Finished my first read through of the second round of the document, was hoping to open up discussions on what was good, what was bad, and what still needs work.
First, absolutely love the Social Talents. Most of them are great effects that are sometimes useful, but not all and having them be optional instead of baked into the class is a very nice touch. Only real issues I had at first read through is that Quick Change still happens too late for me to care about it, 7th level is pretty deep into a character. It should be available as late as third if there is a restriction at all.
Avenger Specialization: painful. The only real difference I noticed that I cared about was that armor skin does exactly what it should. That said, I still am very disappointed because it still has all the problems it had before when it comes to comparing it to other full BAB classes. He needs bigger HD, or some other form of defense like adding a monk like bonus to AC. He's also useless at first level, since his super amazing class ability of pseudo full BAB is the only thing he gets. He still has no way of improving his damage outside of Fist of the Avenger, which doesn't even include the TWF feat, and has such minuscule damage increase that it doesn't actually help you to take this talent. 1/2 fighter level for feats is okay, if the fighter feats that I want weren't all damage based and not even come online really until 8th level. Having signature weapon exist separately should scale at full fighter level and include Greater Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Specialization to keep up with other classes otherwise this class really has very little use over other martials aside from Mad Rush which is still the best part about thie class. Overall very dissapointed.
Stalker Specialization: d8's once per round yay!!! If the d4's got upgraded to d6's then this would make a lot more sense and be more useful. Right now not a fan. This one has so many mroe good talents though that it seems like the devs paid a lot more attention to this specialization than the avenger and it shows and makes me sad. If they are going to keep this one as a separate specialization from the avenger, the only thing I would want is the upgrade of d4's to d6's. That new feinting ability is awesome.
Warlock Specialization: Only real difference as stated in the announcement is the Mystic Bolt, which I highly approve of. Unfortunately it isn't free with the class and has to be taken multiple times, and basically requires Arcane Striking to do worthwile damage to use. Being a ranged touch makes it not really important to add enhancement bonuses to hit, so not to concerned about that, but I think that players should get this for free coupled with their Arcane Specializaion, and Caster's Defense. Otherwise this class commits the crime of having false options because you basically need to spend talents on those things just to use your bloody class features.
Zealot Specialization: I love all the fixes here. The best part is that this class finally does what I wanted all the other classes to do: give an option based on your specialization at first level. Why can't the Warlock get a single element of mystic bolt like the zealot can get a Divine Power at first level? The divine powers are all good and I especially love that there is an option for druidic/ranger/hunter spellcasting baked in. This went from being my least favorite specialization to my most favorite because I can now make a druidic paladin.
When it comes to the spellcasting specializations, I am super disappointed in the decision to keep the spellcasting separated with talents. I now have to waste my class resources just to gain access to something I should be allowed to have anyway. And that takes away from my ability to select more cool powers that have been written because I simply cannot afford to choose them. Awful decision. If the dev team insists on this terrible idea, I purpose a fix that allows the vigilante to select any talent at every single level, social or specialization, but he can only select specialization talents if he actually takes that specialization.
This actually comes close to fixing a large number of problems with all the specializations.
tl;dr: Class needs more real options, and needs to waste less resources on things other classes get for free.
Stealing a list of things that "needed fixing" (not mine) from a previous discussion:
1) Social Identity needs to be, like similar classes, the main (or at least a major) focus of the Class and gain lots of useful abilities unique to itself. Specializations and Talents are all well and good, but only as a supplement to a solid basic architecture.2) Specializations themselves need to gain more than just 1 Ability and then be nothing but Talents thereafter. They need to be treated like the Mini-Classes they're trying to be, and that means that they need to follow the "no empty levels" theory that every other class follows.
3) The whole "Not-Fighter/Slayer," "Not-Rogue," "Not-Magus," and "Not-Inquisitor" setup of Specializations needs to be thrown into the shredder, and then burn the shredder. In order to end the ceaseless "why not take X instead?" questions, the 4 Specializations need to be designs and ideas unique to the Vigilante.
