Handy dandy link for those who aren't familiar with Gestalt rules.
So, I've got an upcoming gestalt game, and I'm at something of a loss for how I want to build my character.
I know I'm going with a Human Barbarian, but I'm really stumped for the what to do for my second class. Well, not so much stumped as coming up with too many conflicting ideas to really narrow things down.
We're starting off at level 6. Aside from the obvious Barbarian goodies (taking power attack, moving down the superstition and Beast Totem Rage Power lines) I'm pretty open to considering just about any kind of build. I'm currently leaning towards Alchemist since a lot of the discoveries mesh well with a melee character and extracts will bump up my utility, and unless I'm not getting the rules I could still use extracts while raging.
For reference, the other two members of the party are:
Fighter/Ranger (Archery/Switch Hitter Build)
Sorcerer/Oracle (Gotta love full divine and arcane spellcasting off the same casting stat).
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I do not know but is multiclassing allowed for the second class ?
4 Rogue(Thug/Scout)/X Alchemist (Vivisectionist)
This way you can charge and get a hell lot of sneak attack on every charge. Get your self a Rhino Hide/the new charging belt from UE and a Greataxe and you damage will sky rock ;) and you still get some Alchemist goddies + The 3 Level Thug ability to make a enemy Sickened for a few rounds can help alot....
Breiti
If you go with a half orc, you might enjoy and Orc bloodline Sorcerer. Although if you do, get Optimistic Gambler for some really nifty power boosts.
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You should be a fighter! No, really. A barbarian/fighter is as close to sorc/oracle as melee gestalt is going to get. Barbarians have hit points and DPR. Fighters have accuracy and versatility. Put them together and you're pretty alright at what you do.
From taking fighter as a second class, you get:
11 bonus feats
Weapon Training: More accuracy, more damage.
Access to Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization, Critical Mastery, and Disruptive/Spellbreaker at all times.
Heavy armor proficiency and increased Damage Reduction at level 19!
Let me contend something else. You actually get to be more barbarian if you take fighter. My logic here is that with 11 bonus feats, you can take the feats that are necessary for your desired build and be more free to spend your actual level-up feats on Extra Rage Power, giving you more options as a barbarian.
Now, there are a lot of options for barbarians here, so the question is, which archetype best suits a barbarian?
I've seen some builds around here that like Unbreakable, since you get Endurance and Diehard for free at level 1, which softens the prerequisites for Stalwart and Improved Stalwart, two feats that are fantastic for a Come and Get Me Invulnerable Rager barbarian.
However, there's also the Two-Handed Fighter archetype, which gives you things like Overhand Chop, Backswing, and Devastating Blow. It's...kind of hard to not love that stuff. I mean, you're a barbarian. If you gestalt, it should be to get moar damage, and I think Two-Handed Fighter is the only way you could possibly add damage to a barbarian.
A one-level dip into alchemist on your fighter side will also get you mutagens, for more Strength.
If you go with a half orc, you might enjoy and Orc bloodline Sorcerer. Although if you do, get Optimistic Gambler for some really nifty power boosts.You don't need to be a half-orc to select the orc bloodline.
Resisting sarcasm...
That's right. Some people make decisions based on flavor instead of what is possible, and I thought that a half orc gestalt sorcerer barbarian would be more cool than say, a gnome. It's all suggestions here though.
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You should be a Barbarian/Archer(Fighter Archetype), and be a switch hitter between giant weapons and bows. Make sure to grab Quick Draw, you have the feats for it.
At level 6 you will be able to throw Spell Sunders out through your bow.
I don't need to tell you why that's hilarious, do I?
I second TOZ. Barbarian/Rogue not only gives you all those tasty skillpoints, but also Sneak Attack. Your damage jumps from 'stupid high' to 'obscene' everytime you flank something.
Barbarian, the raging drunk archtype and Alchemist worked pretty well in our last game. Was a pretty funny concept that was really nasty once mutagens, raging and buff spells took effect. Dude got something like 20 hit points per level and even though he went with sharpened chair legs for weapons and whatever else he could pick up in a drunken rage, he dealt insane amounts of damage, I can only shudder of the thought of what a combat optimized rager might do in similar circumstances.
