Alex, you can't prove the OP is wrong, and neither can they prove you're wrong, but they won't even acknowledge the possibility, so continuing is just a waste of time.
Get what's usefull to you from the discussion, and that's it.
Couldn't agree with you more, I can't prove the OP wrong because he didn't assert a position, he asked a question.
This thread has been debating whether or not you can fly, and not talking about penalties really.
What is useful from this conversation is the realization that some people will fixate on literal readings of the rules (it doesn't specifically say 'mental action' in Fly, therefor 'Using a fly spell requires only as much concentration as walking' has no relevance and might as well be crossed out in black marker), and those who can make small jumps in logic (perhaps 'use' means 'control' and 'concentration' is a 'mental' thing... so you 'control' Fly with your brain, not... um... your feet or whatever it is that non-mental control would require, there is no text to describe the 'correct' point of view on this one).
With things like Illusion spells and Dominate Person (and others) clearly showing that move actions don't REQUIRE MOVEMENT, and that they are simply a category of ACTION TYPE... I would hope people realize that you get an allocation of actions on a round.
The NAME of the action does not tell you what you can do with it.
We could rename 'move actions' to something else, let's call them 'Flim-Floom' actions.
We can rename 'standard actions' to something as well. Lets call those 'Jibbly-Joo' actions.
You get one Flim-Floom action per round, and also one Jibbly-Joo action per round. Or you can instead perform a 'Frama-Jama' action, but it uses the Flim-Floom and Jibbly-Joo actions, taking the whole round, so we won't talk about those.
If we want to assume that the name of the action type locks in the properties of the action being performed, then 'standard actions' must involve the use of a flag on a pole.
Cause that's what a standard is.
Right?
I'm gonna keep on using my Flim-Floom actions to control my Fly spells without saying a damn word, or flapping my arms.
I've learned that other people require casters to do it differently, and I feel sorry for those casters. They must look silly, controlling their flight with singing or whatever...
I'm gonna use the spell as it's written, requiring only as much concentration as walking.
I'm not even talking about the paralysis thing anymore, just the Fly spell itself.
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Okay, so by your renaming:
You have available to you a:
Jibbly-Joo action
Flim-Floom action
swift action
Now, let's look at the spell levitate.
You can mentally direct the recipient to move up or down as much as 20 feet each round; doing so is a Flim-Floom action.
Here, it provides a specific alternate use for your Flim-Floom action that deviates from the regular rules of the Flim-Floom action and even shows that it's mentally directing them.
And now, back to the fly spell.
The subject can fly at a speed of 60 feet
...
Using a fly spell requires only as much concentration as walking, so the subject can attack or cast spells normally.
Two relevant sentences are here. The first one, it clearly gives the creature a fly speed, and then it points out that the spell doesn't really require much mental effort on the part of the beneficiary, thus they're free to direct their mental efforts to more important tasks.
The first relevant sentence is the only thing that indicates you've changed how you do movement in any way. Notice how it doesn't say anything about a Flim-Floom action, or a Jibbly-Joo action, or even a Smeckledorf action. It simply grants the beneficiary a fly speed.
Now, go to the rules for combat, you can see a list of the type of things you can accomplish using your Flim-Floom action. One of those actions listed is called "Move".
The simplest Flim-Floom action is moving your speed. If you take this kind of Flim-Floom action during your turn, you can't also take a 5-foot step.
Many nonstandard modes of movement are covered under this category, including climbing (up to one-quarter of your speed) and swimming (up to one-quarter of your speed).
Thus, because the fly spell only grants a fly speed and does not give you any exceptions, you follow all the rules of Flim-Floom actions, in that you use your normal Flim-Floom action to make the normal "move" sub-action.
And a small reminder about paralysis.
A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act.
Now, finally, your concern about being too strict in RAW? That's what these forums are for. These are rules questions, not "this makes sense to me therefore I'mma roll with it" questions. You are free to interpret it in any way you like for your home games, but these forums are for discussions on how the game called pathfinder works. This is especially relevant for things such as PFS, where RAW is pretty much king.