4) The Devs need to realize that shoving a Bloodline-like ability onto an otherwise-NPC class with only a handful on inconsequential, highly-situational effects sparsely distributed among the Levels does not put the Class on the same level of use as all the other Classes developed thus far. Making both the Social and Vigilante Personas equal in power to the Pre-Unchained Rogue - basically 75% of a balanced class - would add together to make a balanced, useful Base Class.
Point 1: Hey! Social identity has its own retinue of abilities now!
...Oh. Wait. They were originally basic parts of the class and then got turned into even more talents.
Point 2: Still not a thing.
Point 3: Also still not a thing.
Point 4: Um... not sure if this one has been met or not, but given the track record for meeting these fixes (that someone else made a list of and had compiled from numerous conversations with actual players [I think]), I'm guessing not.
And that's with my read-through, which I also finished about ten minutes ago.
I really don't know if I like the direction these "fixes" went. Although, the zealot divine source thing is really nifty.
I want to like this class - a modular adventurer. The problem is, as master_marshmallow has said, there isn't enough free for this class. Points 2 and 3 on that list REALLY need addressing, otherwise this class will just be super silly.
And I would really like to see a talent-based casting class work. It's a nifty idea, but it is being done here in a really taxing and disappointing way.
/2cp
Seeing Avenger basically not change at all was criminal as aside from the Zealot it needed the most work, and it got the least.
Zealot looks interesting now, the Mystic Bolts change was good for Warlocks, both need to spend less talents on their spellcasting. M1k31 brought up combo'd packages of 2&3, 4&5, I like this a lot better.
Of course there is always the option of just giving the class the 6 spell levels it deserves by default, and then actually coming up with more useful talents?
Stalker looks OK. Could be better with regular sized sneak attack dice, and I still think their to-hit is low.
Of course there is always the option of just giving the class the 6 spell levels it deserves by default, and then actually coming up with more useful talents?
This. Simple, elegant, and makes those specializations not enormous traps.
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I think if they want players to purposely only gain access to lower levels of spells, then doing so should grant them higher BAB like paladins, rangers, and bloodragers.
If that's not the intention, then spending talents to progress in spellcasting needs to go.
I love that intimidate is a class skill for all specilizations now.
Forgot to mention that.
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If stalker and avenger aren't getting spells, then I don't want Warlock and Zealot to get the same number of talents AND spells for free.
They should. You don't spite two specializations because one of the other specializations is subpar and the other is just plain bad.
Focus on building Stalker and Avenger up, not keeping Warlock and Zealot down.
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We haven't play tested the round two characters yet, between fanciness with new mystic bolt, and the options Divine Power provides, I think trading off some talents for magic is a good deal.
I don't want the stalker and avenger to cast spells, some of us like our heroes to be mundane but still be capable of doing cool stuff. I'd happily see the Avenger get some defensive boosts, and some more damage boosts, but I'd like to see him get some flexibility too. Some riders on his attacks, or strikes similar to an Unchained Monk.
We haven't play tested the round two characters yet, between fanciness with new mystic bolt, and the options Divine Power provides, I think trading off some talents for magic is a good deal.
I don't want the stalker and avenger to cast spells, some of us like our heroes to be mundane but still be capable of doing cool stuff. I'd happily see the Avenger get some defensive boosts, and some more damage boosts, but I'd like to see him get some flexibility too. Some riders on his attacks, or strikes similar to an Unchained Monk.
They both get spellcasting I by default, so that plan is out.
I've been all about combining the Avenger and Stalker and compiling their pools of talents and abilities from the start.
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We haven't play tested the round two characters yet, between fanciness with new mystic bolt, and the options Divine Power provides, I think trading off some talents for magic is a good deal.
I don't want the stalker and avenger to cast spells, some of us like our heroes to be mundane but still be capable of doing cool stuff. I'd happily see the Avenger get some defensive boosts, and some more damage boosts, but I'd like to see him get some flexibility too. Some riders on his attacks, or strikes similar to an Unchained Monk.
I'm one of the few people doing high level Avenger testing, so I'm not sure why you're trying to explain to me about Mundane heroes?
