There's no way I can actually buy a slave...


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Is it time for us to run wild now?

1/5 5/5

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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Dead Horse of Unusual Size wrote:
Is it time for us to run wild now?

*GASP*

Is that Invincible? Invincible? Can I get your autograph? I heard you're famous!

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Andrew Christian wrote:
thejeff wrote:

More seriously, the slave could be owned by a retired Pathfinder operative and sent on missions as needed. Assuming the slave's loyalty to the owner was sufficient and the owner was known to be loyal, I wouldn't see a problem with it.

The "slave's loyalty to the owner" would be more likely to grate on me and would require some serious explanation. Janissaries and mamelukes not withstanding, slaves trusted with combat training and wide freedom of action, particularly into countries where their slave status wouldn't be enforced, were quite rare.

If I remember correctly (and I might not) Radovan I believe is Varian Jeggare's slave.

Paid bodyguard... essentially a cohort.


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Dead Horse of Unusual Size wrote:
Is it time for us to run wild now?

Threads such as these are the source of my eternal un-life, but the true source of my power is Paladin threads.

Luckily, this thread has a bit of both.


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Dead Horse wrote:
Dead Horse of Unusual Size wrote:
Is it time for us to run wild now?

Threads such as these are the source of my eternal un-life, but the true source of my power is Paladin threads.

Luckily, this thread has a bit of both.

For every thread like this our numbers grow

5/5

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Cut off one head and two more shall grow back!

Silver Crusade 5/5

Andrew Christian wrote:
thejeff wrote:

More seriously, the slave could be owned by a retired Pathfinder operative and sent on missions as needed. Assuming the slave's loyalty to the owner was sufficient and the owner was known to be loyal, I wouldn't see a problem with it.

The "slave's loyalty to the owner" would be more likely to grate on me and would require some serious explanation. Janissaries and mamelukes not withstanding, slaves trusted with combat training and wide freedom of action, particularly into countries where their slave status wouldn't be enforced, were quite rare.

If I remember correctly (and I might not) Radovan I believe is Varian Jeggare's slave.

He started out as a paid bodyguard, and their relationship has evolved each book, to the point where Varian basically considers him an equal.

Silver Crusade

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I know there are dead horses laying about, no one said anything about a herd!

Grand Lodge 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Baltic

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There's no way I can actually buy a dead horse...

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

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With respect, folks, ...

The "dead horse" comments aren't helpful. They boil down to "I think this thread is played out, and I want to mock those people who still wish to carry on a conversation."

There seems to be a clear interest in the topic, and people have unresolved issues. Fresh comments are still being introduced.

If you, yourself, have grown tired of the thread, might I recommend that you begin a fresher one, on a topic that interests you more strongly, rather than cast scorn on the people who are involved here?

The Exchange 3/5

One of the OP's points was never actually discussed (bolding mine):

ThePuppyTurtle wrote:
And if I'm not missing anything, it seems to create a problem with Liberty's Edge characters, as there is pretty much no justifying why they'd work with someone who had a slave next to him. Alternatively, the player with the slave might work to find a way to let the Liberty's Edge character rescue their slave without actually engaging in PvP combat, which would be a cheap way to get several of Liberty's Edge's boons by freeing and mentoring a bunch of PC-owned slaves.

John Compton has already said this will not work in a post here, replying to a post earlier in the thread.

John Compton wrote:

"Could this include freeing prisoners the PCs take or preventing/dissuading a PC from taking a prisoner, such as the surrendered enemy combatant for the Silver Crusade? I'm going to assume no, but I imagine it could come up."

You are correct in assuming not. This applies to slave and other captives the PCs find, not ones the PCs make themselves. When in doubt, assume that these goals work off of opportunities that are already in the adventure, not ones the PCs sow themselves in order to farm objectives.

"Hey Major Maldris, I dominated a small village and forced them to perform morally debasing acts, but I generously freed them all a week later. Am I a hero, or what?!?"