Also, I do not suggest doubling up on the fighter classes. Gestalt's power all comes from versatility. You go Barb/Ftr and you are adding some more damage and maybe better armor, but that is it. Go with something that can add to the versatility of a character such as a skill monkey or spellcaster. For flavor, I suggest the Barb/Bard (skald), Barb/Sorc, Barb/Oracle (ancestor myster), Barb/Summoner (great when you get the share rage power and have a herd of summons) or again the Barb/Alchemist. Otherwise its really going to such for you once all the other gestalt characters are pulling out the spells to deal with the crazy obstacles one should have to deal with in a Gestalt game, and you are left sitting their holding your sword looking for something to swing at.
I agree with @NeoSeraphi! 2H Fighter Archetype/Invulnerable Rager would make you a devastatingly effective melee fighter. You'd get all the goodies from BOTH classes, those extra feats to add in even more rage powers and hit like a veritable mack truck with your two-handed weapon. Remember that 2H fighter also gets GREATER POWER ATTACK for 100% damage boost instead of 50% boost when power attacking. This combined with your higher raging will make you very powerful indeed.
I also liked @TriOmegaZero's idea with the Barbarian/Rogue because if you could sneak attack things with a big ole sword when flanking that'd be pretty sweet along with the added bonuses to the skills that Rogues get.
I don't care for the bard suggestion because you wouldn't be able to do your performances while raging.
Barb/Martial artist could work if you wanted to go with more hand-to-hand combat and really get up in the grill of your enemies.
I not sure if multi-classing is allowed with gestalts. I don't think so, but I could be wrong. The whole purpose of them is to have 2 full classes combined not 1/3 + 1/3 + 1/3 + 1, it kind of defeats the purpose of having true multi-classed character, at least that's how I'd rule it if I was GM'ing the game, but it's obviously up to your DM how he/she wants to run it.
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I not sure if multi-classing is allowed with gestalts. I don't think so, but I could be wrong.
It is allowed.
A gestalt character follows a similar procedure when he attains 2nd and subsequent levels. Each time he gains a new level, he chooses two classes, takes the best aspects of each, and applies them to his characteristics.
I do not recommend it however. Keeping track of too many classes at once on a character sheet is a headache I personally would not want to deal with. I think being able to combine two separate classes into one is strength enough. Cherry-picking a class here and there is too much work on both sides of the screen.
Barbarian//Druid. Focus on being a melee Druid, so any spellcasting you're likely to do will be precombat, and if you need to you can always take moment of clarity to allow for a spell here or there. Turn into one of the animals that gets like 5 attacks and pounce, rage, power attack. Plus, how awesome is the visual of a raging dinosaur or big cat?
If you're going to have a decent dex/wis, you could go Barbarian/Martial Artist Monk. If you do that, then at 5th level you're immune to Fatigue. Plus all the other goodies a Monk gets, including MUCH more enhanced movement over what the barbarian gets. You do lose AC though.
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Can you gestalt two different archetypes of barbarian?
I'd go for Barbarian/Inquisitor. Adding the judgments onto such a combat-capable class can be scary indeed, especially when you're adding Bane into the mix. Plus the Intimidate and Initiative bonuses, and the self-buffing spells (cast before you rage ofc) could be a fearsome sight indeed!
A player in our upcoming Skull & Shackles AP has made an Orc Barbarian/Witch Doctor gestalt....seems like a decent build.
If you are ok with being evil, a barbarian/antipalidin can be a really good combination. Superstition, human favoured bonuses, unholy resiliance should make you effectivly immune to spells.
Barbarian/summoner could be another really powerful combination as you can make your mount gain all the benifits of your rage, just dosent jive well with the spellcasting aspect.
The only problem with the barbarian/witch doctor is how did he cast his hexes? can you cast hexes while raging?
Invulnerable Rager Barbarian // Vivisectionist Beastmorph Alchemist.
The best gestalts are usally martial//caster, but barb can't cast while raging, presenting a problem. Fortunately, extracts are drunk like potions, not cast, so they work just fine! Enjoy super buffed strength, sneak attack, and eventually pounce (freeing up your barbarian totoem powers for something else if you want instead of the Beast line).