I can be a primarily martial player, be playtesting the Avenger at high level and still recognize that Warlock and Zealot should just get their spells. Avenger and Stalker should be buffed to compensate.
I think Mystic Bolt should be part of the Warlock chassis as an Eldritch blast of energy, and adding energy types to it should cost a talent.
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I like that changing Guises starts at 1 Minute and then gets downgraded to a Full Round at lv7, though that's only IF you burn a Talent for that.
It's a definite improvement over the previous version, but I think it still needs some work, though nothing NEARLY as major as before.
1) It should be hard-baked into the class that at lv5 changing Personas is reduced from a Minute to a Full-Round Action; at lv10 it's a Standard, at lv15 it's a Move Action, and at lv20 it's a Swift Action. At the very least, it needs to be a basic function of the class that changing personas takes less time as you level.
2) Many Guises at lv5, Everyman at lv11, and Any Guise at lv17 seems a little stifling. Perhaps Many Guises at lv3, Everyman at lv7, and Any Guise at lv11, although another two abilities at lv11, lv15, and then Any Guise at lv19 would also work.
3) If anything, I think the Appearance abilities should be Talents, and the Guises abilities should be hard-baked into the Class. The entire point of the class is about hiding your identity for whatever reasons, so it should therefore be a major default point of the class that you're automatically going to be really good at disguising and hiding your identity. The Appearance abilities are peripheral to this idea, and are more suited to a specific style of play, rather than a general idea - that's why the should be talents.
4) I also think there should be something like a Talent that gives Skill Focus as a Bonus Feat, the same way the Weapon Training Rogue Talent gives Weapon Focus as a Bonus Feat. Whether it be limited to something like Bluff, Diplomacy, or Intimidiate. Probably also a few other Bonus Feats like Deceitful, etc.
5) The 4 Specializations are STILL basically muted copies of existing classes, which isn't a great thing in the slightest; there's STILL going to be no ends of "why don't you just take 'X' class?" as a result. Adding in four unique ideas, like making certain Prestige Classes into base classes via Specializations, or something radically new like a Spontaneous Alchemist, would be much more preferable than the current setup.
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When all is said and done, though, there's a lot more reason to actually spend time in a Social Persona now.
I still think that if Specializations are going to be treated like Bloodlines & Mysteries that the Social Persona needs to get a few more upgrades, but at least we're squarely on the right path now.
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Since we're on the subject let's talk Avenger though.
Key problems with Avenger, small hit dice, poor offensive capabilities compared to other full BAB classes, lacks spells, lacks utility, has a bad save in Reflex, lacks any defensive options.
Fixes:
At level one by taking Avenger you should upgrade to D10 HD and trade Fort for Reflex for save progression.
Avenger shouldn't get spells but look at what other classes get because they don't have them. Rage and Rage Powers. Challenge and Orders. Weapon and armor training. Martial Flexibility, Flurry, and Ki nonsense. What does the Avenger get?
Other classes that are full BAB have ways to modify their ability to hit and amplify their damage. Smite, Favored Enemy, Etc. Again Avenger gets nothing.
Ergo, allow Avengers access to Challenge. The idea of a masked vigilante challenging his Nemesis is iconic and helps fix their damage woes.
In other areas the Avenger talent are just largely uninspired and makes it feel like a cheap fighter knock off or don't sufficiently provide enough power, how is suckerpunch unchanged from its first incarnation? It's a trap talent. Less of that, more real choices that don't sacrifice effectiveness for thematics.
The social talents kind of blow because there's barely any new powers but overall I think Its good design as it optens up the social persona to do quite a bit. I just hope that future social talents allow you to provide more prep work for your vigilante persona, like an alchemical inventor or some kind of moneymaking mechanic.
I like the sub-categories of divine power. Mostly because they reflect my opinions about origin stories.
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The social talents kind of blow because there's barely any new powers but overall I think Its good design as it optens up the social persona to do quite a bit. I just hope that future social talents allow you to provide more prep work for your vigilante persona, like an alchemical inventor or some kind of moneymaking mechanic.
