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I'm running a PbP of The Confirmation using all vigilantes. Right now, people are finalizing characters at the start of the game.
Current worries and concerns from the players:
While the class might be good for campaigns, there's a lot of worry how it will work in shorter one-shot things like PFS. Most of the time, you won't be able to have time to get your renown setup in an area.
Others are concerned that they could build the same concepts easier in other classes.
First level seems to lack some of the things that could make the class a little more unique. At the moment it just comes with the very basics and a mask/cape.
I'll keep this updated as things go on.
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Just in getting started making a stalker character, I have a few thoughts. (When reading these comments, keep in mind that I only play PFS, and really only play PbP, so that perspective may be relevant).
1. It really feels like a weak rogue, but with some neat powers to grow into. But nothing on the list would make me want to wait for it - so it might be an ok class if I was building higher level to start, but not great for working my way up.
2. The fact that it is not a rogue has some complications. For instance, I wanted to take advantage of the stealth and high dex to give the character a bag of tricks "Where does he get those wonderful toys?" - smokebombs, poisons, etc. To do this, though seems to require either a level of alchemist, or a poisoner rogue dip. For me, while I like to multiclass, I think a class needs to stand well on its own, and so something to help with "toys" would really be good for lower levels. But that also brings me to the next point...
3. The stalker does not have a "sneak attack", but instead has the less powerful "hidden strike". So, if I have a Vigilante(Stalker) 1 / Rogue (Poisoner) 1 character, would they be getting damage + 1d6 (SA) and + 1d6 (HS) at second level? It seems to me that you wouldn't want these to stack this way, but instead have the bonus based on a sum of the class levels (as I often see for other abilities). Why is it hidden strike instead of sneak attack anyway? Was it just to make it more limited?
4. Overall, I think the dual identities does not go far enough. From a theatrical point of view, it is great to switch personalities, but there isn't a big enough switch in abilities to really make it seem valuable. I think it would be better if "by day, he is a scientist crafting concoctions and gadgets in the lab" (meaning bonuses to calm pursuits), and "by night, his mind focuses on stealth and guile" (bonus to those skills only). More of a two characters swap positions sort of thing.
As it is, I would make Vigilante a template you could add to a character rather than making a separate class.
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A few other observations I've been thinking about.
Dual Identity/Social Grace seems like a pretty good option for a 1 level dip. A 1 level dip seems like infinitely better to actually play a Vigilante where flavor and mechanics actually work and are practical. Playing a straight Vigilante just doesn't.
Stalkers don't seem to get Trap Finding, so magical traps are basically a threat the Vigilante can't deal with. Not really a complaint as much as an observation, and does kind of suggest once again the Vigilante is just a weaker version of something else.
Dual Identity, outside of the above 1 level dip aspect, really seems like it needs to increase with levels. I don't think it makes a lot of sense that a beginning Vigilante as basically an air tight alternate identity and immunity. Even looking at a lot of the vigilante superheros ideas it's supposed to emulate and draw from, it's an ever present aspect of Spider-Man that he needs to hide his identity and doing so is a constant problem, even from other heroes and friends. Similarly, Batman didn't just start out as basically two different people. He had to work at it, establishing his billioniar playboy persona as completely different than his dark knight one, but also in making sure that he hired different people to help him build his different equipment so that no one would recognize it. Ironman kept everyone guessing for years by announcing he was Ironman, and then in the middle of his speech having someone else in the armor (or later remote controlled armor) fly by and battle during his speech. I just wish it was both less absolute at level one onwards and also something that progressed with levels, (even if it was based on Character Level and not Class Level).
Avengers seem to have a poor Fort, which looks like it will hurt. A lot.
I honestly wonder if it would not be better to just drop the Specializations, particularly the Talent choices and just have a single class that can pick from any of them as they see fit. Too many of them just seem just as appropriate for other Specializations, if not moreso. Zealot can't take Concealed Casting, Elemental Battle Armor, or Mystic Bolts? Why??? Stalker can't take Armor Silence or Armor Skin? Seems tailor made for the Stalker, not the Avenger.
Avengers seem to have a poor Fort, which looks like it will hurt. A lot.
If you're looking at them as "Fighter with skill ranks", I would trade good Fort for good Will any day of the week.
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I honestly wonder if it would not be better to just drop the Specializations, particularly the Talent choices and just have a single class that can pick from any of them as they see fit.
I completely agree with this idea.
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Color me underwhelmed, overall. There are some neat things in the Vigilante class, but this Avenger is basically a Fighter with one less combat feat and no weapon or armor training. Nice skill options though. I think there should probably be a restriction on how often the Combat Feat talent can be taken.
It seems to me the Vigilante should either be four separate classes or, better yet, the talents should be all in one big pool.
I like the initial specializations, but would prefer them as selections more like a Ranger's Combat Style--a useful ability that doesn't so totally define the character. It seems like the Avenger should also get bonus HP equal to his Avenger levels.
The Stalker's throat jab thing really annoys me. Great ability, but it shouldn't require taking 4 levels in a specific class for a character to learn how to smack somebody's vocal chords.
3. The stalker does not have a "sneak attack", but instead has the less powerful "hidden strike". So, if I have a Vigilante(Stalker) 1 / Rogue (Poisoner) 1 character, would they be getting damage + 1d6 (SA) and + 1d6 (HS) at second level? It seems to me that you wouldn't want these to stack this way, but instead have the bonus based on a sum of the class levels (as I often see for other abilities). Why is it hidden strike instead of sneak attack anyway? Was it just to make it more limited?
Right now, I think you would - as long as you attack unaware. If you're just flanking, it's +1d6+1d4.
