On the conjuration front, it was recently pointed out to me on another thread that Augment Summoning works with SLA's that replicate Summon Monster spells. So a Sha'ir with a Conjuration Implement could use this feat with Servitor as well as with their Summon Monster (elemental) spells.
You coudln't no.
Guantlet enchantments only work when your using it. i.e. when your punching with it. Doesn't work with the free touch attack from shocking grasp.
You'd have to cast shocking grasp and hold the charge (taking two rounds) or swift action cast shocking grasp.
Sadly guantlets or AOMF won't buff up touch attacks. The only item I know of that buffs touch attacks is the deliquisent glvoes which add 1d6 acid damage to touch attacks.
NOTE
this actually his my own occultist VMC magus build.
With spell strike youcan shocking grasp punch with the conductive riders.I was doing it with a rapier just for the crit fun (inspired blade dip)
with the VMC magus, I picked up Pool Strike as well. Gives me more I can spell strike with and conductive if I wanted to or ran out of the other stuff.I had also thought about using a dagger with this instead of a rapier (I would lose out on Int panache though).
If I did that. I could knife in close ranged spell striking with it. Or I could throw it using conductive with the evocation power.So I could conductive close or far, dex to hit, dex to damage. Just have to make sure I don't lose my weapon haha. Which really just requires me to have called on it; since my build wasn't big on iteratives (spell strike and all) and shot on the run or fly by attack. (fly by being better since..standard action = spell strike)
Add in spell storing on your weapon and you can have one fun on a bun opening blow.
Granted I use tome eater so I have don't get as many options. Hence I went with the rapier plan. if I was going with the knife I would not chose tome eater I think. simply because having 3 schools until level 11? or 10? is pretty rough. Since I love divination (spells and school) and transmutaiton (just too good). So I'd have to chose evo or necro.
Necro being the one I think I'd prefer. but I'd use that feat that means I can use the abilities without storing points in it. Since the school focus doesn't help me much at all.
'Edit:...
RAI, I think you are probably right. I just couldn't find anything to really get a hard Yes or no answer. Closest thing I could find was the FAQ on Defending Weapon Enhancements:
"Unless otherwise specified, you have to use a magic item in the manner it is designed (use a weapon to make attacks, wear a shield on your arm so you can defend with it, and so on) to gain its benefits.
Therefore, if you don't make an attack roll with a defending weapon on your turn, you don't gain its defensive benefit."
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9o3r
(I always mess up the quote script on this board so I stopped trying)
The Conductive weapon enhancement is vague and only requires that you use similar ranges: Touch for Touch, Ranged for Ranged Touch. SO nothing of importance in there.
I would argue that the free touch attack you get by use of the spell would qualify for use of the item. You are reaching out with your hand (which has the conductive property) to touch someone, thus conducting your SLA (which would be handled via a touch attack normally. Probably wishful thinking but I don't think I am totally over reaching at least.
I really like the Rapier/Inspired blade idea, especially for the increased crits...I was mostly looking to avoid any magus only due to one in the party already.
Witch Hair Hex: I feel like I remember a Nerf via Faq against it recently? I dont remember specifically what the nerf was at the moment but I would double check on that. It might be totally unrelated.
Since Half elf seems to be a pretty decent Race for the occultist (Able to take the Elven 1/2 bonus focus racial), the free skill focus can go towards Eldritch Heritage/Improved Eldritch Heritage (Aberrant) for that extra range touch attacks + Lunging spell strike.
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*oversight pointed out*
Ok, updated/corrected [I just KNEW someone would find a goof once it was too late to edit, sorry]
lvl 1
abjuration - aegis, loci sentry, planar ward
conjuration - conjure implements, mind steed
divination - future gaze, powerful connection, watchful eye
enchantment - inspired assult, mental discord, obey
evocation - light matrix, radiance, shape mastery
illusion - cloak image, color beam
necromancy - necromantic servant, soulbound puppet
transmutation - philosophers touch, size alteration, sudden speed
lvl 3
abjuration - energy sheild
conjuration - flesh mend, psycic fog
divination - danger sight
enchantment - mind slumber
illusion - unseen
necromancy - flesh rot, spirit shroud
lvl 5
abjuration - unraveling
conjuration - purge corruption
divination - mind's eye
enchantment - forced alliance
evocation - energy blast
illusion - mirage
necromancy - psycic curse
transmutation - quickness
lvl 7
conjuration - side step
divination - object seer
enchantment - binding pattern
evocation - energy ward
illusion - masquerade
necromancy - pain wave
Transmutation - Mind Over Gravity
lvl 9
evocation - wall of power
illusion - shadow beast
transmutation - telekinetic mastery
lvl 11
abjuration - globe of negation
that's why i said a "few" points.
