Multiweapon fighting and Haste


Rules Questions


So Hero Lab is messing me up.

If Im a 6th level rage alchemist with 2 vestigial arms and wielding 4 sawtooth sabres I should have 4 attacks.

If hasted that only increases by one, which is the main hand weapon attack correct?

Hero lab is telling me ALL my weapons get an extra attack with haste.


well your first problem is vestigial arms don't grant extra attack.

to answer your question assuming it was legal yes only one arm gets an extra attack with haste and it would be the one you add your full str bonus too most likely for damage


Haste gives you 1 extra attack period, you can use it with virtually attack option you have to get an extra attack with it.

But Koshimo is right, vestigial arms do not grant any extra attacks. Therefore you only have 2 attacks that you can make. You can wield 4 weapons, but only 2 arms can actually attack. They can make iterative attacks as normal.


Thats extremely confusing and doesnt make sense to me.

But thanks for the info.


Quote:
Vestigial Arm (Ex): The alchemist gains a new arm (left or right) on his torso. The arm is fully under his control and cannot be concealed except with magic or bulky clothing. The arm does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round, though the arm can wield a weapon and make attacks as part of the alchemist's attack routine (using two-weapon fighting). The arm can manipulate or hold items as well as the alchemist's original arms (for example, allowing the alchemist to use one hand to wield a weapon, another hand to hold a potion, and the third hand to throw a bomb). The arm has its own “hand” and “ring” magic item slots (though the alchemist can still only wear two rings and two hand magic items at a time). An alchemist may take this discovery up to two times.

What about that is confusing? You can use them attack if you other hands are occupied. You could use 1 to wield a shield for you (since it's not an attack). You could use a 2nd one to hold a wand or a potion or something like that. They're useful, but not extra attacks per round useful.


Its confusing because if you have a weapon in the hand, why cant you attack with it?

It just doesnt make sense to me.

Especially because after it says "Extra Attack" it says you can wield a weapon and attack with it as part of a alchemist's attack...

Its just confusing to me, thats all.


well hope this cleared it up. The simplest way to figure it out is "pretend you didn't have any extra arms when you figure out your attack, now you can make that kind of attack"


There's always the feat multiweapon fighting.


which doesn't work for the vestigial arms


If multiweapon fighting works like and replaces two weapon fighting. And two weapon fighting gives "extra" attacks with offhand weapons.

Then it wont work.

Correct?


TheIronwolf wrote:

If multiweapon fighting works like and replaces two weapon fighting. And two weapon fighting gives "extra" attacks with offhand weapons.

Then it wont work.

Correct?

This is where you're misinformed

the TWF feat does not grant extra attacks, it only reduces the penalty for "fighting this way".

similarly, MWF does not grant extra attacks, but only reduces the penalties.

The extra attack potential comes from having full-functioning "hands", which vestigial arms don't grant.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Assume no TWF feats, but two vestigial arms. Here's what you're holding in your arms:

1 A longsword
2 A dagger
3 A battle axe
4 A shortsword

You can attack with any two of these using fighting with two weapons. What you can't do is attack with three of them.


Chemlak wrote:

Assume no TWF feats, but two vestigial arms. Here's what you're holding in your arms:

1 A longsword
2 A dagger
3 A battle axe
4 A shortsword

You can attack with any two of these using fighting with two weapons. What you can't do is attack with three of them.

Even with TWF or MWF that's all you could do.

It should be noted that all of them still threaten.


TheIronwolf wrote:

Its confusing because if you have a weapon in the hand, why cant you attack with it?

It just doesnt make sense to me.

Especially because after it says "Extra Attack" it says you can wield a weapon and attack with it as part of a alchemist's attack...

Its just confusing to me, thats all.

Because the rules say so, and because the Devs didn't want the ability to be that strong. The logic to it is balance.

But they give you an option to use it in attack, because you may be disarmed of a weapon in your normal hand. You may not have a weapon to use with that hand. You may not have both normal arms (I'm not sure if there's actually anything that causes that anymore, but it's not impossible). It just doesn't grant you extra attacks beyond what a normal creature of you type should be able to make.


Archaeik wrote:
Chemlak wrote:

Assume no TWF feats, but two vestigial arms. Here's what you're holding in your arms:

1 A longsword
2 A dagger
3 A battle axe
4 A shortsword

You can attack with any two of these using fighting with two weapons. What you can't do is attack with three of them.

Even with TWF or MWF that's all you could do.

It should be noted that all of them still threaten.

And with Haste you would gain a bonus attack at full BAB and Str to damage from any of them. Even if you did not attack with that arm/weapon during your full attack.


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Maps Subscriber

If you want a flavorful reason, think of it as a brain limitation.

You've granted yourself an extra arm and learned to manipulate it. But a humanoid just isn't capable of coordinating that many actions at the same time.

With practice (i.e. BAB >= 6 or 11), anyone can learn to juggle more strikes in the same time period, but doing so while also coordinating a third arm to attack is just too much for a simple bilateral-focused brain.


GinoA wrote:

If you want a flavorful reason, think of it as a brain limitation.

You've granted yourself an extra arm and learned to manipulate it. But a humanoid just isn't capable of coordinating that many actions at the same time.

With practice (i.e. BAB >= 6 or 11), anyone can learn to juggle more strikes in the same time period, but doing so while also coordinating a third arm to attack is just too much for a simple bilateral-focused brain.

Seconded.


GinoA wrote:

If you want a flavorful reason, think of it as a brain limitation.