From paralyze We are defining move differently. You define move as to go from one place to another. We are defining it as tensing and relaxing of ones muscles.
The inability to tense and relax one's muscles is called paralyzation. A paralyzed person, who can't move his muscles can still be moved from point A to point B without reliance on their muscles. A stiff breeze, a vehicle, another person, or by my favorite a mentally controlled spell.
You guys are dragging real-world definitions into this. I've already answered all your questions using in-game definitions.
I'm sorry, I didn't see an answer to my question in your response.
I described the physical action for walking. You claim that flying via the spell has a similar physical component, so I would like you to describe what that might be.
I can do it for physical flight, the mind commands the muscles in the wings to contract, which are attached to bones and make particular sweeping motions providing lift and forward velocity.
Like with walking, if something interferes with that physical chain by either shutting down the muscles, binding the limbs, or otherwise preventing the walking/flying physical activity from occurring, then walking/flight can not occur.
Now, what's the physical chain of events for flying via the spell?
We can get back to paralyzed once we figure this out, but for now we seem to be stuck on an insistence that flying via spell has a physical component that is necessary for the locomotion.
I have been asking them to do the same thing for a while now. They won't because they can't.
...but for now we seem to be stuck on an insistence that flying via spell has a physical component that is necessary for the locomotion.
No, it's really just you that's stuck there.
We've long decided that the flying itself is a physical action.
There's nothing in the Fly spell that differentiates the rules framework from the standard rules framework for movement. So we use the standard.
Your mind makes your body walk. You're moving. Physical action.
And with exactly the same amount of concentration...
Your mind makes your entire body move through the air. You're flying. Physical action.
Okay, so by your renaming:
You have available to you a:
Jibbly-Joo action
Flim-Floom action
swift actionNow, let's look at the spell levitate.
You can mentally direct the recipient to move up or down as much as 20 feet each round; doing so is a Flim-Floom action.Here, it provides a specific alternate use for your Flim-Floom action that deviates from the regular rules of the Flim-Floom action and even shows that it's mentally directing them.
And now, back to the fly spell.
The subject can fly at a speed of 60 feet
...
Using a fly spell requires only as much concentration as walking, so the subject can attack or cast spells normally.
Two relevant sentences are here. The first one, it clearly gives the creature a fly speed, and then it points out that the spell doesn't really require much mental effort on the part of the beneficiary, thus they're free to direct their mental efforts to more important tasks.
The first relevant sentence is the only thing that indicates you've changed how you do movement in any way. Notice how it doesn't say anything about a Flim-Floom action, or a Jibbly-Joo action, or even a Smeckledorf action. It simply grants the beneficiary a fly speed.
Now, go to the rules for combat, you can see a list of the type of things you can accomplish using your Flim-Floom action. One of those actions listed is called "Move".
Thus, because the fly spell only grants a fly speed and does not give you any exceptions, you follow all the rules of Flim-Floom actions, in that you use your normal Flim-Floom action to make the normal "move" sub-action....The simplest Flim-Floom action is moving your speed. If you take this kind of Flim-Floom action during your turn, you can't also take a 5-foot step.
Many nonstandard modes of movement are covered under this category, including climbing (up to one-quarter of your speed) and swimming (up to one-quarter of your speed).
You know you make a valid argument here that using Fly should be a free action.
Any action or skill that uses a physical stat fails at the "purely mental" test. The Fly skill operates off of Dexterity. The Fly spell compares it to walking... so on both accounts, you simply can not make us of it when paralyzed.... Which means you either fall like a rock, or if your GM is feeling kind, it's treated as if the spell had just ended.
The usage of 'physical stat' (and 'mental stat') is not something adopted from the published materials, btw, so lets be careful about basing rule readings on them.
I'm not willing to budge on my opinion of what happens to a non-naked person affected by this situation:
The plummet from the sky, apply falling damage.