early on, you can rely on the servitor, later on on side step, 3-5 points should last you a day, depending on how trigger happy you are with side step
the skeleton is surely nice, although imo it is for a completly different build.
a caster/support occultist would certainly benefit a lot more from it compared to a melee, since he could spend a few points into necromancy focuses
Necromancy feels much more build-around to me (and better if you do), but I like conjuration better as a third+ implement, one you are not planing to put much focus in, only transfer some into at the last minute in a pinch. Having access to healing and teleportation effects is something I do not want to miss, and with Purge Corruption you can get Neutralize Poison earlier than any class but Druid, with Remove Disease thrown in for free. I doubt I would allocate any focus for it, but if I needed it, I would gladly steal 2 points from a different implement with shift focus to have it.
Also, while the skeleton will win in a fight, I have lost track of how often I have summoned up an earth elemental just for earth glide shenanigans, and the other summons also have utility purposes beyond direct combat.
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Alrighty so I'm going to throw two builds down. Then I want to go over the abilities we've been flat out ignoring (magic circles and some such).
Race: Elf or Half Elf with Elf FCB
1 Extra Mental Focus
3 Improved Initiative
5 Extra Focus Power (Soulbound Puppet)
7 Extra Focus Power (Binding Pattern)
9 Spell Focus (Necromancy)
11 Spell Penetration
13 Persistent Spell
15 Greater Spell Focus (Necromancy)
17 Lunging Spell Touch
19 Greater Spell Penetration
Focus Powers
1 Necromantic Servant
3 Mind Slumber
5 Psychic Curse
7 Pain Wave
9 Psychic Fog
11 Mental Discord
13 Side Step
15 Globe of Negation
17 Planar Ward
19 Unraveling
Implements
1 Necromancy
1 Enchantment
2 Conjuration
6 Necromancy
10 Enchantment
14 Abjuration
18 Necromancy
Traits:
Pragamatic Activator
Focus Allotment*
1st Level(7): Necromancy: 4pts. Enchantment:3pts.
2nd Level(9): Necromancy: 5pts. Enchantment: 4pts.
6th Level(15): Necromancy: 8pts. Enchantment: 7pts.
10th level(23): Necromancy: 12pts. Enchantment: 8pts. Conjuration: 3pts.
14th Level(29): Necromancy: 10pts. Enchantment: 8pts. Conjuration: 3pts. Abjuration: 8pts.
18th Level(35): Necromancy: 12pts. Enchantment: 8pts. Conjuration: 3pts. Abjuration: 12pts.
*Assuming the mental focus estimations above starting with 18int rather than 15.
Building this guy; I'm thinking Half Elves with the Elf FCB are really the way to go for a lot of builds. You can get so much focus early on and that can power so many abilities and keep topped up more than a couple implements. I think my go to combat build form now on will be half elf.
Soulbound puppet will be invaluable in delivering those touch attack curses and is another very versatile tool in the box since you can pick the shape of your familiar every time it pops out. Necormantic servant is a good body to chuck out there in the early levels while you set up your debuffs.
Overall you get some rather strong stuff here. Solid fog, a fair list of spells to throw out there. Careful spell selection can take you a really long way.
What's really notable is the way focus abilities scale. Most of your powers will stay relevant throughout your whole career. Right up until you come against immunity to mind affects. But by then you have an army of the dead, several ways to deliver crippling debuffs, some battlefield control, and a really high UMD.
Right now this is my favorite build, especially going into late game with the Abjuration pick for the Globe of Negation pick. Gives me a chance to shut down full casters between that and unraveling.
So now we get on to Support. This one I was hesitant on until now. Since the powers themselves didn't really trigger in me anything but mild disdain. I hold support to a rather high standard and I've seen groups made or broken by the quality of the numbers and action advantage thrown around.
Race: Elf or Half Elf with Elf FCB
1 Extra Mental Focus
3 Implement Focus (Transmutation)
5 Combat Reflexes
7 Power Attack
9 Implement Focus (Illusion)
11 Extend Spell
13 Improved Initiative
15 Implement Focus (Divination)
17 (OPEN)
19 (OPEN)
Focus Powers
1 Sudden Speed
3 Size Alteration
5 Mirage
7 Danger Sight
9 Mind Over Gravity
11 Shadow Beast
13 Telekinetic Mastery
15 Globe of Negation
17 (OPEN)
19 (OPEN)
Traits:
Transmuter
Implements
1 Transmutation
1 Illusion
2 Transmutation
6 Divination
10 Illusion
14 Abjuration
18 Transmutation
Focus Allotment*
1st Level(7): Transmutation: 4pts. Illusion: 3pts.
