Why Aren't the Drow of Golarion Extinct?


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

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Kalindlara wrote:
I believe the Creative Director is with you there. He's said that if he'd had the option, elvish and dwarven lifespans would have been brought way down - not to human, but not hundreds of years - for this and other reasons.

I actually rather like the theme of super long-lived races with sluggish reproduction rates sharing the world with Humans [who breed like rabbits] and Orcs+Goblins and similar [who breed like rats.]


Kalindlara wrote:
I believe the Creative Director is with you there. He's said that if he'd had the option, elvish and dwarven lifespans would have been brought way down - not to human, but not hundreds of years - for this and other reasons.

Well, I like elves having ultra-long lifespans, but they should grow up at a comparable rate.

Ross Byers wrote:
I dunno. Adolecscence keeps getting longer in the Western world.

Yeah, but I don't think that can be extrapolated much farther than we already have taken it, much less out to 80 years or so.


Years ago, in Dragon magazine, there was an article about the population growth rates of fantasy races (Dragon #89, "Survival is a Group Effort" by Stephen Inniss) based on the known science of population growth in the real world.

The key factor is how many female children live to grow up and have more children, with the other factor being how long it takes them to reach child-bearing age.

Races with low birthrates are usually so because they have either or both of these factors: a long time to reach reproductive maturity, or a low number of female children per family.

Fascinating article.

Silver Crusade

I admit I actually enjoy the fact that there are species that are dying out. Like Dire Corbies.

They're a race of suicidally aggressive bird people who live in the underdark, they murder one another constantly, live in filth and squalor and their favorite meal is their own young. I'm frankly amazed there's any of them still around and the only logic is that somehow they breed enough to barely not instantly disappear in a generation.

I think someone up thread touched on this though. Dire corbies are screeching insane bird people. Drow are 'hot' and thus they get a different pass on the suicide train.

Pathfinder Drow are like 40k's dark eldar, I've said this before, but they lack the dark eldar's means of keeping their numbers up (rampant cloning and breeding). The resource expenditure on your average dark elf is far too much to have a 'life is cheap' mentality, unless you have fall backs.


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Drow worship Lamashtu as well as the other demon lords, right?

For all we know, that crazy demon goddess has blessed them with fertility...

Liberty's Edge

Chrysanthe Spiros wrote:

Drow worship Lamashtu as well as the other demon lords, right?

For all we know, that crazy demon goddess has blessed them with fertility...

That might be a reasonable explanation. We do not know anything about the Drow birthrate one way or the other. If Drow women give birth to, say, quintuplets every couple of years, at least the problem of replenishing their numbers is somewhat solved if there is always a gargantuan new generation of Drow on the edge of maturity at any given time. Taking into account their century-long maturation rate, for every adult Drow, I imagine that there would have to be dozens if not hundreds of Drow children and adolescents at varying levels of maturity. If this were the case, Drow daycares must be the biggest overcrowded hellholes on Golarion. Overpopulation and overcrowding might even lend some context to their constant infighting and backstabbing.


^Can you imagine having to change diapers on quintuplets pipelined for 14 years each overlapping at intervals of 2 years? That would drive a body crazy . . . .


I bet they have servants / slaves taking care of the children while the actual parents are busy with their political plots and backstabbings.

Silver Crusade

Icyshadow wrote:
I bet they have servants / slaves taking care of the children while the actual parents are busy with their political plots and backstabbings.

Assuming as a drow you can trust anyone to look after them, and assume that they fear you more then your enemies can bribe or cajole them, or overwhelm them with an attack. Or that you don't just do them in yourself for some sort of gain.

The problem with chaotic evil societies is that they don't have much going for them in way of security. Ogres and trolls have this too, but they're bound together at the family level (and even that low you get mothers eating their children).

Drow society, in order to function would need the more dutiful and responsible members around its outskirts, keeping the enemies out, while it rots from within.

Instead since they're a bad guy race, their armies and raiding parties are composed of blackhearted sneaks and their cities populated by people of almost cartoonish evil. And again, this would work if they had one unifying despot of such considerable power that the drow would have to capitulate instead of overthrow. And again, I don't think that works with 'demon worshipping drow' unless they have one chief demon. Otherwise when you get orders from one, you just go demon shopping until you find a patron you agree with, and this starts us in on the assumption that the demonic patrons give a damn about retaining a drow race.


