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Take for example the Snakebite Striker and the Strangler archetypes for the Brawler. The Strangler adds stealth just like Snakebite Striker so does that mean they can't be stacked or what? Or like the Shadow Caller and Blood Summoner. I'm looking for any and all help that y'all can provide!
Class skills are part of the features of that class, as far as I'm aware. I believe that by RAW they cannot both be applied, however I would personally say it's fine to take it if both archetypes don't mess with the same skills.
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Take for example the Snakebite Striker and the Strangler archetypes for the Brawler. The Strangler adds stealth just like Snakebite Striker so does that mean they can't be stacked or what? Or like the Shadow Caller and Blood Summoner. I'm looking for any and all help that y'all can provide!The rules say no. Skills are one class feature. Since both archetypes modify the same feature, they can not be stacked.
I disagree.
Each class I look at comes in this format:
Class Name
Description
Role
Alignment
HD
Wealth
Skills
Class Features
Based on these class descriptions where skills are listed before and separately from class features, I don't think skills are class features.
Furthermore, looking at Archetypes that modify skills (e.g. Strangler), it says "gain [skill] as a class skill." but it doesn't say "this replaces [skill]" (at least I didn't find one that says it this way).
So, as I see it, skills are not class features and not subject to the rule that you can't take two archetypes that replace the same class feature.
That actually seems quite clear and I would only raise doubts if there is some archetype that explicitly says "replace [skill x] with [skill y]" - if such an archetype exists, it might raise a doubt, but I think even then it shouldn't really matter, though I would say a second archetype that replaces the same [skill x] would be ineligible since the character no longer has [skill x] anymore (replaced by first archetype) - if such archetypes exist. And even if they did, their existence would add support to my initial explanation that, for all other archetypes that are not replacing skills, there is no conflict.
Class skills fall together as something that is modified. I don't if there's a FAQ or just a developer comments saying that changing skills, even if adding skills, is enough to stop another archetype from doing anything with skills.
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Class skills are clearly a class feature by definition... and of course the name does have the word "class" in it. Each class skill is not a separate feature, it's a package deal.
And yet, each class has a list of "Class Features". Which makes "Class Features" a game term, not merely an English phrase loosely describing all things related to a class.
And "Skills" are listed separately from "Class Features", making "Skills" a game term too. And since it's separate from the "Class Features" game term, they don't overlap.
Two different things.
If it were just dictionary definitions, I might agree, but they're clearly defined game terms. Separate game terms.
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I will start by saying that this is going to be a complicated thread.
I present evidence A: class skills are not under the class features header.
I'd only actually be concerned if they both removed the same class skill.
That's kinda what some folks in the thread are saying ...I will start by saying that this is going to be a complicated thread.
I present evidence A: class skills are not under the class features header.
I noticed
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So, the question is: Are Skills considered Class Features when comparing Archetypes.
Might I suggest as many people as possible FAQ *this* post (because the Developers have requested that a question be stated as clearly and concisely as possible) and we'll see if we can get it officially clarified
So, the question is: Are Skills considered Class Features when comparing Archetypes.
Might I suggest as many people as possible FAQ *this* post (because the Developers have requested that a question be stated as clearly and concisely as possible) and we'll see if we can get it officially clarified
I guess I may have been a little too vague in my request...^^' Thanks for helping to clarify it, Radle.
I would say that if all the archetype is doing is adding to the class skill list then they should be able to stack. If on the other hand they are both taking away the same skill then they should not be able to stack. The way I see it is the class skill list is actually more of a group of related class features instead of a single class feature. Each class skill is its own separate class feature.
There is a precedent for this in the paladins archetypes. Each Oath adds spells to the paladins spell list. It specifically states that a paladin can take multiple oaths as long as they do not replace or alter the same class feature.
If Oaths didn't have the line saying you could take many then you'd be stuck at one oath as they alter spells. Skills are all lumped together. That's the "official" stance. On a few cases they say this is official, but here's a good houserule.
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The ACG section on class design also refers to skills, hit die, BAB, and spellcasting as basic class features, or in other words class features all classes have. They are just not "class name" class features.