Biggest weaknesses will be multiple ability dependence, poor will saves, sort of low AC, and limited to no ability to take out large groups.
Hmm...the Witch Doctor suggestion is nice, too. Any hex that is Ex or Su should be usable during rage, only the spell-like ones require concentration. Shame you can't use the rage-buffed con score to boost save DCs, though.
The one thing that makes me a bit leery of going for the rogue is that getting flanking might be tricky to pull off with only two other PCs in the party. I could try to pick up Shatter Defenses so I could generate my own sneak attacks, but that would require grabbing 3-4 feats (3 for Shatter Defenses and its pre-reqs, plus I would probably want Cornugon Smash to save on action economy).
Fighter/Barbarian kinda surprised me with how lethal it is. I guess 3.5 legacy of being a bad gestalt combo made me overlook how Pathfinder changed the equation. Being able to drop almost all of my general feats into Extra Rage Power would be nice (Sadly, Raging Vitality and the like are not combat feats). However, while it sends my melee damage through the roof it doesn't really add much in the way of versatility.
Have to admit, Barbarian/Druid has some interesting potential. Who wouldn't love starting every combat with "I turn into a T-Rex. A very angry T-Rex."
One possibility that just occurred to me: Barbarian/Cavalier. That would make for the supreme master of RAGELANCEPOUNCE.
Another dark horse optionthat's come up is using something from Dreamscarred's Psionics material. Other third party stuff is out, but since our DM was a huge fan of psionics in 3.5 he made an exception. Going Soulknife or Psychic Warrior leads to some fun possibilities.
Overall though, I'm probably leaning towards Barbarian/Alchemist or Barbarian/Inquisitor. The nice thing about 2/3 casters, they don't really add much MAD. I could easily get by with a 12 in Int/Wis and make up for the rest of it with headbands later.
The Alchemist lets me use extracts while raging and add mutagen on top of rage. That's not to mention several discoveries that are made for melee fighters (Get Heavy Fortification for three discoveries) and sneak attack combined with easy methods of getting your sneak attack off without a flanking buddy (imp. Invis extract) or the ability to make your own flank buddy by going preservationist.
Inquisitor offers the nice 1-2 punch of Bane and Judgement, and 6 + Int mod skills along with some fun utility options. Stalwart is also a very nice class ability when combined with my insanely high saves; getting evasion for Fort and Will saves is nice. Not to mention the joys of combining Divine battle-buffs with a full BAB class, because the Barbarian really needs Divine Favor and Righteous Fury on top of all his other bonuses.
Summoner ... yeah, that's scary. Either ride my Eidolon and let it rage-pounce with me, or go Synthesist and become an unholy engine of destruction.
Bard is great, but since I played a bard in my last campaign...
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If your primary choice was barbarian, I can't see how you wanted to be very versatile in the first place.
RAGELANCEPOUNCE doesn't work. The lance has been errata'd to clarify that the bonus damage from it (as well as from Spirited Charge) only applies to the first attack at the end of a charge (even if that attack misses).
Alchemist is nice. You can even drink extracts while you rage, since you're not casting spells upon yourself. However, what's important to note is that if you get the Superstition rage power, you will be forced to make saves against your own extracts (It's not exactly RAW, because the alchemist isn't exactly a spellcaster, but if I was your DM, I'd make you do it). Among others, enlarge person has a FortNegates line, so I don't know how that would work out for you.
Inquisitor is good. Bane is nice and Judgment is brutal. If you go inquisitor/barbarian, I strongly strongly encourage you to switch to Dwarf as your race. You get some nice boosts to Wis and Con (what barbarian doesn't like Con?) and more importantly, you get amazing favored class option that allows you to advance your inquisitor levels by +1/2 for one type of judgment. You choose the Destruction one, obviously, and rather than having a +6 bonus to damage rolls at 19th level, you have a +11 bonus to damage rolls at 20th level (effective level of 30 for your inquisitor).
Also, when you rage as an inquisitor, choose the Healing judgment. Get fast healing and then watch your enemies cower in fear and confusion as your wounds close back up while you howl with fury.