It's very disconcerting that there are only 2 social talents that are open at level 1 and both are previous abilities...
as an idea, why not create a feat that allows you to take an additional talent, but this feat can only be used with the zealot and warlock? that way the player can choose to make his spellcasting into a much less costly feat tax.
I love how the Warlock's familiar now also has a social guise. :)
I'm a bit surprised by the damage downgrade to Mystic Bolt. But getting to use bolts in both hands is nice.
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Lets be honest though the HD doesnt need to change as this is just a more versatile rogue minus the rogue abilities. Batman was still weak in that his armor couldnt stop a sword thrust through it and he was still just a man so if he got stabbed pretty sure he was going down.
You want more free abilities for a class that already gets quite a bit at first level.
Dual Identity
Seamless Guise
Social Talent
Specilization granting your first Vigilante talent
Full Martial Weapon Proficiency
Medium Armor
and 6+Int Skill Points.I like the idea that you need to spend talents on the spellcasting, makes you truly specialized. for example I would say Super man is a 3rd level caster, Focusing more on strength and speed rather than Magic. Doctor Strange is a pure 6th level spell vigilante as he is some what weak.
The Stalker's d8/d4 SA dice is in line with the Knife Masters SA dice. Both require a specific tool/mechanic for it to work and can still get it all the time but at a reduced effect.
The fact that they gave the Avenger a Full BAB should be enough to satisfy you as their intent for this class was to be a hit from the shadows Hit and Run type class in all specializations. if you think was supposed to be a pure Martial class you people are all crazy and I think your stuck on the fact that each specialization is its own type of class. Avenger=Martial, Stalker= Martial/ROguish, Warlock=Arcane, Zealot=Divine. now while thats how they built them the class as a whole it more of a Skill Monkey/Utility class and falls into none of those other categories.
Thus I see no other adjustments needed for this class.
If you think people are going to opt into playing a worse fighter then I don't know what to say. If an Avenger is supposed to hit and run from the shadows show me all these great talents I get to do so. They don't exist. Suckerpunch and Armor Skin doesn't suddenly make you some great assassin.
The class is not a skill monkey, the class is not a utility class, unless you make it that way. Having 6+int skills doesn't suddenly make my Avenger comparable to an Investigator. Ever. He's not even comparable to a Slayer.
Warlock and Zealot you could argue. Stalker is still just a worse unchained rogue with some neat tricks, and Avenger is just a bad fighter, which says something given the current state of fighters.
I'm a bit surprised by the damage downgrade to Mystic Bolt. But getting to use bolts in both hands is nice.
Arcane Striking with it will pretty much balance it out, combined with TWF it will do solid damage.
I'm a bit surprised by the damage downgrade to Mystic Bolt. But getting to use bolts in both hands is nice.Arcane Striking with it will pretty much balance it out, combined with TWF it will do solid damage.
I see that now. I hadn't read the announcement before I posted. The other tweaks also counterbalance the reduced damage. I think I like the new version. It certainly clears up a lot of rules confusion that existed before.
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I'm a bit surprised by the damage downgrade to Mystic Bolt. But getting to use bolts in both hands is nice.Arcane Striking with it will pretty much balance it out, combined with TWF it will do solid damage.
That is a lie, it won't balance out because now it has a major weakness that it didnt have before and forces you to pick arcane strike as well as hope you hit those 5 level increments to utilize the buff. You cant deadly aim with it or Power attack, I can only see this argument coming into any sort of comparison at 16th level when Arcane Striker does something. Otherwise it isnt true.
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I'm a bit surprised by the damage downgrade to Mystic Bolt. But getting to use bolts in both hands is nice.Arcane Striking with it will pretty much balance it out, combined with TWF it will do solid damage.That is a lie, it won't balance out because now it has a major weakness that it didnt have before and forces you to pick arcane strike as well as hope you hit those 5 level increments to utilize the buff. You cant deadly aim with it or Power attack, I can only see this argument coming into any sort of comparison at 16th level when Arcane Striker does something. Otherwise it isnt true.
Why couldn't you deadly aim with the new version?
I'm pretty sure you could, as well as Rapid shot, and two weapon fight.