I can't find where the ACG uses the phrase "basic class features." In the Designing Classes section I see Base Attack Bonus, Hit Dice, Saving Throws, Skills, and Spellcasting referred to as "Basic Mechanics."
Basic Mechanics
When designing the mechanical components of a class, begin with the basics present in all of them. The choices you make for these components will help inform the choices you make when it comes to the components and features that are specific to the class.
The Basic Mechanics section is followed by the Class Features section which starts with a sentence that distinguishes between Basic Mechanics (which includes the class skills list) and Class Features.
Class Features
Once you have the basic mechanics sorted out, it's time to start designing class features. These are the mechanics that a class gets as it gains levels, and each feature grants it powers and abilities that make it stand out from the other classes in the game.
So I think that the ACG Designing Classes chapter actually supports DM_Blake's argument.
Edit: Looking further into the Designing Classes section I came across this from the Archetype Design portion.
Design Principles
Most of the design work on an archetype has to do with class features. As a general rule, most of the base mechanics do not change. Base attack bonus, Hit Dice, and saving throws almost never change, while skills and spellcasting need not be altered unless the archetype specifically calls for it.Replacing Class Features: The key to creating a successful archetype is deciding which class features to replace and what to replace them with. Generally speaking, primary class features are the hardest to replace and you should do so very carefully, whereas secondary features have a much lighter impact on the class and are more easily exchanged with new features.
Once again the Base Mechanics, including skills, are distinguished from the Class Features.
If Class Skills are being changed by the archetype, it must mean that Class Skills count as a class feature along with the other items I mentioned above.
That is the way that I have always thought about this issue. But putting the Class Skills list before the "Class Features" section of every class description, combined with the sections that I quoted above, makes DM_Blake's interpretation compatible with RAW. This question has cropped up a couple of times. A FAQ would be nice.
I would say that if all the archetype is doing is adding to the class skill list then they should be able to stack. If on the other hand they are both taking away the same skill then they should not be able to stack. The way I see it is the class skill list is actually more of a group of related class features instead of a single class feature. Each class skill is its own separate class feature.
There is a precedent for this in the paladins archetypes. Each Oath adds spells to the paladins spell list. It specifically states that a paladin can take multiple oaths as long as they do not replace or alter the same class feature.
How is that a precedent? Archetypes have the same restrictions as Paladin oaths.
You wanted a rules answer and I gave you one. It happens to be an answer you don't like. That's fine. The only person that needs to agree is your GM.
The fact that paladin oaths have the same restrictions as other archetypes was the point. Paladin oaths are archetypes. All paladin oaths add spells to the paladins spell list. Since spell lists are obviously class features this sets the precedent that two archetypes can add to the same feature.
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We're not going to agree on this. The list of a skills which are class skills for a class as far as I'm concerned is a class feature. That's my position, and we can just agree to disagree on this.
You wanted a rules answer and I gave you one. It happens to be an answer you don't like. That's fine. The only person that needs to agree is your GM.
The bolded parts are logically incompatible.
Your "rules answer" happens to have no "rules" in it. Your only supporting argument for your answer are your "concerns". It's fine that you've made up your mind and you're dead-set on never coming to an agreement, but your horse is a bit too high if you're also going to claim that "as far as you're concerned" = "rules".
I think you need to back up your "rules" with some actual rules rather than concerns, or you need to stop calling them "rules" and start referring to them as "opinions". Until you do, I think we need to agree to disagree that your answer is based on any "rules" at all.
Since this is the Rules Questions forums, if you're going to answer with opinions rather than rules, you should be clear to label them as such.
Um... no. The bard has a feature that gives you abilities to use skills in different ways.
That doesn't mean the skills aren't skills or somehow get shifted because if you don't have that class feature you still have the skills as they normally are.
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The rules say no. Skills are one class feature. Since both archetypes modify the same feature, they can not be stacked.I disagree.
There were also people that thought crossblooded and wildblooded stacked. Turns out they don't.
These both modify a class feature. The skills the class grants. I'm aware you somehow think the skills are not a class feature, I disagree with you.
