, you could do.
It's viable, anyway. I'm not the type to say "this is the only way", but a wizard has a number of lower-level spells slots that could go into this kind of short term enchantment as-needed.
That and busting out 8 shuriken in a shot like genesis-era Shinobi has some serious nostalgia payload for a monk player, I'm guessing.
Or... I keep my Brass knuckles at +1 the rest go to weapon enhancements and instead of getting 50 +x enhanced attacks I now get them on my brass knuckles. Then each hit doesn't cap out at 6-11 damage fully optimized.I would personally rather not invest in GMW shurikens unless this is coming for free from someone in the party.Which is why you save the expensive ones for enemies your inexpensive masterwork shuriken with their 6 damage minimum can't hurt.Third Level Pearl of Power. You're Wizard can now cast Greater Magic Weapon twice in a day for one prepared slot (and if not the monk, then still SOMEBODY else in the party is going to take advantage of that other casting.)
Bam, every day turn 50 shuriken into +X relevant to level.
I dunno, the ranged option is still pretty tempting. I won't say for sure that one or the other is better. I actually rather enjoy that this conversation even exists! Until TreantMonk pointed it out, I thought shuriken were completely useless.
A little something I liked with the four wind monk and the campaign settings material:
half elf (alkenstar) ancestral weapon(firearms)
Grab yourself two scatter guns and quick draw and vital strike then hit monk of the four winds 12:
Vital strike scatter gun (6d6 exploding)
Vital strike scatter gun (6d6 exploding)
vital strike scatter gun (6d6 exploding)
Now granted it's not the best in the world -- but adding in deadly aim to that and making the scatter gun magical really does make the damage a beautiful thing (even if only twice a day).
Something else such a monk can manage:
Combat expertise, improved grapple, greater grapple, stunning fist as feats, then:
Stunning fist (first standard action)
Grapple the stunned target (second standard action)
Pin the stunned target (third standard action)
move action (hurt the target)
Not a garuantee -- but when it works it's a show stopper.
While we wait for Treatmonk to update his guide with the APG options, I thought it might be interesting to discuss how people see the alternatives to Stunning Fist as the monk special attack power.
Specifically, what do you think about Punishing Kick and Touch of Serenity?
My own 2 cents, comparing them to Stunning Fist:
Punishing Kick:
Pro - offers some of the benefits of combat maneuvre outcomes (prone condition and relocating foes 5') without the risk of AOO or incurring prone with a fail-by-10 on your roll. Allows you to attack, damage AND inflict a combat maneuvre-like status effect at the cost of a Fortitude save. Works against undead, etc. that are immune to Stunning Fist. Don't have to buy Improved Combat Maneuvre feats in order to produce 'prone' condition.
Con - Still dependent on save DC. If you want to take it in addition to Stunning Fist you have to wait until level 11+ due to BAB+8 requirement. Prone still allows foe to take actions (unlike stun).
Touch of Serenity:
Pro - lets you shut down a foe's attacks or spell actions for 1 round. Tactical variety of allowing you to target Will saves rather than Fortitude, therefore potentially good against Fighter types who have worse Will than Fortitude. Since foe can't AOO for 1 round, you could attempt other combat maneuvres relatively risk-free if you are flurrying.
Con - you don't do damage. It also works as a regular attack not a touch attack.
My sense is that these feats do open up some interesting tactical options for monks and they do give you good nerfs without being as expensive as investing in the Improved to Greater Combat Maneuvres. Plus, you can use them in your Flurry of Blows. Of course, if you take these feats as part of the Monk of the Lotus or Hungry Ghost monk archetypes you do get some additional interesting boosts at higher levels.
If I had to choose between them for a vanilla monk with Stunning Fist, I would currently lean towards Touch of Serenity since it allows me to take advantage of lower-Will save enemies.
What I like very much in the APG is the Ki Throw and Improved Ki Throw feats and how they can rock in conjunction with Greater Trip and Greater Bull Rush.