You've granted yourself an extra arm and learned to manipulate it. But a humanoid just isn't capable of coordinating that many actions at the same time.

With practice (i.e. BAB >= 6 or 11), anyone can learn to juggle more strikes in the same time period, but doing so while also coordinating a third arm to attack is just too much for a simple bilateral-focused brain.

Isnt that what Multiweapon fighting is for? Training your brain to do it?

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

An alchemist isn't skilled enough to use his extra arms fast enough to fight with them in a combo. Just because you have feet doesn't mean you're good enough to punch and kick at the same time.

It takes a human being their whole life to learn how to use their limbs effectively. You grew your extra arms just last week!


TheIronwolf wrote:
GinoA wrote:

If you want a flavorful reason, think of it as a brain limitation.

You've granted yourself an extra arm and learned to manipulate it. But a humanoid just isn't capable of coordinating that many actions at the same time.

With practice (i.e. BAB >= 6 or 11), anyone can learn to juggle more strikes in the same time period, but doing so while also coordinating a third arm to attack is just too much for a simple bilateral-focused brain.

Isnt that what Multiweapon fighting is for? Training your brain to do it?

It represents a creature that always had more than 2 arms (and therefore has a more complex motor cortex and a lifetime of experience of using them) having the training/experience to fight with multiple weapons with less penalties.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
TheIronwolf wrote:

Its confusing because if you have a weapon in the hand, why cant you attack with it?

Because they are vestigial arms, which work like mostly crippled arms, not fully functional limbs.

Liberty's Edge

To address the other part of your post:

TheIronwolf wrote:
Hero lab is telling me ALL my weapons get an extra attack with haste.

What Hero Lab is telling you is for each of your weapons, if you used that weapon exclusively, you'd get an extra attack. Hero Lab is not actually aware of your two- (or multi-) weapon fighting ability or decisions. The best it can do is apply the appropriate penalties if you equip a weapon in each hand, but it will still show the extra haste attack on every weapon.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Once again, we have an excellent example of why Herolab is NOT a tool for rules enforcement. Spells ONLY give you what they say they give you. In the case of Haste you get ONE extra attack added to a full attack option. Period.


LazarX wrote:
In the case of Haste you get ONE extra attack added to a full attack option. Period.

This


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If you want a RAW-legal way to get more than two fully-functional arms with a standard PC race, you need ten levels of summoner: Aspect allows the summoner to apply 2 evolution points to themself; select the Limbs (Arms) evolution.

A synthesis summoner can "wear their monster suit" to get an extra set of arms earlier, but the eidolon can be dispelled.


So lets take this alchemist I have.

Hes got bombs in main hands, sword in off hand.

Two Vestigial arms.

One arm has a potion, one a wand.

Can I throw bomb, attack with sword, drink potion and activate wand in one round?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
TheIronwolf wrote:

So lets take this alchemist I have.

Hes got bombs in main hands, sword in off hand.

Two Vestigial arms.

One arm has a potion, one a wand.

Can I throw bomb, attack with sword, drink potion and activate wand in one round?

No... you don't have enough actions to pull that off, no matter how many limbs you stick on yourself.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Card Game, Companion, Lost Omens, Maps, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber

No.

Action economy limits you to one standard action and one move action.

Each of the four activities you list above require a standard action; you can't do more than one in a round.


TheIronwolf wrote:

So lets take this alchemist I have.

Hes got bombs in main hands, sword in off hand.

Two Vestigial arms.

One arm has a potion, one a wand.

Can I throw bomb, attack with sword, drink potion and activate wand in one round?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say... You need to take some time out and read the rules to get a better grasp of the game mechanics instead of relying on the program to do it for you.


TheIronwolf wrote:
GinoA wrote:

If you want a flavorful reason, think of it as a brain limitation.

You've granted yourself an extra arm and learned to manipulate it. But a humanoid just isn't capable of coordinating that many actions at the same time.

With practice (i.e. BAB >= 6 or 11), anyone can learn to juggle more strikes in the same time period, but doing so while also coordinating a third arm to attack is just too much for a simple bilateral-focused brain.

Isnt that what Multiweapon fighting is for? Training your brain to do it?

No, MWF trains you to do it better, it does not unlock the additional offhand attacks if you don't already possess them.

Sovereign Court

Skylancer4 wrote:
TheIronwolf wrote:

So lets take this alchemist I have.

Hes got bombs in main hands, sword in off hand.

Two Vestigial arms.

One arm has a potion, one a wand.

Can I throw bomb, attack with sword, drink potion and activate wand in one round?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say... You need to take some time out and read the rules to get a better grasp of the game mechanics instead of relying on the program to do it for you.

This.

The most purely combat oriented thing you could probably do with a vestigial arm is hold a shield. Which would be a bit handy (pun intended) - use normal TWF and get a shield bonus - no Improved Shield Bash needed and get better weapons.


Charon's Little Helper wrote:
The most purely combat oriented thing you could probably do with a vestigial arm is hold a shield. Which would be a bit handy (pun intended) - use normal TWF and get a shield bonus - no Improved Shield Bash needed and get better weapons.

I think it's indeed a corner case. While it feels like smart rule use, there are at least two arguments against it:

If the GM allows using a shield with the third arm, it's difficult to justify why it can't be used for a weapon. After all, a shield has to be moved around also and shouldn't impact your weapon swings.

Additionally, something like +2 AC for the price of a (class) feat is already a very good deal. And it will become much more than +2 later.

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