Thinking about it some more, Earth has had Chaotic Evil societies that have persisted for decades without experiencing catastrophic population loss, and when somebody does invade them, they tend to regret it even if they technically succeeded and can't admit that the invasion was a bad decision. They tend to have warlords without demon lords, but despite differences in technical detail, the basic idea is similar to Drow society. The slow maturation rate of Drow just means that they have to do the whole failed state thing in slow motion, or have a larger than average disparity between the base and tip of the age pyramid.

Liberty's Edge

UnArcaneElection wrote:

Thinking about it some more, Earth has had Chaotic Evil societies that have persisted for decades without experiencing catastrophic population loss, and when somebody does invade them, they tend to regret it even if they technically succeeded and can't admit that the invasion was a bad decision. They tend to have warlords without demon lords, but despite differences in technical detail, the basic idea is similar to Drow society. The slow maturation rate of Drow just means that they have to do the whole failed state thing in slow motion, or have a larger than average disparity between the base and tip of the age pyramid.

I realize that it may be somewhat controversial, but just out of curiosity, what would be your examples of Earthly Chaotic Evil societies?


Of course in a society where the powerful rule and terrorize the weak it's not out of the realm of possibility that those in power, knowing the demographics don't exactly favor the Drow, force certain "population creation methods" onto their subordinates, for the "good of all".

Thus - there could easily be a large underclass of Drow whose sole purpose is to reproduce. Their hedonistic lifestyle would help perpetuate the race and perhaps this underclass is the reason behind the Drow reputation for hedonism to begin with. Any power mad matriarch could also use this as the basis for some eugenics experiments too. Breeding stock, essentially. The promising results are integrated into Noble Houses. The so-so stock join the Merchant Clans.

Add some customized magic into the mix to help with fertility rates and you can probably boost up population growth while maintaining a rather bloody CE society.

I also think that Drow would have to temper their destructive impulses to be a bit more refined, targeted, specific and intermittent. Drow, despite some literary portrayals, don't have to function on the level of "black mustache twirling, MUAHAHHAHAH I'm Evil so I'm going to backstab you for the LULZ at every opportunity with no regard to consequences " cartoon level violence. That's just as bad as Lawful Stupid for Paladins.

Silver Crusade

Dracovar wrote:

Of course in a society where the powerful rule and terrorize the weak it's not out of the realm of possibility that those in power, knowing the demographics don't exactly favor the Drow, force certain "population creation methods" onto their subordinates, for the "good of all".

Thus - there could easily be a large underclass of Drow whose sole purpose is to reproduce. Their hedonistic lifestyle would help perpetuate the race and perhaps this underclass is the reason behind the Drow reputation for hedonism to begin with. Any power mad matriarch could also use this as the basis for some eugenics experiments too. Breeding stock, essentially. The promising results are integrated into Noble Houses. The so-so stock join the Merchant Clans.

Add some customized magic into the mix to help with fertility rates and you can probably boost up population growth while maintaining a rather bloody CE society.

I also think that Drow would have to temper their destructive impulses to be a bit more refined, targeted, specific and intermittent. Drow, despite some literary portrayals, don't have to function on the level of "black mustache twirling, MUAHAHHAHAH I'm Evil so I'm going to backstab you for the LULZ at every opportunity with no regard to consequences " cartoon level violence. That's just as bad as Lawful Stupid for Paladins.

Ah but the point of the thread is, based on the canonical information provided for them, they are that level of 'for the evulz.' Hence this thread's existence.

They're cutthroat, backbiting, betray you at the drop of a hat, murderous, flesh manipulating monsters.

I keep thinking of the Phil and Dixie strips where every day drow comment on whipping their children, and husbands and wives end sentences with 'I hate you. AAAAAARGH.'

And there are cleverer drow, but the cleverer drow are going to have to deal with the stupider drow. For everyone who wants to be sneaky, and think his plans through, there's another gang of idiots who decide this is the day to honor Jubilex by releasing the plasma oozes.