Now, add Lunge in the mix and get Enlarge cast on you by the party wizard... And you have a 15' reach and are able to toss opponents on each others on AoO, knocking them prone.
It works even better if you and the party hitters have Combat reflexes.
What I like very much in the APG is the Ki Throw and Improved Ki Throw feats and how they can rock in conjunction with Greater Trip and Greater Bull Rush.
Now, add Lunge in the mix and get Enlarge cast on you by the party wizard... And you have a 15' reach and are able to toss opponents on each others on AoO, knocking them prone.
It works even better if you and the party hitters have Combat reflexes.
Yeah, I was interested in the Ki Throw feats, but they really work best if you've already invested in Combat Maneuvre feats (not an issue if you've followed Treantmonk's advice), but if you invest in them, you really have to make sure your trip maneuvre is really effective, because they all hang mechanically on that.
Enlarge is necessary if you want to trip anything larger than L since, sadly, you can't use ki points to boost your trip.
All that said, if you pull off that combo you described, its FUN.
Re: Shurikens and making them work - I find the guide "interesting" at best on it's take. It presents a feat-intensive build for a MINIMAL range increment weapon that has no method of returning, and then shatters on impact (even adamant ... FTW???). It's a bad idea. I'm with puregamer on it being a *bad* choice. 10' range increments just SUCK! Add in the changes to the way it works in PF (ie: Far Shot no longer increases weapon range increments, just reduces penalties), and it's even worse. Building a monk like Treantmonk suggests (ie: str is king) will make this even MORE ineffective as his primary stat and focus does NOTHING to help him at range ... ever!
Honestly, for the feat-investment cost, the BEST ranged options monks have were in 3.5's CW with the Ki-Blast feat and the Fiery Fist feat to pre-qualify for it.
As a ranged action here's the bullet run-down of what Ki-Blast brings to the table:
*60' Range Increment
*3d6 + Wis Modifier in damage
*Ranged Attack mods (ie: Dex can help vs. str).
*Classified as a "Ranged Touch Attack" means it's a VERY reliable ranged attack given most everything has terrible touch AC's (ie: it's not a wasted attack action).
*Being a spiritual ball of ki, the things can hit incorporeal creatures.
Cons of how it works:
*move action to generate the ki-ball, and a standard to shoot it off = Full Round Action to use
*Costs 2 Stunning Fist uses/ki-blast - pricey!
So, with shuriken, you can flurry like a mad-man and not hit the broad side of a barn ... OR you can pick up Ki-Blast and make full-round ranged touch attacks as long as you have SF uses left to fuel it. Basically, it's a nearly guaranteed 3d6+wis mod (built the way I build monks, then this is a good investment and a solid damage modifier), OR it's 1d2+str ... IF it hits in the first place.
Another feat to consider from 3.5 to help the monk: Zen Archer. Why? Because it lets you swap wis for dex in determining ranged "to hit" calculations. (see where this is going yet? *wink* *wink*)
:shrugs:
I'm not a fan of the "bolo-young" monk anyway, so take that for what it's worth.
Considering the build I'm going with anyway, if you look at the req's for ki-blast, fiery fist is actually a GOOD melee feat to use (1d6 fire damage for one SF use), and it's not a *wasted* feat or something with a "feat tax" like say the ranged chain of feats are. It will always be a good idea to pick it up - follow? Fighting something immune to Stun? use Fiery Fist! It gives a monk options (and another daily use of SF - along w/Ki Blast, too). This is a good thing, IMO. Continuing up, if Zen Archer is allowed from CW, then you're also reducing MAD on the monk. If you get an AoMF with the Guided property, you're solid gold with that feat as Wis now modifies ALL of your to hit AND damage rolls through the ki blasts. Melee is ruled by the AoMF, and wis gets to add in there. Zen Archery lets it handle ranged to hit numbers, and ki-blast modifies it's damage with wis - it's a solid investment on all sides ... FAR better than a mere shuriken, even if you're tossing 50+ of the dang things ...