The Exchange 5/5

UndeadMitch wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
thejeff wrote:

More seriously, the slave could be owned by a retired Pathfinder operative and sent on missions as needed. Assuming the slave's loyalty to the owner was sufficient and the owner was known to be loyal, I wouldn't see a problem with it.

The "slave's loyalty to the owner" would be more likely to grate on me and would require some serious explanation. Janissaries and mamelukes not withstanding, slaves trusted with combat training and wide freedom of action, particularly into countries where their slave status wouldn't be enforced, were quite rare.

If I remember correctly (and I might not) Radovan I believe is Varian Jeggare's slave.
He started out as a paid bodyguard, and their relationship has evolved each book, to the point where Varian basically considers him an equal.

Unless I am mistaken, several times in the stories there are references to the fact that Radovan started as Count Jeggare's slave... and thru loyal service their relationship has grown into that of partners.

Sovereign Court 5/5 RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Wei Ji the Learner wrote:
thejeff wrote:


Rarely would they be owned by private individuals and sent off by themselves with no supervision to countries that wouldn't enforce their slave status (and possibly in the company of abolitionists!)

That's what's going to require some serious backstory to justify.

Well, the door was opened to some possibilities with ** spoiler omitted **. Just because one party gets an idea, doesn't mean that there aren't others...

funny you mention those...

We had a party where enough people didn't trust posing as slaves that we ended up with two slave herders* and two slaves. This struck me as such a flimsy cover** that my character actually bought two halflings and because two slavers having only two slaves was pretty pathetic.

Amusingly, though it was insisted I free the slaves, no one wanted to pony up money to pay my LN character back.*** In my 'head canon' they serve as his rumor mongers for his information broker vanity.

*:
I at least had the reason that I spoke the local language, and was the only one that did.

**:
I'd ran it, so I knew the cover would be accepted regardless, but it 'felt wrong' so I spent 200 GP on RP fluff

***:
Yes, this is the same character who bought the slave for the Paladin to free. IC he knew the paladin would free the slave, so it's another 100 GP to annoy the character and amuse the player. Actually came up in the table.
GM: Well how much is a halfling slave?
Me: 100 GP
GM: How do you know that?
Me: Same PC bought one to annoy a Paladin in the prequel.


My Chelish PFS character (Sir Peter Harrumph) is likely to purchase a slave in the future, though he does not have one as of yet.

Then again, he has a somewhat "chivalric" view of master-slave relations, viewing it as "the burden of nobility", closer to the relationship between an Arthurian knight and the peasantry he serves than the relationship between a man and his property. He considers abuse and mistreatment morally repugnant, and a stain on the honor of the abuser and Cheliax alike.

This was a natural result of having been raised by an enslaved halfling referred to as "Nan" while his distant, uninterested parents frittered away the family fortune on frivolities. Nan has since retired to a small house in the country; he still visits her, between sessions.

He also uses "slip" as a term of endearment. The man's a little off his rocker.

1/5 5/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Matthew Morris wrote:


We had a party where enough people didn't trust posing as slaves that we ended up with two slave herders* and two slaves. This struck me as such a flimsy cover** that my character actually bought two halflings and because two slavers having only two slaves was pretty pathetic.

Amusingly, though it was insisted I free the slaves, no one wanted to pony up money to pay my LN character back.*** In my 'head canon' they serve as his rumor mongers for his information broker vanity.

Slave Ships:
When we were playing, when it became obvious that the broker was focused on money my Liberty's Edge character chunked down the money to 'become a client', and asked to get the 'inside scoop' on *any* future 'offerings'. Serves four purposes -- Helps him find who's selling. Helps him find who's being sold. Helps him build a 'cover' for if he ever has to go to Cheliax or Qadira. Didn't buy any 'product' himself, but now has a very solid 'inside track' to start on the long process of re-education of those who engage in the process.
Silver Crusade 3/5

Gareth Silversong wrote:
Matthew Morris wrote:

Best use of a slave ever...

Buy one and give him to the paladin. Then when he frees the slave pat him on the should and tell him "Owning your first slave is the hardest. It gets easier after that."