As I said, the problem stems from them worshipping /all/ demons as a superficial way for Pathfinder drow to differentiate themselves from DnD Drow.

"We're still underground dwelling, dark skinned, CE hedonistic matriarchal jerks! But we don't worship spiders anymore. No sir, except for a few of us."

Without an infernal Kim-Il-Jong they lack a real guiding power in their society. Without a power so large and unassailable that you're better off capilutating with it as opposed to trying to overthrow it, the drow end up hopelessly segmented and lack a real cohesion.

This means, realistically, they're either they're a race in decline or someone somewhere is literally funneling order and capital into their society to keep it from self destructing. I have difficulty seeing why drow make 'cities' and not loose colonies underground.

It doesn't improve their survival at all when their "defenders" are just as likely to make lunch out of them as anyone else.

Silver Crusade Contributor

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Link, for the curious. ^_^


Spook205 wrote:
Icyshadow wrote:
I bet they have servants / slaves taking care of the children while the actual parents are busy with their political plots and backstabbings.

Assuming as a drow you can trust anyone to look after them, and assume that they fear you more then your enemies can bribe or cajole them, or overwhelm them with an attack. Or that you don't just do them in yourself for some sort of gain.

The problem with chaotic evil societies is that they don't have much going for them in way of security. Ogres and trolls have this too, but they're bound together at the family level (and even that low you get mothers eating their children).

Drow society, in order to function would need the more dutiful and responsible members around its outskirts, keeping the enemies out, while it rots from within.

Instead since they're a bad guy race, their armies and raiding parties are composed of blackhearted sneaks and their cities populated by people of almost cartoonish evil. And again, this would work if they had one unifying despot of such considerable power that the drow would have to capitulate instead of overthrow. And again, I don't think that works with 'demon worshipping drow' unless they have one chief demon. Otherwise when you get orders from one, you just go demon shopping until you find a patron you agree with, and this starts us in on the assumption that the demonic patrons give a damn about retaining a drow race.

Yeah, this pretty much sums up my problems. It also kinda hurts the "matriarchal" system, if I can be honest—realistically* speaking, when mothers are stuck at the home and unable to get sitters, it hurts their ability to take over the world. This traps them in the informal sector and prevents them from gaining influence in a developed society.

Perhaps drow have big nurseries managed by slaves of the society's ruler? That has its own problems, of course (you kind of expect drow to hide their kids from the government so they can't become Castle Wulfenbach-style leverage later on) but it works slightly better.

*YEAH I WENT THERE BUDDY


If sufficient magic's available, then nurseries managed by geased workers could do it. I.e., an actual magical compulsion that's overriding the normal "lash out and kill the annoying brats" instinct.

Fear of horrific (and possibly unending) retribution would be the other big thing to keep any such workers in line, though my impression is that the popular stance in this thread is that drow are chaotic stupid to the point of not even having a self-preservation instinct.


Risk vs. reward, Zhangar. "If I kill Lady Zakalaka's babies, Lady Akzziaaia will reward me with a new identity, protection, and vast riches and influence."

Nobody's saying the treachery isn't beneficial to the individual. Just not to the race as a whole.

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Except maybe Akzziaaia won't do that, because it means that it starts an open war with Zakalaka. They're Evil, not stupid.

Mutually assured destruction isn't the best doctrine, but it does appear to work sometimes.


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"And if Lady Akzziaaia smart, she's going to kill me herself because I just showed I could be bribed into murdering her offspring."

And now, here's my really horrible answer to the "pragmatic" solution for how

childrearing is handled in drow culture:

It's contracted out to that small segment of the population that actually wants to be with children all day, because they love children a bit too much.

We're looking a society that's messed up enough that that could be a normal part of growing up.

The kids that get to be raised by slaves are the lucky ones.


Zhangar wrote:
...though my impression is that the popular stance in this thread is that drow are chaotic stupid to the point of not even having a self-preservation instinct.

And therein lies a problem - if you want a Drowic society that has some functionality/sustainability they just can't be that Chaotic Stupid - despite portrayals in various modules (and books - but I'm not a fan of Salvatore by any means). Such portrayals should not be taken as canon, but as fictional plot devices (and lazy writing, frankly).