With Stern Gaze, I would strongly suggest maximizing Intimidate and picking up the Intimidating Glare and Terrifying Howl rage powers. Ex Fear is nothing to laugh at.
Still, though, my vote is for Fighter/Barbarian. Take Raging Vitality as your 1st level feat, since you don't qualify for Extra Rage Power until 3rd anyway. If you take Improved Stalwart, Improved Damage Reduction 3 times (easy with all your Extra Rage Powers) and Invulnerable Rager, your total DR will be DR 30/- at level 20. Let me show you how:
DR 10/- from Invulnerable Rager (DR 20/- against nonlethal damage)
DR 10/- from Improved Stalwart
DR 5/- from Armor Mastery
DR 3/- from Adamantine Heavy Armor
DR 3/- from Improved Damage Reduction.
Total of DR 31/- while raging, DR 28/- when not raging. Seems legit. Build a Come and Get Me barbarian and stop caring about anything.
Barbarian/Rogue is an excellent idea. conan
as is Barbarian/Ranger to ignore prerequisites on TWF and be kind of conany as well or be a switch hitter too
Barbarian/Bard; a skald who uses performance to augment his rage amd incite his companions
Barbarian/Fighter a switch hitter who deals obscene levels of damage through rage, weapon training, specialization, pounce, and gloves of dueling. while having obscenely high save bonuses and slightly better AC (although still lousy)
Barbarian/Samurai you get a free mount, and you have an excuse to ragelancepounce. with DM permission, you can have a Roc or Dire bat mount.
Barbarian/Beastmorph Vivisectionist; you drink/inject your spells, not cast them. it's no different than using potions. make all your drugs injection based and watch other party members freak out when you stick several needles into your arm.
I also think barbarian/fighter would be fun. Don't we all want more feats? But feats is all you gain. With the rogue combo, you increase saves and skill points, and then there's class features. And, I might add, way more fun.
Barbarian/Rogue, awesome. Just make sure you suggest to your Ranger friend to take a wolf companion (and the Boon Companion feat) so that if he decides he wants to go all archer in a fight, you still have a flanking buddy for fistfuls of d6's, sorcerer summons will also do the trick.
I was just thinking about this yesterday.
Mix a Come and Get Me Barbarian with Fighter (Aldori Swordlord). At 12th level, CaGM mixed with the AS's Counterattack ability would allow you to make two AoOs against any creature that hits you.
Choosing the Urban Barbarian archetype would allow you to boost your Dex for more AoOs and increase your AC. Throw in Improved Unarmed Strike and Crane Style and you've got a CaGM Barbarian whose AC isn't the worst thing in the world, while taking no penalty to fight defensively.
1/2 orc barbarian/Scarred witch from the Advanced Race Guide for Orcs
Con synergy, full casting, hexs are suprenatural abilities so they can be used in armor, wicked lookin' mask, ritualized scarring all over the body for an intimidating look.
Take it for the strong Will saves and the Hexs, and focus on 'non-combat' utility or buff spells, maybe make your primary armor choice an armored coat, so you can buff up and immediately get armored on 1st round of battle.
RAGELANCEPOUNCE doesn't work.Yes it does, it just doesn't work as well as before. You still get a huge amount of damage, and if you're missing on the first attack (the one that gets the bonus damage) you're either rolling a one or getting screwed by miss chance.
Agreed. RAGELANCEPOUNCE is still potent, just not to the point of game-breaking insanity that it once was.
Hmm. Come to think of it, going Cavalier (Beast Rider) so I can have T-Rex riding RAGELANCEPOUNCE Barbarian who gets to add in his Challenge damage and going Order of the Sword so I can add my T-Rex's (Rage-boosted) Strength mod to my damage on a charge could be a really fun concept.
Hmmm... Rereading the thread, I would agree on cavalier being a really good class to go as well. Others that I would suggest (and some of these have been already stated, so i might repeat some of them) would be:
Summoner: Riding and buffing the summoner via raging mount is powerful.
Synthesist: You loose out on action economy but become the complete powerhouse of a single character. For extra lulz let the paladin ride you around and be indestructible.
Alchemist: Beastmorph/vissectionest is an already brokenly powerful combination that is banned in PFS and stacks real well with barbarians extra str/con and powers.