And yes, the player consented to making his pally squirm. He thought it was hilarious.

Well, if you like being backhanded with the gauntlets still on... :P

I'm glad this bit happened to appear again, because I'd wanted to comment on it but was late to the thread. My first reaction to the thought of another PC doing this to my paladin was, "I don't really think Gram will be able to live with this. He very well may commit seppuku at the end of the scenario." I'm pretty sure that's not the character development that anyone would have been looking for.

Now that this topic has come up, and I have had some time to think on the situation, I have an appropriate response. Thanks, I guess?

However, I would be really curious how the stereotypical paladin with dumped Int and Wis would respond.

Liberty's Edge

nosig wrote:
UndeadMitch wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
thejeff wrote:

More seriously, the slave could be owned by a retired Pathfinder operative and sent on missions as needed. Assuming the slave's loyalty to the owner was sufficient and the owner was known to be loyal, I wouldn't see a problem with it.

The "slave's loyalty to the owner" would be more likely to grate on me and would require some serious explanation. Janissaries and mamelukes not withstanding, slaves trusted with combat training and wide freedom of action, particularly into countries where their slave status wouldn't be enforced, were quite rare.

If I remember correctly (and I might not) Radovan I believe is Varian Jeggare's slave.
He started out as a paid bodyguard, and their relationship has evolved each book, to the point where Varian basically considers him an equal.
Unless I am mistaken, several times in the stories there are references to the fact that Radovan started as Count Jeggare's slave... and thru loyal service their relationship has grown into that of partners.

It is my memory that Radovan was never Jeggare's slave.

Silver Crusade 5/5

nosig wrote:
UndeadMitch wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
thejeff wrote:

More seriously, the slave could be owned by a retired Pathfinder operative and sent on missions as needed. Assuming the slave's loyalty to the owner was sufficient and the owner was known to be loyal, I wouldn't see a problem with it.

The "slave's loyalty to the owner" would be more likely to grate on me and would require some serious explanation. Janissaries and mamelukes not withstanding, slaves trusted with combat training and wide freedom of action, particularly into countries where their slave status wouldn't be enforced, were quite rare.

If I remember correctly (and I might not) Radovan I believe is Varian Jeggare's slave.
He started out as a paid bodyguard, and their relationship has evolved each book, to the point where Varian basically considers him an equal.
Unless I am mistaken, several times in the stories there are references to the fact that Radovan started as Count Jeggare's slave... and thru loyal service their relationship has grown into that of partners.

Check out this passage from "The Lost Pathfinder":

“Before I'd agreed to work for my present boss, the count, I'd earned my freedom from Zandros—not that he always remembered that fact. The scabby old bastard still tried to call in favors I never owed from time to time, jealous that I had a new master. Employer, I should say. That was one of the terms of our arrangement. I'm nobody's slave these days."

Considering how Varian worships Desna in private, I don't think he is in the market for slaves.

The Exchange 5/5

Clearly I was mistaken. Happens a lot.

:)

Shadow Lodge 5/5

*spittake*

The Exchange 5/5

TOZ wrote:
*spittake*

???what is this??? please explain.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

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The Spit-Take.

RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

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nosig wrote:
TOZ wrote:
*spittake*
???what is this??? please explain.

It's a kind of mushroom, I think.

The Exchange 5/5

Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
The Spit-Take.

?still puzzled. but not to worry, I often am that way around Mondays. (and today is the second Monday this week).

Sovereign Court 5/5 RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Nimrandir wrote:


I'm glad this bit happened to appear again, because I'd wanted to comment on it but was late to the thread. My first reaction to the thought of another PC doing this to my paladin was, "I don't really think Gram will be able to live with this. He very well may commit seppuku at the end of the scenario." I'm pretty sure that's not the character development that anyone would have been looking for.

Now that this topic has come up, and I have had some time to think on the situation, I have an appropriate response. Thanks, I guess?

However, I would be really curious how the stereotypical paladin with dumped Int and Wis would respond.