It's like passing off the worst Lawful Stupid behavior and considering it the norm and popular method to roleplay a Paladin.

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Zhangar wrote:

"And if Lady Akzziaaia smart, she's going to kill me herself because I just showed I could be bribed into murdering her offspring."

And now, here's my really horrible answer to the "pragmatic" solution for how ** spoiler omitted **

The kids that get to be raised by slaves are the lucky ones.

I didn't think a discussion of Drow senselessly betrayal-murdering each other into extinction could get any darker. But you found a way.


Zhangar wrote:

"And if Lady Akzziaaia smart, she's going to kill me herself because I just showed I could be bribed into murdering her offspring."

And now, here's my really horrible answer to the "pragmatic" solution for how ** spoiler omitted **

The kids that get to be raised by slaves are the lucky ones.

Use Simulacrums under specific orders not to kill/maim/etc the children.

Added bonus - kids can take out their murderous instincts on the sims without doing any actual damage to Drowic population numbers.


Ross Byers wrote:
Except maybe Akzziaaia won't do that, because it means that it starts an open war with Zakalaka. They're Evil, not stupid.

Wait, are you saying the house intrigue always stays peaceful and nonviolent? The houses don't really get along, and if they think they can avoid an open war, they'll totally go for stuff like this. Why do you think they're using a proxy?


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Dracovar wrote:
Zhangar wrote:
...though my impression is that the popular stance in this thread is that drow are chaotic stupid to the point of not even having a self-preservation instinct.

And therein lies a problem - if you want a Drowic society that has some functionality/sustainability they just can't be that Chaotic Stupid - despite portrayals in various modules (and books - but I'm not a fan of Salvatore by any means). Such portrayals should not be taken as canon, but as fictional plot devices (and lazy writing, frankly).

It's like passing off the worst Lawful Stupid behavior and considering it the norm and popular method to roleplay a Paladin.

So there's a big issue exposed right here.

R. A. Salvatore's works may be canon for the Forgotten Realms, but Golarion isn't the Forgotten Realms.

Other than the statistics and mechanics for the Drow, anything put out by Wizards of the Coast is their IP, or which makes use of their IP by permission, is not canonical for Golarion and largely *cannot be* except for the broadest elements.

The Advanced Race Guide, being "world-neutral", avoids Golarion-specific content but can serve as an ok baseline.

If you want to talk about the Drow in terms of Golarion canon, then you need to be looking mostly at what's in Second Darkness (especially part 3, "The Armageddon Echo", which has the support article "Drow of Golarion" in which topics such as child rearing are discussed, and "Endless Night" which is about daily life as a servant in a Drow noble family). There's a little in "Into the Darklands" and a bit more scattered in other sourcebooks, but the vast majority is in the Second Darkness AP.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Derek Vande Brake wrote:
Also in Golarion: Can't normal elves still become drow? It wasn't a one time event, but a distinct possibility for any modern elf that starts worshipping demons?

Yes, but it is literally a one time in a thousand years type of event, usually requiring special circumstances such as both exposure to the radiations of the Darklands, AND an especially evil act of passion. Plenty of evil elves exist which never become drow.

Drow continue to exist, because for all of the constant backstabbing and maneuvering, drow have developed a form of etiquette which discourages betrayals that weaken drow as a whole. So instead, it becomes a form of social darwinism, that weeds out the stupid, foolish, and the weak.

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kyrt-ryder wrote:
I think I'd take 14 years of diapers over 80 years of teenagers

You must hate dealing with fey. They're eternal teenagers.

==Aelryinth


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LazarX wrote:
Derek Vande Brake wrote:
Also in Golarion: Can't normal elves still become drow? It wasn't a one time event, but a distinct possibility for any modern elf that starts worshipping demons?
Yes, but it is literally a one time in a thousand years type of event, usually requiring special circumstances such as both exposure to the radiations of the Darklands, AND an especially evil act of passion. Plenty of evil elves exist which never become drow.

It is rare, but not that rare.

Second Darkness:
The storyline of Second Darkness has 2 instances in less than a century... and those the only discussed instances... the implication being that there could be a lot more... at any time.

