In the campaign I am playing right now, I am a 4th level paladin. It is a very, very, very long story so I won't go into the details of how this happened, but I was chosen by my party to fight an ogre in a pit fight. It is a friendly naked pit fight: no armor, no weapons, not even any clothing at all; loser loses an ear or a finger, chosen and consumed by the winner. Magic is not allowed and ogre clerics will be detecting it everywhere.
We figured I had the best chance of winning due to my smite and lay on hands, but I'm not sure if I would be able to use them. Smite is magic, but is it detectable? My GM said it would probably leave scorch marks or something, so even if it's not detectable people would notice. I argued that it didn't do energy damage, so it wouldn't leave any kind of energy damage marks, only bleeding and bruises.
That lead me to another question: Smite Evil is a magic ability, but does it do magic damage and/or do "magical effects"?
Lay on Hands is definitely magic, and it may be detectable. It's a swift action, it requires somatic components (need one free hand), probably requires verbal components, and it is noticeable healing. If you could somehow find a way for me to be safe using Lay on Hands, I would love that because it would give me a ton of extra health, but I won't be disappointed nor surprised if i can't use it. I could argue against mundane ways of detecting the use of Lay on Hands by me just finding a way to touch my body without people noticing, such as putting my hand over my cheek after i just got punched in the face.
We left off the session the in-game day before the fight, so it's still debatable whether i can use Smite Evil or not. If I can't, I will certainly lose due to the 29 Str of the ogre and possibly a brawler level the GM will give him.
Recap of my questions:
1. Is Smite Evil detectable by Detect Magic?
2. Does Smite Evil leave any strange markings or create any visual effects such as light that would cause people to realize I am using magic?
3. Is Lay on Hands detectable by Detect Magic?
Supernatural Abilities (Su)
These can't be disrupted in combat and generally don't provoke attacks of opportunity. They aren't subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or dispel magic, and don't function in antimagic areas.
Because they don't function in antimagic areas, I would argue that supernatural abilities do, in fact, detect as magic.
It really does not matter because if you attempt to use either ability you are breaking the rules of the fight. Cheating in a friendly fight is not really an honorable thing to do. Probably not enough to cause you to fall, but if I were the GM your abilities would fail as a warning.
Detect Magic notes that "detect(s) magical auras" but only give rules for magic items and spells. There is no discernible way to determine the aura of anything other than magic items and spells. Thus, it may say there is a magic aura (though this is dubious, and heavily subject to fiat), but there is no way to determine what it is.
Incidentally, do you have magic aura available? That would entirely cover all your problems.
As for the fluff, smite evil notes,
Once per day, a paladin can call out to the powers of good to aid her in her struggle against evil. As a swift action, the paladin chooses one target within sight to smite. If this target is evil, the paladin adds her Cha bonus (if any) to her attack rolls and adds her paladin level to all damage rolls made against the target of her smite. If the target of smite evil is an outsider with the evil subtype, an evil-aligned dragon, or an undead creature, the bonus to damage on the first successful attack increases to 2 points of damage per level the paladin possesses. Regardless of the target, smite evil attacks automatically bypass any DR the creature might possess.
In addition, while smite evil is in effect, the paladin gains a deflection bonus equal to her Charisma modifier (if any) to her AC against attacks made by the target of the smite. If the paladin targets a creature that is not evil, the smite is wasted with no effect.
The smite evil effect remains until the target of the smite is dead or the next time the paladin rests and regains her uses of this ability. At 4th level, and at every three levels thereafter, the paladin may smite evil one additional time per day, as indicated on Table: Paladin, to a maximum of seven times per day at 19th level.
... so, nothing about what it actually "looks" like or does. Hence any marks would be GM fiat.
It's worth noting, that while you may convince the GM of something, you cannot make the GM be wrong about something other than what is printed. Hence, if the GM says it leaves scorch marks, it does.
It really does not matter because if you attempt to use either ability you are breaking the rules of the fight. Cheating in a friendly fight is not really an honorable thing to do. Probably not enough to cause you to fall, but if I were the GM your abilities would fail as a warning.
This is the more salient point that Mysterious Stranger got to before I could. I'd intended to talke about it, buuuuuuuu~uuut... he spoke first. :D
Also, I figured this thread might be useful. It's inconclusive, though.
In any event, mind if we ask for more details of the party?
It really does not matter because if you attempt to use either ability you are breaking the rules of the fight. Cheating in a friendly fight is not really an honorable thing to do. Probably not enough to cause you to fall, but if I were the GM your abilities would fail as a warning.