For me, the key is to remember it's a co-op. The player was cool with the action and everyone got a laugh out of his IC squirming.

Silver Crusade 3/5

I'm actually surprised I haven't encountered a slavery-related event, but this whole discussion has me thinking about how my non-Edge characters (as they are both freed slaves . . . yeah) would approach the situation. As an educator, I consider that a good thing.

Sovereign Court 5/5 RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

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Nimrandir wrote:
I'm actually surprised I haven't encountered a slavery-related event, but this whole discussion has me thinking about how my non-Edge characters (as they are both freed slaves . . . yeah) would approach the situation. As an educator, I consider that a good thing.

Well my exchange character is against slavery. Not because its wrong per se, but because it's 'bad for business.' My Liberty's edge character is a freed slave, so she clearly opposes it. My Soverign Court character doesn't have an issue, but she also feels it's better to have a roof over one's head with a chain, then to die because you have no skills to take care of yourself. Most of my characters don't think much about it.

And yes it's fun to see how different characters view the aspect.

Sovereign Court 5/5

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wizzardman wrote:

My Chelish PFS character (Sir Peter Harrumph) is likely to purchase a slave in the future, though he does not have one as of yet.

Then again, he has a somewhat "chivalric" view of master-slave relations, viewing it as "the burden of nobility", closer to the relationship between an Arthurian knight and the peasantry he serves than the relationship between a man and his property. He considers abuse and mistreatment morally repugnant, and a stain on the honor of the abuser and Cheliax alike.

This was a natural result of having been raised by an enslaved halfling referred to as "Nan" while his distant, uninterested parents frittered away the family fortune on frivolities. Nan has since retired to a small house in the country; he still visits her, between sessions.

He also uses "slip" as a term of endearment. The man's a little off his rocker.

Sir Peter would be welcome to join the Order of the Chain with this attitude. After all the Chain binds society together in both directions, those at the top have responsibility for those below.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
nosig wrote:
Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
The Spit-Take.
?still puzzled.

Your initial post in this chain was "Clearly I was mistaken. Happens a lot."

TOZ's "*spittake*" comment was meant to imply surprise or shock at such a sentiment in a humorous manner.

Liberty's Edge

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So this thread's started up again.

So the "lol u mad anoran bro?" slave-owning PC types are one thing. Jerks gonna jerk, after all. I can't take them seriously. The problem I'm having, that bothers me more the more I think about it, is with the Shiny Happy Slave PC types.

I want to first say that I do not believe that any of this is the intent of the players in question. It is, however, the effect that results.

Slavery has /never/ not been awful. Anywhere it's existed, in any time it's existed. And trying to pretend that slavery isn't one of the worst crimes a human can commit has an ugly history that continues to this day.

Then, we have characters presenting "slavery" as a state that can be super wonderful, such that the slave would be 100% against freedom even if achieving such was completely in their grasp. And this is bad, because they're presenting a terrible terrible institution in a way far more benign than it has /ever/ been in real history. (Or - correct me if I'm wrong - any canonical place on Golarion. Though I'm well past in-character objections at this point.)

All this makes me extremely uncomfortable. It's as if, in the middle of a session, another player narrated his character's wife showing up, him telling her he's too busy/not in the mood, and then she drops a /dominate person/ and drags him off. And before you object to the analogy, realize that slavery has /always/, wherever and whenever it has existed, come with lots and lots of rape.

And I don't know what to do about it. I mean, "don't play with those characters", sure, but I go to lots of cons. Probably 8 this year. I GM at cons. So if I'm ready to run a table at Gen Con, and one of the players introduces their character as Jane the Knife or 8255 or whatever? It's a legal character, and I owe that player the game they paid for - to say nothing of the other 5 players who are here to have fun. But I can't just brush this off anymore. What do I do?

Ugh. I've resisted quitting PFS over much more severe, and personal, BS, but this is just eating at me for some reason.

Dark Archive

You have to participate in their insanity for it to grow. Don't participate when you see someone trying to garner negative attention. I like Doug Miles's post, yep dayjob assination thanks moving on.

