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Can detect magic pick up the auras of active supernatural abilities?
I always thought not, but I've had a few GMs disagree with me over the years.
Su abilities are blocked by an anti-magic field. So I can see the argument for detect magic seeing them. On the other hand, following that chain of logic, you would assume that many creatures, like some devils and elementals would always ping on detect magic if they have always-on abilities. This may be undesirable.
Good question. It says they can't be disrupted, can't be countered or dispelled, and aren't subject to spell resistance.
I would say this one depends on the ability, one-for-one. But I'd hesitate to call it detectable unless it specifically uses magic.
For instance, a Cleric pulses Channel Energy. Would someone with detect magic up "see" the ripple of energy a bit differently than normally-sighted folks? I would say likely yes.
A druid Wildshapes into a bear. Would someone with detect magic on see that bear as having a transmutation aura about him if he were in a group of bears? That's a bit trickier, can be argued either way.
A monk has a Ki pool. He just woke up, hasn't used any Ki today. Does someone with detect magic on see his latent aura of Ki energy? I would say likely not.
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Anti magic blocks it? Then it is magic. Detect magic... why is this even a question again?
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Anti magic blocks it? Then it is magic. Detect magic... why is this even a question again?
Because he's looking for RAI interpretations. There is no rule that says if Anti-Magic blocks it, then it MUST be magic. Some creatures have supernatural powers that are not magical.
For instance, a Wight has the ability to Create Spawn (Su).
Does the Wight radiate special magic because he has this ability? Does the spawn radiate magic because it was created with said ability?
It's a valid question because it lacks RAW references.
Why is this even a question again?
Because detect magic has no way of determining the strength or type of magical aura of a supernatural ability. The spell was clearly written with spells, spell-like abilities, and magical items in mind, not supernatural abilities.
As for whether or not supernatural abilities are magical at all, there is no question. The very first sentence under Supernatural Abilities' in-game definition reads as follows: Supernatural abilities are magical but not spell-like.
What detect magic does is detecting magical auras. Per RAW magical auras are produced by spells and magic items, not other forms of magic.
Pretty sure spell-like abilities produce magic auras too.
Oops, I forgot to list them as separate entry than regular spells.
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I also don't think this is exactly cut-and-dried.
Detect Magic refers to magical auras rather than spell or item auras, but it also clearly assumes that magic auras will be produced by spells, spell-like abilities, or items - there's no way to determine the aura strength of a supernatural ability. Also, it says that "Outsiders and elementals are not magical in themselves" which suggests that their innate constant Su abilities shouldn't register.
I might draw a distinction between active Supernatural abilities and constant passive effects or abilities that a creature has but is not actively using. If a wizard's prepared spells don't show on Detect Magic, a monk's Ki Pool shouldn't either - though an aura might be visible in the turn he spends a Ki point. I'd also expect that Su magic auras would be slightly obscure and it may be difficult or impossible to identify school of magic.
This is all just personal interpretation, though.
I would argue that just having an SU won't register just like just having spells doesn't register, it's active use that registers -- not that magical locations register and those don't have to have a thing to do with spells, items or spell like/supernatural abilities.
I would argue that just having an SU won't register just like just having spells doesn't register, it's active use that registers -- not that magical locations register and those don't have to have a thing to do with spells, items or spell like/supernatural abilities.
And you have the right to argue that as your RAI interpretation, just like the rest of us have ours. But can you now see why it's a valid question since it doesn't have an exact RAW definition?
Active use, you mean like "in the process" only, or having used it that day?
How would you rule my Wildshaped druid in the example above?
Active would be in use currently, a wildshaped druid would register while wild shaped into a form other than his normal/original form, after all the power has a duration.
That's a fair interpretation. So, in a pack of bears, you'd be able to pick out the druid in Wildshape due to the transmutation aura. But you wouldn't be able to see that aura when he is in normal form.
Agreed, of course even if he was in bear form if that didn't read the magical auras from the items that are still working for him probably would still tip you off on which one was him.
Right. Assuming the druid is otherwise naked, you'd still be able to make him out because of the aura.
Agreed, for the case of the wright involved above someone using detect magic will probably usually miss it since it's an instantaneous magic, much like a fireball, sure it happened, and yes it has a fairly permanent effect but unless you had detect magic up and running when it happened looking in the right area you aren't going to catch it since it's over so fast (especially since it's a non-action on the wright's part). A succubus draining someone however might show up while she is actively draining, or a vampire might show from feeding with its supernatural blood drain due to the magical vibrancy it still has (the temporary hit points).