Ok, i guess i have to give the background anyway. My character doesn't care about the local laws or even those of the country. It is an orc/goblin/ogre country that we entered just to find an important dwarf prisoner being held by the ogres. My deity certainly does not care about being honorable to ogres. My deity is Iomedae, god of glory, sun, truth maybe, and some other irrelevant things. The paladins of this god send crusades on "innocent" evil races, monsters, and other groups. I have a phylactery of faithfulness, so as long as I contemplate something I can't really fall. Keep in mind that only evil acts and breaking the code of conduct make a paladin fall, not breaking laws(I have to say, most of the time breaking the code of conduct would mean breaking the law, but not in this particular case). The only reasons I am concerned with the rules of this fight are: 1. We could fail to get the dwarf. 2. I could lose an important finger, like a thumb or something!
Detect Magic notes that "detect(s) magical auras" but only give rules for magic items and spells. There is no discernible way to determine the aura of anything other than magic items and spells. Thus, it may say there is a magic aura (though this is dubious, and heavily subject to fiat), but there is no way to determine what it is.
Incidentally, do you have magic aura available? That would entirely cover all your problems.
I do not have access to magic aura, and i don't think it would help anyway since i'm not an object, or at least i don't think creatures count as objects. And besides, I would need a level 64 caster to cast the spell on me. (5lbs per level, i weigh 320 pounds)
I don't think the rest of the party matters, but just in case you want to know: we have an elf rogue (disguised as an orc during our time in the city), a human Hunter with a Roc companion, a Vishkanya sorcerer (i don't know how to spell it, it's a snake person), some kind of fox-person race oracle, and a nagaji paladin (me). Not really the best races for role-playing purposes, but they are optimized! They really can't do anything during or before the fight. We will be fighting right before the Great Maw Feast, so about two thousand hungry ogres will be in the building all crammed together in the room next to the pit fight. If anyone tries anything funny, we all die.
EDIT: I forgot to also note that there will be a few hundred ogres in the room of the pit fight watching. That includes the ogre clerics.
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Personally as a GM, I've always ruled that getting fuzzy with the paladin code is fine as long as it's directly against evil. If you want to backstab the necromancer, go for it. If you want to poison the tyrant, feel free. If you want to cheat in a game against a jigsaw-style villain, knock yourself out. Although in all the above cases I usually still mention something to the player. But that's just me, and I'm sure many people would disagree with me.
This thread may help you out.
The exact effects of smite is completely left up to GM fiat. Personally, I usually do a very obvious kind of aura on the weapon being used that leaves horrible burning wounds in the victim. Other GMs just have it do more damage, like the paladin had a trumped up bull's strength cast on them. If your GM says it leaves obvious marks, it leaves obvious marks.
I think lay on hands is far clearer. Regardless of if it comes off as magic or not (pretty sure it would anyways), magical healing is very obvious regardless of the source. Wounds closing mid-battle is not subtle.
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Not really the best races for role-playing purposes
BWAHAHAHAAAAA. Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
Anyway, to answer your question. I'm not sure whether Smite Evil would show up on detect magic, but the target of the smite can tell that they are being smited, because the Warding armor enchantment seems to suggest so. Also, observers might notice the paladin's injuries vanishing every time he taps himself with a hand, even if the clerics don't detect any magic.
That's a pretty difficult situation your GM put you in. Best of luck.
And to other posters, the OP is not asking about whether or not his paladin should fall, he's just asking about the rules on detect magic vs supernatural abilities. Don't turn this into one of those paladin threads, please.
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So let me get this right: Your PALADIN is planning on CHEATING in a fight to win? ... ok then... ( Step away from Lawful five feet... lol... lawful evil is still lawful, right? )
Cheating isn't evil, it's chaotic. Cheating once wouldn't be anywhere near close enough for a paladin to change alignments.
Not really the best races for role-playing purposesBWAHAHAHAAAAA. Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
Anyway, to answer your question. I'm not sure whether Smite Evil would show up on detect magic, but the target of the smite can tell that they are being smited, because the Warding armor enchantment seems to suggest so. Also, observers might notice the paladin's injuries vanishing every time he taps himself with a hand, even if the clerics don't detect any magic.
That's a pretty difficult situation your GM put you in. Best of luck.
And to other posters, the OP is asking about whether or not his paladin should fall, he's just asking about the rules on detect magic vs supernatural abilities. Don't turn this into one of those paladin threads, please.
