Asmodeus the misogynist?


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I remember reading something somewhere that mentions that Asmodeus is a misogynist. Now, kotictiche makes sense to me as a misogynist as he wants to blame women for what Baba Yaga did to him, but why is Asmodeus sexist? Really, being one of the oldest beings in the universe, it seems pretty petty that he would value one gender over the other and considering he is a great deceiver, he would want to tempt and deceive people regardless of sex


As I recall, Asmodeus is mainly disdainful of female deities - though there may be a few he respects individually.

He is considerably less picky when it comes to mortals that can serve the interests of Hell - note the current Queen of Cheliax.


Because he is a bad guy.... We aren't supposed to like him... If you make everything nice and comfortable for everybody it's boring and if you don't like it you can ignore it in your own game and the Paizo fluff police won't kick your door down and take your books away.


I don't recall general misogyny on the the behalf of Asmodeus. He does have some hatred for some of the female deities, but I don't think it's specifically because of their gender. It has a lot to do with the fact that they're goody-two-shoes.

But I could be wrong about this.

Now Erastil on the other hand does definitely prefer typical gender roles from what I understand.


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

The most likely reason that Paizo made Asmodeus a misogynist is that all of the devils from D&D that are open game content are male -- Paizo can't use Glasya or any of the other named female devils from earlier D&D sources. Paizo did make up several female devils of their own (mainly the "Whore Queens") but they didn't really have a lot of room to place them as rulers of the Hells.


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Claxon wrote:

I don't recall general misogyny on the the behalf of Asmodeus. He does have some hatred for some of the female deities, but I don't think it's specifically because of their gender. It has a lot to do with the fact that they're goody-two-shoes.

But I could be wrong about this.

Now Erastil on the other hand does definitely prefer typical gender roles from what I understand.

Erastil has been retconed he is all fluffy and nice now... No imperfections anymore.


Mavrickindigo wrote:

I remember reading something somewhere that mentions that Asmodeus is a misogynist. Now, kotictiche makes sense to me as a misogynist as he wants to blame women for what Baba Yaga did to him, but why is Asmodeus sexist? Really, being one of the oldest beings in the universe, it seems pretty petty that he would value one gender over the other and considering he is a great deceiver, he would want to tempt and deceive people regardless of sex

Who says Asmodeus is not petty? *** CENSORED REMARK ABOUT EARTH ANALOG ***


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

My pet theory has always been that it ultimately stems from him blaming Sarenrae for making it necessary (in his view) to kill the only entity he viewed as an equal. But who knows for sure?

(Well, probably Wes.)

Edit: I'm pretty sure that just because he's misogynistic doesn't prevent him from dealing with men and women and alike and tricking them all, though...and he pretty much dislikes all mortals for that whole pesky 'free will' thing enough that it probably doesn't really matter. Mortals are still flawed and need to go into the infernal forge to be reshaped into something less so.


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Because they wanted a misogynist god and only evil gods are allowed to have flaws? ;P


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Define "flaw". XD

"I am a horribly offensive entity that doesn't care for your silly notions of equality and fairness."

"But... but... that's HORRIBLE!"

"Why, yes. Thank you for noticing."

(Though Cayden Cailean is rather famously irresponsible...)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Mavrickindigo wrote:

I remember reading something somewhere that mentions that Asmodeus is a misogynist. Now, kotictiche makes sense to me as a misogynist as he wants to blame women for what Baba Yaga did to him, but why is Asmodeus sexist? Really, being one of the oldest beings in the universe, it seems pretty petty that he would value one gender over the other and considering he is a great deceiver, he would want to tempt and deceive people regardless of sex

You most likely read it from a player who's looking to slap a misogynist label on..something, having failed get J. Jacobs to pin it on Erastil, Abadar, or Torag.

It's more accurate to say that Asmodeus is a general misanthrope. Despite this, he finds certain mortals useful and as a prince of lies, is good at faking sincere admiration for them.


^Documentation of the misogyny of Hell (which must be with the approval of Asmodeus) can be found on pathfinderwiki.com, starting here.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

They aren't called the Empowered She-Devil Queens for a reason.