Since it targets touch AC, those penalties aren't really going to reduce your damage anyway.
I like the idea that you need to spend talents on the spellcasting, makes you truly specialized. for example I would say Super man is a 3rd level caster, Focusing more on strength and speed rather than Magic. Doctor Strange is a pure 6th level spell vigilante as he is some what weak.
Wow... no. Just... no. Stop.
Superman is not even CLOSE to a caster.
Superman is a Kryptonian; ALL his special powers come from being a specific Race. Superman, Supergirl, and Power Girl all have the same 40+ RP Race granting them superpowers. Superboy has some weird Template granting him Psychic abilities on top of Kryptonian ones. Beyond that, Superman is a pretty standard Brawler, MAYBE an Exemplar.
And Doctor Steven Strange, Sorcerer Supreme is definitely NOT only slinging around 6th level spells. Steven Strange is a 9th-level caster without question. You do NOT go toe-to-toe with a being like Dormamu on a regular basis with less than 8th level magic.
Whether or not Doctor Strange is a Wizard or Arcanist IS up for debate, but that he's anything BUT a 9th-level caster isn't.
You REALLY need to readjust your perceptions of superhero characters to a more realistic outlook, man.
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I'm a bit surprised by the damage downgrade to Mystic Bolt. But getting to use bolts in both hands is nice.Arcane Striking with it will pretty much balance it out, combined with TWF it will do solid damage.That is a lie, it won't balance out because now it has a major weakness that it didnt have before and forces you to pick arcane strike as well as hope you hit those 5 level increments to utilize the buff. You cant deadly aim with it or Power attack, I can only see this argument coming into any sort of comparison at 16th level when Arcane Striker does something. Otherwise it isnt true.
Why couldn't you deadly aim with the new version?
I'm pretty sure you could, as well as Rapid shot, and two weapon fight.
Since it targets touch AC, those penalties aren't really going to reduce your damage anyway.
Because it specifically says you cannot affect touch attacks.
You can Do both those things as well but your measly 1d6+5 at 10th level still will take a -4 on top of Cover and whatnot because you had to spend all your feats on just using ranged capability. You underestimate some creatures having Touch and Highly underestimate base 10 resistance.
I'm a bit surprised by the damage downgrade to Mystic Bolt. But getting to use bolts in both hands is nice.Arcane Striking with it will pretty much balance it out, combined with TWF it will do solid damage.That is a lie, it won't balance out because now it has a major weakness that it didnt have before and forces you to pick arcane strike as well as hope you hit those 5 level increments to utilize the buff. You cant deadly aim with it or Power attack, I can only see this argument coming into any sort of comparison at 16th level when Arcane Striker does something. Otherwise it isnt true.
Why couldn't you deadly aim with the new version?
I'm pretty sure you could, as well as Rapid shot, and two weapon fight.
Since it targets touch AC, those penalties aren't really going to reduce your damage anyway.
Deadly Aim doesn't work for touch attacks. But you can get a LOT more hits with it now, and it ignores SR. By my calculations (and as you indicated), with Logan's new changes, average damage from a full attack is going to be much higher than it was.
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Deadly Aim doesn't work for touch attacks. But you can get a LOT more hits with it now, and it ignores SR. By my calculations (and as you indicated), with Logan's new changes, average damage from a full attack is going to be much higher than it was.I'm a bit surprised by the damage downgrade to Mystic Bolt. But getting to use bolts in both hands is nice.Arcane Striking with it will pretty much balance it out, combined with TWF it will do solid damage.That is a lie, it won't balance out because now it has a major weakness that it didnt have before and forces you to pick arcane strike as well as hope you hit those 5 level increments to utilize the buff. You cant deadly aim with it or Power attack, I can only see this argument coming into any sort of comparison at 16th level when Arcane Striker does something. Otherwise it isnt true.
Why couldn't you deadly aim with the new version?
I'm pretty sure you could, as well as Rapid shot, and two weapon fight.
Since it targets touch AC, those penalties aren't really going to reduce your damage anyway.