Well, to be fair, the damage would be nonlethal, since it is a "friendly fight". So, maybe people wouldn't notice the damage being healed because there aren't any huge wounds on my body.
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So let me get this right: Your PALADIN is planning on CHEATING in a fight to win? ... ok then... ( Step away from Lawful five feet... lol... lawful evil is still lawful, right? )Cheating isn't evil, it's chaotic. Cheating once wouldn't be anywhere near close enough for a paladin to change alignments.
I wasn't saying it was evil. I was stating that there is a Lawful Evil alignment that is still LAWFUL, and that a Lawful Good Pali continually breaking the laws of a land simply to "get to the evil quicker" would step one towards "not caring about law" towards NG... and thus, not be a goodie two shoes law abiding goodie goodie. Yes, there is a wide line between lawful good and lawful stupid, I know, and as this player has stated, he is not necessarily a classic Paladin, which is fine. I was joking anyway. A good example of a Paladin who isn't a goodie two shoes would be a "Enlightened Paladin" archetype that barely even has to be LG in their actions to qualify as "keeping the code"... which they write themselves.
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While healing bruises may be less obvious than healing open wounds, it's still pretty obvious. Particularly when you're the center of attention. Particularly when you're being constantly scrutinized for cheating.
I wasn't saying it was evil. I was stating that there is a Lawful Evil alignment that is still LAWFUL, and that a Lawful Good Pali continually breaking the laws of a land simply to "get to the evil quicker" would step one towards "not caring about law" towards NG... and thus, not be a goodie two shoes law abiding goodie goodie. Yes, there is a wide line between lawful good and lawful stupid, I know, and as this player has stated, he is not necessarily a classic Paladin, which is fine. I was joking anyway. A good example of a Paladin who isn't a goodie two shoes would be a "Enlightened Paladin" archetype that barely even has to be LG in their actions to qualify as "keeping the code"... which they write themselves.So let me get this right: Your PALADIN is planning on CHEATING in a fight to win? ... ok then... ( Step away from Lawful five feet... lol... lawful evil is still lawful, right? )Cheating isn't evil, it's chaotic. Cheating once wouldn't be anywhere near close enough for a paladin to change alignments.
Ok, i never said i wasn't the classic Pali. In fact, I act like a classic Pali in pretty much every situation I am in, including this one. I'm not going to follow the laws built by a society consisting only of chaotic evil creatures. I described the situation in a reply. I didn't think it mattered in the OP and, honestly, it doesn't.
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How about you just beat them up? Take your lumps. Regen lost appendages if you lose? Enjoy that tasty Ogre Thumb if you win...
As for the detection - if they are specifically casting "detect magic" on the pit, while you fight: anything that doesn't say (EX) next to it has a magical aura. Both (SP) and (SU) are magical effects (and thus can be detected). Smite Evil (SU) glows like the sun to a "Detect magic" my friend... As does Lay On Hands (SU)...
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As for the detection - if they are specifically casting "detect magic" on the pit, while you fight: anything that doesn't say (EX) next to it has a magical aura. Both (SP) and (SU) are magical effects (and thus can be detected). Smite Evil (SU) glows like the sun to a "Detect magic" my friend... As does Lay Hands (SU)...
While logically I agree with you, I would like to see a citation on this.
While healing bruises may be less obvious than healing open wounds, it's still pretty obvious. Particularly when you're the center of attention. Particularly when you're being constantly scrutinized for cheating.
You make a fair point. I'm pretty sure the perception of ogres would be low, though. I checked the average Wis of an ogre cleric and it's 12. I don't think my sleight of hand/stealth roll would be too high, but neither would the ogre's perceptions.
How about you just beat them up? Take your lumps. Regen lost appendages if you lose? Enjoy that tasty Ogre Thumb if you win...
As for the detection - if they are specifically casting "detect magic" on the pit, while you fight: anything that doesn't say (EX) next to it has a magical aura. Both (SP) and (SU) are magical effects (and thus can be detected). Smite Evil (SU) glows like the sun to a "Detect magic" my friend... As does Lay On Hands (SU)...
I can't just go all out on this ogre, as i stated in my description of the situation in a reply.
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I can't just go all out on this ogre, as i stated in my description of the situation in a reply.How about you just beat them up? Take your lumps. Regen lost appendages if you lose? Enjoy that tasty Ogre Thumb if you win...
As for the detection - if they are specifically casting "detect magic" on the pit, while you fight: anything that doesn't say (EX) next to it has a magical aura. Both (SP) and (SU) are magical effects (and thus can be detected). Smite Evil (SU) glows like the sun to a "Detect magic" my friend... As does Lay On Hands (SU)...
