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I just wanted to have a little spirited discussion and brainstorm with the community here.
For those of you who have read the background history of the Drow inthe Second Darkness AP, Into the Darklands, and the Advanced Race Guide, there are a few things we know about the Drow: First, Drow culture revolves around deception, cruelty, demon-worship, and capricious acts of sadism, which is expressed against all races including other drow. Second, everyone who has discovered their society and has encountered them hates them due to their extraordinarily cruelty, and they are constantly fighting against other races in the Darklands for supremacy. Third, Drow are constantly assassinating one another, with matriarchs of the various houses killing other matriarchs, younger nobles murdering senior nobles in order to advance in station, and drow male and females being flesh-warped into driders and other monstrosities for real or imagined slights or for simple amusement. In other words, the Drow show little to no solidarity with one another; Drow simply hate each other, distrust each other, and kill each other for any number of reasons (or no reason at all). The closest real-life analogue to living in drow society would be living in the most violent unregulated prison on earth.
With that in mind, we must remember a few things about elves, and drow in particular. First, elves take over a century to reach adulthood; the longest time to mature out of any current playable race. Second, even after a century taken to reach maturity, they are still novices. It takes many more years, decades, and even centuries for the Drow to master their crafts as wizards, clerics, and warriors. Every time a matriarch, demonic cleric, or senior military commander is killed, centuries of institutional knowledge is wiped out. Each of these drow leaders is worth their weight in gold not merely for their abilities, but for the sheer time it took them to achieve their powers.
And this is what really confused me about how the drow as a society and culture are written. You see, I understand how a constantly in-fighting chaotic evil race such as orcs have managed to survive extinction despite the way they were written: Because they breed in litters, with a gestation period of only six months, and they reach full physical maturity in just twelve years (according to canon). Thus, even though orcs are constantly killing and dying by the truckload, there is always a huge new generation of orcs on the cusp of maturity. If one orcish warlord kills another orcish warlord, there are many more up-and-coming orcs who can take his place.
The Drow have no such advantage. Each time a drow leader is murdered by another drow in a moment of pique or caprice, the race is made all the weaker because there is no one who can immediately replace that person. Unless the drow are uniquely fecund, with each drow female birthing dozens or even hundreds of children during her lifetime, I do not understand how drow society would be able to survive such immense self-inflicted attrition. I contend that if any race behaved in such a manner while in the midst of a sea of enemies that hated them, that race would have been conquered and enslaved or utterly exterminated long before they became a threat to people living on the surface.
So all this leads up to the question: How on Earth have the Drow managed to keep from going extinct in spite of their constant infighting and murdering? I welcome any theories, speculation, or explanation from the authors!
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The mindflayers keep them alive to help keep the old ones asleep.
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Their demon lords like having drow around to worship them, are amused by their plots, and sponsor cloning vats for all the major drow houses, so there is always a new supply around, with bonuses for the extra memories of all the times they backstabbed each other.
"So, that's now 14 times I've murdered you, compared to 8 times you've murdered me!"
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"So, that's now 14 times I've murdered you, compared to 8 times you've murdered me!"
"It's so simple! But unbeknownst to you, I modify'd your memory! Further, I discovered all the times you've modified my own! The Jig is up! You've only murdered me 9 times, while I've actually murdered you fifteen! Never go in against a Nocticulan when death is on the linnne~! AHAHAHAHAH~! AHAHAHAHAHAH~! AHAHAHAHAHA-" *thud*
"... fifteen times."
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Well...I mean realistically they probably wouldn't....BUT
Drow are relatively isolated in the underdark, and while there are probably nastier things down there, they are probably even more reduced in numbers than Drow.
Drow are chaotic evil, but they seem to have enough cohesion as a culture to manage a united front against non-drow enemies.
anyway just some ideas on why they are still around. James Jacob would probably have other ideas too.
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What is 'frequently' to a drow?
remember they are surrounded by enemies and KNOW they are surrounded by enemies. Racial unity will trump all else in the face of danger.
Weak chaotics are controlled by strong chaotics. Children would be free of the infighting since they are still the future of the race. Physically mature children with low mental maturity make great cannon fodder if need be.