Unless they have any concealment. Then it's just the 1d4 Hidden Strike (except for Unchained Rogue). But even the Unchained Rogue can't get Sneak Attack against total concealment - the Stalker can (Strike the Unseen). And at only a 25% chance of auto-missing, plus at 11th level (10 Slayer, 1 Poisoner) you get your sneak attack back.
As for how you find them? Shadow Sight at fourth level, or if you want to pull out Deeper Darkness (or other method of giving everybody total concealment that's not darkness), go Half-Orc with Keen Scent.
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From a level 1 perspective after GMing a party of 6 Vigilantes through a couple encounters, I think Dual Identity needs to be moved up to level 2 or 3 with a lesser version at 1st level. Maybe just start out with a high bonus to disguise for 1st and 2nd level with it becoming the current incarnation of Dual Identity at 3rd level. A first level character generally isn't doing anything big enough where they have to worry about people wanting to scry them. Also, the local constables will also likely have bigger fish to fry for those first couple levels as well.
This would allow some space to give the characters their base specialization thing they have currently, but also add something else small to give them some uniqueness. Other than wearing a mask and cape at level 1, the characters have no class abilities that that make them feel special. I think giving them a second thing for picking their specialization would go a long way toward helping out the starting feel of the class. *cough*ChaosBoltForWarlock*cough*
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On another note: There needs to be a bard specialization that banters and monologues at their foe starting a prepared speech about how feeble you are compared to him, how inevitable your defeat is, how the world will soon be his. Yadda, yadda, yadda.this ain't that kind of adventurer....
Villains have classes, too. ;)
Villains have classes, too. ;)On another note: There needs to be a bard specialization that banters and monologues at their foe starting a prepared speech about how feeble you are compared to him, how inevitable your defeat is, how the world will soon be his. Yadda, yadda, yadda.this ain't that kind of adventurer....
Think that was a reference to Kingsman.
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Now that the game is over, I can say I found the Zealot rather underwhelming. This was also the original version, though it looks like the updated version would have actually been even worse, destroying the already difficult flavor.
Poor rolling on my part made it difficult to do much with a DC higher than a 10, and needing to split skills between being a Vigilante and also a Divine Caster hurt a lot.
I'd have to say the high point of the class was literally casting Bless to buff the party and an NPC, which is, well pretty lame.
It didn't take long for me to start feeling like I'd rather play, well, just about anything else. The Zealot just didn't really have any oomph, and didn't fill the shoes of any of the roles it kind of aims to be. It's not a Cleric, it's not a Rogue, it's not an Inquisitor, it's not a Paladin.
That's actually, now that I think about it, probably the best correlation I can think of. It's like playing a Low Point Buy Paladin at level one in a lot of ways. It doesn't really have the skills yet it needs to do it's full job, is pretty MAD, and basically has one trick it can do 1/Day. The problem is, the level 1 Paladin grows out of that. The Zealot doesn't, or at least not in any reasonable amount of time. The Zealot just isn't great, or even good at anything. It's poor to passable at different things, but overall very boring, and really, looking through both the original and the updated version, not a single thing (Talents) even so much as jumped out at me to make me go "Dang, I can't wait till I get that". Not one. Comparing it to the Warlock, or rather the Warlock's Talent options, it's pretty clear that the Zealot was given the most meager scraps, and the designers loved the Warlock and just felt like they had to present the Zealot to cover all four basics. I'm honestly also very curious what sort of reasoning put certain talents on the Warlock's lists and not the Zealot's where they make a lot more sense. Or at the very least, some, making sense for both, should be from a shared pool.
The Inquisitor Spell list, at least as the main and only option is just not the way to go. It makes sense FOR THE Inquisitor, but, and especially with how limited the spellcasting is even maxed out, just does not work here.
I do not like the Cha based casting, personally, and even more so when the Fey Harbor allows the Druid List too. First off, why the hell is it only the Fey Harbor and why are they getting access to the strongest Divine spellcasting list in the game? Seriously, what is the logic there? Might sound cool on paper, but these two things combined just do not work too well. If you want to go Cha based, (not a fan), give them the Oracle spelllist with similar bonus spells. Otherwise make it work just like a Cleric with a few themed extra spell options. Preferably not tied to Domains.
I'm seriously considering playing a Adept over a Zealot. I think, and this is even true if, as I've strongly suspected that the entire Vigilante is actually meant to be a NPC class entirely, that the Adept does the core "zealot vigilante" job better than the Zealot does. By adding more or less levels of Aristocrat, it can make it pretty similar to the full or limited Divine Training Zealot, (though with a poorer Refl).
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I agree with Beckett on this.
GMing and looking at the Zealot, it doesn't have very many cool thematic things. This is sad, because there are all sorts of existing divine abilities that would go very well with the Zealot specialization.
Actually, just replacing vigilante talents with oracle mysteries is a lot better in most cases and builds more interesting vigilantes than what we can right now.
The current revision "divine power" sources already lean this direction, but take a sorcerer outlook instead of oracle one, but the available abilities listed just aren't all that interesting. Sure, there are a couple, but conjuring a set of armor out of bones, breath attacks, being able to walk on liquids like they were stone, using the reflection in a sword to be able to scry, and others that come from the Oracle list punch things up.
I also don't like the alignment requirements on the different divine power types there are currently. Damien Hellstrom and Ghost Rider are great examples of heroes who don't let their profane powers stop them from fighting for good. There are lots of examples of devil and demon themed good guys and right now they're not really allowed.
Warlock, stalker, and avenger I think are pretty good. I like warlock's theme, but rolled up an avenger.
