What has anyone accomplished?
It's four episodes in.
Cold/Heatwave: Stole a bigass emerald, Cold attempted to better his own life and that of his family retroactively.
Palmer: Worked through some of his depression/confidence issues. To be fair, also screwed up the timeline, but that moved the plot for a full episode.
Sara: Nothing yet, but building toward something involving her bloodlust.
Stein: Strengthened his bond with Jackson, mended bridges with Palmer.
Carter: Got killed.
Kendra: Almost got killed. Edit: Oh, remembered how to speak Super Priestess Egyptian, to be fair.
Jackson: Fixed the ship....off screen.
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Um... people seem to be complaining that all of the characters are lost, directionless, and/or damaged.
You do realize that's the point, right? Rip didn't grab the people who had their act together and were making a big impact on events. He collected those with potential, but serious emotional, behavioural, and circumstantial problems that were preventing them from amounting to anything.
They are screwing up and not accumulating major accomplishments right out of the gate? All true... and precisely as it should be within the framework of the story as designed.
Personally, I'm enjoying it. Indeed, if the characters instantly transitioned from a collection of cast offs and hopeless loners into a well integrated team of flawless heros it'd be ridiculous.
The show is called 'Legends of Tomorrow', not 'Legends of Right Now'. They are going to need some time to evolve.
Hence why I mentioned character development as an accomplishment.
Kendra, Jackson, and Heat Wave haven't had any.
Why is Ray in this show? He literally just messes things up. This episode was especially bad in that regard. If not for Captain Cold carrying the team, they would be hosed.
I think Captain Cold is an evil kender. A suave evil kender.
I know it's beating a dead horse, but they should watch Firefly over and over and over again to learn how to run a show about 9 people on a spaceship.
they should watch Firefly over and over and over again to learn how to run a show about 9 people on a spaceship.
Sara kisses Kendra; Mick responds "I'll be in my bunk"...that sort of thing?
Kind of.
They're actually doing a pretty good job of giving each character their own voice. Even the science talk info dumps sound different depending on if it's Stein or Atom (Palmer?) or Hunter.
But balancing all the characters and character interactions and relationships is key.
After watching this week, i'm curious about something. What exactly IS Firestorm's powers? He's been around a bit on Flash and Arrow... but i'm getting my comic lore and tv lore mixed up I think.
So far all I can remember is 'fly' and 'shoot fire'.
Has he done any of the world changing matter rearrraning godhood that he has in the comics? This whole plot to create another firestorm seems... kind lame if you can accomplish the same thing by giving Heatwave a jetpack...
As for carter coming back... I really don't think he will. The plot made a strong point that Carter was useless. Kendra is the only one that matters to kill Savage. Carter's just along for the ride >.<
Rip only recruited him because of the Savage connection, without any point to it, why screw up the timeline AGAIN for just him?
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So far all I can remember is 'fly' and 'shoot fire'.
Has he done any of the world changing matter rearrraning godhood that he has in the comics? This whole plot to create another firestorm seems... kind lame if you can accomplish the same thing by giving Heatwave a jetpack...
Matter transmutation would be his other signature power, and it's been hinted at in Flash (IIRC, the gizmo Stein was holding when he got blowed up by the Star Labs explosion was something to do with molecular transmutation, and, also, IIRC, Ronnie mentioned something about transmuting a gift for Caitlin, perhaps creating a flower? perhaps only semi-, or temporarily, successfully? I could be making this all up...), but nothing's been mentioned of it in Legends yet.
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After watching this week, i'm curious about something. What exactly IS Firestorm's powers? He's been around a bit on Flash and Arrow... but i'm getting my comic lore and tv lore mixed up I think.
So far all I can remember is 'fly' and 'shoot fire'.
Has he done any of the world changing matter rearrraning godhood that he has in the comics? This whole plot to create another firestorm seems... kind lame if you can accomplish the same thing by giving Heatwave a jetpack...