...but for now we seem to be stuck on an insistence that flying via spell has a physical component that is necessary for the locomotion.No, it's really just you that's stuck there.
We've long decided that the flying itself is a physical action.
There's nothing in the Fly spell that differentiates the rules framework from the standard rules framework for movement. So we use the standard.
Your mind makes your body walk. You're moving. Physical action.
And with exactly the same amount of concentration...
Your mind makes your entire body move through the air. You're flying. Physical action.
I know that you 'decided' it, you just haven't backed up your decision with anything other than circular reasoning, such as the above.
You are defining the locomotion itself as the physical action when walking clearly has physical components (muscles contracting, bones rotating, feet pushing) that flying with a spell does not (demilich skull).
You may think this is an irrelevant distinction, but in the context of paralysis which operates exactly on those muscles involved with walking, but on nothing associated with flying, the distinction is essential.
Except for the fact that the Fly spell has no indication that it is purely mental (unlike other spells which explicitly state so), and as such fails to be excluded from Paralyze?
Yes, exactly, little concentration is required. It says nothing about how much physical activity is required at all, just that flying doesn't require much mental activity. Making the leap from not-much-concentration to no-physical-investment in the activity is huge.
Dude, I've been asking anyone to do exactly that for a while now.
Tell me what physical activity is required to move by flying. All I get in response is that the movement itself counts as physical, which is just circular reasoning.
For example, walking:
Your legs need to work, your mind tells the muscles in your legs to contract, which move your bones in such a way that the physical contact of your feet with the earth propels your body forward.
A simplistic description of the physical actions necessary to walk.
Now, you do the same with the fly spell which covers things like floating skulls:
Go.
As I respond to you previously. Look at the sort of movement available to people free falling in a skydive. By moving limbs that aren't made for flying they can change the motion of their body through air. A trained skydiver is more than capable of shaping their body to go much faster than a person falling unconscious through the air. So the very simplest action would be "keep your legs together, your arms close and bend with the turns".
If we want to translate that to flying skull speak, a ludicrous extreme based on a telekinetic skull... but that's what you've ordered so we'll give it a shot. A skull moving through the air is going to catch wind in it's eyesockets and tumble a bit unless it orients itself in a way that its various cavities don't catch wind. So the simple flying skull technique would be "keep the top of your skull pointed the direction you want to go".
There are only a handful of shapes that naturally glide and maintain orientation without active involvement and a skull isn't one of them.
Since the limbless fellows keep getting brought up, it should also be noted one of the ways to deliberately slow yourself in free fall is to clench your abs and double over after gaining your center of balance and orienting downward. That's all core muscle work to generate drag. The simplest action here is identical to the simplest action even with limbs.
I've made a more than adequate case for controlled flight being impossible as a purely mental feat. Ignoring it loudly isn't a rebuttal.
and yes actually, they aught to clarify binary options like purely mental and purely physical if they are going to use them as mechanical guides.
If 'unable to move' specifically referred to moving your speed as a move action, then taking other physical actions would be allowed.
"A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act."
You know you make a valid argument here that using Fly should be a free action.
I'm not going to dignify this with any response more than pointing out how ridiculous it is.
Your entire argument rests on the fact that 'unable to move' means 'unable to move your speed' when in fact it can't mean that at all.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Move
you just haven't backed up your decision with anything other than circular reasoning
You also haven't given any acceptable quote that directly states that making use of fly is a purely mental action.
I've made a more than adequate case for controlled flight being impossible as a purely mental feat. Ignoring it loudly isn't a rebuttal.
and yes actually, they aught to clarify binary options like purely mental and purely physical if they are going to use them as mechanical guides.