I play a Warlock on these threads I can tell you it did not up my damage at all. It lowered it. Ignoring SR was a good change that was simply needed. Now if you removed the elemental portion your numbers might be closer to correct.
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I play a Warlock on these threads I can tell you it did not up my damage at all. It lowered it. Ignoring SR was a good change that was simply needed. Now if you removed the elemental portion your numbers might be closer to correct.Deadly Aim doesn't work for touch attacks. But you can get a LOT more hits with it now, and it ignores SR. By my calculations (and as you indicated), with Logan's new changes, average damage from a full attack is going to be much higher than it was.I'm a bit surprised by the damage downgrade to Mystic Bolt. But getting to use bolts in both hands is nice.Arcane Striking with it will pretty much balance it out, combined with TWF it will do solid damage.That is a lie, it won't balance out because now it has a major weakness that it didnt have before and forces you to pick arcane strike as well as hope you hit those 5 level increments to utilize the buff. You cant deadly aim with it or Power attack, I can only see this argument coming into any sort of comparison at 16th level when Arcane Striker does something. Otherwise it isnt true.
Why couldn't you deadly aim with the new version?
I'm pretty sure you could, as well as Rapid shot, and two weapon fight.
Since it targets touch AC, those penalties aren't really going to reduce your damage anyway.
If you pick Acid and Electricity you should be able to bypass almost all resistances as Acid is the least resisted and most things that are resistant aren't to electricity.
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I think the mystic bolt should come as a generic blast, maybe force damage. You can add elements to it with a talent.
If you pick Acid and Electricity you should be able to bypass almost all resistances as Acid is the least resisted and most things that are resistant aren't to electricity.I play a Warlock on these threads I can tell you it did not up my damage at all. It lowered it. Ignoring SR was a good change that was simply needed. Now if you removed the elemental portion your numbers might be closer to correct.Deadly Aim doesn't work for touch attacks. But you can get a LOT more hits with it now, and it ignores SR. By my calculations (and as you indicated), with Logan's new changes, average damage from a full attack is going to be much higher than it was.I'm a bit surprised by the damage downgrade to Mystic Bolt. But getting to use bolts in both hands is nice.Arcane Striking with it will pretty much balance it out, combined with TWF it will do solid damage.That is a lie, it won't balance out because now it has a major weakness that it didnt have before and forces you to pick arcane strike as well as hope you hit those 5 level increments to utilize the buff. You cant deadly aim with it or Power attack, I can only see this argument coming into any sort of comparison at 16th level when Arcane Striker does something. Otherwise it isnt true.
Why couldn't you deadly aim with the new version?
I'm pretty sure you could, as well as Rapid shot, and two weapon fight.
Since it targets touch AC, those penalties aren't really going to reduce your damage anyway.
This would be much easier to do if there wasn't such a huge talent tax on the Warlock to get their spells. As it current stands it's unreasonable to get a second iteration of it before like lvl 16. That's a problem worth addressing, perhaps you should get to pick two elemental types per talent selection.
I think the mystic bolt should come as a generic blast, maybe force damage. You can add elements to it with a talent.
Lol if it did force you'd never need another version. If it comes in a default version it should be fire, since literally everything is resistant to fire.
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What's up with the "X Appearance" line of class features?
If they were talents then that would be fine because some specializations (read: all of them except Avenger) have in class methods of proccing it (Hide in Plain Sight, Invis, and Greater Invis). Unfortunately the Avenger doesn't and essentially has wasted class features. The base class features of the class should be stuff useful for every specialization instead of mostly useless for one.
Avenger only got some talents consolidated, but isn't actually much stronger. Sad.
I wonder though.
Does it now partiallly force mystic bolt lovers to have to go down twf?
which fights for ranged stuff i guess.
Also still painfully competes with spells. Sorta wish it was a lv 2 thing ...I do know that I can now build my snapshot mystic bolter! I'm very happy about that. but it's going to be weird on the way.
Yes one of the downsides to the change is that you now need Rapid Shot and TWF to achieve higher damage than you originally just got. So it comes with a very high feat tax.
Twisting Fear, you deal your reduced sneak attack damage to all you shake/etc, applies 1/round.