I do see the posts asserting that there is a difference between "basic class features" and "{classname} class features." So there may be alternate interpretations. Ask the GM.
The question seems to come down to is the list of class skills a class feature into itself, or is it a list of separate class features.
Class Skills
In addition, each class has a number of favored skills, called class skills. It is easier for your character to become more proficient in these skills, as they represent part of his professional training and constant practice. You gain a +3 bonus on all class skills that you put ranks into. If you have more than one class and both grant you a class skill bonus, these bonuses do not stack.
The number of skill ranks you gain when taking a level in one of the base classes is shown on Table: Skill Ranks. Humans gain 1 additional skill rank per class level. Characters who take a level in a favored class have the option of gaining 1 additional skill rank or an additional hit point . If you select a level in a new class, all of its class skills are automatically added to your list of class skills, and you gain a +3 bonus on these skills if you have ranks in them.
This to me seems to indicate that the second interpretation is the correct one. It clearly calls out that you get a bonus on a number of different skills depending on your class. The only place it mentions a “list of class skills” is the section on multiclassing. This clearly means that your list of class skills combines all class skills. Since your list of class skills is derived from more than one class it cannot be a class feature.
The rules say no. Skills are one class feature. Since both archetypes modify the same feature, they can not be stacked.I disagree.There were also people that thought crossblooded and wildblooded stacked. Turns out they don't.
These both modify a class feature. The skills the class grants. I'm aware you somehow think the skills are not a class feature, I disagree with you.
Um.. they both alter multiple class features. Arcana, bonus spells known, and bloodline abilities.
Crossblooded literally alter all three of those, as such you can't take another archetype that alters any one of them -- which wildblooded does.
Skills have nothing to do with it.
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Crossblooded literally alter all three of those, as such you can't take another archetype that alters any one of them -- which wildblooded does.
We spent years with people saying they stack. They said they stacked because Crossblooded only ADDS. It never replaces or changes. It only adds both x and y.
This example in this thread only adds. It adds a skill to the class skill list for each archetype.
Crossblooded literally alter all three of those, as such you can't take another archetype that alters any one of them -- which wildblooded does.We spent years with people saying they stack. They said they stacked because Crossblooded only ADDS. It never replaces or changes. It only adds both x and y.
This example in this thread only adds. It adds a skill to the class skill list for each archetype.
Adding is altering. It doesn't matter if it adds, subtracts, or simply renames. If a class feature is altered then you can't alter it further.
I thought they stacked because I thought wild-blooded was simply a 'short cut' for new bloodlines in and of themselves (which was what many people thought), however when it became clear they were actually archetypes themselves it becomes obvious that you can't stack it with cross-blooded, because cross-blooded alters the arcana, the bonus spells, and each of the blood-line abilities.
EDIT: To clarify, I am not making a stand on skills one way or the other, only that your example of choice is a poor one due to the fact that there are other factors that cause the two archetypes to not stack.
Instead it would be better to find two archetypes that both alter class skills but don't otherwise overlap in anyway, shape or form.
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the wild-blooded archetype is an egregious mishap from the dev team. Had they been worded like subdomains we wouldn't have a lot of these problems.
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To show that this is becoming more of a frequently asked question (one component of being considered for FAQ) I present to you the last time this exact question was brought up.
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I would only raise doubts if there is some archetype that explicitly says "replace [skill x] with [skill y]" - if such an archetype exists, it might raise a doubt, but I think even then it shouldn't really matter, though I would say a second archetype that replaces the same [skill x] would be ineligible since the character no longer has [skill x] anymore (replaced by first archetype) - if such archetypes exist. And even if they did, their existence would add support to my initial explanation that, for all other archetypes that are not replacing skills, there is no conflict.
Beast Master archetype from the APG.
I would only raise doubts if there is some archetype that explicitly says "replace [skill x] with [skill y]" - if such an archetype exists, it might raise a doubt, but I think even then it shouldn't really matter, though I would say a second archetype that replaces the same [skill x] would be ineligible since the character no longer has [skill x] anymore (replaced by first archetype) - if such archetypes exist. And even if they did, their existence would add support to my initial explanation that, for all other archetypes that are not replacing skills, there is no conflict.Beast Master archetype from the APG.
urban barbarian outright replaces the entire skill list, iirc.