29 strength and a Brawler level... Take your lumps... when it gets time to lop off the finger, have your mage do the old "pres-digit-ation" (pun intended) missing finger trick your uncle, no doubt (everyone has one of those uncles, don't they) shows you every time you stop by. "Look, my thumb's not attached!" (left thumb folded down, right thumb in it's place, move right hand across top left finger) and hope you make your BLUFF roll swapping it for a bit of Dwarf jerky...
(maybe try grappling, if you get initiative it might just work?)
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You make a fair point. I'm pretty sure the perception of ogres would be low, though. I checked the average Wis of an ogre cleric and it's 12. I don't think my sleight of hand/stealth roll would be too high, but neither would the ogre's perceptions.
If you're a paladin and you're considering rolling sleight of hand or stealth rolls, you've already lost.
Yeah, I wouldn't plan on average stats. Particularly in an ogre society like this. Plus it's in poor taste to look up the stats of an enemy your GM is using.
Page 554. Core Rulebook.
For those of us who are only digitally-inclined, could you tell us where to find that on the PFSRD or a similar source?
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It really does not matter because if you attempt to use either ability you are breaking the rules of the fight. Cheating in a friendly fight is not really an honorable thing to do. Probably not enough to cause you to fall, but if I were the GM your abilities would fail as a warning.Ok, i guess i have to give the background anyway. My character doesn't care about the local laws or even those of the country. It is an orc/goblin/ogre country that we entered just to find an important dwarf prisoner being held by the ogres. My deity certainly does not care about being honorable to ogres. My deity is Iomedae, god of glory, sun, truth maybe, and some other irrelevant things. The paladins of this god send crusades on "innocent" evil races, monsters, and other groups. I have a phylactery of faithfulness, so as long as I contemplate something I can't really fall. Keep in mind that only evil acts and breaking the code of conduct make a paladin fall, not breaking laws(I have to say, most of the time breaking the code of conduct would mean breaking the law, but not in this particular case). The only reasons I am concerned with the rules of this fight are: 1. We could fail to get the dwarf. 2. I could lose an important finger, like a thumb or something!
Laws shmaws, if you agreed to the terms of the fight and you break them, that's your own honor on the line. While it wouldn't be something that would require a fall, I'd be slapping you with stiff penance if I were the GM and you cheated in the fight. Iomedae may be a crusader but she's got integrity and honor and should expect the same of her paladins. The oath written up in Inner Sea Gods calls out giving honor to worthy enemies and suffering death before dishonor. There's a nice line in there "I will not tarnish her glory with base actions."
My advice would be that if you can't win honorably, lose honorably.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Personally, I've always ruled that the paladins can get morally fuzzy as long as it's for the greater good. If you want to cheat in this contest in order to win some money and make the orcs like you, shame on you and your paladinhood. If you want to cheat in this contest in order to save the lives of a dozen innocent people, I applaud you for doing whatever it takes.
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Page 554. Core rulebook.
Nothing on that page mentions detect magic.
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I can't just go all out on this ogre, as i stated in my description of the situation in a reply.How about you just beat them up? Take your lumps. Regen lost appendages if you lose? Enjoy that tasty Ogre Thumb if you win...
As for the detection - if they are specifically casting "detect magic" on the pit, while you fight: anything that doesn't say (EX) next to it has a magical aura. Both (SP) and (SU) are magical effects (and thus can be detected). Smite Evil (SU) glows like the sun to a "Detect magic" my friend... As does Lay On Hands (SU)...
You didn't say anything there about having a handicap that doesn't let you go all out, though. Why can't you go all out? The only restriction is "deal nonlethal" and "no magic".
Other than that, you're free to beat the s~$* out of him.
Hell, maybe ask nicely (roll Diplomacy) to see if the Ogre Clerics would let you use your Weapon Bond to get the Merciful property on your gauntlets to make it fair. Seems a harmless enough use of magic there.
Pinkies are very important for swordplay though.
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Would a Monk be forbidden from using his Ki for more "mundane" stuff like dodge, extra attacks, and movement? After all the Ki Pool is Su and even the Ki Strike to pass through DR.
Tl:DR: how much magic is actually allowed?
EDIT: I've been somewhat severely ninja'd by several posts since I started writing this.
Whoops.
Still, the points stand that I'm basically leaving it.
