Okay, so what feats are the "most optimal" for an oracle up through lv 11? go ahead and assume non-human raceSo... you think blasting is optimal. That definitely says a lot., a lot has changed since the core rule book and treatmonk wizard guide was released. You can do amazing things with blasting now, blasting is the most powerful option in the game now.
if you are building the most optimal oracle, DP is a suboptimal choice.
optimal oracle.
traits - wayang spell hunter (fireball), magical linage child of havoc (adds 1 point of force damage to your damage spells).1. spell focus
3. spell specialization
5. dazing metamagic
7. preferred spell (fireball)
9. varisian tattoo
11. greater spell/ focusI choose fireball but any 2nd or 3rd level spell will do just fine. the feats will slighty depending on the spell. but you would never waste a feat on DP.
for instance if you choose a cold spell, you also pick up the rime metamagic.
Okay, so you have to be the flame mystery or have the burning hands curse to gain fireball.
how are you getting three traits? Also you're aware that the 1 damage is to the total, not one per die or something like that, it will always be just 1 extra damage.Your build changed really quickly, was there a problem with your first?
You took preferred spell without having the pre-reqs.
you don't have intensified to varisian tattoo doesn't do anything for you at the level you're taking it.
Really it looks like you're a poor man's blaster wizard
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Okay, so what feats are the "most optimal" for an oracle up through lv 11? go ahead and assume non-human raceSo... you think blasting is optimal. That definitely says a lot., a lot has changed since the core rule book and treatmonk wizard guide was released. You can do amazing things with blasting now, blasting is the most powerful option in the game now.
if you are building the most optimal oracle, DP is a suboptimal choice.
optimal oracle.
traits - wayang spell hunter (fireball), magical linage child of havoc (adds 1 point of force damage to your damage spells).1. spell focus
3. spell specialization
5. dazing metamagic
7. preferred spell (fireball)
9. varisian tattoo
11. greater spell/ focusI choose fireball but any 2nd or 3rd level spell will do just fine. the feats will slighty depending on the spell. but you would never waste a feat on DP.
for instance if you choose a cold spell, you also pick up the rime metamagic.
So a dazing fireball at level 11 with a DC 2 higher than every caster can cast it at, with +3 CL after all that investment, where an oracle at that level, with Divine Protection, would likely have a +5-6 to save against the spell, using a single feat. I don't know how you think that evens out. Just compare spell Focus and greater spell focus, it's 2 feats to boost DCs by 2, Divine Protection will likely boost a clerics saves by 2-5, and an oracles saves by 3-15. And you consider greater/spell focus to be good feats, how is this even remotely balanced?
Why would you get evasive? It doesn't work anymore. You never have any panache points, and evasive only functions when you have at least one.
My problem with the Divine Protection nerf is that it was too extreme. The feat went from "obviously good" and "lots of people will take that feat" to "obviously bad" and "nobody will take that feat."
There was no middle ground for them.
Giving CHA bonus to saves a number of times per day that increases as you grow in power or improve your CHA? Maybe. Giving permanent CHA bonus to ONE save, selected at the time of taking the feat? Maybe. Giving CHA bonus but capped at +4? Maybe.
In any of those cases, and probably there are a few dozen other ways to handle it that would have been agreeable too, I would have shrugged, accepted the change, and tried to work it into my character. But this change? Down to a flat 1x/day, declared before rolling, and it eats my swift/immediate action? I'd rather just retrain the feat. That nerf is too much and makes it extremely situational -- and very often there is no way to know which situation is the right one! I suppose a person could reserve it for will saves, since those are generally the ones that spell doom. However, it's all a giant question mark, and I cannot fathom how it will be reliably useful on my characters now.
I just have to swap it out.
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Hear attempted rewrite:
Divine Protection
Prereq: 5 ranks knowledge(religion), same alignment as worshiped deity.
Benefit: You may reroll natural 1s on saving throws a number of times per day equal to your charisma modifier.
Hear attempted rewrite:
Divine Protection
Prereq: 5 ranks knowledge(religion), same alignment as worshiped deity.Benefit: You may reroll natural 1s on saving throws a number of times per day equal to your charisma modifier.
This would be more worthwhile than the current feat, simply because it does not use action economy.
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[
I probably should have said "every charisma based class who was willing to invest one level of an appropiate class to qualify for it", but the point is the same.
One level? How do you get 2nd level spells from one level?
Hear attempted rewrite:
Divine Protection
Prereq: 5 ranks knowledge(religion), same alignment as worshiped deity.Benefit: You may reroll natural 1s on saving throws a number of times per day equal to your charisma modifier.
Hilariously, this would be a fantastic feat for Paladins.
[]
My straight Oracle is was getting CHA to all saves before Divine Protection ever came out, though admittedly Divine Protection was a much easier and earlier way to achieving that.
How was that?
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Hear attempted rewrite:
Divine Protection
Prereq: 5 ranks knowledge(religion), same alignment as worshiped deity.Benefit: You may reroll natural 1s on saving throws a number of times per day equal to your charisma modifier.
What are you doing, Rhedyn? That would make the feat not garbage for martials. You know that's not acceptable.
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Hear attempted rewrite:
Divine Protection
Prereq: 5 ranks knowledge(religion), same alignment as worshiped deity.Benefit: You may reroll natural 1s on saving throws a number of times per day equal to your charisma modifier.
Very niche but arguably worthwhile for the distinguished adventurer with horrible dice rolling skills who knows that mathematically he can only fail most saves on a 1. It's a feat that actually serves a purpose and that people would consider taking, so it is a million times better than the current version of Divine Protection.