Exactly what is required is not specified.. so it is a GM's call.. but there's no requirement for the "radiation of the Darklands" unless a GM specifies so in his/her own campaign. The especially evil action seems to be a key, though, and maybe a lifetime of gradually increasing intentions like that (at least from the two cases in the AP).

Which is why the Lantern Bearers are sent to murder anyone who finds out that there are Drow, or that the change from normal Elf to Drow can happen. They're not the benevolent organization they like to appear to be.. they're at least partially a hit squad for an arguably Lawful Evil shadow government among the Elves.

LazarX wrote:
Drow continue to exist, because for all of the constant backstabbing and maneuvering, drow have developed a form of etiquette which discourages betrayals that weaken drow as a whole. So instead, it becomes a form of social darwinism, that weeds out the stupid, foolish, and the weak.

Well, yes, much more so than random foam-at-the-mouth let's-kill-each-other caricatures.


Louis Lyons wrote:
I realize that it may be somewhat controversial, but just out of curiosity, what would be your examples of Earthly Chaotic Evil societies?

Failed states can be Chaotic Evil, and can persist for a while. Chaotic Evil can also be found in some exceptionally violent tribal societies (which have significant overlap with some of the aforementioned failed states). The Lord's Resistance Army appears to be another example. Note that some of the relevant groups of people advertise themselves as being paragons of order, but such "order" is at the whim of the individual warlords (and so on down in the pecking order), with no more than lip service to actual rule of law. Such societies are not specific to a particular ethnicity, and the tribal characteristics that they tend to have can be found among peoples not traditionally listed as tribal. Local foreshadowings of Chaotic Evil society (in practice, usually more Neutral Evil) can be found scattered around the United States (and not necessarily where any particular news outfit or other popular media would have you believe that they are confined to).

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Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Ross Byers wrote:
Except maybe Akzziaaia won't do that, because it means that it starts an open war with Zakalaka. They're Evil, not stupid.
Wait, are you saying the house intrigue always stays peaceful and nonviolent? The houses don't really get along, and if they think they can avoid an open war, they'll totally go for stuff like this. Why do you think they're using a proxy?

Using proxies is how cold wars stay cold. Killing your rivals children would have been like China going after the Nixon family dog (Checkers) as part of the Vietnam conflict. It makes it personal for no real advantage.


I think you're looking too far forward. Think less "Nixon family", more "Hapsburgs". Family members aren't just personal attachments—they're valuable tools of influence, especially in a society built on family intrigue.

Silver Crusade

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I'd like people to think on these grandiose magical solutions they come up with (simulacra, geased, charmed, dominated people).

This stuff is not available at the downtown drowmart.

Yes, a high level wizard or cleric might have this stuff but not every drow can afford it, and if we're being honest, the drow shouldn't be choc-a-bloc with high level guys anymore then normal people are.

THis would result in drow having to..
1.) Have a desire for the overall strength and growth of their community and/or race. Not customarily something chaotics are known for.
AND/OR
2.) Having to trust that the higher level person who can cast the geases/dominates isn't going to decide your kid is the one who arbitrarily gets fed to the dominated umber hulk to keep it more compliant.

Basically, as a CE drow wizard why would I bother with cultivating the serpent's nest of my own people if it basically just represents an expenditure for no gain? And even if its a whim of mine, is the collective whim of certain individuals sufficient to maintain a race? And to be particularly evil, why not just dominate an entire harem and just use magical compulsions from start to finish of the entire exchange?

The drow reducing themselves to some sort of eusocial spider hive is a potentially terrifying prospect, but might work better (sadly for that, drow males and females lack built in capabilities to compel the other).

Salvatore's stuff might have issues, but he did give us a semi-plausible framework for a CE society of drow. A framework which I believe falls apart when you put too many demons in the mix.


It's worth noting that in late D&D 3.5 times, WotC described Drow as being in between Chaotic Evil and Neutral Evil (I think this was in the book of the Drow (*) that they came out with during this time).

(*)can't remember exact name

Unlike D&D cosmology from AD&D 1.0 through 3.5, Pathfinder Campaign Setting doesn't have in-between alignment planes, although it wouldn't be too hard to add in a custom campaign setting.

Scarab Sages

I thought about this some and came up with a few ideas.