If you are a long-lived race, bumping off an enemy every ten years IS frequent, but won't cost them power over all. Given how fast it is possible to rise in levels, the issue of high level drow being popped isn't that serious. Half a dozen excursions into the darklands, and you could have a whole crew of ready replacements fresh from killing the horrors out there.
Probably the key is that in that environment, it is possible to gain levels very quickly, and as you go up in levels, it gets harder and harder to just gank you, plus you DO have allies if you are smart, who will believe they are better off with you then without you.
Orcs can gain levels, too, but their infighting is FEROCIOUS. In turn, they are also threatened by outside forces, and don't have the magic and demonic allies to make such think twice, just their own reproduction and unending vicious streaks. So, they never get beyond the horde, get decimated, run away, breed a new generation, come back for more.
==Aelryinth
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For the same reason the Drow of Forgotten Realms aren't extinct.
For the same reason the Drow of Greyhawk aren't extinct.
They are a wholly evil fictional society... keyword, fictional.
However, for a look at a possible end result, see Michael Moorcock's "Elric" saga. Pretty much the Melniboneans have the same sort of evil, backstabbing, slavery of other races is awesome mentality and... they are damn near extinct and their Emperor is a sickly albino that is kept alive only by sorcery and drug use.
Creative Director
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If the drow were extinct, then the game would lose one of its most interesting and iconic villains. Therefore, they are not extinct.
If you want an in-game reason... it's because as good as they are at being destructive and dastardly, they're even better at surviving and flourishing in the face of indomitable odds.
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Drow may hate each other, but they hate everyone else more. That's what keeps them functioning as a coherent society.
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What is 'frequently' to a drow?
remember they are surrounded by enemies and KNOW they are surrounded by enemies. Racial unity will trump all else in the face of danger.
I agree. And I think the Drow should have been written as far more united as a race and culture, expressing their sadism and murderous urges solely against people of other races rather than also against their own people in apparently equal measure.
Weak chaotics are controlled by strong chaotics. Children would be free of the infighting since they are still the future of the race. Physically mature children with low mental maturity make great cannon fodder if need be.
And therein lies the problem: The drow, as they are written, are simply so cavalier with each other's lives that they seem perfectly happy engaging in the casual mutilation and murder of one another.
If you are a long-lived race, bumping off an enemy every ten years IS frequent, but won't cost them power over all. Given how fast it is possible to rise in levels, the issue of high level drow being popped isn't that serious. Half a dozen excursions into the darklands, and you could have a whole crew of ready replacements fresh from killing the horrors out there.
Probably the key is that in that environment, it is possible to gain levels very quickly, and as you go up in levels, it gets harder and harder to just gank you, plus you DO have allies if you are smart, who will believe they are better off with you then without you.
That is all well and good if Drow hit the ground running, so to speak, and begin adventuring and gaining experience the moment they reach maturity. But I should have clarified and harped on this point a bit more: Drow are not merely long lived, which is a huge advantage, but they have a lengthy maturity phase, which confers a huge disadvantage. It still takes Drow over a century to reach maturity, which is an extremely long time to replace a prior generation of Drow whose numbers may get seriously depleted by war, disaster, and various other calamities, to say nothing of the constant internecine conflicts within Drow society that is the subject of discussion. I would argue that this glacial progression of population maturation would make every single mature member of Drow society extremely valuable; much too valuable to kill or murder over their petty political or personal disputes, and far too valuable to kill for pleasures.
Orcs can gain levels, too, but their infighting is FEROCIOUS. In turn, they are also threatened by outside forces, and don't have the magic and demonic allies to make such think twice, just their own reproduction and unending vicious streaks. So, they never get beyond the horde, get decimated, run away, breed a new generation, come back for more.
==Aelryinth
Again, I completely agree with your assessment of orcish society. But their society, such as it is, still functions and still makes sense as written simply because they breed and mature like rabbits. Drow for all their sophistication, meanwhile, mature at the rate of a coastal redwood tree.
If the drow were extinct, then the game would lose one of its most interesting and iconic villains. Therefore, they are not extinct.
Touché, good sir.
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Ah, the Post-Literary Omnirevisional Tactic armor method! Very good!
==Aelryinth
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I always handled as most of the violent infighting being a past time of the Noble houses and their direct servants - the "common" Drow are too busy surviving to engage in the noble sports of their betters.