2nd Level(9): Transmutation: 5pts. Illusion: 4pts
6th Level(15): Transmutation 1: 6pts. Transmutation 2: 6pts. Illusion: 1pts. Divination: 2pts.
10th level(23): Trans1: 6pts. Trans2: 6pts. Illusion: 10pts. Divination: 1pts.
14th Level(29): Trans1: 9pts. Trans2: 9pts. Illusion, Divination or Abjuration: 10pts. Spare: 1pt.
18th Level(35): Trans1: 9pts. Trans2: 9pts. Illusion, Divination or Abjuration: 10pts. Spare: 1pt.
*Assuming the mental focus estimations above starting with 18int rather than 15.
So, support is complicated.
To make it work at its best it's kind of like playing a witch. You have to be around 30ft. of your support target or a lot of your abilities click off/go away if you handed them your implement. Extend resonant power sounds okay. But half benefit at the same range as a full benefit hand off is not good enough for me.I'd rather have solid mobility to make sure I stay near my buddy.
So, we're playing flank buddy and partner in crime to our barbarian/paladin/ranger/slayer friend.
Illusion seems like an odd choice over enchantment or conjuration. But, looking at the spell lists and base powers I decided the potential for an indefinite length invisibility (until the bearer attacks) has a lot more potential utility than flat bonuses elsewhere.
It's pretty flexible honestly. Transmutation being the biggest set of buffs depending on your group you could find more use out of conjuration or enchantment.
You can move the implement schools to taste. Again the late game abjuration is really useful.
I would not hand out my implements out to more than one person. So choose wisely.
You can legacy weapon other people's weapons, another massive advantage over arcane pool if you care about such things, you can also Aegis if you'd like to grab that as well for the late game.
The trick to illusion, and the reason I picked it, is that you can use Mirage to make some illusionary cover, or hand off your implement to grant a nigh infinite duration miss chance/invisibility to a party member.
As for the rest of you you have some good spells to pick and you can protect your chosen partner with a large threatened area.
You can get conjuration and it does have some good spells in it. But imo you can live fine without those things. The full caster in the group is probably drowning in them
This support build could be made better. I like the flexibility that illusion gets me to support more than one type of character but divination may work out for use better since we can use it to make attacks more reliably.
So, I went back and took a look at the other abilities we've kind of ignored due to having to deal with the rubiks cube that is implements and focuses.
Object Reading: This can actually be rather useful. And kind of more work for the GM. This can be good or bad since they have to think about what piece of info to give you. But I rather like how this can give the GM a way to toss in plot hooks, useful bits of info and what not.
Shift Focus: I hate that this kills your resonant powers. Right now I kind of value them highly.
There is one use for this though. If you have a conjuration implement and you're about to rest anyway dump all your remaining focus into conjuration and use it on the healing power. Good way to dump it before nap time.
Aurasight: A more efficient detect alignment off the inquisitor.
Magic Circles: That this takes one minute to make is rather rough. But it's worth having since you can essentially sleep or camp in it have a way to defend yourself.
Outside Contact: Neat. Kidn of like other divination effects its hit or miss.
Binding circles: Really cool honestly. A bit scooby-dooesque in the way you have to set it up to be effective (anything crossing the barrier breaks it, including other enemies). It's a nice surprise if done right.
Fast Circles: Comes way way late for me. I think by this point I could be doing so many better things than drawing circles and hoping people stumble into them.
Anyway, I think I'm done delving into the occultist for now. I hope I at least got enough that there is a base to work from so I look forward to seeing where people take it the next time I give one a shot. :)
Alternatively you could dedicate one set to spells you'll use all the time and the other to utility/situational spells.
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A slight deviation from the main topic but still connected, how would you rate the Sha'irs ability to turn their tiny Jinn into not so tiny Jinn? I think it sounds awesome, but I'm concerned with basically putting the equivalent of your spell book into combat.
I'm terrible at theorycrafting, but I have been watching this thread closely and you folk have been assisting me a lot. I want to build a PFS Occultist in the near future (Either vanilla or Sha'ir). Keep up the good work. :D
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I'm trying to parse the Necromantic Bond ability of the Necroccultist to determine if the archetype is anything more than a trap.
At 1st level, a necroccultist
gains access to only the necromancy school of implements.
He must select necromancy for his implement mastery.
Each time he gains an occultist level, a necroccultist can
add one necromancy spell from the wizard spell list to
his occultist spell list and his list of spells known. The
necroccultist can’t choose a spell of a higher level than
he is able to cast, and he adds the spell at the same spell
level it appears on the wizard spell list. At 14th level,
he doesn’t gain an additional school of implements.