But these would probably be points for a GM to consider for his individual game -- I know the answers for my campaigns, and characters with the correct ranks in spellcraft or knowledge(relevant) would get appropriate pointers of course.
Which, again, is why this is, indeed, a valid question.
Despite the spell's name it only talks about spell based effects. It should probably be called "detect spell aura" or something similar. I don't see how it can detect a supernatural aura if SU's are not said to even or even leave an aura, or have a caster level.
Despite the spell's name it only talks about spell based effects. It should probably be called "detect spell aura" or something similar. I don't see how it can detect a supernatural aura if SU's are not said to even or even leave an aura, or have a caster level.
However in many cases they do have a caster level (see wild shape for the quickest example) and nothing about them says they don't have or leave an aura.
Despite the spell's name it only talks about spell based effects. It should probably be called "detect spell aura" or something similar. I don't see how it can detect a supernatural aura if SU's are not said to even or even leave an aura, or have a caster level.However in many cases they do have a caster level (see wild shape for the quickest example) and nothing about them says they don't have or leave an aura.
SU's never have caster levels. They might reference a spell and tell you to use the class level to act as a caster level for the purpose of the ability. The monk's abundant step is an example, but they never have caster levels because they are not cast.
As for wildshape:
The effect lasts for 1 hour per druid level, or until she changes back.
It is also referencing a "druid" level, not a "caster level".
Despite the spell's name it only talks about spell based effects. It should probably be called "detect spell aura" or something similar. I don't see how it can detect a supernatural aura if SU's are not said to even or even leave an aura, or have a caster level.However in many cases they do have a caster level (see wild shape for the quickest example) and nothing about them says they don't have or leave an aura.
Spells do have aura because the books say they do. If the property is not given to SU's then they don't it.
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Resurrecting this because our group has no paladin, hence relies heavily on, "Oh, I meet a new person? I cast Detect Magic on him/her!"
This renders succubi and raksasha pretty darned easy to pick out of a crowd -- spend 3 rounds, make an easy Knowledge:Arcana check (at the level at which you'd be facing either), and you know they've been Polymorphed.
I have to admit, this may be an intended use of the spell. The paladin's Detect Evil is a similar, "I spam it to find all my enemies" kind of ability.
Just curious, as I'm about to TPK my kids' group with a succubus from one of the APs (not a single divine caster among them, nor anyone who felt that Protection from Evil was a worthwhile spell in spite of all the warnings). If Detect Magic pings on the succubus, it will go... badly... for the kids. Otherwise I figure she'll just knock 'em out, drain 'em, and dump 'em. Catch-and-release to feed another day...
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Casting a spell as your first response to meeting any new person seems like a good way to start a lot of unnecessary fights...
Did I mention, "Kids' game"? :-P
They pretty much offend first, have the maxed-out Diplomacy bard smooth things over later...
And the funny thing is, they don't do it if the other group is overtly hostile or antagonistic towards them. It's, "Oh, you seem friendly! Time to find out whether or not you really are!"
Unfortunately, in a world like Golarion where 0-level cantrips are commonplace, this seems more like a common sense greeting than an affront...
This is one of those questions that when I see them, I can't believe that they still have not been answered after the game has been around for so long.
Casting a spell as your first response to meeting any new person seems like a good way to start a lot of unnecessary fights...Did I mention, "Kids' game"? :-P
Succubus... kids game... um... yikes?!
Also, "you begin casting, initiative" is a good answer to limiting detect magic casting spam - NPCs who fail the check to identify the spell being cast or don't have Spellcraft may assume that it's a hostile spell ; also diplomacy is not generally an option once combat has begun.
-TimD
Succubus... kids game... um... yikes?!
Also, "you begin casting, initiative" is a good answer to limiting detect magic casting spam - NPCs who fail the check to identify the spell being cast or don't have Spellcraft may assume that it's a hostile spell ; also diplomacy is not generally an option once combat has begun.
-TimD
LOL. It was an over-the-top success. With two 11-year-olds and four 14-year-olds (all male, unfortunately) they hit the encounter and were more than gung-ho to volunteer for everything the succubus wanted to do to them.
Fortunately, being a Paizo AP, it was downright G-rated, or perhaps PG. Here's a linky with spoilers if you're interested in how a succubus attack can merit nothing more than a PG.
But getting to level-drain an entire party of PCs because they volunteered for it has got to be worth some kind of "GM achievement award".
As a complete aside, I have NPCs do it to the PCs all the time. Whenever they enter a good-aligned temple or a major government building they get hit with Detect Evil and Detect Magic (and a few others). As I said, just seems like a commonplace precaution where magic is... commonplace...