Though becoming part of a House and becoming part of the bloodbath is something to inspire to, simply because it greatly limits who actually has authority over you (and thus limits how many people you need to please in order to not be at risk of sudden termination.)
Another thing I run with that while most Drow are not inherently violent or sadistic, most Drow (like 99% even) are sociopaths.
A drow might not actually feel any special joy or pleasure from killing or hurting a rival, but a drow will almost never feel remorse over it. Drow only regret something when it goes wrong.
The drow that aren't sociopaths usually get weeded out for being "weak" and suffer some ill fate or another (death, slavery, driderhood, integration into an "art" exhibit, etc.).
Drow children are rarely killed, but are frequently hurt - childhood is when a drow learns that all of the world is her enemy, and the weak are the toys of the strong.
(Drow never raise their own children if they can help it - the racial trend towards sociopathy quashes out parental instinct. Paying someone else to raise your child is the main workaround - because now your brat is that person's problem. There's some other issues on that front that I'll refrain from mentioning, though.)
My understanding from Mr. Jacobs is that elves have a disproportionately long adolescence, rather than a long childhood. So a drow spends a long time as self-sufficient but weak rather than helpless - but still an experience that drives many drow towards upwards mobility. Because being that weak was terrible, and they have no desire to live that way.
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Frankly, I feel the way we portray them is way more LE than CE -- they're rigidly hierarchical, for example, and organized.
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Frankly, I feel the way we portray them is way more LE than CE -- they're rigidly hierarchical, for example, and organized.
Which was issue with drow portrayal since eighties. Or maybe issue with D&D alignments. Or both.
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Also, the ones that survive are VERY good at survival. Couple that with the fact that an individual Drow/Elf can live for hundreds of years. Longer if they spend that time figuring out how to achieve immortality/survivability.
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Change the age at which they mature. I don't think the current numbers make sense for elves or drow. Let them be culturally considered as "youths" until 100 or whatever, but be physically and mentally mature about the same time as humans or half-elves.
Basically, I think D&D 5e nailed it.
Just because they are always trying to kill each other off doesn't mean that they always succeed.
Drow might be acting like Orcs in many respects, but they do it in slow motion, commensurate with their longer maturation rate.
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Frankly, I feel the way we portray them is way more LE than CE -- they're rigidly hierarchical, for example, and organized.
I'd argue that having hierarchies/pecking orders and organization has no bearing on Law or Chaos - unless one is some sort of marauding super monster (like a red dragon), organization is simply a side effect of needing to gather a bunch of screwheads together to get stuff done.
Whether that "stuff" is conquest or blasphemous artwork or mad science or just making whoever sits at the top of the pecking order a lot of money.
Now, the sheer instability of the situation would have more to do with Law v. Chaos.
In a more Lawful society, the Drow would have clears lines of succession, and most of the infighting would be along those, with third parties (such as a court system) or entrenched traditions helping to negotiate or smooth things out. There'd be mechanisms for damage control.
As a more Chaotic society, the Drow don't actually have clear lines of succession - power simply goes to whoever can seize and hold against all challengers, and so the successor to a matriarch usually whoever's the best at building a cult of personality (regardless of the matriarch's own preferences). The closest thing there is to a damage control is simply a matron's desire to not make more enemies than she can handle.
I don't think Drow society has a court system or would even recognize wills. Dispute resolution is handled very intimately, and pretty much always in favor of whoever is stronger or has the scarier friend/boss.
Drow society is a free-for-all in slow motion - when a matron takes charge, she can establish a deathgrip on her holdings that can last for decades or even centuries. (Though frequently with skirmishing between minions.) But the moment that deathgrip falters, she's in real danger of getting supplanted by an up-and-comer who'll establish a new deathgrip for an uncertain duration.
Frankly, I feel the way we portray them is way more LE than CE -- they're rigidly hierarchical, for example, and organized.I'd argue that having hierarchies/pecking orders and organization has no bearing on Law or Chaos - unless one is some sort of marauding super monster (like a red dragon), organization is simply a side effect of needing to gather a bunch of screwheads together to get stuff done.
Whether that "stuff" is conquest or blasphemous artwork or mad science or just making whoever sits at the top of the pecking order a lot of money.
Now, the sheer instability of the situation would have more to do with Law v. Chaos.