The source for Asmodeus' misogyny is from Book of the Damned 1: princes of darkness, page 32.

BotD, Whore Queens paragraph wrote:
An unrepentant misogynist, Asmodeus thinks little of what he refers to as the “second gender.”

Like others have said, I don't know why you're surprised that an evil deity is a misogynist. I mean, there are evil deities of murder, rape, and child abuse out there.

PS: I can't find the source right now, but I'm pretty sure that Azzy's antiquated opinion of women is reflected in the fact that most devils (and all of the Archdevils) are male. While most demons can be either gender (just flip trough Demons Revisited), devils are strictly male, with an handful of them being strictly female (Erynnies, Gylou, and something that I forgot).


And Gylou pretty much exclusively serve the Whore Queens anyway. Not really a stretch to infer that the only reason they exist is that the powerful female devils made them specifically.


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I always preferred Planescape Asmodeus. Specifically, the one who had a wife that he (appeared to) genuinely (seemed to) love and respect. Especially considering what he did to Levistus as punishment for killing her. And Glasya, also known as Daddy's Little Devil-Girl (not that you'd want to say that unless there were several layers of Baator in between the two of you... and probably not even then, either).

In any case, I tend to swing, possibly because of my own preferences, towards the idea that Asmodeus doesn't really care, but it amuses him to do so and helps keep people off-balance and/or it furthers other plans or schemes he has going. If he can use somebody, he'll use them.

Sort of like how Palpatine in the old Star Wars EU issued various humanocentric policies for the Empire, but was still perfectly willing to make use of non-humans as long as they were, well, useful to him (e.g. Darth Maul). And made use of humans, too. And discarded both, or was willing to discard both, when he was finished with them (see: Maul, Dooku, Anakin/Vader).

Liberty's Edge

Adahn_Cielo wrote:

The source for Asmodeus' misogyny is from Book of the Damned 1: princes of darkness, page 32.

BotD, Whore Queens paragraph wrote:
An unrepentant misogynist, Asmodeus thinks little of what he refers to as the “second gender.”

Like others have said, I don't know why you're surprised that an evil deity is a misogynist. I mean, there are evil deities of murder, rape, and child abuse out there.

PS: I can't find the source right now, but I'm pretty sure that Azzy's antiquated opinion of women is reflected in the fact that most devils (and all of the Archdevils) are male. While most demons can be either gender (just flip trough Demons Revisited), devils are strictly male, with an handful of them being strictly female (Erynnies, Gylou, and something that I forgot).

Do we have a deity (evil or otherwise) that hates or scorns men ? Or even a lesser being such as an Archdevil or Demon Lord who does so ?

Otherwise, it feels very much like modern western views pasted on a fantasy setting.

Silver Crusade Contributor

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Off the top of my head, check out Gyronna and Ardat Lili.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Yeah, definitely Ardad Lili. I'm in an evil game with someone who plays a worshiper of her...which is interesting, since pretty much everyone else in the party is biologically male (or in the case of the half-doppelganger, biologically male 99% of the time). Fortunately, she's capable of keeping her opinions to herself to accomplish her goals, much like her deity.

Silver Crusade Contributor

Luthorne wrote:
Yeah, definitely Ardad Lili. I'm in an evil game with someone who plays a worshiper of her...which is interesting, since pretty much everyone else in the party is biologically male (or in the case of the half-doppelganger, biologically male 99% of the time). Fortunately, she's capable of keeping her opinions to herself to accomplish her goals, much like her deity.

Nothing wrong with that. Her worshipers love working with men. ^_^

(Also, apparently I keep misspelling her name.)


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Kalindlara wrote:
Luthorne wrote:
Yeah, definitely Ardad Lili. I'm in an evil game with someone who plays a worshiper of her...which is interesting, since pretty much everyone else in the party is biologically male (or in the case of the half-doppelganger, biologically male 99% of the time). Fortunately, she's capable of keeping her opinions to herself to accomplish her goals, much like her deity.

Nothing wrong with that. Her worshipers love working with men. ^_^

(Also, apparently I keep misspelling her name.)

Indeed they do. After all, worshippers of Ardad Lili know that 'male' is just short for 'easily manipulated'.