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So talking about how to change Divine Protection into something usable made me think about Battle Cry. I didn't remember seeing anything about it in the errata, nor have I heard it mentioned, so I went back and double checked. Goddamn it, Battle Cry was murdered too. That actually makes me angry.
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Well... On a more positive note, not all of the errata was bad... Given proficiency with all crossbows and SNA and Remove Diseases to the Shaman were good calls .
It's just that Paizo really, really realy doesn't know how to handle nerfs. They can't just subtly/slightly change options that are considered too good. They simply Crane Wing-nuke it into nothingness and consider that to be good game design and a job well done.
As for Divine Protection... They could simply give us a feat that allow characters to use Cha instead of Wis for Will saves. There! It's balanced and makes viable many character options that weren't really feasible before.
Instead they gave us the pointlessly restrictive Steadfast Personality and the horribly-overpowered-then-horribly-underpowered Divine Protection.
All in all, one step forward, three steps back...
So talking about how to change Divine Protection into something usable made me think about Battle Cry. I didn't remember seeing anything about it in the errata, nor have I heard it mentioned, so I went back and double checked. G#+##~n it, Battle Cry was murdered too. That actually makes me angry.
What was the Battle Cry nerf?
So talking about how to change Divine Protection into something usable made me think about Battle Cry. I didn't remember seeing anything about it in the errata, nor have I heard it mentioned, so I went back and double checked. G#+##~n it, Battle Cry was murdered too. That actually makes me angry.What was the Battle Cry nerf?
The save reroll you get by dismissing the effect was changed so it only works versus fear saves.
Contributor
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So talking about how to change Divine Protection into something usable made me think about Battle Cry. I didn't remember seeing anything about it in the errata, nor have I heard it mentioned, so I went back and double checked. G#+##~n it, Battle Cry was murdered too. That actually makes me angry.What was the Battle Cry nerf?
They changed/clarified* it to specify that the reroll was only against fear effects.
*(choose whichever you prefer)
They changed/clarified* it to specify that the reroll was only against fear effects.
*(choose whichever you prefer)
It mostly means Battle Cry went from a good feat to a bad feat. It's not quite garbage tier though, so there's that. Maybe it's something worth taking at really low levels and than training out.
They changed/clarified* it to specify that the reroll was only against fear effects.
*(choose whichever you prefer)
It mostly means Battle Cry went from a good feat to a bad feat.
Toss it in the pile with the other never take feats...
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The save reroll you get by dismissing the effect was changed so it only works versus fear saves.So talking about how to change Divine Protection into something usable made me think about Battle Cry. I didn't remember seeing anything about it in the errata, nor have I heard it mentioned, so I went back and double checked. G#+##~n it, Battle Cry was murdered too. That actually makes me angry.What was the Battle Cry nerf?
I have two responses to that:
- Oh no. I play a character that has both Divine Protection and Battle Cry, and this double-whammy super-nerfs my character. If the GM imposes this errata and won't give me a free re-training or something, my character is severely diminished.
- Oh good. Good only because if they only nerfed Divine Protection, my fellow players would flag me as a whiner for not getting awesome saves. But when I tell them that they are also going to lose their free re-rolls from Battle Cry, there is going to be havoc at the table. This will spark huge empathy for my character, make it a team issue, and force everyone to lobby for a sensible resolution.
My version of "sensible resolution" is probably going to be to lobby for us to use a superior revision that one of YOU guys have posted here. So please, keep the potential revisions of Battle Cry and Divine Protection coming!
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Wow, this really makes me re-examine my purchasing patterns for paizo products. Half of my book is now invalid, and many of the better designed options were removed for seemingly arbitrary reasons... I'm sad I pre-ordered the new Occult stuff, or I'd be making different choices.
Honestly, quality has been going down for a while now, and despite loyally purchasing product for some time (I own all the non-setting hardbacks) I'm going to stop buying until the game takes a turn toward better quality control and cuts out some of the fat that has accumulated in the system.
Off to Amazon to write a hateful 1 star review for invalidating an entire book...
outshyn: If you're looking for a non-hosed Battle cry, just use it as it used to be but make the re-rolling of a save an immediate action and it ends the effect on that person. Maybe drop the save vs fear if the DM still thinks it a bit strong.
Mark has written some absolutely amazing material for Pathfinder and has an amazing eye for balance and for the game's internal math.
I honestly can't see any of the really bad decisions as being his.
Mark has written some absolutely amazing material for Pathfinder and has an amazing eye for balance and for the game's internal math.
I honestly can't see any of the really bad decisions as being his.
it must be other marks fault. (i honestly don't remember what anyone does in paizo besides siefer)
Well... On a more positive note, not all of the errata was bad... Given proficiency with all crossbows and SNA and Remove Diseases to the Shaman were good calls .
Where did they give Shamans proficiency with all crossbows?
I'm guessing he's referring to the Bolt Ace.Well... On a more positive note, not all of the errata was bad... Given proficiency with all crossbows and SNA and Remove Diseases to the Shaman were good calls .Where did they give Shamans proficiency with all crossbows?
Yeah, editing mistake. ^^
Bolt Ace got proficiency with all crossbows. Shaman got SNA and Remove Diseases. Oddly enough, those changes were already listed in my houserules document.
but in a home game, who cares? If your GM will allow you to play a fully OP synthesist summoner, then why not?
Maybe the other players care. And maybe they decline to play in a game with such a ridiculous broken mess that is the original summoner.
I would.
The problem with a FAQ thread is that some of these issues are just too large and varied for a single FAQ thread. My current issue of what needs to be redone is Brawler's Flurry. But the number of issues it has is far too large for a single FAQ.
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So discussion of extant classes and options is no longer allowed then? Since we can't discuss the contributions of any specific employee.
Does that extend to freelancers?