First, I would suggest that Drow birthrates are much higher than those of their surface kin. With their hedonistic tendancies and need to replenish their numbers amongst their families that are murdered and killed in conflict, families would take all measures (magical and mundane) to ensure the fertility of their women and that copulation resulted in pregancies as often as possible.

Second, if you review several pieces of fiction about the Drow Noble Houses (most of them from the Forgotten Realms line), open warfare between houses occur occasionally but often mostly involves warrior slaves of other races (orcs, goblins, giants, humans, dwarves, surface elves, gnomes, etc.) that are led by a smaller group of powerful drow warriors. Most of the casualties are slaves, and not the nobles themselves.

Silver Crusade

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Tarrintino wrote:

I thought about this some and came up with a few ideas.

First, I would suggest that Drow birthrates are much higher than those of their surface kin. With their hedonistic tendancies and need to replenish their numbers amongst their families that are murdered and killed in conflict, families would take all measures (magical and mundane) to ensure the fertility of their women and that copulation resulted in pregancies as often as possible.

Second, if you review several pieces of fiction about the Drow Noble Houses (most of them from the Forgotten Realms line), open warfare between houses occur occasionally but often mostly involves warrior slaves of other races (orcs, goblins, giants, humans, dwarves, surface elves, gnomes, etc.) that are led by a smaller group of powerful drow warriors. Most of the casualties are slaves, and not the nobles themselves.

Pregnancy is a disadvantageous situation to be in. Drow are presumably still like normal humanoids and becoming pregnant robs them increasingly of agility and overall 'combat' effectiveness.

Even if we presume safety within a family unit (a presumption I'm not willing to make given what we've heard of the drow of golarian), this means that its fundementally disadvantageous for a CE character to become pregnant as it puts her head on the block so to speak. She either has to hide, act through intermediaries (who she has no reason trust), or put herself into dangerous situations that make it less likely that she will successfully bring her child to term.

Also. And I don't want to belabor this point. Not every drow is a noble.

They don't all have houses.

How do you raise children when every night that passes is essentially an elfish re-enactment of the Purge movies in your neighborhood? When you don' have stout walls and enslaved warapes to defend you and yours?

And if the answer is to throw behind houses, this enters into the world of feudalism at which point things only work if the higher ups are CE and the low level folks are NE and even LE. And were that the case, the drow racial alignment probably shouldn't skew CE.

After all, if your vassals can't be counted on to reliably hold to oaths then their own loyalty to you is until the next bigger guy shows up, and thus you have no rational reason to admit them, waste resources defending them, and so on.


Spook205 wrote:

Also. And I don't want to belabor this point. Not every drow is a noble.

They don't all have houses.

How do you raise children when every night that passes is essentially an elfish re-enactment of the Purge movies in your neighborhood? When you don' have stout walls and enslaved warapes to defend you and yours?

And if the answer is to throw behind houses, this enters into the world of feudalism at which point things only work if the higher ups are...

I don't really agree that a feudal system you describe for the drow really reflects a LE mindset. The Drow commoners back the noble houses in the scenario outlined above due to pure self interest, not some sort of respect for tradition or belief in their leaders/chain of command, which is what I think a LE alignment would more represent.

I mean chaotic evil doesn't equal chaotic crazy. A chaotic evil individual is fully capable of taking commands, especially if the commands come from a powerful house with people full of high class levels, advanced spellcasting, slave armies and bound outsiders, and powerful artifacts. Most Drow commoners are going to realize that they are so outmatched that they are not going work against the nobles.

As for the nobles themselves, they live for hundreds of years and I imagine that power is fairly static in the long term. Simply speaking, once you accumulate that much power, it makes it a lot easier to hold on to. And the heads of each family are through darwinian selection going to represent the most powerful and cunning Drow around. They are going to work against the other families in subtle ways that keeps the status quo of Drow in place. Again, out of self interest, not some sort of love of order.

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Pregnancy has little effect on the functioning of spellcasters. We tend to place a lot of value on protecting pregnant people, it's a racial compulsion. Drow are probably not immune to it, and the fact a pregnant spellcaster can still Meteor Swarm you means they are not helpless.