Luthorne wrote:

My pet theory has always been that it ultimately stems from him blaming Sarenrae for making it necessary (in his view) to kill the only entity he viewed as an equal. But who knows for sure?

(Well, probably Wes.)

That was my take as well. The rivalry between Asmodeus and Sarenrae goes way back...before the sealing of Rovagug and before the latter was even a full god.

I think, from an authorial standpoint, it also goes with the idea that Hell is masculine, while the abyss if feminine. After all, the only canon ascended Demon Lord is female, and heavily associated with themes of fertility and childbirth. So it sort of make sense in that light that Asmodeus is male and maybe a bit misogynist.


The 8th Dwarf wrote:
Claxon wrote:


Now Erastil on the other hand does definitely prefer typical gender roles from what I understand.

Erastil has been retconned he is all fluffy and nice now... No imperfections anymore.

... o.O ... uh, why? when? *le sigh*

Silver Crusade

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Aw c'mon, despite Erastil not being that backwards anymore, not all Good deities are perfect. Iomedae waterboards people using electricity and Ragathiel is an omnicidial psychopath. Cayden is a horrible example for the young, Desna is a commie hippie, Shelyn is a hippie commie, Torag is just plain inhuman and Sarenrae failed to kill Rovagug, which clearly means she's in cahoots with him.


Turin the Mad wrote:
The 8th Dwarf wrote:
Claxon wrote:


Now Erastil on the other hand does definitely prefer typical gender roles from what I understand.

Erastil has been retconned he is all fluffy and nice now... No imperfections anymore.
... o.O ... uh, why? when? *le sigh*

People having conniptions about anthropomorphic good gods being less than perfect.... Me I'm all for Olympian foibles, it's the rough edges an imperfections that make for a more interesting game.

Then again I think superman is the most boring pointless character ever invented, followed by that one trick pony the Hulk, oh and batman meh....


The 8th Dwarf wrote:
Turin the Mad wrote:
The 8th Dwarf wrote:
Claxon wrote:


Now Erastil on the other hand does definitely prefer typical gender roles from what I understand.

Erastil has been retconned he is all fluffy and nice now... No imperfections anymore.
... o.O ... uh, why? when? *le sigh*

People having conniptions about anthropomorphic good gods being less than perfect.... Me I'm all for Olympian foibles, it's the rough edges and imperfections that make for a more interesting game.

Then again I think superman is the most boring pointless character ever invented, followed by that one trick pony the Hulk, oh and batman meh....

I agree. If all the good/neutral deities are effectively filed down to "choose the deity that best suits your twinkiness here", then the only interesting ones are the bad guys.


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Gorbacz wrote:
Aw c'mon, despite Erastil not being that backwards anymore, not all Good deities are perfect. Iomedae waterboards people using electricity and Ragathiel is an omnicidial psychopath. Cayden is a horrible example for the young, Desna is a commie hippie, Shelyn is a hippie commie, Torag is just plain inhuman and Sarenrae failed to kill Rovagug, which clearly means she's in cahoots with him.

Desna's in a metaphysical cocoon. Sooner or later she'll emerge and eat all of our souls, screaming and wriggling. ;)


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The Asmodeus as misogynist stuff comes primarily from The Book of the Damned: Princes of Darkness.

Asmodeus's misogyny is pretty subtle compared to, say, Kostchtchie, demonic patron of MRAs, but it's still there, and it boils down to this:

Asmodeus doesn't assign positions of authority to women. Female infernal dukes pretty much don't exist.

The Whore Queens only managed to get the positions they did because they're part of the Exodus - they helped Asmodeus found Hell.

Odds are very good that when encountering a female devil, you're dealing with an agent of the Whore Queens, or one of the very few female-"friendly" archdukes (Dispater or Belial).

Which leaves me inclined to believe that for whatever reason, an erinyes or gylou must be female to be what they are.

Because they'd be male if Asmodeus could help it.

Re: Toning down good gods - I think a lot of that is happening because of folks actively misinterpreting the deity articles in the worst possible way ("This LG god advocates genocide!" or "This LG god thinks adventuring is stupidly dangerous and isn't comfortable with any of his clerics adventuring, so he's a misogynist"), so that Paizo then goes back and re-writes the articles to leave far less room for interpretion.