(lol! hilarious image of what the AoMF can look like a shaolin prayer necklace of beads ... very simple, but very powerful for them! Ha!)
I don't think anyone is suggesting that you build a shiruken-centric monk. They're an option for those times you're unable or unwilling to close with an opponent, nothing more.
Fine - as a fall back option ... they're still pretty terrible.
;-)
At the guide's suggestion of taking the 2 feats (PB Shot and Far Shot I believe), it's a 2-feat deep chain to *maybe* make the option "not as bad" let alone things like Precise Shot (just to avoid another -4 if you're targeting something involved in a melee ... on top of range penalties). So, honestly, to make it "ok" you're looking at like 3 feats of investment, or some magical gear with similar properties (like bracers of archery, etc) to make it even viable as an option.
It's just a bad idea and a bad trade.
The 3 feats I put forth back porting from 3.5, by comparison, are all solid additions to the monk and his tactical options. Fiery Fist = elemental damage option to increase overall damage, and additional SF uses. Ki Blast = significant ranged damage and a VERY good target AC with a chance of critical strikes (3d6 on a crit = 6d6 ... hot damn!!) also granting additional SF uses. Zen Archery allows for wis to modify ranged combat (and w/ki blast it's already adding to damage at range).
Seriously ... in every way EXCEPT Pathfinder Society play, this is simply a far better option for ANY monk to function at a range.
Edit: Scary thought here - toss Deadly Aim into the mix above for the Ki-Blast and now we're talking about dumping to hit +'s on a Ranged Touch Attack - so, you can likely dump freely and just load up on the damage with virtually NO penalty what so ever (sine the target AC is so low). Nice!!!
While we wait for Treatmonk to update his guide with the APG options,I imagine it's going to be a long wait. Each APG option is almost adding a completely separate class. And TM tends to be conservative on what he writes about.
Probably a good guess!
I haven't been playing as often lately and that reduces my motivation to pump out guide information,
and to put it bluntly, the APG is pretty huge, with many, many very nasty options to choose from.
Then there are various other distractions at home right now.
My intention is to eventually update every guide with an APG section (which will practically be a second guide), but I have no idea when that will be (I haven't done any yet, just scattered some random notes and observations into a notepad file), probably sometime where I'm motivated enough that it doesn't feel like work ;)
I personally think that the Vital Strike feat tree is a great option for the Monk. Yes, he will be using his 3/4 attack bonus, but he will only be using his best attack out of that. At level 11 that is only a 1 point difference. If you have a Str based Monk, odds are that attacking with Vital Strike will have a better bonus to hit than a ranged weapon that uses your secondary Dex bonus instead of your primary Str bonus. For example, if your standard flurry is +18 (11 bab, +6 Str, +1 WF, -2 Flurry, +2 enhancement), you can either use Vital Strike at +17 (8 bab, +6 Str, +1 WF, +2 enhancement) OR throw shurikens at +15 (11 bab, +4 Dex, +1 PBS, -2 Flurry, +1 enhancement). The Vital Strike is more of an all-or-nothing attack, but when it hits, it will hit hard. Plus after the attack you are now in melee range and ready for a flurry.
People seem to have no problem with calling the Rogue a damage dealing machine, and they use their 3/4 attack bonus even when full attacking with two weapons. That means they have a maximum BAB of +13 vs. the Monk's +18. If the Rogue flanks to get +2 to hit and get his Sneak Attack damage on every hit, then the Monk can flank for the +2 to hit as well. The big difference is that if the target has Uncanny Dodge, the Monk is not screwed.
A few more points. Vital Strike uses all of the feats and enchantments that you used to boost your primary attack (Unarmed Strike) and you can combine it with a Stunning Fist attempt.
At level 11 Vital Strike has a range of 80' ( 30' +30' Monk +20' Ki Point, or 160' on a Charge).