I do not have access to magic aura, and i don't think it would help anyway since i'm not an object, or at least i don't think creatures count as objects. And besides, I would need a level 64 caster to cast the spell on me. (5lbs per level, i weigh 320 pounds)Detect Magic notes that "detect(s) magical auras" but only give rules for magic items and spells. There is no discernible way to determine the aura of anything other than magic items and spells. Thus, it may say there is a magic aura (though this is dubious, and heavily subject to fiat), but there is no way to determine what it is.
Incidentally, do you have magic aura available? That would entirely cover all your problems.
Ah! True. I was mixing it up with mask dweomer - despite linking it, it's been a while since I've read either of them, an I was going off memory. :D
Alas, mask dweomer doesn't work because it targets only spells.
I don't think the rest of the party matters, but just in case you want to know: we have an elf rogue (disguised as an orc during our time in the city), a human Hunter with a Roc companion, a Vishkanya sorcerer (i don't know how to spell it, it's a snake person), some kind of fox-person race oracle, and a nagaji paladin (me). Not really the best races for role-playing purposes, but they are optimized! They really can't do anything during or before the fight. We will be fighting right before the Great Maw Feast, so about two thousand hungry ogres will be in the building all crammed together in the room next to the pit fight. If anyone tries anything funny, we all die.
Eh, I'd say they are less "optimized" (except for you) and more "rife for roleplaying", but that's just a quick glance (I don't know what your character's stats are or what you've all done with them).
Point in fact, three of the races - Vishkanya, Kitsune, and Nagaji - all supposedly come from the "far east" area of a campaign setting. I imagine that you guys are in a "western" location. Hence that alone would be a fascinating RP thing to explore... if you want to. The point is, you guys have great RP potential... far more RP potential than optimized potential. (I'm not saying you guys optimized "poorly" by the way... I'm just saying that your choices are not optimized to the exclusion of RP. It all depends on how you play the game.)
((Also, as an aside: optimization isn't a bad thing.))
The main reason I asked was to see if there was anything else that could be done to hedge your chances. It seems unlikely, alas, unless your rogue is really good at feinting.
EDIT: I forgot to also note that there will be a few hundred ogres in the room of the pit fight watching. That includes the ogre clerics.
Actually, I think you did. ^_^
It really does not matter because if you attempt to use either ability you are breaking the rules of the fight. Cheating in a friendly fight is not really an honorable thing to do. Probably not enough to cause you to fall, but if I were the GM your abilities would fail as a warning.
Ok, i guess i have to give the background anyway. My character doesn't care about the local laws or even those of the country. It is an orc/goblin/ogre country that we entered just to find an important dwarf prisoner being held by the ogres. My deity certainly does not care about being honorable to ogres. My deity is Iomedae, god of glory, sun, truth maybe, and some other irrelevant things. The paladins of this god send crusades on "innocent" evil races, monsters, and other groups. I have a phylactery of faithfulness, so as long as I contemplate something I can't really fall. Keep in mind that only evil acts and breaking the code of conduct make a paladin fall, not breaking laws(I have to say, most of the time breaking the code of conduct would mean breaking the law, but not in this particular case). The only reasons I am concerned with the rules of this fight are: 1. We could fail to get the dwarf. 2. I could lose an important finger, like a thumb or something!
... okay, so, uh, your group is your group and thus how your GM chooses to run it or describe it "correct", buuu~uuut, just so you know, you're not playing Paladins like the actual rules say to... which, again, I want to emphasize is fine for your group, but it means that our assistance will be less likely to be helpful to you.
Just as an example, in Core Pathfinder:
- Iomedae is a Lawful Good goddess of Valor, Rulership, Justice, and Honor.
- Sarenrae is a Neutral Good goddess of Sun, Redemption, Honesty, and Healing.
- Torag is a Lawful Good god of Forge, Protection, and Strategy... and is the only one on this list that promotes crusades against "innocent" (evil) races by virtue of their nature (and the history those creatures as a whole have had with his chosen people, the dwarves*).
*
- the Paladin Code of Conduct states,
A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
... and notes that,
A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and class features (including the service of the paladin's mount, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She may not progress any further in levels as a paladin. She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see atonement), as appropriate.
Because of these things, the game you guys are playing is very similar to the one most of us play, but slightly different. Hence, our advice is going to be suspect, at best, because we're making "presumptions" of "standard" elements in play, which vary slightly for your game.
That said, the phylactery of faithfulness... might not do what you want it to. I would suspect that the phylactery does... in fact, most people play it that way, but, technically, it only informs you,
action or item that could adversely affect his alignment and his standing with his deity
... instead of anything that would violate your code, per se. That said, I'd guess that you'd be fine, since you're a paladin of Iomedae instead of just "a paladin" (without a deity).