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The 8th Dwarf wrote:
Turin the Mad wrote:
The 8th Dwarf wrote:
Claxon wrote:


Now Erastil on the other hand does definitely prefer typical gender roles from what I understand.

Erastil has been retconned he is all fluffy and nice now... No imperfections anymore.
... o.O ... uh, why? when? *le sigh*

People having conniptions about anthropomorphic good gods being less than perfect.... Me I'm all for Olympian foibles, it's the rough edges an imperfections that make for a more interesting game.

Erastil was not retconned because he was less than perfect. He was retconned because the rationale for him being misogynistic didn't actually make sense.

He was described as "traditional", but that's real world modern thinking. Here traditional gender roles were much stronger than they are now and modern values are challenging that. In Golarion, there's no reason for traditional roles to be more defined. There's no clash between traditional values and modern gender freedom. So it doesn't make sense to have a god representing traditional values that never existed.


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Quote:
demonic patron of MRAs

I really don't see it. MRAs claim that men are getting squashed by the upsurge of feminist movements in America and Europe. Followers of Kosty follow a demonic patron of power, who only hates women 1.) because he was raised in a society where women were property, and 2.) He was turned into a horrific demon by a woman who outsmarted him. It's a secondary part of his character. It's just pretty prominent, because most of the times you see him or his ilk is when he's trying to screw over Baba Yaga and get his soul back.

Quote:
So it doesn't make sense to have a god representing traditional values that never existed.

That seems to conflict with Kosty's backstory, where there was at least one society in Golarion where males had superiority over women

then, you also have a society where women have superiority over men (Drow)

interesting that both of the major "one gender over another" societies are evil.

Where I heard again about Assy's misogyny was from someone claimiung thnat it was some "SJW" incentive to make the literal devil "the Patriarchy"


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If traditional values = "women are property and men can kill women whenever they want" (which is how Kostchtchie's clan worked), then it makes even more sense for there to be no good aligned god that supports such "traditional" values =P


Zhangar wrote:
If traditional values = "women are property and men can kill women whenever they want" (which is how Kostchtchie's clan worked), then it makes even more sense for there to be no good aligned god that supports such "traditional" values =P

There's a difference between there being some cultures that are misogynist (or more gently - having strict gender roles) and that being a broad past tradition.

Some cultures in Golarion are more restrictive than others. The write up for Amiri suggests a culture that doesn't accept female warriors, for example. That doesn't mean the less restrictive cultures developed out of traditional more restrictive ones.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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The 8th Dwarf wrote:
Claxon wrote:

I don't recall general misogyny on the the behalf of Asmodeus. He does have some hatred for some of the female deities, but I don't think it's specifically because of their gender. It has a lot to do with the fact that they're goody-two-shoes.

But I could be wrong about this.

Now Erastil on the other hand does definitely prefer typical gender roles from what I understand.

Erastil has been retconed he is all fluffy and nice now... No imperfections anymore.

Well... since I created Erastil for my homebrew game decades ago, I like to think that I'm the subject matter expert on him. As with all the deities, I gave Sean a large list of notes to build off of, but his addition of those elements to Erastil were NOT intended and were, in fact, an error as surely as if we'd said he had a pig's head instead of a stags head, or if we said his name was spelled Arastil instead of Erastil, or if we had given him a pick-axe as his favored weapon instead of a longbow.

It was flat-out an error. I would have caught it had I been the one to develop the article, but I was not that devloper—I was working on the adventure and trusted others to develop the article, but it was an error of mine to not say in print to Sean "Erastil, as a good deity, should be progressive and welcoming and supportive of ALL members of a family." That element of his personality was so engrained in my mind that I simply never thought that someone would take him in a different direction.

Good deities absoulutely CAN have flaws. Iomedae is really impatient and humorless. Desna is impulsive and doesn't think of the long-term ramifications of her actions. Cayden Cailean is a drunkard. Torag is too bound by traditions. Shelyn is blinded by her love for her brother. Sarenrae is a bit too forgiving. They CAN have flaws, and that makes them more interesting, but which flaws are the RIGHT flaws for any one deity to have is more or less up to me, as Paizo's Creative Director, to approve.