Yet a level 20 wizard casting fly can choose to fly without moving a single muscle. He will do this and take a -5 penalty to dexterity, because he is going to sit legs crossed arms folded. Lets see. -5 dex +10 spell Bonus + 20 ranks +3 class bonus. Hmmm that is a +28 bonus to succeed on any fly check. He can decide to pick up a tower shield and have an even greater penalty yet still adequately pass any skill check. I remind you, he is controlling his movement purely with his mind, because he is that bad ass.
Except for the fact that the Fly spell has no indication that it is purely mental (unlike other spells which explicitly state so), and as such fails to be excluded from Paralyze?...but for now we seem to be stuck on an insistence that flying via spell has a physical component that is necessary for the locomotion.No, it's really just you that's stuck there.
We've long decided that the flying itself is a physical action.
There's nothing in the Fly spell that differentiates the rules framework from the standard rules framework for movement. So we use the standard.
Your mind makes your body walk. You're moving. Physical action.
And with exactly the same amount of concentration...
Your mind makes your entire body move through the air. You're flying. Physical action.
I know that you 'decided' it, you just haven't backed up your decision with anything other than circular reasoning, such as the above.
You are defining the locomotion itself as the physical action when walking clearly has physical components (muscles contracting, bones rotating, feet pushing) that flying with a spell does not (demilich skull).
You may think this is an irrelevant distinction, but in the context of paralysis which operates exactly on those muscles involved with walking, but on nothing associated with flying, the distinction is essential.
I keep waiting for the physical action associated with flying, are you going to be the one to finally present it?
What sort of statement is required to be considered only a mental activity. Are you sure that such a statement exists everywhere it should, such as various skill checks?
Do you truly expect Pathfinder to enumerate the entire set of mental activities available to characters who are paralyzed?
My stance has nothing to do with physical, and everything to do with it NOT being purely mental.
Rules already include statements which explicitly state they are mental actions, which refer back to mechanics detailed as such. Not just general english, but actual detailed and quantified game mechanic terms. If they intended for that to be the case, as you seem to believe, where is that rules wording to that actual effect? Mechanically, they exist where they should be, not left to the imagination. I'm 100% sure, that any action explicitly stated to be purely mental is. If you want to make an action purely mental it is ON YOU, to provide the RULES TEXT indicating it is so, not me to prove that it isn't so. As an exception based game, if it isn't there, it isn't so, it is a VERY simple and logical distinction, mechanically.
It you want to suppose and assume it is missing, because you feel it should work the way you want it to. Feel free. I'm going by the actual words on the page, where the designers have gone to lengths to detail other actions as purely mental, but not this one. If they went through and made explicit statements in other spells and abilities, why is it so hard to believe it isn't supposed to be in the Fly spell? What is so hard to comprehend about it not working the way you think it should? I mean, it isn't there...
As I respond to you previously. Look at the sort of movement available to people free falling in a skydive. By moving limbs that aren't made for flying they can change the motion of their body through air. A trained skydiver is more than capable of shaping their body to go much faster than a person falling unconscious through the air. So the very simplest action would be "keep your legs together, your arms close and bend with the turns".
If we want to translate that to flying skull speak, a ludicrous extreme based on a telekinetic skull... but that's what you've ordered so we'll give it a shot. A skull moving through the air is going to catch wind in it's eyesockets and tumble a bit unless it orients itself in a way that its various cavities don't catch wind. So the simple flying skull technique would be "keep the top of your skull pointed the direction you want to go".
There are only a handful of shapes that naturally glide and maintain orientation without active involvement and a skull isn't one of them.
Since the limbless fellows keep getting brought up, it should also be noted one of the ways to deliberately slow yourself in free fall is to clench your abs and double over after gaining your center of balance and orienting downward. That's all core muscle work to generate drag. The simplest action here is identical to the simplest action even with limbs.
That's fine. Now please point out in the pathfinder rules the modifiers for flying without limbs.