... however, that said, it appears to me, as an outside observer, that the GM doesn't want you to use Smite against this creature.
He's already warned you that visual hints will be present so that creatures could figure it out, and that there are ogre clerics "everywhere" detecting magic at you.
That said, how much do you know about this country? Ogres are generally chaotic evil... if so, they might see "cheating" as the only "reasonable" course of action! ... or they might behead you for it.
That said, as others have mentioned, magic can regrow things for you. :D
I can't just go all out on this ogre, as i stated in my description of the situation in a reply.How about you just beat them up? Take your lumps. Regen lost appendages if you lose? Enjoy that tasty Ogre Thumb if you win...
As for the detection - if they are specifically casting "detect magic" on the pit, while you fight: anything that doesn't say (EX) next to it has a magical aura. Both (SP) and (SU) are magical effects (and thus can be detected). Smite Evil (SU) glows like the sun to a "Detect magic" my friend... As does Lay On Hands (SU)...
You didn't say anything there about having a handicap that doesn't let you go all out, though. Why can't you go all out? The only restriction is "deal nonlethal" and "no magic".
Other than that, you're free to beat the s&@& out of him.
Hell, maybe ask nicely (roll Diplomacy) to see if the Ogre Clerics would let you use your Weapon Bond to get the Merciful property on your gauntlets to make it fair. Seems a harmless enough use of magic there.
My handicap is that there are about 2 thousand hungry ogres in the next room and a few hundred ogres in the same room we will be in. If i go all out and use magic, I will certainly die.
I'm starting to wonder if you're right about the ogres not caring that I'm cheating. Maybe what they meant by "no magic" is no turning invisible, flying around, and summoning elementals to make the other guy fight. Maybe a little healing and some extra dmg and AC would be fine.
And for those of you who keep talking about how I will fall from cheating: There is absolutely no way we are going to get this dwarf unless I cheat. If I lose the fight, the dwarf will be cooked by the clerics and eaten by the guy I will fight in the Great Maw Feast. Many other dwarves will be eaten, but we can't save them being level 4 characters. I'm cheating for the greater good and I'm pretty sure my GM is fine with me doing it, but I might get caught. The GM told me that I might be able to convince a cleric to enlarge me so it's more of a "fair fight" in their perspective.
This is not a thread asking whether or not I will fall. It's a thread asking if these types of magic are detectable.
If no SU abilities I would clearly chalk this up to a big case of "OH hell no, I'm not doing that!" If your party balks tell them that with literally no weapons, no armor, no magic, and no SU abilities you're rolling around with just your fists and likely don't have improved unarmed strike.
You have a low chance of winning unless you out-level the enemy.
I'd tell the party to suck an egg, and that if someone else wants to lose a body party they can volunteer. It's stupid for you to go into a fight that sets the odds so deeply against you.
The gods that have paladins would have no desire for you to do something so stupid. It would be a waste of your abilities and you deity would likely think you a moron. A honorable and stubborn one, but a moron.
What is your character's Knowledge (Arcana) or Spellcraft? Chances are good your character doesn't know whether or not his smite will detect. Would he still cheat not knowing if he would get caught?
Although you could probably ask your party-mates, and that would get you a better answer.
Consider conceding to the ogres that you are just a man by yourself, and it is only by the aid of your goddess that you could hope to stand against one of them.
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I'm starting to wonder if you're right about the ogres not caring that I'm cheating. Maybe what they meant by "no magic" is no turning invisible, flying around, and summoning elementals to make the other guy fight. Maybe a little healing and some extra dmg and AC would be fine.
And for those of you who keep talking about how I will fall from cheating: There is absolutely no way we are going to get this dwarf unless I cheat. If I lose the fight, the dwarf will be cooked by the clerics and eaten by the guy I will fight in the Great Maw Feast. Many other dwarves will be eaten, but we can't save them being level 4 characters. I'm cheating for the greater good and I'm pretty sure my GM is fine with me doing it, but I might get caught. The GM told me that I might be able to convince a cleric to enlarge me so it's more of a "fair fight" in their perspective.
This is not a thread asking whether or not I will fall. It's a thread asking if these types of magic are detectable.
Just to be clear, I was not saying that you would fall - merely offering reasons as to why you might from more pure RAW perspective.
My point was never to judge how you're playing, but to offer insight into how others (including your GM) may take it.