And I do not want to be in a position where something that looks like misogyny is upheld by a good deity... ANY good deity, but ESPECIALLY one who's supposed to be all about family and community. It's just nonsensical. And as such, it has been fixed.

Project Manager

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Kalindlara wrote:

Nothing wrong with that. Her worshipers love working with men. ^_^

(Also, apparently I keep misspelling her name.)

Her name got changed when she was imported into the campaign setting. The -at ending is one of the oldest Semitic feminine endings, so a lot of Near Eastern goddesses had names ending that way, including Ardat Lili (and Athirat, Anat, Ashtart, in titles like rabat, ilat, and so on). So you're probably remembering the real-world spelling. :-)

Silver Crusade Contributor

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Jessica Price wrote:
Kalindlara wrote:

Nothing wrong with that. Her worshipers love working with men. ^_^

(Also, apparently I keep misspelling her name.)

Her name got changed when she was imported into the campaign setting. The -at ending is one of the oldest Semitic feminine endings, so a lot of Near Eastern goddesses had names ending that way, including Ardat Lili (and Athirat, Anat, Ashtart, in titles like rabat, ilat, and so on). So you're probably remembering the real-world spelling. :-)

plays lots of green widow changelings

knows too much about Ardat Lili

Hmm...

watch out, boys


The 8th Dwarf wrote:
People having conniptions about anthropomorphic good gods being less than perfect.... Me I'm all for Olympian foibles, it's the rough edges an imperfections that make for a more interesting game.

... that.

UnArcaneElection wrote:

^Documentation of the misogyny of Hell (which must be with the approval of Asmodeus) can be found on pathfinderwiki.com, starting here.

Kinda old, and kinda got retconned a few times.

Gorbacz wrote:
Aw c'mon, despite Erastil not being that backwards anymore, not all Good deities are perfect. Iomedae waterboards people using electricity and Ragathiel is an omnicidial psychopath. Cayden is a horrible example for the young, Desna is a commie hippie, Shelyn is a hippie commie, Torag is just plain inhuman and Sarenrae failed to kill Rovagug, which clearly means she's in cahoots with him.
Zhangar wrote:
Re: Toning down good gods - I think a lot of that is happening because of folks actively misinterpreting the deity articles in the worst possible way ("This LG god advocates genocide!" or "This LG god thinks adventuring is stupidly dangerous and isn't comfortable with any of his clerics adventuring, so he's a misogynist"), so that Paizo then goes back and re-writes the articles to leave far less room for interpretion.

Ragathiel is probably LG because making him a CE Demon would be too close to DnD's Blood War. And probably because the game is more "Good vs Evil" than "Chaos vs Order"


Zhangar wrote:

The Asmodeus as misogynist stuff comes primarily from The Book of the Damned: Princes of Darkness.

Asmodeus's misogyny is pretty subtle compared to, say, Kostchtchie, demonic patron of MRAs, but it's still there, and it boils down to this:

Asmodeus doesn't assign positions of authority to women. Female infernal dukes pretty much don't exist.

The Whore Queens only managed to get the positions they did because they're part of the Exodus - they helped Asmodeus found Hell.

Odds are very good that when encountering a female devil, you're dealing with an agent of the Whore Queens, or one of the very few female-"friendly" archdukes (Dispater or Belial).

Which leaves me inclined to believe that for whatever reason, an erinyes or gylou must be female to be what they are.

Because they'd be male if Asmodeus could help it.
{. . .}

Not necessarily -- being sexist as he is, Asmodeus might be perfectly happy having a large subset of the lower Devils be female, all at once using their lower status to implement his dominance over women while using their lower status to double down on his oppression of all things non-Diabolical (not implying that he has any shortage of oppression of the Diabolical other than himself. In particular, considering the common way of making Erinyes, he probably counts making them female to be part of their punishment. In another particular, having Gylou/Handmaiden Devils be female would make sense to him -- he could make them male, but it's a good guess that Asmodeus is probably homophobic too. This leaves the question of why Barbazu Devils are male, but for safety reasons he probably doesn't want too high a proportion of the lower Devils to be female, and besides, given his attitude about gender roles, female Bearded Devils might well weird him out.