Instead, at 14th level, the DCs of saving throws to resist a
necroccultist’s necromancy spells and necromancy focus powers increase by 2. This ability alters implements and implement mastery.
Reading 1: You can only select necromancy implements ever and receive only 1 implement at level 1.
Reading 2: You can only select a single necromancy implement at level 1, but you can select other school implements at 2+.Reading 3: You must select 2 necromancy implements at level 1, but you can select other school implements at 2+.
If Reading 1 is correct, you rapidly run out of spells to select by level 10. You've already tapped out all knacks by level 6 and level 1 spells are not that far behind, particularly once you include the Wizard stuff.
If Reading 2 is correct, you get a slightly reduced initial selection, but you significantly gain over time due to the extra necromancy spells known. This is the reading I lean towards.
If Reading 3 is correct, you pretty much lose nothing on the spell front up front, but have a significant gain in spells known over time.
Both 2 and 3 result in very playable characters. I would not be interested in reading 1, however.
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Upon first reading, I agreed with your first reading. Upon second and subsequent readings I agree with your 2nd reading.
Only 1 implement at level 1 and it has to be Necromancy but can take other implement schools later (except you don't get one at 14th - you have pseudo picked necromancy I guess but since you already have access to tonnes of spells it gives them buffs instead of new spells)
It doesn't really say if the additional spells learnt from Necromantic Bond are tied to your Necromantic implement. It seems like something which should have been clarified.
Am I right in assuming that the Calming armor special ability would be of use to any psychic spell caster? For the price of a +1 bonus, you gain the ability to surpress any emotion effects for up to ten rounds / day as a swift action (It says a DC 15 Will save negates it, but given that it applies to everyone within 5 feet of the wearer, the wearer should be able to include himself in the effects and purposefully fail the saving throw..)
Am I right in assuming that the Calming armor special ability would be of use to any psychic spell caster? For the price of a +1 bonus, you gain the ability to surpress any emotion effects for up to ten rounds / day as a swift action (It says a DC 15 Will save negates it, but given that it applies to everyone within 5 feet of the wearer, the wearer should be able to include himself in the effects and purposefully fail the saving throw..)
Wow, that writing is perfect for psychic casters of all stripes. Sad I missed that when I put together my GM credit baby psychic.
HAte to be the one to pop the bubble but.
It's relatively clear it doesn't work that way. It does specify that the aura is around the character with a pretty convincing feel that the aura is meant as a debuff to enemies.
If you find a GM willing to go through with it, great. But probably not PFS.
Does Expanded Arcana work with Occultist? It seems like it should RAW.
Seems useful especially for the Battle Host Im planning who barely has any spells known anyway.
The Occultist does seem to meet the prerequisites. That's a very clever option.
BUMP
Just bumping to say I am trying to wrap my head around all that you guys/gals have posted in this thread. Thanks for all of the info and research!
:)
This class seems like fun at first glance (which is all I've had time for) but without time for heavy, focused reading quickly became confusing due to ALL of the options and choices. So, again, thanks for helping clear some of this up.
My question- This class seems like it would make a very Dresden Files-esque caster. While the main character continuously refers to himself as 'specialized & limited' in his abilities, (My first guess was the main character would be easily reflected in the Keneticist class) after perusing this thread I'm not so sure that he isn't a 'generalist' Occultist.
Is anyone examining this class familiar enough with Dresden Files to say if it would make a Dresden-style magic user with it? The class even has magic circles, which has played a major part in several of the novels.
Just curious, like most of us I like playing characters that resemble my favorite characters form books and movies. :)
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Yes, Occultist is the best class for a Dresden-style wizard.
While an occultist isn't as specialized as a kineticist, they are more specialized than a typical PF wizard or sorcerer in that they draw from a limited number of schools of magic and within those schools have a very limited number of spells known (plus a limited number of focus powers). However, thanks to how implements and invested focus works, they also tend to have the "benefits from careful planning and preparation" aspect.
The implements are thematically very similar to the focus objects Dresden-wizards have, and in some cases there are strong mechanical similarities. The evocation implement is basically a blasting rod, the abjuration implement works similarly to a shield bracelet, the illusion implement could work like a certain character's wands. The magic circles as you noted are also very similar.
I think the Third Eye feat works pretty well for representing The Sight.
If you're thinking of making Harry Dresden in particular, your first implements should probably be among Abjuration, Evocation, and Divination. There's at least one thread already discussing such a build.
Also check out psychic duels if you're interesting in representing something like
Thanks Weirdo,
(Yes, I typed that with a straight face.) ;)
I had thought so, but as mentioned haven't been over the class nearly enough to be sure. It was the implements that caught my attention and made me think of it in the first place.
Appreciate the link!
Happy weekend!