You must say at least PFS has the Silver Crusade and Liberty's Edge factions as a counterbalance.

Sovereign Court 5/5 RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

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I will confess, in a society with brothels, devil worship, demon worship, followers of gods of assassins, and of course the entire D/s overtones of one of the recurring characters, that exploring the aspects of slavery disturbing people makes me... amused.

The Exchange 5/5

Nefreet wrote:
nosig wrote:
Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
The Spit-Take.
?still puzzled.

Your initial post in this chain was "Clearly I was mistaken. Happens a lot."

TOZ's "*spittake*" comment was meant to imply surprise or shock at such a sentiment in a humorous manner.

but I am often wrong... so I still am at a loss on this. Whatever...

The Exchange 5/5

Matthew Morris wrote:
I will confess, in a society with brothels, devil worship, demon worship, followers of gods of assassins, and of course the entire D/s overtones of one of the recurring characters, that exploring the aspects of slavery disturbing people makes me... amused.

one of the aspects of Roman Slavery was that if a slave of a Roman Citizen was freed, he/she became a Roman Citizen. This was a big deal in a time when most of the population of an area were NOT Citizens (who had a bunch of Privileges/Rights that Non-Citizens did no). So, a question arises, what is the status of a freed slave?

In a society that has slavery, there are rules/laws/customs that deal with all aspects of it. How do these differ from place to place? Are slaves treated differently in Osiria than the would be in Qadira? Clearly there would be differences in how they are treated in Katapesh and Cheliax.

edit: It is funny that you should mention brothels... I was thinking that I have had more trouble at a PFS table with the "profession" of my courtesan PC than with the "profession" of my slave PC.

Silver Crusade 5/5

Guys, maybe it's time we just go ahead and put this thread out to pasture...

Sovereign Court 5/5 RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

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nosig wrote:
Matthew Morris wrote:
I will confess, in a society with brothels, devil worship, demon worship, followers of gods of assassins, and of course the entire D/s overtones of one of the recurring characters, that exploring the aspects of slavery disturbing people makes me... amused.

one of the aspects of Roman Slavery was that if a slave of a Roman Citizen was freed, he/she became a Roman Citizen. This was a big deal in a time when most of the population of an area were NOT Citizens (who had a bunch of Privileges/Rights that Non-Citizens did no). So, a question arises, what is the status of a freed slave?

In a society that has slavery, there are rules/laws/customs that deal with all aspects of it. How do these differ from place to place? Are slaves treated differently in Osiria than the would be in Qadira? Clearly there would be differences in how they are treated in Katapesh and Cheliax.

edit: It is funny that you should mention brothels... I was thinking that I have had more trouble at a PFS table with the "profession" of my courtesan PC than with the "profession" of my slave PC.

one thing I liked about Pirate's Promise is it actually talked about what happens after the slaves are liberated by the Eagle Knights. It points out that most slaves have either very specialized skills, or no skills at all. They also have no family, no support, and no resources. The Novel Andorans at least have a system of helping the freed slaves.

For my PCs that don't have an issue with slavery, they truly believe that by owning them, they teach them skills and a trade, and make their lives better.

I'm curious if anyone thinks about the logistics of the anti-slaver movement. It seems like it often is:
1. Kill all the slavers
2. Free all the slaves
3. ???
4. Feel good about ourselves.

Mayim (my Liberty's edge PC) has not dealt with slaves yet, but I can picture her spending as much gold to free a slave as my other PCs have buying them.

The Exchange 5/5

UndeadMitch wrote:
Guys, maybe it's time we just go ahead and put this thread out to pasture...

but then we would miss posts like Mr. Morris above. And I rather liked it... perhaps it will encourage some people to treat the slaves in stories more like people and less like "mission objectives".

Silver Crusade 5/5

nosig wrote:
UndeadMitch wrote:
Guys, maybe it's time we just go ahead and put this thread out to pasture...
but then we would miss posts like Mr. Morris above. And I rather liked it... perhaps it will encourage some people to treat the slaves in stories more like people and less like "mission objectives".