For shurikens I assumed masterwork shurikens or figured you could get someone to cast Magic Weapon. Yes, they would be only 1 less to hit than Vital Strike (and 2 less than your standard flurry) if they had the same enhancement bonus, but you have to pay extra for that. Vital Strike will be using the same enchantment that you bought to boost your flurry attacks.
If you want you can add Power attack to Vital Strike. If you want to add Deadly Aim to your shurikens, you are going to need to spend another feat.
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Yep, new options tend to change the effectiveness of old options.
Personally, I'm expecting to see strong jaw errated-out for monks, based on the handling of INA.
The non-updated guide listed shurikens as a good option for monks especially at low levels.
At higher levels it seems more likely to me that the monk who focused on ranged attacks would head the zen monk route and reap the benefits of strong jaw at range.
So the question becomes whether vital strike pushes past the zen archer.
The weapon master monk will go a ways in offsetting the monks less-comparable attack bonus, allowing for a higher hit rate which will substantially impact dpr.
Now, is there a pathfinder way to make brass knuckles flurry-able?
Btw, what do you mean when you say there's a 1 point difference? One point between what?
At level 11, if you're deciding between a ranged attack and a melee attack, the only time you'll pick ranged is if there's a darn good reason to stay ranged. Otherwise, you'd be using a combat maneuver of some sort. If you're just closing, then whether vital strike is superior to a combat maneuver becomes situational. A three-feat, four-levels of non-monk situational. While there might be a great hybrid you could create to take advantage of this combo, I think it'd be more likely to fall into the domain of a shapechanged druid in, what was it? Stego or Rhino form?
Anyhow, when comparing vital strike versus deadly aim with shurikens, you're really only going to do so with characters who've already decided they're not focusing on ranged damage. Thanks to some of the APG options, there's a bit more flexibility in what a monk needs. So it's very possible to work some vital striking in, but I wouldn't suggest more than the first vital strike, and definitely not switching out the last four monk levels, and their benefits, *just* for vital strike. I'm sure there are some compelling hybrids for it, but not for that feat in that comparison.
I love the vital strike chain myself. I just think for the monk here, it's a suboptimal choice.
Now, the zen archer actually has a much better ab since the monk has that much less MAD to worry about. I'll try to use your comparisons as much as possible. So:
If your standard flurry is +18 (11 bab, +6 Str, +1 WF, -2 Flurry, +2 enhancement), you can either use Vital Strike at +17 (8 bab, +6 Str, +1 WF, +2 enhancement) OR using the archer setup, using a bow at +18 (11 bab, +6(ish) Wis, +1 PBS, -2 Flurry, +2 enhancement, +1 WF). The Vital Strike is more of an all-or-nothing attack, but when it hits, it will hit hard. And you are in melee range. The archer, meanwhile, if he chooses will deal the same damage dice as the buffed unarmed strike, obviously without the vital srike increase, but get an additional +2 from weapon specialization, deal a full round of attacks, and get three rolls per attack. Also, this monk will be standing far, far away from the combatants so less risk of poundage. Granted, the monk doesn't get stunning attacks in there. That doesn't show up for two more levels.
A more melee focused monk will probably be the weapon master,if for nothing else than the perfect strike ability. Still, the question of whether the extra damage of vital strike is better than, oh, the greater bull rush prone aoo goodness will largely be situational. I tend to favor Treant's thoughts on the tactical benefits being greater than a round of double, triple, or even quadrapole damage if you're willing to lose monk levels. Sometimes just isn't worth all the expense IMO.
I might get bored later and stat up a pathfinder-optimized zen monk and the same for a weapon master monk. It'll be interesting to see how the two compare.
What do people think of combining slow time with vital strike? 3 vital strikes in a round at 3 short of full bab is pretty sweet.