Rogue Talent-Combat Talent: You can select combat Feats.
Go Weapon Focus, Dazelling Display. You now hurt everyone within 30ft as a standard action at level 1.
Human, Weapon Focus, Dazelling Display, Hero's Display, Performance Combatent. You can now get that damage out once per round while attacking. This is avaliable at level 3, or level 4 if you're not human and take Rogue Talent-Combat Talent.
However, at level 3 you've got at best a 3+Cha/20 chance of activating it unless you activate Dazelling display instead, and why not?
You may also want to grab Mask of Virtue and Souless Gaze, that way you can fear stack with Intimidate. You could go Fiendskin instead, not great, but it does mean you could light yourself on fire as a scare tactic.So, now anything that attacks you as a group of little things needs to be immune to fear, or you can blow through it without swinging your blade at them.
I mean, the damage isn't enormous at that point (looking at 2d4 at level 3), but yeah, frighten 'em all until they faint!
Deadly Aim doesn't work for touch attacks. But you can get a LOT more hits with it now, and it ignores SR. By my calculations (and as you indicated), with Logan's new changes, average damage from a full attack is going to be much higher than it was.I play a Warlock on these threads I can tell you it did not up my damage at all. It lowered it. Ignoring SR was a good change that was simply needed. Now if you removed the elemental portion your numbers might be closer to correct.
Didn't the changes just come out two hours ago? You playtested this and ran a statistical comparison with your previous tests already?
I mean, the damage isn't enormous at that point (looking at 2d4 at level 3), but yeah, frighten 'em all until they faint!Twisting Fear, you deal your reduced sneak attack damage to all you shake/etc, applies 1/round.
Rogue Talent-Combat Talent: You can select combat Feats.
Go Weapon Focus, Dazelling Display. You now hurt everyone within 30ft as a standard action at level 1.
Human, Weapon Focus, Dazelling Display, Hero's Display, Performance Combatent. You can now get that damage out once per round while attacking. This is avaliable at level 3, or level 4 if you're not human and take Rogue Talent-Combat Talent.
However, at level 3 you've got at best a 3+Cha/20 chance of activating it unless you activate Dazelling display instead, and why not?
You may also want to grab Mask of Virtue and Souless Gaze, that way you can fear stack with Intimidate. You could go Fiendskin instead, not great, but it does mean you could light yourself on fire as a scare tactic.So, now anything that attacks you as a group of little things needs to be immune to fear, or you can blow through it without swinging your blade at them.
Hey Mark any idea on maybe chucking in a feat into Mystic Bolts? Maybe giving the selector the option of TWF or Rapid Shot as a bonus feat?
Would help soften the blow of losing those second level spells at 4.
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If you pick Acid and Electricity you should be able to bypass almost all resistances as Acid is the least resisted and most things that are resistant aren't to electricity.
Demons, Devils, Outsider kin and many other types would like to speak with you.
Let me put it this way, What advantage does the second interation have over the first that could have ALL of the same feats and have say a gun or Hand Crossbow in the other hand? At level 10 with haste you can do what? 6d6+30 with Mystic Bolts with the 2nd vers.. compared to the First that could have the same featline getting 3d6+30 + Crossbow Bolt of 3d4+12... with a +1 weapon.
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Didn't the changes just come out two hours ago? You playtested this and ran a statistical comparison with your previous tests already?Deadly Aim doesn't work for touch attacks. But you can get a LOT more hits with it now, and it ignores SR. By my calculations (and as you indicated), with Logan's new changes, average damage from a full attack is going to be much higher than it was.I play a Warlock on these threads I can tell you it did not up my damage at all. It lowered it. Ignoring SR was a good change that was simply needed. Now if you removed the elemental portion your numbers might be closer to correct.
Its not that hard to add and subtract the numbers. My particular Warlock lost 5 damage off of every shot. I Have Conductive weapons. One melee One Ranged.
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Twisting Fear, you deal your reduced sneak attack damage to all you shake/etc, applies 1/round.
Rogue Talent-Combat Talent: You can select combat Feats.