Oh, they don't exist? Yeah, that's because the fly spell doesn't need limbs. Period. The fly spell doesn't use limbs. Period. A demilich using the fly spell flies just as well as a dragon using the fly spell, relative to their respective skill modifier. The dragon doesn't get a bonus because it 'has wings' and the skull doesn't get penalties because it's essentially a flying rock. Why? Because the fly spell has no relationship to either the aerodynamics of the flying creature, nor any physical capabilities of the flying...
I would expect them to state it was a mental action... Oh right they didn't.
I just wanted to point out one thing that seems to be getting ignored.
The entire full sentence, not just part of it, reads like so:
Using a fly spell requires only as much concentration as walking, so the subject can attack or cast spells normally.
This sentence, read by itself means exactly what the one sentence is trying to say. It's trying to say that flying via the fly spell is no more mentally taxing than walking, another form of movement. Because the fly spell is not mentally taxing, you are still able to cast spells.
That's all that it's stating. It's not stating that it's only a mental action, like levitate does. It's simply telling you that you need not worry about it interfering with your ability to devote your mental ability to other tasks.
My stance has nothing to do with physical, and everything to do with it NOT being purely mental.Dude, if it isn't purely mental, then there has to be a physical component. Saying that it is NOT purely mental is saying that it IS physical, at least in part. Your above statement makes no sense.
Rules already include statements which explicitly state they are mental actions, which refer back to mechanics detailed as such.
If they went through and made explicit statements in other spells and abilities, why is it so hard to believe it isn't supposed to be in the Fly spell? What is so hard to comprehend about it not working the way you think it should? I mean, it isn't there...
Fine, is perception purely a mental activity?
What about knowledge checks?
Where is it explicitly called out in either of those cases that they are mental actions?
Usually none. In most cases, a Knowledge check doesn't take an action
Your senses allow you to notice fine details and alert you to danger. Perception covers all five senses, including sight, hearing, touch, taste, and smell........Most Perception checks are reactive, made in response to observable stimulus. Intentionally searching for stimulus is a move action........
Have you considered reading something before using it as an example?
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There's no need for specific rules regarding limbless flying, it's been ruled several times that you are assumed to be more or less able bodied in your healthy and whole form whatever that may be. You asked for a narrative description similar to the "just like walking" and I've provided one. It doesn't need to be tailored to the specific type of body moving since any shape of body will need to make adjustments with similar attention to their shape and size regardless of what that may be.
This reminds me of an old conversation about monk's slow fall ability honestly. "It just says I need to be near a wall to slow my decent, there's no indication that I need to interact with the wall at all!"
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I would expect them to state it was a mental action... Oh right they didn't.Sure they did:
Using a fly spell requires only as much concentration as walking_requires_ _only_ _concentration_
Done.
"Making an apple pie requires only as many apples as you have in your kitchen."
What is the ingredients list of the apple pie?
There seems to be a lot of confusion about some words being used in the Fly spell:
Using
Only
Concentration
It might be worth your time to go look them up using whatever resource you favor.
Pointing out that the word concentration can be used to describe a mechanical aspect of the game does not preclude its use in other situations.
I will also bring attention once again to the fact that there are no 'physical stats' or 'mental stats'. Nowhere in the rules is this distinction made.
The Fly skill is indeed grouped under the Dex skills, no arguing that.
But what relevance does that have? Without defined 'physical' and 'mental' stats, it has zero relevance.
So, if we want to throw around that dreaded acronym 'RAW', then lets be consistent.
How many mentions of 'physical actions' have provided us with quoted text from Paizo materials?
How many mentions of 'mental actions' have provided us with quoted text from Paizo materials?
I'm not denying that I'm filling in some blanks with the assumption that Fly is controlled mentally (concentration, not 'Concentration'), but its the shortest distance between two lines.
Sure, you can make an argument that Fly requires some kind of unwritten 'physical action', but it's based on assumptions instead of written rules.
