As some of you in the community may know, Warhammer fantasy battles is being discontinued.
I find myself wishing paizo had a mass combat system that could be used by players with large amounts of models...
I know there are some rules for this...but not on the scale of WHFB..
There are soon to be many players like myself with massive armies just sitting around...and a massive rules void for them.
Seems like a niche Paizo could exploit...just sayin' *shrug*
There are mass combat rules in the game already. It's in Ultimate Campaign.
I know, I own the book. Those rules are laughably insufficient for portraying the type of battle I'm talking about.
I hope they develop something better than the existing rules as well.
There is a lot of potential for some really interesting battles, considering all the magic in the world and the various types of beasties...
Creative Director
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I know, I own the book. Those rules are laughably insufficient for portraying the type of battle I'm talking about.
To be fair, they were never intended to portray that type of game play. A fully detailed mass combat system that uses minis and terrain and all that is a HUGE undertaking. It's also one that would be a significant job for us to pull off, and since it's also a very different game than our core game (and our core expertise as a company), it's a type of system we've been pretty hesitant about doing much more with than what we HAVE done, which is enough to resolve mass combats in a story sense so that the game can get back to the individual character elements.
But yeah... a full on mass combat simulator is not something we have plans to do at this time.
Some of us prefer large-scale strategic combat to tactical, and the UC rules work fine for that (especially if you add Legendary Games' supplements).
I know, I own the book. Those rules are laughably insufficient for portraying the type of battle I'm talking about.To be fair, they were never intended to portray that type of game play. A fully detailed mass combat system that uses minis and terrain and all that is a HUGE undertaking. It's also one that would be a significant job for us to pull off, and since it's also a very different game than our core game (and our core expertise as a company), it's a type of system we've been pretty hesitant about doing much more with than what we HAVE done, which is enough to resolve mass combats in a story sense so that the game can get back to the individual character elements.
But yeah... a full on mass combat simulator is not something we have plans to do at this time.
Wow, thanks for responding. I can understand not wanting to dip your toe in that pool. It is pretty deep. It's just a gesture of confidence that if you did do so...it would be awesome.
OP
you are looking for Kings of War
I have some KOW minis...I'll have to check out their rules set.
What they "need" to release is a "squadron" template.
You know the mob template that WotC released in DMG2? They should do the same thing here. Why? because most of the time, the PCs won't be commanding armies, they will be fighting on the field as a "standard unit". They need a swarm-like template for bigger creatures, like humanoid soldiers to pester the PCs would want to go Dynasty Warriors on an opposing army.
I'm not saying that the mass combat system isn't used, I'm just saying that they need another option.
|
What they "need" to release is a "squadron" template.
You know the mob template that WotC released in DMG2? They should do the same thing here. Why? because most of the time, the PCs won't be commanding armies, they will be fighting on the field as a "standard unit". They need a swarm-like template for bigger creatures, like humanoid soldiers to pester the PCs would want to go Dynasty Warriors on an opposing army.
I'm not saying that the mass combat system isn't used, I'm just saying that they need another option.
Troops were introduced for this in Reign of Winter.
|
Did somebody ask for Mass Combat in Pathfinder? You may be interested in this:
The Very Last Book About War (full disclosure - written by yours truly)
That's basically what I've been doing with my Warhammer figures for the last few years. It's an alternative mass combat system that allows the players to make full use of their heroic abilities while leading large contingents of troops. It makes a great basis for a war-themed Pathfinder campaign where the party has to fight in major battles. It can also provide a great capstone encounter for a long campaign.
Troops were introduced for this in Reign of Winter.What they "need" to release is a "squadron" template.
You know the mob template that WotC released in DMG2? They should do the same thing here. Why? because most of the time, the PCs won't be commanding armies, they will be fighting on the field as a "standard unit". They need a swarm-like template for bigger creatures, like humanoid soldiers to pester the PCs would want to go Dynasty Warriors on an opposing army.
I'm not saying that the mass combat system isn't used, I'm just saying that they need another option.
I saw this, but it felt a little too... tailored for firearm-using modern soldiers.
I saw this, but it felt a little too... tailored for firearm-using modern soldiers.Troops were introduced for this in Reign of Winter.What they "need" to release is a "squadron" template.
You know the mob template that WotC released in DMG2? They should do the same thing here. Why? because most of the time, the PCs won't be commanding armies, they will be fighting on the field as a "standard unit". They need a swarm-like template for bigger creatures, like humanoid soldiers to pester the PCs would want to go Dynasty Warriors on an opposing army.
I'm not saying that the mass combat system isn't used, I'm just saying that they need another option.
Jason Nelson has said that Ultimate Armies will (should? hopefully?) contain rules for creating troops (some sort of template, I believe).
Pathfinder #100 will have two new types of troops... but that's still several months away.
As will House on Hook Street!
