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So my buddy and I are poking around Occult adventures and we come across this spell called "Ego Whip", and its brother spells "Ego Whip II, III, IV, and V". Ego whip IV and V impose a -8 and -10 penalty (respectively) to any chosen mental stat. And if I'm reading it correctly, there's no save for this, just a save against being staggered.
So, enemies equipped with this Ego whip IV or V can just point to the jacked-up, 7 charisma powerhouse and effectively put him out of the fight for several rounds with no chance at a save.
Is this correct; or am I mistaken?
The duration is reduced to 1 round on a successful save, so they do pretty much have to fail it. Additionally, it's Psychic-only (class, not caster type) and the spell only gets particularly good as a 4th level or higher spell (-4 or more penalty). There are plenty of options that require fewer than 2 casts to debilitate a fighter by then.
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It's a penalty, and IIRC, penalties can't drop a stat to zero.
Yup.
Some spells and abilities cause you to take an ability penalty for a limited amount of time. While in effect, these penalties function just like ability damage, but they cannot cause you to fall unconscious or die. In essence, penalties cannot decrease your ability score to less than 1.
In that case though, it's bad enough to put any spellcaster in the near-useless pile.
Sort of. You can still cast spells, it's just your DCs will suffer.
Diseases, poisons, spells, and other abilities can all deal damage directly to your ability scores. This damage does not actually reduce an ability, but it does apply a penalty to the skills and statistics that are based on that ability.
For every 2 points of damage you take to a single ability, apply a –1 penalty to skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability. If the amount of ability damage you have taken equals or exceeds your ability score, you immediately fall unconscious until the damage is less than your ability score. The only exception to this is your Constitution score. If the damage to your Constitution is equal to or greater than your Constitution score, you die. Unless otherwise noted, damage to your ability scores is healed at the rate of 1 per day to each ability score that has been damaged. Ability damage can be healed through the use of spells, such as lesser restoration.
Strength: Damage to your Strength score causes you to take penalties on Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, and weapon damage rolls (if they rely on Strength). The penalty also applies to your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Small or larger) and your Combat Maneuver Defense.
Dexterity: Damage to your Dexterity score causes you to take penalties on Dexterity-based skill checks, ranged attack rolls, initiative checks, and Reflex saving throws. The penalty also applies to your Armor Class, your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Tiny or smaller), and to your Combat Maneuver Defense.
Constitution: Damage to your Constitution score causes you to take penalties on your Fortitude saving throws. In addition, multiply your total Hit Dice by this penalty and subtract that amount from your current and total hit points. Lost hit points are restored when the damage to your Constitution is healed.
Intelligence: Damage to your Intelligence score causes you to take penalties on Intelligence-based skill checks. This penalty also applies to any spell DCs based on Intelligence.
Wisdom: Damage to your Wisdom score causes you to take penalties on Wisdom-based skill checks and Will saving throws. This penalty also applies to any spell DCs based on Wisdom.
Charisma: Damage to your Charisma score causes you to take penalties on Charisma-based skill checks. This penalty also applies to any spell DCs based off Charisma and the DC to resist your channeled energy.
However, ability drain will affect your ability to actually cast.
Ability Drain: Ability drain actually reduces the relevant ability score. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to lose skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. Ability drain can be healed through the use of spells such as restoration.
Nowhere near as bad as a totenmask...
Nope, assuming starting charisma 7 and a 10 point penalty You are now Charisma 6 with a 10 point penalty, so still minimum 1.
Penalties don't affect your ability score, damage does, so they don't really interact with each other at all.
I wonder if Ego Whip can prevent Cha casters from casting high level spells.
In that case though, it's bad enough to put any spellcaster in the near-useless pile.Sort of. You can still cast spells, it's just your DCs will suffer.
Those quotes seem to be addressing effects of stat damage, instead of a stat penalty.
I wonder if Ego Whip can prevent Cha casters from casting high level spells.
No, because it is an ability penalty, not ability damage. If it did ability damage they could lose the ability to cast higher level spells. It would however reduce the DC of their spells by 1 for every 2 points of penalties they take.
I wonder if Ego Whip can prevent Cha casters from casting high level spells.No, because it is an ability penalty, not ability damage. If it did ability damage they could lose the ability to cast higher level spells. It would however reduce the DC of their spells by 1 for every 2 points of penalties they take.
So it is another useless spell
EDIT: on a second thought, how does it relate with this? It says ability penalties counts as damage with the only difference that they cannot drop you to 0
Some spells and abilities cause you to take an ability penalty for a limited amount of time. While in effect, these penalties function just like ability damage, but they cannot cause you to fall unconscious or die. In essence, penalties cannot decrease your ability score to less than 1.Paizo PRD link.
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I dunno about that. In addition to the stagger effect on a failed save, consider zapping a smiting paladin for Charisma with ego whip V. Even on a successful save (which is very likely), you've given her a -5 penalty on all saving throws for 1 round, as well as -5 on attack rolls and AC against her smite target. Comparatively, in my home games, limited wish for a no-save -7 on the next saving throw is a very popular cast against a tough foe as a 7th-level spell (even with the expensive material component).
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I wonder if Ego Whip can prevent Cha casters from casting high level spells.No, because it is an ability penalty, not ability damage. If it did ability damage they could lose the ability to cast higher level spells. It would however reduce the DC of their spells by 1 for every 2 points of penalties they take.So it is another useless spell
EDIT: on a second thought, how does it relate with this? It says ability penalties counts as damage with the only difference that they cannot drop you to 0
Some spells and abilities cause you to take an ability penalty for a limited amount of time. While in effect, these penalties function just like ability damage, but they cannot cause you to fall unconscious or die. In essence, penalties cannot decrease your ability score to less than 1.Paizo PRD link.
Sorry, I used incorrect terminology. Ability drain not damage could cause you to lose the ability to cast. Basically ability penalty = ability damage != ability drain.
Yiroep posted the rules for ability damage and drain in his post above.
Also, it's not worthless. Imagine you've just caused a -8 penalty to a sorcerer's charisma. Now every spell he casts has the DC reduced by 4, which is a 20% increase in your chance to succeed on the saving throw. It's just not instagibtheopposingcaster powerful.
Get a spellcasting buddy use ego whip on your target's wisdom have your buddy cast something nasty on the reduced will save target (say dominate monster) and win
Looking at touch of idiocy, that seems to imply that the penalty is sufficient to prevent casting if it drops the ability to an 'equivalent' total.
Since a 'penalty' counts as 'damage' for such purposes, then damage does affect your ability to use powers requiring a requisite ability number.
Unless you are trying to imply that touch of idiocy is somehow super-special and the only time or power in the game that makes a penalty react in such a manner.
Errata: In the first sentence change 'seems to imply' to 'specifically says'.
It's likely to be super-special, actually.
Touch of idiocy was from 3.5. Since the ability damage mechanics were changed, they altered the spell so it had roughly the same function in pathfinder despite the different ruleset.
Besides, if it wasn't super special, they wouldn't need to call out the effect. It would be naturally implied.
So, if I remember correctly, Undead use their Charisma scores to calculate their HP, right?
So, if I remember correctly, Undead use their Charisma scores to calculate their HP, right?Most don't, but there are types and specific undeads that do.
What? Yes they do. It's one of the traits of the Undead creature type, so they do unless noted otherwise.