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James Jacobs wrote:
The 8th Dwarf wrote:
Claxon wrote:

I don't recall general misogyny on the the behalf of Asmodeus. He does have some hatred for some of the female deities, but I don't think it's specifically because of their gender. It has a lot to do with the fact that they're goody-two-shoes.

But I could be wrong about this.

Now Erastil on the other hand does definitely prefer typical gender roles from what I understand.

Erastil has been retconed he is all fluffy and nice now... No imperfections anymore.

Well... since I created Erastil for my homebrew game decades ago, I like to think that I'm the subject matter expert on him. As with all the deities, I gave Sean a large list of notes to build off of, but his addition of those elements to Erastil were NOT intended and were, in fact, an error as surely as if we'd said he had a pig's head instead of a stags head, or if we said his name was spelled Arastil instead of Erastil, or if we had given him a pick-axe as his favored weapon instead of a longbow.

It was flat-out an error. I would have caught it had I been the one to develop the article, but I was not that devloper—I was working on the adventure and trusted others to develop the article, but it was an error of mine to not say in print to Sean "Erastil, as a good deity, should be progressive and welcoming and supportive of ALL members of a family." That element of his personality was so engrained in my mind that I simply never thought that someone would take him in a different direction.

Good deities absoulutely CAN have flaws. Iomedae is really impatient and humorless. Desna is impulsive and doesn't think of the long-term ramifications of her actions. Cayden Cailean is a drunkard. Torag is too bound by traditions. Shelyn is blinded by her love for her brother. Sarenrae is a bit too forgiving. They CAN have flaws, and that makes them more interesting, but which flaws are the RIGHT flaws for any one deity to have is more or less up to me, as Paizo's Creative Director, to approve....

So what you're saying is the goddess of mercy and forgiveness is "too" merciful and forgiving, the goddess of love's flaw is loving too much, the god synonymous with drinking has a problem with drinking, and the goddess of total freedom has way too much freedom?

... These are interesting flaws?


Asmodeus is male .All things not him are beneath him those that share things in common with him are considered less beneath him but still below the stuff he wipes off his shoes after a long infernal walk. Men have something in common with him hence he likes them slightly more probably like .00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% more but still more and honestly men fall for the easy tricks a lot quicker... Money, Women, and Power.


Mr. Bubbles wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:

Good deities absoulutely CAN have flaws. Iomedae is really impatient and humorless. Desna is impulsive and doesn't think of the long-term ramifications of her actions. Cayden Cailean is a drunkard. Torag is too bound by traditions. Shelyn is blinded by her love for her brother. Sarenrae is a bit too forgiving. They CAN have flaws, and that makes them more interesting, but which flaws are the RIGHT flaws for any one deity to have is more or less up to me, as Paizo's Creative Director, to approve.

And I do not want to be in a position where something that looks like misogyny is upheld by a good deity... ANY good deity, but ESPECIALLY one who's supposed to be all about family and community. It's just nonsensical. And as such, it has been fixed.

So what you're saying is the goddess of mercy and forgiveness is "too" merciful and forgiving, the goddess of love's flaw is loving too much, the god synonymous with drinking has a problem with drinking, and the goddess of total freedom has way too much freedom?

... These are interesting flaws?

More that there point of view of their portfolio can be narrow minded and way too focussed.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Mr. Bubbles wrote:

So what you're saying is the goddess of mercy and forgiveness is "too" merciful and forgiving, the goddess of love's flaw is loving too much, the god synonymous with drinking has a problem with drinking, and the goddess of total freedom has way too much freedom?

... These are interesting flaws?

They are interesting yes.

Sarenrae's flaw is what has allowed her church to form a schism that has resulted in the current state of unrest in Qadira and the hostility between that nation and Taldor, in large part, as well as problems elsewhere (such as in Osirion).

Shelyn's flaw not only has her using a really non-standard and unusual weapon as her favored weapon (her brother's glaive), but also has other compelling storyline elements in which she might be allowing Zon-Kuthon to get away with too much (granted, we haven't yet followed up much on this line, but we could some day!).