Gunslinger: There is a trick you can do with furious finnish, roused anger, and a 2 level dip in horizon walker that lets you do double max damage shot with vital strike and ragecycle. Double max damage of a medium double pistol is 48 and available around lvl 6. Take urban barbarian for increased dex. Does rely on vital strike so be wary of that but it does get stupid powerful single shots as time goes on (base damage of 96 at greater vital, 148 while enlarged)
inquisitor: sounds interesting but I have no experience :P I immagine a fear based build could be good.
Cleric: they are often seen as healbots, but a cleric of war and strength can be a brutal combatant.
Druid: Saurian shaman can bring alot to the table if you can wildshape into a dinosaur then start to rage away.
Fighter: oh how I love the fighter. Plenty of builds to go with this one, here are a few good ones.
Two-handed Fighter: Stupid damage plus stupid damage plus high strength plus eldritch heritage orc if you wanted to =insane damage swings. Power attack doubled, Strength mod doubled, so much win :D
Archer: Yes archer. Spell sunder with arrows to anyone 30 feet away? Yes please!
Sorcerer: There are a surprising amount of sorcerer bloodlines that are melee geared and here is a good guide to read up on that.
Well thats all for right now. Have fun!
Viv is banned in PFS because cutting open still-living human beings wasn't seen as "family friendly." The only way Viv is broken is if you think the Rogue class is the perfect model of balance. In which case you are wrong.
Ironically, you mention Synthesist just above this when that WAS banned from PFS for being overpowered.
(Even more ironically still, vanilla summoner is more powerful than Synthesist and people just freak out whenever a directly comparable to fighter class shows up that outshines the fighter massively. Banning synthesist but keeping normal summoner was hilarious!)
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Still, though, my vote is for Fighter/Barbarian. Take Raging Vitality as your 1st level feat, since you don't qualify for Extra Rage Power until 3rd anyway. If you take Improved Stalwart, Improved Damage Reduction 3 times (easy with all your Extra Rage Powers) and Invulnerable Rager, your total DR will be DR 30/- at level 20. Let me show you how:DR 10/- from Invulnerable Rager (DR 20/- against nonlethal damage)
DR 10/- from Improved Stalwart
DR 5/- from Armor Mastery
DR 3/- from Adamantine Heavy Armor
DR 3/- from Improved Damage Reduction.Total of DR 31/- while raging, DR 28/- when not raging. Seems legit. Build a Come and Get Me barbarian and stop caring about anything.
Unless there has been a stealth errata DR doesn't stack from two different sources unless it explicitly says so, so unfortunately this won't work. However I do like the idea of pairing barb with the two-handed fighter archetype. At 10th level all but one of your attacks on a pounce would be w/ 2x str instead of 1.5 and would get improved power attack at 15. This will give you a lot of damage potential while also giving you a lot of extra feats to play around with.
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RAGELANCEPOUNCE doesn't work.Yes it does, it just doesn't work as well as before. You still get a huge amount of damage, and if you're missing on the first attack (the one that gets the bonus damage) you're either rolling a one or getting screwed by miss chance.
I was under the impression that the fly in RAGELANCEPOUNCE's ointment was that to use pounce, you, not your mount, had to charge. If your horse charged with you on it, then it would need to have pounce, and then that would mean it got its full attack but you still didn't. Meaning you have to choose between RAGELANCE or RAGEPOUNCE.
Back on topic: I still vote Inquisitor, though I will concede that a Cavalier would be a pretty sweet choice too.
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I was under the impression that the fly in RAGELANCEPOUNCE's ointment was that to use pounce, you, not your mount, had to charge.
And Sean's ruling said nothing about if that was true or not. Only that a character who can get multiple attacks at the end of a charge will only get the increased damage from a lance on the first attack made. It is still a DM call to allow or disallow a mounted charge to combine with pounce.
Sadly, barbarian/bard doesn't work so well. Raging prevents you from using charisma-based skills and abilities.
I have been playing a gesalt fighter/alchemist, which has been really fun. Got the fight beat down power with the utilities of the alchemist, plus the mutagen is pretty handy in a tight spot and the extract shield is really nice for going twf, in the games i play we need to be able to think outside the box and the alchemist has really helped that, and your a potion factory. But then again it depends on how your games usually play out.