In a more Lawful society, the Drow would have clears lines of succession, and most of the infighting would be along those, with third parties (such as a court system) or entrenched traditions helping to negotiate or smooth things out. There'd be mechanisms for damage control.
As a more Chaotic society, the Drow don't actually have clear lines of succession - power simply goes to whoever can seize and hold against all challengers, and so the successor to a matriarch usually whoever's the best at building a cult of personality (regardless of the matriarch's own preferences). The closest thing there is to a damage control is simply a matron's desire to not make more enemies than she can handle.
I don't think Drow society has a court system or would even recognize wills. Dispute resolution is handled very intimately, and pretty much always in favor of whoever is stronger or has the scarier friend/boss.
Drow society is a free-for-all in slow motion - when a matron takes charge, she can establish a deathgrip on her holdings that can last for decades or even centuries. (Though frequently with skirmishing between minions.) But the moment that deathgrip falters, she's in real danger of getting supplanted by an up-and-comer who'll establish a new deathgrip for an uncertain duration.
It's an interesting argument, but for me "rigid" can't equal "chaotic," and while I can see a chaotic society having fluid or ad-hoc hierarchies, a detailed and unchanging hierarchy isn't chaotic.
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"Currently too powerful to dislodge" is a far cry from "detailed and unchanging," though.
I mean, by that logic the Abyss isn't actually chaotic because the Abyss has rulers with millennium long life spans who are frequently too powerful to ever be meaningfully challenged by their underlings.
The Abyss has a pretty rigid hierarchy by virtue of powerful beings actively enforcing it - but that hierarchy would fall apart the moment they stopped.
Lamashtu's the big boss lady, but only for as long she remains involved and active. If she vanished for some reason, the anarchy from the resulting power vacuum would be staggering, as her unsupervised underlings/allies/foes/frenemies would all start fighting for the position (and then Nocticula would try to knock off the winner, just to see if she could =P)
(If anything, a rigid hierarchy strikes me as MORE common in a chaotic culture - because establishing and enforcing that hierarchy is an act of preemptive self-defense.)
Essentially, every drow matron is a warlord, running a House instead of a bandit army.
Though now that I'm thinking about it, a drow House IS a bandit army, just prettier.
"Currently too powerful to dislodge" is a far cry from "detailed and unchanging," though.
I mean, by that logic the Abyss isn't actually chaotic because the Abyss has rulers with millennium long life spans who are frequently too powerful to ever be meaningfully challenged by their underlings.
The Abyss has a pretty rigid hierarchy by virtue of powerful beings actively enforcing it - but that hierarchy would fall apart the moment they stopped.
There's a difference between a de facto hierarchy and an institutionalized one, and I wouldn't apply the term "rigid" to a de facto hierarchy.
Also in Golarion: Can't normal elves still become drow? It wasn't a one time event, but a distinct possibility for any modern elf that starts worshipping demons?
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Yeah, but the elves were gone for thousands of years as the drow increased numbers on their own.
Demons have a rigid hierarchy based only on strength. If you are stronger then the person above you, unless they have someone stronger warding them, you knock them off and take their place, no problems.
Do that in Hell, and you're probably going to the fires. In the Hells, you have to make your superior eliminate himself by having HIS superiors take care of him. Jumping the line simply isn't done.
That's the difference between lawful and chaotic hierarchies, the fluidity of changing station. In chaotics, if you've the power, your place is wherever you want it to be. In lawful, your place is wherever your bosses say it is, and no deviating.
==Aelryinth
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The "rigid hierarchies," if they even truly exist, are also limited to familial lines and close in-marriages, vis a vis the various houses. Relations between the various houses don't hold to any kind of stable structure whatsoever.
Then, too, I think both murder and fleshwarping are probably less common than they are portrayed (mutilation is probably just as bad as depicted) because there is an element of game-playing in the entire setup that makes winning less satisfactory if you can't run your rival's nose in it.
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I like to see drows as the vilanous bastards that hate each other and find themselves the best race on the face of Earth. They kill each other with complex and elaborated schemes, outright coming and murdering the other abroad is tasteless, non-drow and they lose face on drow society (not for killing, but by killing in an unimaginative way). Probably being ridiculed by samrter drow and not gaining the intended power. So, they take years to assassinate a rival.