And I would call alcoholism a flaw regardless of whether you're a mortal or a god. Think of the mistakes a mortal makes while blasted drunk... a god who does the same? That's absolutely a flaw.

And Desna not only nearly started an interplanar war when she ignored divine law and invaded the Abyss to assassinate the demon lord Aolar, but also is the reason Ghlaunder, the god of parasites, is free—she let him out because she was curious about him.

Those are absolutely interesting flaws in my book. And they are flaws that don't fundamentally undo the deity's role or purpose, in a way that the mistake about Erastil did.


James Jacobs wrote:
Mr. Bubbles wrote:

So what you're saying is the goddess of mercy and forgiveness is "too" merciful and forgiving, the goddess of love's flaw is loving too much, the god synonymous with drinking has a problem with drinking, and the goddess of total freedom has way too much freedom?

... These are interesting flaws?

They are interesting yes.

Sarenrae's flaw is what has allowed her church to form a schism that has resulted in the current state of unrest in Qadira and the hostility between that nation and Taldor, in large part, as well as problems elsewhere (such as in Osirion).

Shelyn's flaw not only has her using a really non-standard and unusual weapon as her favored weapon (her brother's glaive), but also has other compelling storyline elements in which she might be allowing Zon-Kuthon to get away with too much (granted, we haven't yet followed up much on this line, but we could some day!).

And I would call alcoholism a flaw regardless of whether you're a mortal or a god. Think of the mistakes a mortal makes while blasted drunk... a god who does the same? That's absolutely a flaw.

And Desna not only nearly started an interplanar war when she ignored divine law and invaded the Abyss to assassinate the demon lord Aolar, but also is the reason Ghlaunder, the god of parasites, is free—she let him out because she was curious about him.

Those are absolutely interesting flaws in my book. And they are flaws that don't fundamentally undo the deity's role or purpose, in a way that the mistake about Erastil did.

I must admit I am really looking forward to whatever happens with any potential Taldor AP and the Dawnflower Cult precisely because of how much slack Sarenrae has given them in causing problems for other countries, and Shelyn having cracks in her otherwise flawless image could make her more endearing...

But what I mean by flaws aren't so much perversions of their godly nature so much as character flaws you could apply to any other person. Athena was terribly vain, Zeus was a craven womanizer, Susanoo was so violent and abusive towards his sister Amaterasu that she hid in a cave.

Pantheons have always had deities with personalities that went far off the expected path, sometimes even contradicting what you would expect from them, such as the War God Ares being a whiny coward who couldn't take a hit. The problem I'm finding with Golarion is it doesn't really feel like this is the case. Desna is freedom-loving and her flaws are associated with freedom, Torag is a traditions god and his virtues (and vices) are associated with tradition. There's not a lot going on there.

And how was Erastil supporting "traditional" gender roles a mistake? I know this runs the danger of becoming off-topic, but surely a god that existed when gender roles were "necessary" would still probably think those gender roles are necessary thousands of years later.

Silver Crusade Contributor

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I'll leave the Erastil thing to others...

I just want to say that I'd love to see more developed between Shelyn and Zon-Kuthon. Really want to see it!


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I think my problem is that few of the Good gods have "ugly" flaws. Bigotry, a mean sense of humor, a bad temper—these are failings that Good people can have, as long as they don't go too far. I find those flaws a bit more interesting than "My problem is I love too much", which kind of sounds like a would-be employee saying his problem is that he works too hard.

Silver Crusade

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I actually like the way the gods in Golarion are set up. It makes it easier for me to think of them as representatives of certain philosophies and ways of life than people. I have a personal and intense dislike of the worship of something with a personality, whether it be the cult of personality of a fellow human or some kind of divine creature.

It would make it much harder (and much less fun) for me to RP a character that worshipped someone like Zeus. I would have zero interest in a pantheon of such deities in Pathfinder.

I dont really care if the gods have "interesting" personalities. They arent the stars, the mortals (and the PCs in particular) are the stars.