So, if both sides in this are making assumptions, my feeling is that the side with the least amount of assumptions is closer to the rules, and should be considered more accurate than a point of view that has to draw a convoluted route to it's point by referencing a skill that literally CANNOT be defined as a physical action (because no such thing exists), a point that ADDITIONALLY must completely ignore published text (paralyzed specifically says you are allowed take purely mental actions), the counter argument against Fly working ADDITIONALLY ignore more published text that was written into the spell talking about how it is used (as much concentration as walking).
Trying to say that Fly can't work the way we are discussing involves MULTIPLE false assumptions and mistakes.
My argument simply involves USING what is already written. I'm not deleting text or creating action types that aren't mentioned.
It seems that my point of view is gathering a few followers, I'm glad that others see it my way.
I'm not saying that the other side of this equation is totally without merit, but that it is based on multiple false assumptions that build on each other.
If you are of the school of though that strict RAW must be applied in all situations, go look at my post about being dead. The only mechanical penalty it has is that you can't heal anymore.
"Dead
The character's hit points are reduced to a negative amount equal to his Constitution score, his Constitution drops to 0, or he is killed outright by a spell or effect. The character's soul leaves his body. Dead characters cannot benefit from normal or magical healing, but they can be restored to life via magic. A dead body decays normally unless magically preserved, but magic that restores a dead character to life also restores the body either to full health or to its condition at the time of death (depending on the spell or device). Either way, resurrected characters need not worry about rigor mortis, decomposition, and other conditions that affect dead bodies."
So, enjoy playing in your games where Fly requires an action type that doesn't exist, and death (in fact, hitpoints themselves) have no relevance.
I'm gonna go back to my table where we can use what is written without having to analyze every sentence word for word... Where dead people can't act, and where magic allows you to do things you might not normally be able do.
You know, if I need to I can actually find the list of ingredients.
Now, find that list of physical requirements for the fly spell.
I've already provided them, though just not what you seem to be satisfied with.
A creature under the effects of the fly spell gains a fly speed of 60ft. It does not provide any exceptions.
A creature that wishes to move at one of his speeds takes the "move" move action.
A creature that is paralyzed cannot move.
These are very clear definitions.
As a counterpoint, find that list of physical requirements for the attack action.
So, if both sides in this are making assumptions, my feeling is that the side with the least amount of assumptions is closer to the rules
The creature gains a fly speed of 60 ft - fact, backed by text.
To move at one of your speeds, you take the "move" move action. - fact, backed by text.
"A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act." - The literal text of paralysis.
My argument is making exactly zero assumptions. In fact, saying that the text "Requires only as much concentration as walking" means that it's purely mental is an assumption. Therefore, your side is making exactly one more assumption than mine is, and by your own statement my side is closer to the rules.
There seems to be a lot of confusion about some words being used in the Fly spell:
Using
Only
Concentration
The text of the spell DOES. NOT. SAY. that it "requires only concentration". It says "only as much concentration as walking". What you're doing is essentially cherry picking the text to suit your argument.
EDIT: Before I go any further, I just wanted to say: I DO agree that logically a character that is under the magical effects of the fly spell should be able to fly through paralysis. But that's not the rules. This is a rules questions forum, and that's the question I am answering. If you want to turn pathfinder into a game of realism, you have to go a lot deeper than whether someone who is paralyzed can fly with the spell.
My stance has nothing to do with physical, and everything to do with it NOT being purely mental.Dude, if it isn't purely mental, then there has to be a physical component. Saying that it is NOT purely mental is saying that it IS physical, at least in part. Your above statement makes no sense.
Rules already include statements which explicitly state they are mental actions, which refer back to mechanics detailed as such.
If they went through and made explicit statements in other spells and abilities, why is it so hard to believe it isn't supposed to be in the Fly spell? What is so hard to comprehend about it not working the way you think it should? I mean, it isn't there...
Fine, is perception purely a mental activity?
What about knowledge checks?
Where is it explicitly called out in either of those cases that they are mental actions?
If you aren't a mental midget, please refrain from calling me "dude".
We have 2 distinctions that mean anything at all in this.
1) Purely mental
2) Anything else.