Secondly, only drows can kill drows. Another race doing this makes the drow society unite against the race that "dared" to kill a drow.
This is one of those things about Evil societies that I think it is best to just not think about too hard - their replacement birth rates, or number of slaves/captives required are usually way out of wack. But that's also true of things like the wilderness ecology, where the apex predator is a thing that eats trolls instead of just wolves - there are not going to be enough deer to support that food web.
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Also in Golarion: Can't normal elves still become drow? It wasn't a one time event, but a distinct possibility for any modern elf that starts worshipping demons?
Not just any evil elf will change - only the most black-hearted, murderous, utterly ruthless souls will become drow.
Not quite true, Ross.
Wilderness Ecology would work perfectly well. What happens is you replace the apex predator, wolves, with something else...like, in our world, they've been replaced by humans.
So what would happen is the wolves would be driven off, eaten, or just another prey animal for the new apex predator.
What you would NOT have is the full natural ecology PLUS the monstrous ecology.
So what would happen if something bigger and badder then wolves moved into an area is that the wolves would leave. Territorial aggressiveness is a hallmark of predators.
So, one of the best ways to see if something dangerous is in the area is to see if there are any wolf tracks. If not, there's something bigger and badder around preying on stuff the wolf might eat.
==Aelryinth
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What you would NOT have is the full natural ecology PLUS the monstrous ecology.
You're right, but the thing is, we DO. In Pathfinder, you often have wilderness encounter tables that include both wolf packs and trolls. It isn't a real ecology - it's a game construct meant to support our real-world assumptions in addition to fantasy elements.
A real ecology can't support wolves and trolls - even if you have the trolls drive off the wolves in the same way wolves drive off coyotes, because a troll would require so much territory that it would be impossible for them to maintain a breeding population. Even without humanoids hunting them rigorously.
Add to that landsharks, purple worms, giant/dire animals, giants, dragons, undead, drakes, and whatever else gets added with every new Bestiary and it doesn't make sense.
Sure, you could work out how a 'real ecology' with those monsters would work, but it wouldn't look like how Golarion is actually portrayed.
Likewise, you could work out exactly what the attrition rate is for drow infighting vs. their birth rate and their losses in wars against the Xulgath and Duergar, but it's more fun to just dangle all the plot hooks and move on.
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It's an...Frankly, I feel the way we portray them is way more LE than CE -- they're rigidly hierarchical, for example, and organized.I'd argue that having hierarchies/pecking orders and organization has no bearing on Law or Chaos - unless one is some sort of marauding super monster (like a red dragon), organization is simply a side effect of needing to gather a bunch of screwheads together to get stuff done.
Whether that "stuff" is conquest or blasphemous artwork or mad science or just making whoever sits at the top of the pecking order a lot of money.
Now, the sheer instability of the situation would have more to do with Law v. Chaos.
In a more Lawful society, the Drow would have clears lines of succession, and most of the infighting would be along those, with third parties (such as a court system) or entrenched traditions helping to negotiate or smooth things out. There'd be mechanisms for damage control.
As a more Chaotic society, the Drow don't actually have clear lines of succession - power simply goes to whoever can seize and hold against all challengers, and so the successor to a matriarch usually whoever's the best at building a cult of personality (regardless of the matriarch's own preferences). The closest thing there is to a damage control is simply a matron's desire to not make more enemies than she can handle.
I don't think Drow society has a court system or would even recognize wills. Dispute resolution is handled very intimately, and pretty much always in favor of whoever is stronger or has the scarier friend/boss.
Drow society is a free-for-all in slow motion - when a matron takes charge, she can establish a deathgrip on her holdings that can last for decades or even centuries. (Though frequently with skirmishing between minions.) But the moment that deathgrip falters, she's in real danger of getting supplanted by an up-and-comer who'll establish a new deathgrip for an uncertain duration.
Most of RL rigid and tyranic social experiments, such as National-Socialism or Stalin's version of communism are very LE outwardly, but there's a lot of backstabbing and in-fighting behind the scenes. So, perhaps societies have dual alignments? :)
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So, perhaps societies have dual alignments? :)
I don't think Societies have a dual alignment so much as the possibility that a Society as a whole might have a different alignment from its members (and you can't just detect or smite a society anyway).