Even without the slow time though, I have always felt that vital strike was strongest with a monk or possibly a polymorpher. But monks are likely the highest damage die characters, and they have high movement. So it possibly shapes up well. Also a monk can be a strong spell interrupter if he readies a vital strike to interrupt a casting.
If you manage to be enlarged and have the APG spell StrongJaw cast on your UA, an humble 2d6 becomes a solid 4d6, for three 12d6 + bonus attacks around level 12.
I've to say that I prefer monk use maneuvers when to flurrying, maybe stacking Stunning Fist "substitutes" at higher levels, but if you have friendly casters, magic items or wand viable...
Now, is there a pathfinder way to make brass knuckles flurry-able?
Yes, its the "monk" weapon quality that brass knuckles currently possess.
Fine - as a fall back option ... they're still pretty terrible.
;-)
At the guide's suggestion of taking the 2 feats (PB Shot and Far Shot I believe), it's a 2-feat deep chain to *maybe* make the option "not as bad" let alone things like Precise Shot (just to avoid another -4 if you're targeting something involved in a melee ... on top of range penalties). So, honestly, to make it "ok" you're looking at like 3 feats of investment, or some magical gear with similar properties (like bracers of archery, etc) to make it even viable as an option.
It's just a bad idea and a bad trade.
The 3 feats I put forth back porting from 3.5, by comparison, are all solid additions to the monk and his tactical options. Fiery Fist = elemental damage option to increase overall damage, and additional SF uses. Ki Blast = significant ranged damage and a VERY good target AC with a chance of critical strikes (3d6 on a crit = 6d6 ... hot damn!!) also granting additional SF uses. Zen Archery allows for wis to modify ranged combat (and w/ki blast it's already adding to damage at range).
Seriously ... in every way EXCEPT Pathfinder Society play, this is simply a far better option for ANY monk to function at a range.
Edit: Scary thought here - toss Deadly Aim into the mix above for the Ki-Blast and now we're talking about dumping to hit +'s on a Ranged Touch Attack - so, you can likely dump freely and just load up on the damage with virtually NO penalty what so ever (sine the target AC is so low). Nice!!!
I had a player ask if he could do that.
I basically said I don't allow 3.5 in Pathfinder. It keeps things from going insane.
Also. I told him I'm definitely not willing to endure all the bloody DBZ jokes everytime he shoots his blast. TeamFourStar has that covered, and he is certainly not TeamFourStar.
Monk of the Lotus: Touch of Serenity is interesting, and possibly as useful as Stunning Fist (maybe more useful once the duration is extended to 2+ rounds). Does it work on constructs and undead? It doesn't say it doesn't. (That's one of my pet peeves -- abilities that clearly should have the [mind-affecting] descriptor, but don't.) Touch of Surrender is interesting and kind of neat (although rather expensive). Touch of Peace is okay, but charm monster is probably weaker than instant death. Learned Master is harmless.
Touch of peace doesn't allow a save. That's pretty impressive.
Actually thinking about it is a little bit worrying as you don't have a limit on the number of creatures you can charm.
Ofcourse you can't make them take hostile actions but still...
AoMF with Vicious abiliy for cheapness anyone?
Too much of a downside for saving 15k for the same damage output [with a cost, obviously]?
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I've never played a monk in any edition, so I'm taking Bulmahn's competitive lunchtime campaign as an excuse to try out the class. For thematic reasons I'm interested in a monk of the empty hand (APG) who specializes in improvised weapons.
I've got a 20-point build, and while I will probably go back and tinker with things later for the basic character sketch I'm content to use Treantmonk's ability score distribution.
With one caveat. I've also never played a character that specializes in combat maneuvers, so I want to give that a try. I therefore decided to swap TM's Con and Int scores. That's a pretty significant hit to hit points, but I plan to sink all of my favored class bonuses into hit points, so at least I feel like I'm not losing anything on that front. It's a big sacrifice, but I think it's worth it.