If it isn't listed as 1), mechanically the game rules could give two $hits about your opinion on the subject and your obvious lack of understanding the logic involved.
You are imposing things into the equation, trash information. You are assuming things work the way you want them to. That isn't the case.
The mechanics are looking for the words "purely mental", or something mechanically equivalent to that. Not the general English term of concentration. Not the undefined action. Not fluff you decided works for the spell.
"Purely Mental"
If the ability is lacking that. It doesn't work. Simple, easy, lowest common denominator. Spells that are purely mental have a statement, an actual clause, explicit wording. Not the hint, or implication, or dubious possibility of it being the case. Because mechanically, and logically, the exception has to be there for the rest of the system to to function.
It isn't a matter of how I think it should function, or my opinion. Just the utter lack of being detailed, and singled out to work the way various others are, purely mental. I don't care about the how or why, it is irrelevant. What is relevant is the logical equation of "if x, then y" not measuring up for this effect. Purely mental does not equate to undefined action, in any way as far as the rules are concerned. Purely mental actions have been shown to exist, in various ways for various reasons. As an undefined action, it by default isn't an explicitly purely mental action. It is just how the rules are.
Can a paralyzed player redirect a spiritual weapon?
It says:
"you can use a move action to redirect the weapon to a new target"
Since a paralyzed person can't move, does this mean this can't be done?
Can a paralyzed player redirect a spiritual weapon?
It says:
"you can use a move action to redirect the weapon to a new target"Since a paralyzed person can't move, does this mean this can't be done?
It isn't defined as purely mental action, so mechanically the rules would say no barring other information.
Can a paralyzed player redirect a spiritual weapon?
It says:
"you can use a move action to redirect the weapon to a new target"Since a paralyzed person can't move, does this mean this can't be done?
"Move" is merely a title for an action type, it is not actually descriptive of the action.
You can use a "Move" action to make people do what you say through a telepathic link, Dominate Person.
Of course, by some peoples logic, a paralyzed person isn't able to use the listed telepathic ability that is published in the spell, because it isn't labelled as a 'purely mental' action.
So, assuming that 'mental actions' and 'physical actions' don't exist, no, you can't use the spell how it is written. This is based on a ruling made using material that DOESN'T exist, limiting a spell that, although published in a clear and concise fashion, doesn't meet the requirements of RAW, and must therefor be read in the fashion that breaks it most.
My stance has nothing to do with physical, and everything to do with it NOT being purely mental.Dude, if it isn't purely mental, then there has to be a physical component. Saying that it is NOT purely mental is saying that it IS physical, at least in part. Your above statement makes no sense.
Rules already include statements which explicitly state they are mental actions, which refer back to mechanics detailed as such.
If they went through and made explicit statements in other spells and abilities, why is it so hard to believe it isn't supposed to be in the Fly spell? What is so hard to comprehend about it not working the way you think it should? I mean, it isn't there...
Fine, is perception purely a mental activity?
What about knowledge checks?
Where is it explicitly called out in either of those cases that they are mental actions?
If you aren't a mental midget, please refrain from calling me "dude".
We have 2 distinctions that mean anything at all in this.
1) Purely mental
2) Anything else.If it isn't listed as 1), mechanically the game rules could give two $hits about your opinion on the subject and your obvious lack of understanding the logic involved.
You are imposing things into the equation, trash information. You are assuming things work the way you want them to. That isn't the case.
The mechanics are looking for the words "purely mental", or something mechanically equivalent to that. Not the general English term of concentration. Not the undefined action. Not fluff you decided works for the spell.
"Purely Mental"
If the ability is lacking that. It doesn't work. Simple, easy, lowest common denominator. Spells that are purely mental have a statement, an actual clause, explicit wording. Not the hint, or implication, or dubious possibility of it being the case. Because mechanically, and logically, the exception has to be there for the rest of the system to to function.
It isn't a matter of...