Is it worth having to sift through 200+ posts of you and Dave Setty going after each other in circles.

*Shakes Magic 8-Ball*

All signs point to no.


Matthew Morris wrote:
nosig wrote:
Matthew Morris wrote:
I will confess, in a society with brothels, devil worship, demon worship, followers of gods of assassins, and of course the entire D/s overtones of one of the recurring characters, that exploring the aspects of slavery disturbing people makes me... amused.

one of the aspects of Roman Slavery was that if a slave of a Roman Citizen was freed, he/she became a Roman Citizen. This was a big deal in a time when most of the population of an area were NOT Citizens (who had a bunch of Privileges/Rights that Non-Citizens did no). So, a question arises, what is the status of a freed slave?

In a society that has slavery, there are rules/laws/customs that deal with all aspects of it. How do these differ from place to place? Are slaves treated differently in Osiria than the would be in Qadira? Clearly there would be differences in how they are treated in Katapesh and Cheliax.

edit: It is funny that you should mention brothels... I was thinking that I have had more trouble at a PFS table with the "profession" of my courtesan PC than with the "profession" of my slave PC.

one thing I liked about Pirate's Promise is it actually talked about what happens after the slaves are liberated by the Eagle Knights. It points out that most slaves have either very specialized skills, or no skills at all. They also have no family, no support, and no resources. The Novel Andorans at least have a system of helping the freed slaves.

For my PCs that don't have an issue with slavery, they truly believe that by owning them, they teach them skills and a trade, and make their lives better.

I'm curious if anyone thinks about the logistics of the anti-slaver movement. It seems like it often is:
1. Kill all the slavers
2. Free all the slaves
3. ???
4. Feel good about ourselves.

Mayim (my Liberty's edge PC) has not dealt with slaves yet, but I can picture her spending as much gold to free a slave as my other PCs have buying them.

So what do you do with the slave that tries to escape? Let him go and hope he can take care of himself? Hunt him down and punish/torture him?

Yeah, how to prepare slaves for a free life is a question. Keeping them as slaves is not the answer.


I dunno. I'll make the argument that you can't have an actual conversation about what slavery means and does to those affected if everyone immediately agrees "slavery is badwrong". Besides, its occasionally good to remind yourself why slavery *is* negative, and a charged word.

Sir Peter Harrumph is actually a fun example, because he's *completely wrong*. His idealized viewpoint of "this is what slavery is like" is similar to how slavery was viewed by slaveowners in 1800s America, and is ultimately a flawed vision; regardless of how he acts and how much he may deny it, Cheliax is "rife" with those same abuses -- to the point where they are the norm rather than the exception. His vision of slavery is flawed and self-justifying, created in his mind to handle the cognitive dissonance of respecting and loving an ostensibly inferior creature far more than his wasteful, useless "noble" parents.

This is why he's LN. He believes in a system of morality and honor at odds with the reality of his homeland, and fails to recognize that this system is built off of injustice.

I'm not always certain that PFS is the appropriate place for a conversation on the morality of real-world issues, but I think it does provide an opportunity for players to engage with each other on the effects these types of things have on a fictional environment, and what the justifications and abuses within those environments would be. Moreover, I think this provides players with the opportunity to define for themselves *why* this particular thing is considered immoral -- and to work out for themselves the limits of any attempted justification for it.

Silver Crusade

Nimrandir wrote:
Gareth Silversong wrote:
Matthew Morris wrote:

Best use of a slave ever...

Buy one and give him to the paladin. Then when he frees the slave pat him on the should and tell him "Owning your first slave is the hardest. It gets easier after that."

And yes, the player consented to making his pally squirm. He thought it was hilarious.

Well, if you like being backhanded with the gauntlets still on... :P

I'm glad this bit happened to appear again, because I'd wanted to comment on it but was late to the thread. My first reaction to the thought of another PC doing this to my paladin was, "I don't really think Gram will be able to live with this. He very well may commit seppuku at the end of the scenario." I'm pretty sure that's not the character development that anyone would have been looking for.