Plus, its a very short span individually in the life of a drow, and with magic can be recovered from in literally minutes (Restoration and Cure spells FTW!)

The drow in FR ARE more fecund then normal elves. Since they butcher one another a lot, it keeps the status quo.

Note that House warfare in FR comes with strings attached...you must kill EVERYTHING. If you leave even ONE NOBLE alive, every other noble house gangs up and eliminates you. You're on a time limit, you have to strike hard, fast, and completely mercilessly, otherwise you've just committed suicide.

So, House conflicts are done through proxies. Ergo, joining a house and only having to deal with internal conflicts is much safer then being able to be victimized by any random House, stranger, or what not as a 'free drow'. It's why Jarlxle's band can survive...rule #1 is not to prey on one another. Anyone else is fair game....just like the Noble Houses.

Oh, and Get Paid. Very important.

==Aelryinth

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MMCJawa wrote:
Spook205 wrote:

Also. And I don't want to belabor this point. Not every drow is a noble.

They don't all have houses.

How do you raise children when every night that passes is essentially an elfish re-enactment of the Purge movies in your neighborhood? When you don' have stout walls and enslaved warapes to defend you and yours?

And if the answer is to throw behind houses, this enters into the world of feudalism at which point things only work if the higher ups are...

I don't really agree that a feudal system you describe for the drow really reflects a LE mindset. The Drow commoners back the noble houses in the scenario outlined above due to pure self interest, not some sort of respect for tradition or belief in their leaders/chain of command, which is what I think a LE alignment would more represent.

I mean chaotic evil doesn't equal chaotic crazy. A chaotic evil individual is fully capable of taking commands, especially if the commands come from a powerful house with people full of high class levels, advanced spellcasting, slave armies and bound outsiders, and powerful artifacts. Most Drow commoners are going to realize that they are so outmatched that they are not going work against the nobles.

As for the nobles themselves, they live for hundreds of years and I imagine that power is fairly static in the long term. Simply speaking, once you accumulate that much power, it makes it a lot easier to hold on to. And the heads of each family are through darwinian selection going to represent the most powerful and cunning Drow around. They are going to work against the other families in subtle ways that keeps the status quo of Drow in place. Again, out of self interest, not some sort of love of order.

In any system where you have 'levels', age = power.

It's REALLY hard to turn someone out of power who just gets stronger as they get older, unlike the real world. Here, 'age' is 'accumulated money'. And even that isn't going to save you in many cases.

When you start in adding centuries of lifespan, it just gets worse.

Tyranny of Age should definitely be a thing in fantasy realms.

==Aelryinth

Liberty's Edge

Aelryinth wrote:
Pregnancy has little effect on the functioning of spellcasters. We tend to place a lot of value on protecting pregnant people, it's a racial compulsion. Drow are probably not immune to it, and the fact a pregnant spellcaster can still Meteor Swarm you means they are not helpless.

While there are no rules in the canon regarding the effects of pregnancy on elves or any other race (not to my knowledge anyway), those of us who have had pregnant women in our lives can tell you that pregnancy generally can and does have a pretty major impact on women. If elven biology is anything remotely similar to humans or other terrestrial mammals, with dramatic hormonal shifts, pregnancy can end up being a major hindrance. Sure, the Drow Matriarch can cast Meteor Swarm, but what happens when she suddenly suffers from the nauseated condition brought on by Elven Morning Sickness? I suppose that they could have a loyal/dominated midwife cleric casting Remove Sickness on them at all hours. But that is probably a luxury that most drow could not afford.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

Kobold Cleaver wrote:
I think you're looking too far forward. Think less "Nixon family", more "Hapsburgs". Family members aren't just personal attachments—they're valuable tools of influence, especially in a society built on family intrigue.

Even with the Hapsburgs, you don't go after the next generation of heirs. You undermine their power base, sabotage their projects, steal their supporters...when you start going after the heirs you start a war, always.


I'd suspect that there's a number of behaviors that drow avoid simply because it gives other drow significant incentive to commit homicide.

Emancipating slaves, praising the sun, killing pregnant drow, etc. - all activities that let the other drow know that you need to die ASAP.

If other drow know that you'll take advantage of a pregnancy to commit homicide, then they have a vested interest in getting rid of you for their own safety.