What I'm currently tinkering with is a flurry-focused stunning fist-using unarmed combat character a la the guide. But I want to take Catch off Guard and Improved Disarm to set up a nasty punishment involving grabbing my enemy's weapon and beating the crap out of him with it.
You can do a disarm as part of a flurry, so an ideal situation would involve my monk doing a full attack flurry that starts with a disarm attempt, for which I can get a +5 as the first attack. If that works, since I am unarmed I can grab the weapon, triggering the "target is treated as flat-footed" element of Catch off Guard for the second attack of the flurry. As an empty hand monk in conjunction with Catch off Guard, I could even use the enemy's weapon in subsequent flurry attacks. With Improved Disarm, my CMD versus disarm attempts to grab the weapon back would be 20, which seems pretty good to me at first level.
Having Combat Expertise unlocks better tripping options later, and I can also see myself getting Power Attack and maybe Weapon Focus (unarmed attack) in the next few levels.
What I'm wondering is if there are any ultra-punishing exploits of an enemy's flat-footed condition that I might be able to find somewhere in the rules. The exact wording is "Unarmed opponents are flat-footed against attacks you make with an improvised weapon." I thought at first of a level-dip into rogue to get an extra 1d6 of sneak attack damage, but I am not sure that it's worth a whole level.
I know there are more powerful approaches to take than the Empty Hand/Improvised Weapon route I've outlined here, but I want to mess with that concept, optimizing as best as possible within that framework.
I'd love to hear anyone's suggestions.
What I'm currently tinkering with is a flurry-focused stunning fist-using unarmed combat character a la the guide. But I want to take Catch off Guard and Improved Disarm to set up a nasty punishment involving grabbing my enemy's weapon and beating the crap out of him with it.
My two cents: It's very campaign-dependent how many unarmed (i.e. without natural weapons, which basically restricts you to humanoid) opponents you'll meet. So it could be a great investment, or it could be terrible.
@Erik:
If you take Power Attack, I'd strongly recommend Shield of Swings - which let's the monk of the empty hand flurry with a significant bonus to AC. What's nice is that you can combo that with non-damaging maneuvers:
- Shield of Swings does not require you to use Power Attack to make use of the shielding - so you retain your full bonus to-hit
- You can then make use of non-damaging things like combat maneuvers (trip, sunder and disarm) on your flurries getting the full benefit of the maneuvers, while also gaining a +4 shield bonus to AC
- ...but you'll have to use a two-handed (improvised) weapon to make use of this
What level are you playing at?
With Improved Disarm, my CMD versus disarm attempts to grab the weapon back would be 20, which seems pretty good to me at first level.
Level 1, sounds like.
What I'm wondering is if there are any ultra-punishing exploits of an enemy's flat-footed condition that I might be able to find somewhere in the rules. The exact wording is "Unarmed opponents are flat-footed against attacks you make with an improvised weapon." I thought at first of a level-dip into rogue to get an extra 1d6 of sneak attack damage, but I am not sure that it's worth a whole level.I know there are more powerful approaches to take than the Empty Hand/Improvised Weapon route I've outlined here, but I want to mess with that concept, optimizing as best as possible within that framework.
I'd love to hear anyone's suggestions.
Multiclassing for the monk is generally not advised even for a bit of sneak attack damage. In the end the loss of a flurry level probably cancels out the bonus 1d6.
One thing that comes to mind is Medusa's Wrath at 10th level. Now, normally you can qualify by stunning or staggering the opponent, BUT that requires a fort save. If you can make successful disarm attempt, however, they become flatfooted, confirming your ability to medusa's wrath them mercilessly. Stunning fist does include more damage, but that extra fort check is not always a great chance, especially if you don't have an awesome DC.
The other thing that comes to mid is that the flatfooted condition helps you set up more maneuvers, lowering the opponent's effective CMD. If you end up with greater trip, you can use the flatfooted condition to help set up a damaging trip (with the AoO), AND get a +4 to hit for all your other iteratives. That aught to seriously beef up your damage.