Go Weapon Focus, Dazelling Display. You now hurt everyone within 30ft as a standard action at level 1.
Human, Weapon Focus, Dazzling Display, Hero's Display, Performance Combatent. You can now get that damage out once per round while attacking. This is avaliable at level 3, or level 4 if you're not human and take Rogue Talent-Combat Talent.
However, at level 3 you've got at best a 3+Cha/20 chance of activating it unless you activate Dazelling display instead, and why not?
You may also want to grab Mask of Virtue and Souless Gaze, that way you can fear stack with Intimidate. You could go Fiendskin instead, not great, but it does mean you could light yourself on fire as a scare tactic.So, now anything that attacks you as a group of little things needs to be immune to fear, or you can blow through it without swinging your blade at them.
You can't take this that early. You can't take weapon focus at one as you don't have BAB 1. This delays all other feats two levels, or one if you waste a stalker talent on a combat feat.
Its a good trick, but it really doesn't take off until 5th or 7th level, and there are a vast number of things immune to fear.
Sure, not massive, but Twisting Fear means that they are too scared to speak, so it can be a perfectly silent display that just happens to frighten up to 17 people into wheezing terror... However, what needs to be asked, is if that 'too scared to speak' is just flavour text, or if it could prevent casters from casting spells with vocal components.I mean, the damage isn't enormous at that point (looking at 2d4 at level 3), but yeah, frighten 'em all until they faint!Twisting Fear, you deal your reduced sneak attack damage to all you shake/etc, applies 1/round.
Rogue Talent-Combat Talent: You can select combat Feats.
Go Weapon Focus, Dazelling Display. You now hurt everyone within 30ft as a standard action at level 1.
Human, Weapon Focus, Dazelling Display, Hero's Display, Performance Combatent. You can now get that damage out once per round while attacking. This is avaliable at level 3, or level 4 if you're not human and take Rogue Talent-Combat Talent.
However, at level 3 you've got at best a 3+Cha/20 chance of activating it unless you activate Dazelling display instead, and why not?
You may also want to grab Mask of Virtue and Souless Gaze, that way you can fear stack with Intimidate. You could go Fiendskin instead, not great, but it does mean you could light yourself on fire as a scare tactic.So, now anything that attacks you as a group of little things needs to be immune to fear, or you can blow through it without swinging your blade at them.
It is rules text, but it only applies to panicked enemies.
Its not that hard to add and subtract the numbers. My particular Warlock lost 5 damage off of every shot. I Have Conductive weapons. One melee One Ranged.Didn't the changes just come out two hours ago? You playtested this and ran a statistical comparison with your previous tests already?Deadly Aim doesn't work for touch attacks. But you can get a LOT more hits with it now, and it ignores SR. By my calculations (and as you indicated), with Logan's new changes, average damage from a full attack is going to be much higher than it was.I play a Warlock on these threads I can tell you it did not up my damage at all. It lowered it. Ignoring SR was a good change that was simply needed. Now if you removed the elemental portion your numbers might be closer to correct.
Ok. I was just surprised that you had had time to try out the changes. But I see now that the second playtest came out several hours earlier than I thought it had.
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Ok. I was just surprised that you had had time to try out the changes. But I see now that the second playtest came out several hours earlier than I thought it had.Its not that hard to add and subtract the numbers. My particular Warlock lost 5 damage off of every shot. I Have Conductive weapons. One melee One Ranged.Didn't the changes just come out two hours ago? You playtested this and ran a statistical comparison with your previous tests already?Deadly Aim doesn't work for touch attacks. But you can get a LOT more hits with it now, and it ignores SR. By my calculations (and as you indicated), with Logan's new changes, average damage from a full attack is going to be much higher than it was.I play a Warlock on these threads I can tell you it did not up my damage at all. It lowered it. Ignoring SR was a good change that was simply needed. Now if you removed the elemental portion your numbers might be closer to correct.
I'm saying the changes are what they are, I didnt have to run a separate scenario to note the differences. I was running this way pretty much already, I TWF with Either Shortsword and Mystic Bolt or Gun and Mystic Bolt. I already had Arcane Strike as an actual feat.