The main mechanism that keeps drow in check is fear of retribution from other drow - piss off someone stronger than you, or a critical mass of people weaker than you, and the best you can hope for is a clean death.

A really arrogant drow might do so anyways. And I suspect they normally die or worse.


Sure a noble drow doesn't want to be disadvantaged by being pregnant, but the house slaves (drow) do not have the luxury of deciding to not get/stay pregnant. Just because the matron and her daughters don't stay pregnant doesn't mean there isn't a caste of women in the house that do.

Drow society isn't total annihilation. They can go to drug dens with a reasonable expectation of survival, or the drug den wouldn't exist. There are public baths as well were they can feel secure enough to get cleaned up, even pampered.

Chaotic Evil is not Chaotic Stupid.


Louis Lyons wrote:

{. . .}

While there are no rules in the canon regarding the effects of pregnancy on elves or any other race (not to my knowledge anyway), those of us who have had pregnant women in our lives can tell you that pregnancy generally can and does have a pretty major impact on women. If elven biology is anything remotely similar to humans or other terrestrial mammals, with dramatic hormonal shifts, pregnancy can end up being a major hindrance. Sure, the Drow Matriarch can cast Meteor Swarm, but what happens when she suddenly suffers from the nauseated condition brought on by Elven Morning Sickness? I suppose that they could have a loyal/dominated midwife cleric casting Remove Sickness on them at all hours. But that is probably a luxury that most drow could not afford.

The difference between different people on Earth with respect to pregnancy side effects is considerable. Now, put that together with really stringent selection (enforced initially by the Demons that rule over the Drow, and later by the Drow themselves), and the population will, over the course of a few tens of generations (which Golarion has had even with the long Drow lifespan and slow maturation rate), become composed of Drow who do not have these problems.(*)

(*)Edit: Such side effects may have been as common among early Drow as among Elves and Humans, but anyone who had those problems just died and did not leave descendents, so the present Drow population does not have those problems. Drow are almost certainly aware of the effect that this Darwinian selection has had on them, and use it to justify continuation of their society as it is. The one thing that doesn't jive with this is that Drow are specified as having a Constitution penalty -- if anything, they should have a Constitution BONUS (although conceivably retaining a hit point penalty that partiall ofsets it).

Also, the chief breeder cast MUST include the matriarchs, or the matriarchs die out and get replaced by breeders who can keep breeding while being matriarchs. This has likely already occurred . . . .

The Exchange

Dale McCoy Jr wrote:
The mindflayers keep them alive to help keep the old ones asleep.

Shhhh. There is that proprietary creature name that shall not be mentioned. Like the flying sphere with appendages of ocular nature and lots of teeth...


What, the beholder?


Well, I suppose it could be a mutated Flying Spaghetti Monster . . . .


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Khmer Rouge...pretty chaotic evil.


Honestly i feel like if there was anyone else close to the drow that had the capabilities to pose a threat to them they could easily be wiped out. Most Darkland races pose no threat:

The various Darkland fey are too rare to pose a threat.

Derro are neither numerous and they could care less about the drow when they have their sights set on the surface.

Trogs are too disorganized and primitive in their current state to pose a threat.

Vegepygmies may have a reason to attack the drow but are hopelessly out matched.

I don't think the Darkfolk have the power to stand a threat. They could win battles against drow but not any sort of war.

Mongrelmen are just... pathetic

Grimlocks no longer exist. Kinda a shame i liked Grimlocks but they aren't needed

Svirfneblin don't have the man power.

The Serpentfolk are obviously too decimated to be a threat as of right now.

Skum are neither a threat nor do they probably care about the drow all that much.

Morlocks are too barbaric.

Gugs: Ditto

Dire Corbies are just... well give it a couple years and they will kill themselves off.

The problem however is that there are several races that could be a threat.

I don't think the Ghouls have a large enough population but I feel like if they tried they could make a big dent in the drow population

Duergar like most people have pointed out seem to be good candidates at are more or less the rivals of the Drow.

I think the biggest threats would be from Orv though. Either the Neothelids or the urdefhans could probably wipe the Drow from the face of the Darklands if they were so inlcined

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