Regardless, I do think we've exhausted all the information on the original topic. The ultimate results?
"It's inconclusive; ask your GM."
- for it detecting: it's supernatural and fails to function in an antimagic field
- against it detecting: detect magic only makes reference to spells, and supernatural abilities are not subject to the similarly-named dispel magic.
There might be other reasons, but those are what I'm remembering at present.
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My handicap is that there are about 2 thousand hungry ogres in the next room and a few hundred ogres in the same room we will be in. If i go all out and use magic, I will certainly die.I can't just go all out on this ogre, as i stated in my description of the situation in a reply.How about you just beat them up? Take your lumps. Regen lost appendages if you lose? Enjoy that tasty Ogre Thumb if you win...
As for the detection - if they are specifically casting "detect magic" on the pit, while you fight: anything that doesn't say (EX) next to it has a magical aura. Both (SP) and (SU) are magical effects (and thus can be detected). Smite Evil (SU) glows like the sun to a "Detect magic" my friend... As does Lay On Hands (SU)...
You didn't say anything there about having a handicap that doesn't let you go all out, though. Why can't you go all out? The only restriction is "deal nonlethal" and "no magic".
Other than that, you're free to beat the s&@& out of him.
Hell, maybe ask nicely (roll Diplomacy) to see if the Ogre Clerics would let you use your Weapon Bond to get the Merciful property on your gauntlets to make it fair. Seems a harmless enough use of magic there.
I didn't say you had to use magic.
You were asked "Why not just take your lumps and beat up the ogre"?
To which you replied "I can't go all out".
Which isn't an answer to the question. Just fight the guy.
My handicap is that there are about 2 thousand hungry ogres in the next room and a few hundred ogres in the same room we will be in. If i go all out and use magic, I will certainly die.I can't just go all out on this ogre, as i stated in my description of the situation in a reply.How about you just beat them up? Take your lumps. Regen lost appendages if you lose? Enjoy that tasty Ogre Thumb if you win...
As for the detection - if they are specifically casting "detect magic" on the pit, while you fight: anything that doesn't say (EX) next to it has a magical aura. Both (SP) and (SU) are magical effects (and thus can be detected). Smite Evil (SU) glows like the sun to a "Detect magic" my friend... As does Lay On Hands (SU)...
You didn't say anything there about having a handicap that doesn't let you go all out, though. Why can't you go all out? The only restriction is "deal nonlethal" and "no magic".
Other than that, you're free to beat the s&@& out of him.
Hell, maybe ask nicely (roll Diplomacy) to see if the Ogre Clerics would let you use your Weapon Bond to get the Merciful property on your gauntlets to make it fair. Seems a harmless enough use of magic there.
I didn't say you had to use magic.
You were asked "Why not just take your lumps and beat up the ogre"?
To which you replied "I can't go all out".
Which isn't an answer to the question. Just fight the guy.
Ok, i don't want to sound rude, but you didn't listen to me at all. I'm fighting an ogre that has above average stats and possibly a brawler level. So, he's either CR 4 or 5 and I'm fighting him alone. I'm level 4 and at a disadvantage already because I can't use any of my paladin combat bonuses. I NEED to beat this guy somehow. Also, I don't have weapon bond yet. That would also be magic, anyway.
I've never heard of the phrase "take your lumps". I figured it just meant "toughen up" or "just deal with it" or something like that.
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Yes, which I why I said put your high Cha to work and see if you can't even the playing field. You could easily have a what, +11 Diplomacy by now?
And if it doesn't work, and you lose...call it a learning experience. Your Paladin learned not to commit himself to a fight he can't win and can't back out of.
There's not even a guarantee your Smite would work regardless. Given that these ogres haven't Raped you, killed you, cooked you, and eaten you (not necessarily in that order) yet, they're obviously not the norm for ogres. He could very well be Chaotic Neutral or something.
Yes, which I why I said put your high Cha to work and see if you can't even the playing field. You could easily have a what, +11 Diplomacy by now?
And if it doesn't work, and you lose...call it a learning experience. Your Paladin learned not to commit himself to a fight he can't win and can't back out of.
There's not even a guarantee your Smite would work regardless. Given that these ogres haven't Raped you, killed you, cooked you, and eaten you (not necessarily in that order) yet, they're obviously not the norm for ogres. He could very well be Chaotic Neutral or something.
I numbered my responses according to the sections of your response:
1. I have a +8 diplomacy; decent, but not amazing. +11 would require me to not have dumped my intelligence so that i would have more skill ranks AND max out my diplomacy using the still small amount of skills ranks i would have had.