Kobold Cleaver wrote:
I think my problem is that few of the Good gods have "ugly" flaws. Bigotry, a mean sense of humor, a bad temper—these are failings that Good people can have, as long as they don't go too far. I find those flaws a bit more interesting than "My problem is I love too much", which kind of sounds like a would-be employee saying his problem is that he works too hard.

You mean having more douchebags amongst the Goods than the Evils, and amongst the Lawfuls than the Chaotics isn't a flaw? (big enough to rewrite the alignment system)

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Kobold Cleaver wrote:
I think my problem is that few of the Good gods have "ugly" flaws. Bigotry, a mean sense of humor, a bad temper—these are failings that Good people can have, as long as they don't go too far. I find those flaws a bit more interesting than "My problem is I love too much", which kind of sounds like a would-be employee saying his problem is that he works too hard.

And to me? That's not a problem. Being a god and good means, to me, that you're actually quite GOOD at being good.


The black raven wrote:
Adahn_Cielo wrote:

The source for Asmodeus' misogyny is from Book of the Damned 1: princes of darkness, page 32.

BotD, Whore Queens paragraph wrote:
An unrepentant misogynist, Asmodeus thinks little of what he refers to as the “second gender.”

Like others have said, I don't know why you're surprised that an evil deity is a misogynist. I mean, there are evil deities of murder, rape, and child abuse out there.

PS: I can't find the source right now, but I'm pretty sure that Azzy's antiquated opinion of women is reflected in the fact that most devils (and all of the Archdevils) are male. While most demons can be either gender (just flip trough Demons Revisited), devils are strictly male, with an handful of them being strictly female (Erynnies, Gylou, and something that I forgot).

Do we have a deity (evil or otherwise) that hates or scorns men ? Or even a lesser being such as an Archdevil or Demon Lord who does so ?

Otherwise, it feels very much like modern western views pasted on a fantasy setting.

Odd, most Eastern cultures are generally considered to be more misogynistic than western ones.


True, which is what I meant when I said Good gods "aren't allowed" to be flawed. Sorry if I was unclear and jumpstarted a quasi-derail. :P

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Mr. Bubbles wrote:
But what I mean by flaws aren't so much perversions of their godly nature so much as character flaws you could apply to any other person. Athena was terribly vain, Zeus was a craven womanizer, Susanoo was so violent and abusive towards his sister Amaterasu that she hid in a cave.

Reality doesn't have an objective, detectable alignment system.

Was Zeus a good god? You'd have to have a pretty strong agenda (like being a Zeus worshipper) to say yes. Objectively speaking, he probably comes out neutral on balance, but most Greek deities weren't exactly nice people. If you're not Christian, it's pretty debatable whether the Christian deity's good.

But since we don't have an alignment system--we can't just cast a spell and have the universe definitively announce, "Yes, this deity is good, and this one's evil" (also, even assuming said deities actually exist--part of the reason Ishtar could be a beloved, benevolent goddess to some of her worshippers and a demoness to others is because she's whatever an individual wants to make of her)--we can have people who believe that a deity whose myths include incitations to genocide, torture, etc. is good while people outside that faith are like, "are you KIDDING me? that's straight-up evil!"

Once you introduce the idea of deities who are not only demonstrably real, but have real personalities--and not simply whatever their adherents or critics might wish to project onto them--but are also subject to the ability to say, without a shadow of a doubt, THIS deity is both lawful and good, or THIS deity is both chaotic and neutral, your space for "interesting personality flaws" gets a lot more limited.

Quote:
And how was Erastil supporting "traditional" gender roles a mistake? I know this runs the danger of becoming off-topic, but surely a god that existed when gender roles were "necessary" would still probably think those gender roles are necessary thousands of years later.

Because the "traditional" ideas of gender he was supporting were Earth traditions, not Golarion traditions. The advent of agriculture on Golarion didn't come with misogyny, as it did on Earth, especially given that on Golarion, there's magic, there are humanoid races without sexually dimorphic strength differences, and so on.

"Men are better at pushing a plow around, therefore they should be in charge and women are suited only to remaining in the home and raising kids" isn't a cultural idea that took hold on Golarion.

And such gender roles were never necessary, even on Earth.

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