Personally I'd say that if something is no action or "action: None" then it can be purely menta/sensory.
Under that definition fly still doesnt work while paralyzed because flying is an action.
I guess you never infer anything about how things work. I'm pretty sure this is where common sense comes in. That thing that Paizo put in to the books so that the books were not 1000 pages long to define everything.
Can a paralyzed player redirect a spiritual weapon?
It says:
"you can use a move action to redirect the weapon to a new target"Since a paralyzed person can't move, does this mean this can't be done?
We've already gone over the distinction of the difference between the "move" action and "a move action". You can take any move action that has only mental requirements, but you cannot "move".
Now, to answer your question about spritual weapon, you'll notice that it creates a new option for what you can do with your "move action". (as opposed to fly). Therefore, it is not subject to the paralysis "cannot move" function, but rather than the "cannot act" function. So you must now consider if this is a purely mental act.
Because it does not say it is a purely mental act, you cannot redirect it to a new target. Perhaps you must direct it with a gesture, or something. But the point is, an action has to tell you that it's done mentally for it to qualify for paralysis's exception.
This is, again, all for terms of strict reading of the rules. Perhaps a GM might rule it another way for the purpose of flavor or logic, but that has no place in a rules question.
You know, if I need to I can actually find the list of ingredients.
Now, find that list of physical requirements for the fly spell.
I've already provided them, though just not what you seem to be satisfied with.
A creature under the effects of the fly spell gains a fly speed of 60ft. It does not provide any exceptions.
A creature that wishes to move at one of his speeds takes the "move" move action.
A creature that is paralyzed cannot move.
These are very clear definitions.
As a counterpoint, find that list of physical requirements for the attack action.
You are missing the fact that 'move' means different things, as I said already.
Once again:
If the 'move' in this statement:
A creature that is paralyzed cannot move.is the same as the 'move' in take the 'move' move action, then paralyzed literally means this:
A creature that is paralyzed cannot take the 'move' move actionThis is the result of your definition.
Now, naturally that definition allows any sort of movement which is not the 'move' move action.
On the other hand, if the 'move' in
A creature that is paralyzed cannot move.actually means 'cannot move their limbs' then the sentence translates to:
A creature that is paralyzed cannot move their limbs.Which is actually what paralyzed means. And, of course, is irrelevant with respect to the fly spell which does not require movement of limbs.
Just to reiterate since it seems I'm not getting the message across, words can have multiple meanings, words in Pathfinder can have multiple meanings, the word 'move' especially has several different meanings in Pathfinder.
"A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act."
Why "move and act" if "move" already covers all bases?
Because it doesn't. "Move" in that sentence is used in its intransitive form. In that form, it almost always means "to go from one place to another."
The "act" part of that sentence aggravates the situation by disallowing everything else you conveniently shuffle under "move".
I've made a more than adequate case for controlled flight being impossible as a purely mental feat. Ignoring it loudly isn't a rebuttal.
and yes actually, they aught to clarify binary options like purely mental and purely physical if they are going to use them as mechanical guides.
Yet a level 20 wizard casting fly can choose to fly without moving a single muscle. He will do this and take a -5 penalty to dexterity, because he is going to sit legs crossed arms folded. Lets see. -5 dex +10 spell Bonus + 20 ranks +3 class bonus. Hmmm that is a +28 bonus to succeed on any fly check. He can decide to pick up a tower shield and have an even greater penalty yet still adequately pass any skill check. I remind you, he is controlling his movement purely with his mind, because he is that bad ass.
I never noticed before, but ground movement is exactly the same. From now on I'm moving without the use of my limbs, cause that's how I roll.
Well, there you have it. If you get even one other person to agree with this I will be stunned.It isn't defined as purely mental action, so mechanically the rules would say no barring other information.Can a paralyzed player redirect a spiritual weapon?
It says:
"you can use a move action to redirect the weapon to a new target"Since a paralyzed person can't move, does this mean this can't be done?
I've been also arguing his side.