Zhangar did a pretty good job of explaining how Chaotic creatures can still have a civilized society - Order and Civilization are not synonyms, despite what the Abadarites would tell you.
What you would NOT have is the full natural ecology PLUS the monstrous ecology.You're right, but the thing is, we DO. In Pathfinder, you often have wilderness encounter tables that include both wolf packs and trolls. It isn't a real ecology - it's a game construct meant to support our real-world assumptions in addition to fantasy elements.
A real ecology can't support wolves and trolls - even if you have the trolls drive off the wolves in the same way wolves drive off coyotes, because a troll would require so much territory that it would be impossible for them to maintain a breeding population. Even without humanoids hunting them rigorously.
Add to that landsharks, purple worms, giant/dire animals, giants, dragons, undead, drakes, and whatever else gets added with every new Bestiary and it doesn't make sense.
Sure, you could work out how a 'real ecology' with those monsters would work, but it wouldn't look like how Golarion is actually portrayed.
Likewise, you could work out exactly what the attrition rate is for drow infighting vs. their birth rate and their losses in wars against the Xulgath and Duergar, but it's more fun to just dangle all the plot hooks and move on.
well, even that is explainable, because those are generally random monsters you can meet over several miles once or twice a day. That means different territories for prey.
But, yeah, there rather are too many monsters for the ecology, especially if they 'just leave human towns alone'.
==Aelryinth
It's arguable that Russia is LN among the populace, but LE-NE among the leadership.
America probably leans LG to NG as a country, but leadership is LN to N. Britain and current Germany probably more Lawful, but otherwise similar.
==Aelryinth
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My view on Lawful / Chaotic societies:
*Social* alignment is different from *Personal* alignment.
Lawful societies have institutions, like a Watch, Army, and Orphanages, to deal with specific needs. Individual citizens are NOT expected to act on their own when the functions of such agencies are needed.. they are expected (and themselves expect) the agencies to take the necessary action and deal with it.
Chaotic societies lack some or all such institutions. Orphanages may be privately funded by a family, clan, or individual for their own reasons. Peacekeeping (as the Watch would) may depend on individuals taking action when the occasion arises.
Contrast with *Personal* alignment, in which, for example a Chaotic and Lawful retainer to the King, Charles, may be expressed as:
The Lawful retainer is loyal to the King (the institution of Kingship) who happens to currently be Charles.
The Chaotic retainer is loyal to Charles (a personal loyalty) who happens to be the current King as well.
If the drow were extinct, then the game would lose one of its most interesting and iconic villains. Therefore, they are not extinct.
I'll grant you that they're iconic but if you don't mind me asking from a designer's perspective what makes them interesting. Granted that I haven't read all the way through Second Darkness but from what I've seen in Pathfinder scenarios the Drow are a more or less homogeneous violent society that as villains are nearly interchangeable with Derro or Duergar.
Did you just diss 35 years of "OMG Drow are so kewl!!!"
Props, bro!
==Aelryinth
I was going to say the "Rule of Cool" is the reason they are not extinct but R.A Salvatore and every angst ridden munchkin cheese lord playing a "Good" drow ruined the cool for me.
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If the drow were extinct, then the game would lose one of its most interesting and iconic villains. Therefore, they are not extinct.I'll grant you that they're iconic but if you don't mind me asking from a designer's perspective what makes them interesting. Granted that I haven't read all the way through Second Darkness but from what I've seen in Pathfinder scenarios the Drow are a more or less homogeneous violent society that as villains are nearly interchangeable with Derro or Duergar.
I actually wish people did more with the Duergar. All I get from most campaign setting books comes down to just a quick glance at them that boils down to "Dwarves but angrier and with more magic" before moving on to the Drow. There's so much one could build on with them, it's annoying how they are just thrown away like that. Even the Deep Gnomes got more love! But hey, at least one can build them up in an interesting way in homebrew settings. Better than nothing, I guess.