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...also diplomacy is not generally an option once combat has begun.
-TimD
Side Note #2. Yeah, that's one of my huge pet peeves with players who get their Diplomacies up to +40 or +50 and say, "Oh, I never have to fight again! I'll just have all the monsters GIVE me all their stuff."
Totally ignores the whole
Using Diplomacy to influence a creature's attitude takes 1 minute of continuous interaction... If a creature's attitude toward you is at least indifferent, you can make requests of the creature.
Yep. They have to be at least indifferent and/or willing to listen to you for a minute. Talking that orc out of smashing in your head during combat? Doesn't work.
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C'mon haven't you seen The Princess Bride, all you gotta do is last 10 rounds:-)
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C'mon haven't you seen The Princess Bride, all you gotta do is last 10 rounds:-)
I believe that was an Intimidate check...
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The fight at the top of the cliffs of despair, between Wesley and Inago, that was totally diplomacy and bluff with acrobatics:-D
The fight at the top of the cliffs of despair, between Wesley and Inago, that was totally diplomacy and bluff with acrobatics:-D
LoL. Yep. And then a fight.
And it was a friendly fight and no one died :-)
Resurrecting this because our group has no paladin, hence relies heavily on, "Oh, I meet a new person? I cast Detect Magic on him/her!"
This renders succubi and raksasha pretty darned easy to pick out of a crowd -- spend 3 rounds, make an easy Knowledge:Arcana check (at the level at which you'd be facing either), and you know they've been Polymorphed.
I have to admit, this may be an intended use of the spell. The paladin's Detect Evil is a similar, "I spam it to find all my enemies" kind of ability.
Just curious, as I'm about to TPK my kids' group with a succubus from one of the APs (not a single divine caster among them, nor anyone who felt that Protection from Evil was a worthwhile spell in spite of all the warnings). If Detect Magic pings on the succubus, it will go... badly... for the kids. Otherwise I figure she'll just knock 'em out, drain 'em, and dump 'em. Catch-and-release to feed another day...
Just a note, Detect Magic + Knowledge Arcana cannot determine that they were polymorphed. It determines school, not subschool.
Just a note, Detect Magic + Knowledge Arcana cannot determine that they were polymorphed. It determines school, not subschool.
Knowledge DC Checks: Identify a spell effect that is in place Arcana 20 + spell level
I don't think that's ambiguous; you make 20 + spell level and you get to know the specific spell effect. Am I misinterpreting this somehow?
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Yes, you are misinterpreting it.
Please note that it doing this does not require Detect Magic.
Would it make sense that you can simply walk up to someone and identify every spell that is on their person, even the non-observable ones (such as Polymorph), just by looking at them?
Nope. You need to be able to see the effects of the spell. You cannot do that with Polymorph without being able to observe it.
Polymorph has specific ways to detect it and this is not one of them.
Method 1: opposed Perception check vs Disguise+10 check.
Method 2: True Seeing or similar spell.
In one respect, this is another casualty of Pathfinder trying to shorten things without explaining them. In 3.5 it had this wording:
20 + spell level Identify a spell that’s already in place and in effect. You must be able to see or detect the effects of the spell. No action required. No retry.
Detect Magic tells you that there is an aura, but you are still not seeing or detecting the effects of the spell. For that you need the above mentioned Perception check or True Seeing.
Yes, you are misinterpreting it.
First, please note that it doing this does not require Detect Magic.
Would it make sense that you can simply walk up to someone and identify every spell that is on their person, even the non-observable ones (such as Polymorph), just by looking at them?
Nope. You need to be able to see the effects of the spell. You cannot do that with Polymorph without being able to observe it.Second, identifying a "spell in place" is an observable spell in a "place" (location). Such spells are things like Walls of Fire, etc.
This *might* be extended to non-place spells on a person if they are obvious spells like Ice Armor (an obvious physical effect).
However, Polymorph has specific ways to detect it and this is not one of them.
Method 1: opposed Perception check vs Disguise+10 check.
Method 2: True Seeing or similar spell.
OK. As we edit back and forth at each other (whee!), your quote from 3.5 makes it very clear: You must be able to see the effect, and Detect Magic does not let you see the effect.
I have to agree with the conclusion: Detect Magic tells you there's a spell, and what school it's from, but not exactly what it is.
Nice! I think we can finally shut down this thread...
...at least until Captain Yesterday runs off with it again.
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I edited my post as you were posting and removed the location element. I updated it to include the text from 3.5 which explained it better than Pathfinder does.
Also, I provided another rationale, the observation rationale. Detect Magic does not allow you to observe the spell effect, it only lets you see the aura.
:)