Now that this topic has come up, and I have had some time to think on the situation, I have an appropriate response. Thanks, I guess?

However, I would be really curious how the stereotypical paladin with dumped Int and Wis would respond.

Having dumped neither, I couldn't tell you, but I know exactly what to do with slave-taking scum.

The Penumbral Accords:
He's both a paladin AND from Andoran. I'm going to run him through Penumbral Accords next chance I get and when the Q&A comes up in the briefing my only question is going to be "Lady Blakros, you do know slave-trading is only legal in Absalom on Misery Row, which your museum is not on, yes?" Then he's going to punch her in the face and after rescuing her victims go straight to the Council with the evidence and have her hanged. :p

Sovereign Court 5/5 RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Gareth Silversong wrote:


Having dumped neither, I couldn't tell you, but I know exactly what to do with slave-taking scum.

** spoiler omitted **

Penumbral accords:
well the cynic in the player (not his characters) would point out that the shadow plane is *not* Absalom. I'm sure their lawyers would try to weasel that with the museum straddling both planes, the actual slave trading did *not* take place in Absalom, per se... ;-)

Matthew Morris wrote:
Gareth Silversong wrote:


Having dumped neither, I couldn't tell you, but I know exactly what to do with slave-taking scum.

** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **

The greater cynic might point out that if a character is low enough in level to actually play that scenario they have almost zero chance of surviving long enough to see that plan through.


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UndeadMitch wrote:
Guys, maybe it's time we just go ahead and put this thread out to pasture...

I'll admit I never understand the desire to see threads locked or banned... all they do is pop up somewhere else under a different title.

There are a LOT of threads I have zero interest in and think have long run their course... and I stopped checking on them. So they're dead to ME at least...

Really, this thread doesn't seem near as offensive or antagonistic enough to justify shutting it down.


Dave Setty wrote:

So this thread's started up again.

So the "lol u mad anoran bro?" slave-owning PC types are one thing. Jerks gonna jerk, after all. I can't take them seriously. The problem I'm having, that bothers me more the more I think about it, is with the Shiny Happy Slave PC types.

I want to first say that I do not believe that any of this is the intent of the players in question. It is, however, the effect that results.

Slavery has /never/ not been awful. Anywhere it's existed, in any time it's existed. And trying to pretend that slavery isn't one of the worst crimes a human can commit has an ugly history that continues to this day.

Then, we have characters presenting "slavery" as a state that can be super wonderful, such that the slave would be 100% against freedom even if achieving such was completely in their grasp. And this is bad, because they're presenting a terrible terrible institution in a way far more benign than it has /ever/ been in real history. (Or - correct me if I'm wrong - any canonical place on Golarion. Though I'm well past in-character objections at this point.)

All this makes me extremely uncomfortable. It's as if, in the middle of a session, another player narrated his character's wife showing up, him telling her he's too busy/not in the mood, and then she drops a /dominate person/ and drags him off. And before you object to the analogy, realize that slavery has /always/, wherever and whenever it has existed, come with lots and lots of rape.

And I don't know what to do about it. I mean, "don't play with those characters", sure, but I go to lots of cons. Probably 8 this year. I GM at cons. So if I'm ready to run a table at Gen Con, and one of the players introduces their character as Jane the Knife or 8255 or whatever? It's a legal character, and I owe that player the game they paid for - to say nothing of the other 5 players who are here to have fun. But I can't just brush this off anymore. What do I do?

Ugh. I've resisted quitting PFS over much more severe, and personal, BS,...

I still say it depends on what your definition of 'slavery' is. Just the whole 'I have the power, therefore you do what I say...' is such a WIDE and vague brush that many MANY things get painted with it.

I wholeheartedly agree that the typical American slave scenario is horrible and despicable. What about indentured servants? They sold themselves... What about Drafted servicemen? If they run they're executed for treason or cowardice? What about household servants that are 'taken care of' but still follow orders? Cohorts? Followers?