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I actually wish people did more with the Duergar. All I get from most campaign setting books comes down to just a quick glance at them that boils down to "Dwarves but angrier and with more magic" before moving on to the Drow. There's so much one could build on with them, it's annoying how they are just thrown away like that. Even the Deep Gnomes got more love! But hey, at least one can build them up in an interesting way in homebrew settings. Better than nothing, I guess.If the drow were extinct, then the game would lose one of its most interesting and iconic villains. Therefore, they are not extinct.I'll grant you that they're iconic but if you don't mind me asking from a designer's perspective what makes them interesting. Granted that I haven't read all the way through Second Darkness but from what I've seen in Pathfinder scenarios the Drow are a more or less homogeneous violent society that as villains are nearly interchangeable with Derro or Duergar.
You could go the whole 1984/Brave New World with the Duergar. It's a perfect fascist state to go to war with.
Dwarves in pathfinder are boring and clichéd and the same short angry beer swilling Scottish Vikings ported over from D&D.
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Vikings without ships and raiding are like dwarves without beards. Something of a paradox.
Scottish? Yes. Angry? Yes. Short? Depends on who you ask from. Boring? Not if they are played right.
Vikings without ships and raiding are like dwarves without beards. Something of a paradox.
Scottish? Yes. Angry? Yes. Short? Depends on who you ask from. Boring? Not if they are played right.
I love dwarves I used to play them exclusively. I just got tired of the same themes. The descriptions don't help GMs or players with diversity, when I wanted to play a Dwarf with an Assyrian style background who drove a chariot in a home brew design your own races culture game, I got dwarves aren't like that... More the once.
Art work = Helmets with horns or occasionally a proper Viking helm.
Tolkien's dwarves were a mix of Jewish and Saxon cultures.
The Vikings have stories about dwarves, but so do every other culture including the Japanese, Egyptians, and Greeks.
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You raise a fair point.
And a Sargon of Akkad style Dwarf sounds awesome.
Not exactly Assyrian, but still a very badass Mesopotamian.
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Vikings without ships and raiding are like dwarves without beards. Something of a paradox.
Scottish? Yes. Angry? Yes. Short? Depends on who you ask from. Boring? Not if they are played right.
"Och, a wee one, am I? Ye'll be the wee one soon enough, laddie! Oi, you, 'old me beer. There's a giant t' topple."
Dwarves are a rather exponential race. The more you have in one party, the more fun they are, assuming there's one non-dwarf to heckle. Also, with the whole gnomes = fey thing nowadays, I have to go dwarf for my manic engineer fix.
You raise a fair point.
And a Sargon of Akkad style Dwarf sounds awesome.
Not exactly Assyrian, but still a very badass Mesopotamian.
There were a few Assyrian Kings named after Sargon, Ashurbanipal and Shalmaneser kicked arse... Though!
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In Bernard Cornwell's "The Saxon Stories" there is a good example of what i think to be a Chaotic Society:
When the scandinavian Ragnar, friend of Uthred, visits Londinum (London), he is introduced to King Alfred who, in the moment, was writing new laws. His comment to Uthred is something like he don't know why a society should have more laws than a citizen can remember.
In my viewpoint, Chaotic Societies have laws, institutions, govern, etc. But the laws are few and intuitive, more from common sense than anything else. Chaotic Govern is irregular, only until the leader is strong or senile, could be a dictatorship (often is) and power is alternated irregularly (until people are satisfied with leader, until leader don't want or cant lead anymore, until smarter/stronger citizen seize leadership from current leader backed by people, etc).
IMO, Drow Society has many laws, TOO MANY laws, but drow just pay lip service to them, because the know those are made just to screw outsiders and the unaware in every way possible. The drow just ignore them, knowing them to be only a web of lies and traps - the only law Drow follow is to be smarter, crueler and stronger than the other.
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A few possible reasons:
Drows are paranoid which helps to survive in such an unforgiving environment.
Elder drows are used to many attempts to bring them down, often giving them the upper hand against upstarts.
Drows don't kill each other that much. They need a reason to do it (neutral evil, not chaotic evil) and they know murder is risky. So they might wait for decades till they strike.
Drows love using other races as cannon fodder, this reduces their own losses in wars.
The ability to become several hundred years old (unless killed etc.) also reduces their losses.
The average drow is much more capable than the average orc / goblin / hobgoblin etc..
The rest of the Underdark is too fragmented to wipe the drows out.
They stand united against threats, if needed.
I have to admit that I got my knowledge mostly from reading Salvatore's novels, so not everything may be applicable in Golarion...