2. This cannot possibly be called a learning experience. Maybe for the GM, because he is a new GM and didn't go by a book, but not for me. There is no way around this, I'm the only competent 1 v 1 fighter in my group even without my abilities. The two other melee combatants in the group are the hunter and the rogue. The hunter is largely dependent on his Roc in combat and the rogue needs to sneak attack.
3. The ogre I will be fighting IS evil. I detected evil on him. The GM made the ogre society evil, for the most part, but they act more like a normal society, in general. I think it does help that the ogres are saving their appetites for the big chunky dwarves during tomorrow's feast, though.
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Sounded like there were a few ways around this. Problem is you kind of locked those options away from you once you agreed to resolve it in honorable combat in front of everyone. Now you can't take those options (like having the Rogue bust the dwarves out of captivity in the middle of the night) without breaking your word, which is a big no-no for Paladins.
Of course, you COULD have the rest of the party bust them out while everyone is distracted by your combat. Wouldn't save your ear, but if you lose the dwarves are screwed anyway.
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I'm fighting an ogre that has above average stats and possibly a brawler level. So, he's either CR 4 or 5 and I'm fighting him alone. I'm level 4 and at a disadvantage already because I can't use any of my paladin combat bonuses.
If the Ogre's that tough, you're not really expected to win in a 1-on-1 fight. Challenge ratings for combats are typically based on a party of 4 or 5 PCs. You have an effective party level of 3 (level 4, reduced due to fighting solo), so it is possible for you to win, but not without using all the class abilities you have at your disposal. (You may want to point all that out to your GM if he's that inexperienced....)
Now, on to the question of detection:
1) Since Smite Evil has a lasting effect (deflection bonus to AC), I would say that it can be detected in a similar manner to Shield or Mage Armour.
2) Lay on Hands channels positive energy in a similar manner to the various Cure spells. Since they can be detected as they are cast, I would rule Lay on Hands can also.
In both cases, they would be considered a nonspell effect to identify what they actually are (DC 15 + 1/2 caster level).
Sorry, but it looks like you're probably going to lose, unless you can persuade the ogres that it's not a fair fight unless you can use your divine blessings and/or Enlarge Person to even the odds. Or unless your GM is kind enough to use the default Ogre profile with no advantages, since that's only CR 3.
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Using Smite Evil to cheat won't work. Because when you try to smite him, you will find out you no longer have the smite evil class feature. Or your spells. Or Lay on Hands.
Good luck with the Ogre, Mister Fighter-Without-Bonus-Feats.
Depends on how your GM defines the Paladin's code. Using Smite or LoH in a 1-on-1 non-magical duel isn't necessarily an evil act, especially if the paladin intends to save lives by doing so. (Especially if the Smite actually works, which raises the question of the other side of the Ogre's alignment. The default is Chaotic, which means that it probably wouldn't hesitate to cheat if it had to....) In fact, cheating in this instance would likely be a Chaotic act, for which there are no lasting repercussions.
The Code of Conduct section only mentions losing Paladin abilities if he willingly performs an evil act. Granted, the following paragraph refers to not lying or cheating, but it also mentions punishing those who harm or threaten innocents. (I'm assuming the people the Paladin is trying to save through this duel are innocent....) I actually have a problem with this paragraph, since by a strict interpretation, the Paladin cannot feint in combat (lying about where he's going to strike) or use flanking attacks (must act with honour, and ganging up on somebody could be considered dishonourable, especially if the target turns away, and the Paladin is now effectively stabbing it in the back!), neither of which seem to present any problems for most GMs.
(As an aside, if the Ogre tried to Intimidate the Paladin, would that cause the watching crowd to cry foul when the (Su) Aura of Courage activates, making Pally immune?)
Aaaaaaaaactually, yeah, that's a good point. You are, in fact, going to show up on detect magic scans, regardless, if your GM rules that Su abilities are detectable. Effectively, either that will fail you by default (meaning the ogres don't care or want you to cheat) or you won't be auto-detectd.
(I know - nine days after the last post, eleven after the last OP post, means it's probably too late, but I figured it was worth mentioning juuuuust in case they were delayed.)
Also, OP, how did it go? I'd be really curious to know!
It may have already been said, but the relevant rules are as follows:
Supernatural Abilities (Su): Supernatural abilities are magical but not spell-like.
Detect Magic: You detect magical auras.
So, yes, Smite Evil is a supernatural ability and so it will show up with a Detect Magic.