Did somebody ask for Mass Combat in Pathfinder? You may be interested in this:
The Very Last Book About War (full disclosure - written by yours truly)
That's basically what I've been doing with my Warhammer figures for the last few years. It's an alternative mass combat system that allows the players to make full use of their heroic abilities while leading large contingents of troops. It makes a great basis for a war-themed Pathfinder campaign where the party has to fight in major battles. It can also provide a great capstone encounter for a long campaign.
My interest is definitely peaked. How many pages is the book? I didn't see it in the listing.
I saw this, but it felt a little too... tailored for firearm-using modern soldiers.Troops were introduced for this in Reign of Winter.What they "need" to release is a "squadron" template.
You know the mob template that WotC released in DMG2? They should do the same thing here. Why? because most of the time, the PCs won't be commanding armies, they will be fighting on the field as a "standard unit". They need a swarm-like template for bigger creatures, like humanoid soldiers to pester the PCs would want to go Dynasty Warriors on an opposing army.
I'm not saying that the mass combat system isn't used, I'm just saying that they need another option.
I believe the inventor of the Troop subtype said that troops are too complicated for a template, and they have to be designed from the ground up, as you would a new monster.
I am actually really surprised we haven't gotten more troops. They were one of my favorite things from RoW, and would do a lot in making low CR baddies relevant at higher levels.
If troops can't be just a template I hope that Paizo not only provides some easy to use rules for building your own troops but includes lots of different pre-built troops in some future products. Often you can file off the serial numbers, slap on a template, and re-skin stuff to what you need it to be (take the Centipede Swarm and Rain of Frogs, for instance)
As for the mass combat rules from UC, I think the worst aspect of them is how swingy they are based on dice rolls and how much they reward aggressive offense. The damage bonuses seem too high, as does the potential damage per round. When a mass battle comes up in a game I run later this year I might try house ruling the UC system to get something more like what I want, or I might try playing out small to mid size battles with something like troops to see how that goes.
I think the worst aspect of them is how swingy they are based on dice rolls and how much they reward aggressive offense.
That swingyness can be seen easier on smaller armies, but once you get into larger/stronger armies, the difference on the rolls isn't that great, the armies will take a while to beat down due to the higher amount of hp, and then strategies and special abilities are worth more than the dice.
My experience on this is from a 6-hours one-shot focused solely on mass-battles with 7th level PCs and a green dragon attacking their cities at the end.
If anyone is interested, the dragon's stats were these:
Army (Tiny)
NE adult green dragon CR 12
hp 26, ACR 4
DV 14, OM +4
special flight, amphibious, blindsense, breath weapon, fear, significant defense, spell resistance, spellcaster (13)
speed 10, Consumption 2Flight - Can't be attacked by melee troops in a turn it doesn't make melee attacks.
blindsense - Suffers half the penalties from darkness, invisibility ou bad weather.
Breath Weapon - Can make ranged attacks, and causes an additional 1d4 damage on melee or ranged attacks.
Fear - Enemies who take damage must roll a morale check (DC 14) or cant make attacks on the next round. If the enemy fails a second fear check, they flee from combat.
Significant Defense - +10 DV if the enemy doesnt use magical weapons.
Spell Resistance - +6 DV against spellcasting enemies.
Spellcaster - +1 OM per spell level available (+3).
|
|
My interest is definitely peaked. How many pages is the book? I didn't see it in the listing.Did somebody ask for Mass Combat in Pathfinder? You may be interested in this:
The Very Last Book About War (full disclosure - written by yours truly)
That's basically what I've been doing with my Warhammer figures for the last few years. It's an alternative mass combat system that allows the players to make full use of their heroic abilities while leading large contingents of troops. It makes a great basis for a war-themed Pathfinder campaign where the party has to fight in major battles. It can also provide a great capstone encounter for a long campaign.
About 30 pages. We ran a few mass battles using this system at Paizocon, and it went over very well.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If troops can't be just a template I hope that Paizo not only provides some easy to use rules for building your own troops but includes lots of different pre-built troops in some future products.
I have been trying to persuade the powers-that-be at Paizo to pull the trigger on the Armies of Golarion book for at least a couple of years now, and lobbied hard for their inclusion in some of the bestiaries. There is certainly interest, so keep beating the war drums and voicing your support if you want to see it happen, because I'm ready!
Hint hint: GenCon makes for the perfect venue to voice such support for future products!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Brandon, after what you did for Occult Adventures, they should just let you do this one. :D
I probably won't be at GenCon, but I'd be interested in seeing sample units from different Armies of Golarion presented in a troop or troop-like format. Beyond just getting some game stats it might be fun seeing the names and history of various units. Some information on the military history and great battles of Golarion might be fun too.
When I had to run a mass combat in Pathfinder, I dusted off my old copy of TSR's Battlesystem miniatures combat rules that they published back in the early 1990s during the AD&D 2nd edition days. It worked pretty well, though I had to make some changes on the fly.