Barb(invul rager)/oracle/rage prophet. I had a great axe using Half orc and he was a beast. Cast enlarge>>rage
Pretty sure "dual progression" type PrCs like Mystic Theurge and Arcane Trickster are recommended to be banned in a gestalt game by the gestalt rules, if not outright banned by the gestalt rules to begin with...
They're not needed, as you can just be both classes simultaneously. And if it were allowed, it'd be broken, you could advance the two clases on one side w/ the PrC and advance one of the two further or something else entirely with the other side.
Barb(invul rager)/oracle/rage prophet. I had a great axe using Half orc and he was a beast. Cast enlarge>>ragePretty sure "dual progression" type PrCs like Mystic Theurge and Arcane Trickster are recommended to be banned in a gestalt game by the gestalt rules, if not outright banned by the gestalt rules to begin with...
They're not needed, as you can just be both classes simultaneously. And if it were allowed, it'd be broken, you could advance the two clases on one side w/ the PrC and advance one of the two further or something else entirely with the other side.
Yeah, the gestalt rules ban dual-progression classes like the Mystic Theurge and the Eldritch Knight.
Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations-such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight-should be prohibited if you’re using gestalt classes, because they unduly complicate the game balance of what’s already a high-powered variant.
I'd ask my GM to allow me to play orc or to take the Scarred Witch Doctor Witch archetype without being orc. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-orc/scarred-w itch-doctor-witch-orc)
Then you have a full caster with hexes based on constitution. I Think it fits the barbarian nicely, thematicly.
Your spells would, of course, suffer from spell faliure from armour, but your hexes won't.
Barbarian/Shaman. I have one (though he's not gestalt). The ultimate berserker.
And all Eldritch Knight does to "advance" Fighter is give some bonus feats and effective fighter levels. It's still explicitly banned by the gestalt rules.
Savage Seer alone is more of a "progression" than that. Add in the capstone Greater Rage and all the cast + rage combo abilities... and how the hell is it less like a dual progression class than Eldritch Knight is?
Fun fact: Back in 3E, when the gestalt rules were written, Eldritch Knight didn't even stack effective fighter level and only offered a single bonus fighter feat. So since 3E, it's actually gotten more, uh... progressive, I guess you'd call it. And yet a class whose only features it had in common w/ Fighter were full BAB and a single fighter bonus feat was considered too much for gestalting purposes.
At 1st level, an eldritch knight may choose a bonus feat from the list of feats available to fighters. This is in addition to the feats that a character of any class normally gets from advancing levels. The character must still meet any prerequisites for these bonus feats, including levels of fighter for the Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, and Greater Weapon Specialization feats.
Note the complete and utter lack of any level stacking there?
Let's compare to PF Eldritch Knight:
At 1st level, an eldritch knight may choose a bonus combat feat. This is in addition to the feats that a character of any class normally gets from advancing levels. The character must still meet any prerequisites for these bonus feats. An eldritch knight gains an additional combat feat at 5th and 9th level.
Diverse Training
An eldritch knight adds his level to any levels of fighter he might have for the purpose of meeting the prerequisites for feats (if he has no fighter levels, treat his eldritch knight levels as levels of fighter). He also adds his level to any levels in an arcane spellcasting class for the purpose of meeting the prerequisites for feats.
(I'm highlighting the change for those readers not familiar with the 3E version with which the gestalt rules had in mind when written)
So... please enlighten me as to why a GM should allow Rage Prophet when the rules would have him ban the (3E) Eldritch Knight.
Breaker Barbarian/Monk of the Empty Hand, with the Enlightened Warrior trait.
Absolute master of the improvised weapon.
Doesn't work. Barbarians can't be lawful, monks have to be lawful. You need to be a Martial Artist Monk to multiclass/gestalt with barbarian, and you can't take Martial Artist and Monk of the Empty Hand at the same time, since they both replace some of the same abilities.
EDIT: After thinking aout it, maybe Barbarian/Vivisectionist Alchemist is better than Barbarian/Rogue. Sneak Attack AND Mutagen. What's not to love?