The fact that paladin oaths have the same restrictions as other archetypes was the point. Paladin oaths are archetypes. All paladin oaths add spells to the paladins spell list. Since spell lists are obviously class features this sets the precedent that two archetypes can add to the same feature.I would say that if all the archetype is doing is adding to the class skill list then they should be able to stack. If on the other hand they are both taking away the same skill then they should not be able to stack. The way I see it is the class skill list is actually more of a group of related class features instead of a single class feature. Each class skill is its own separate class feature.
There is a precedent for this in the paladins archetypes. Each Oath adds spells to the paladins spell list. It specifically states that a paladin can take multiple oaths as long as they do not replace or alter the same class feature.
How is that a precedent? Archetypes have the same restrictions as Paladin oaths.
You wanted a rules answer and I gave you one. It happens to be an answer you don't like. That's fine. The only person that needs to agree is your GM.
The example of paladin oaths is completely irrelevant to this discussion. It is a case of specific trumping general. The general rule is that two archetypes that both modify the same class feature cannot be taken. Paladin oaths specifically create an exception. That does not then invalidate the general rule.
The question remains whether or not skills are considered class features. For that I have clicked the FAQ above.
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To show that this is becoming more of a frequently asked question (one component of being considered for FAQ) I present to you the last time this exact question was brought up.
Unfortunately it doesn't look like anyone clicked FAQ in that thread ...
We are up to 35 FAQ requests now, which means this will certainly be at least seen by the design team and hopefully clarified.
Keep clicking the FAQ!!! :)
As I stated before the list of class skills is not a class feature. A class feature by definition is only affected by the class that it is a feature of. There are specific cases where one class feature can affect another, but those are exceptions not the rule. The fact is that you have a single list of class skill no matter how many classes you have or what class granted you the status of class skill. Pathfinder did away with the rule that if you put skill points into a skill from a different class that the level you gained it was not considered a class skill.
The number of skill ranks you gain when taking a level in one of the base classes is shown on Table: Skill Ranks. Humans gain 1 additional skill rank per class level. Characters who take a level in a favored class have the option of gaining 1 additional skill rank or an additional hit point . If you select a level in a new class, all of its class skills are automatically added to your list of class skills, and you gain a +3 bonus on these skills if you have ranks in them.
A skill point is now a skill point no matter what class granted it. A class skill is a class skill no matter what class gets it as a class skill. If the list of class skill is a class feature this would mean that taking a brawler archetype can prevent you from taking a ranger archetype. Since the Strangler archetype modifies your list of class skills, this would mean you could not take the trapper archetype for ranger since it also modifies your list of class skills. This is of course not the case, but it would be if your list of class skills is a class feature.
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list of class skills is not a class feature. A class feature by definition is only affected by the class that it is a feature of.
You did but you didn't show you were right with a written rule and there is simply no written rule that you can show that I'll agree proves that the list of Class Skills are not a Class Feature.
So at best we have two different versions of RAW.
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It looks like several people have posted multiple posts in this thread showing reasons why class skills are not class features. Yeah, right, nobody has found the passage in the book that says "Hey everybody, class skills are NOT class features!" because no such passage exists, but lots of valid rules and precedents have been shown to support that they are two different things.
On the other hand, we have the counter-argument which is so far best supported by "as far as I'm concerned" and "because dictionary", neither of which have any foundation in rules.
So I'm not so sure we have two different versions of RAW. Instead, we have two different assumptions, one of which is predicated upon RAW, the other of which is little more than wishful thinking - but neither of which is RAW.
Nonetheless, Occam suggests that the more rules-based assumption is probably the better of the two - it's probably the lesser of two weevils...
The rule that says “If you select a level in a new class all of its class skills are automatically added to your list of class skills, and you gain a +3 bonus on these skills if you have ranks in them. So if I am a first level fighter and I put a point into knowledge religion obviously that is not a class skill. My next level I decide to pick up a level of cleric, then knowledge religion is a class skill, and I get the +3 bonus. So at this point is my list of class skills a class feature of fighter, or is it a class feature of cleric? How does going up in cleric alter my fighter class feature? What about traits and feats? If I take a trait that adds a skill as a class skill does that skill become a class feature?