What about my paladin's squire? He does the manual labor of taking care of the horse and polishing armor.. Paladin pays his way for everything. Can he quit? Sure... if we're at home. But if he decides to take off in the middle of another kingdom, that Paladin promised his mother that he'd take care of him... The boy is his responsibility.

"Then, we have characters presenting "slavery" as a state that can be super wonderful, such that the slave would be 100% against freedom even if achieving such was completely in their grasp."

The human mind is a weird thing... Most often the worst chains are the ones we have in our own brain. We see ourselves trapped in whatever situation we're in, and are generally afraid to see what's out there. There have been NUMEROUS quotes from prositutes that they can't quit... and wouldn't if they could. They were nice things... make a lot more then they would at McDonalds... Sure they answer to some other guy who sets the rules... but it works for them...

Long time prisoners with their 'fear of freedom' who are out on parole and commit a crime just to get back in prison where things are familiar and comfortable...

Terrible mentality... but it IS out there...

But with a brush that wide... it's troubling to say EVERY character in ANY way connected with another more powerful character who tells them what to do... is the worst that humanity has to offer and will inevitably devolve into murder and rape...

So far in our games, the closest we've ever come is one character was an indentured servant who ran away, and a Paladin with a Squire. Ohhhh and a cohort priest who tags along... but he was an npc and stays in the background...

Nobody had a problem with these characters. If someone wanted to play a traditional plantation owner who beat and raped his property.... you can best believe they wouldn't be playing with us anymore.... So yeah, i'm a believer that there are 'acceptable' ways to approach certain subjects, and completely unacceptable ways.


There's a hell of a difference between "EVERY character in ANY way connected with another more powerful character who tells them what to do" and property. Even milder forms of slavery.

Even indentured servants knew it would end and generally had more legal protections than slaves did.

Admittedly that difference does get narrower in older and more brutal societies - serfdom isn't far from milder slavery in many ways. In some despotic states everyone is officially the ruler's property.
In such cases though, the actual slaves in those societies are even worse off. More restricted at least, even if some elite slaves did live in better conditions.

In other words, no ones using a brush as wide as you pretend or as narrow as only American chattel slavery.

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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Which brings up another disturbing and yet somewhat tangential point...

It seems that a significant portion of Society players (couldn't say majority or minority, though?) revel in the concept of 'murderhobo'.

How is it that such a disturbing concept as *that* is exalted by some, but a discussion on what slavery is about and how it is dealt with at a table is treated as radioactive?

Apologies in advance to the deathvagrant crowd, I am trying to learn the boundaries here.


Wei Ji the Learner wrote:


Which brings up another disturbing and yet somewhat tangential point...

It seems that a significant portion of Society players (couldn't say majority or minority, though?) revel in the concept of 'murderhobo'.

How is it that such a disturbing concept as *that* is exalted by some, but a discussion on what slavery is about and how it is dealt with at a table is treated as radioactive?

Apologies in advance to the deathvagrant crowd, I am trying to learn the boundaries here.

Murderhoboes are, by definition, individuals. And yeah, bringing death to innocents is an evil act and doing so regularly isn't compatible with a non-evil alignment, and therefore with PFS.

Slavery, on the other hand, isn't an individual act. It's a system, that defines thousands of people as mere chattel. The two aren't comparable.

The Exchange 5/5

I actually have more problems with mind-control Magic than with slavery. I've been thinking of running an Andoran with a Crusade against this sort of thing.

charms, command, unnatural lust, control spells maybe even summon spells

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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
nosig wrote:

I actually have more problems with mind-control Magic than with slavery. I've been thinking of running an Andoran with a Crusade against this sort of thing.

charms, command, unnatural lust, control spells maybe even summon spells

First Steps:
When the imp mentioned it was effectively enslaved, suddenly BAM, my Liberty's Edge guy was on board with 'Okay, it sucks, let's try to keep it from happening to anyone else, kay' (paraphrased). Made it both easier and harder to complete the mission, but also highlighted the fact that even 'evil' beings can be oppressed.
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