Your list of class skills is a pool that many things can affect. Your character has a single list of class skills that include all class skills from any source.
I FAQed just now because of wording on the prd and in the books.
On the one hand, Class Skills are distinctly separate from Class Features and so a strict rules reading would say you are not alternating Class Features.
However the wording on archetypes in the APG as well as on the PRD says "A beast master has the following class features:" going on to list class skills. This wording does not seem to be present in archetypes from Ultimate Combat.
So it seems these archetypes were written with the intention of class skills falling under class features and that causes confusion which I think a FAQ would clear up.
I put forward that no class archetype actually modifies "Class Skills," which is not a class feature. Rather, some archetypes have a class feature called "Skills" or "Class Skills" which modifies the class skills. IMO, every such entry is a unique class feature. As an analogy, several sorcerer bloodlines add spells to the character's class spell list, without modifying the fact that the sorcerer has the sorcerer class spell list.
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When adding new levels of an existing class or adding levels of a new class (see Multiclassing, below), make sure to take the following steps in order. First, select your new class level. You must be able to qualify for this level before any of the following adjustments are made. Second, apply any ability score increases due to gaining a level. Third, integrate all of the level's class abilities and then roll for additional hit points. Finally, add new skills and feats. For more information on when you gain new feats and ability score increases, see Table: Character Advancement and Level-Dependent Bonuses.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/classes.html
You be the judge.
When adding new levels of an existing class or adding levels of a new class (see Multiclassing, below), make sure to take the following steps in order. First, select your new class level. You must be able to qualify for this level before any of the following adjustments are made. Second, apply any ability score increases due to gaining a level. Third, integrate all of the level's class abilities and then roll for additional hit points. Finally, add new skills and feats. For more information on when you gain new feats and ability score increases, see Table: Character Advancement and Level-Dependent Bonuses.http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/classes.html
You be the judge.
I am not sure what this has to do with the discussion. It seems you are saying that because skills get added after your class abilities that skills are not a class feature. While this is true the question is, is the list of class skills a class feature.
If the list of class skills is a class feature this also means that ex-paladins and ex-clerics lose them when they fall. Does anyone really think that a paladin breaking the code causes him to suddenly not be able to remember things he knew before he fell?
Ex-Paladins
A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and class features (including the service of the paladin's mount, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She may not progress any further in levels as a paladin. She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see the atonement spell description in Spell Lists), as appropriate.
When adding new levels of an existing class or adding levels of a new class (see Multiclassing, below), make sure to take the following steps in order. First, select your new class level. You must be able to qualify for this level before any of the following adjustments are made. Second, apply any ability score increases due to gaining a level. Third, integrate all of the level's class abilities and then roll for additional hit points. Finally, add new skills and feats. For more information on when you gain new feats and ability score increases, see Table: Character Advancement and Level-Dependent Bonuses.http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/classes.html
You be the judge.
I am not sure what this has to do with the discussion. It seems you are saying that because skills get added after your class abilities that skills are not a class feature. While this is true the question is, is the list of class skills a class feature.
If the list of class skills is a class feature this also means that ex-paladins and ex-clerics lose them when they fall. Does anyone really think that a paladin breaking the code causes him to suddenly not be able to remember things he knew before he fell?
Ex-Paladins
A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and class features (including the service of the paladin's mount, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She may not progress any further in levels as a paladin. She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see the atonement spell description in Spell Lists), as appropriate.
I'm saying that, per the PRD (Core Rulebook), class skills are not a class feature. They are part of the class package, the same as hit die size, base attack bonus, and saving throw progressions, but are not a class feature. What archetypes that specify they add a skill to your class skills list do is grant you an additional class feature that does not modify or replace anything, rather gives you an ability for free, in this case adding a skill to your class skills list.
they're simply listed separately in multiple sections. As of now they ARE NOT class features. I think they're separate so that they don't stack from multiple classes.