He can also absorb and release nuclear energy. Firestorm is a human nuke, one that can't be detected by traditional means and that can go off without warning...then brush himself off, fly somewhere else, and do it again.
Caught up to episode 4, and Jackson continues to annoy me. Kendra is at least bettering herself, showing more of the fire and independent spirit she showed on The Flash (free from the shackles loving embrace of her abusive boyfriend "soul mate". Coincidence? I think not.)
Jackson has apparently decided to try and remedy his lack of agency by injecting a dose of pure stupidity and bullheadedness into his daily routine.
Stein: "Play it safe, who knows what tricks this guy has up his sleeve!"
Jax: "Screw you old man. LEEEEROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOY JEEEENKIIINS!"
*Gets blowed up*
Jax: "This is all your fault! Damn you and your sensible advice!"
As for carter coming back... I really don't think he will. The plot made a strong point that Carter was useless. Kendra is the only one that matters to kill Savage. Carter's just along for the ride >.<
If we do see Carter again, he'll almost have been picked up from an incarnation where he's already lost Kendra, so that his removal doesn't disrupt their shared history. Perhaps that version of Carter will be less of a know-it-all dick.
Also, I'm not sure it's true that only Kendra can kill Savage. Only she can kill him with that particular dagger because it had been hers in the original incarnation. Savage is vulnerable to artifacts -- plural -- from that time, and they may at some point acquire one that had belonged to Prince Khufu.
I find it kind of interesting that people Hate Carter because he's a know it all jerk face... but Hate Jackson because he doesn't listen to advice from the older Stein...
:D
There's a lot of mixed messages flying around here.
I find it kind of interesting that people Hate Carter because he's a know it all jerk face... but Hate Jackson because he doesn't listen to advice from the older Stein...
:D
There's a lot of mixed messages flying around here.
The difference being that Stein has shown over the course of quite a few episodes that he actually knows what he's talking about and at least entertains other people's ideas before shooting them down. He also tends to do so with some sort of logical reasoning when he does.
Carter brushes off valid questions with condescension and no more reason given than "That's dumb, you're dumb, this is why I make the plans", and has a 2000 year track record of being an enormous f%~% up which any rational person would take to heart and be humbled by.
We also directly see that Stein respects and values his wife and her input.
Carter is only with Kendra "Because destiny". He could not give less of a damn about her opinions.
That's the difference between them.
When Stein gives advice, it's from years of experience learning from his mistakes, and is often simple stuff like " Don't take a grenade to the face" or "Setting fire to flammable explosives in a public place is bad" which Jackson always summarily ignores. Which makes Jackson a dumbass.
Carter gives advice from millenia of experience making the same damn mistakes and then advises everyone to make those mistakes too, never think outside his box, and follow his lead blindly. Then gets huffy when people don't listen to the crazy man whose greatest accomplishment is being killed 216 times previously. Sorry, 217 now.
Which makes CARTER a dumbass.
Carter was also only around for what, 3 episodes total? And each time sharing the screen with a dozen other heroes. He hadn't the time to regret his actions like Stein has.
Not that I personally really feel he has any reason to regret them.
Kendra's opinions... REALLY are worthless in the episodes we've seen her in. When someone with 4000 years of memories and knows all about their hawkgod past and present honestly considers a rookie's opinion who knows nOTHING about what she's talking about, I find it VASTLY unrealistic.
It reminds me of all those stupid vampire shows where the 17 year old girl is smack talking the ancient creatures with centuries of experience and they bow down because... reasons...
Carter remembered all the OTHER times she learned to fly... all the times she learned to fight... he knew what worked, and what didn't... She was honestly NOT an equal member of the team yet. AND he was right! his methods of tossing her off the building without a net worked... His getting her angry enough to fight... Worked.
It wasn't NICE... but it was what worked as it's worked through history.
I really have zero doubt that once she unlocked her memories and knew what the heck she was doing they'd have been a true team... but now we'll not know.
When Kendra showed up, she was an interesting strong-ish character... but she was an unpowered barista. It in no way gives her any credibility in a 'fight superpowered villains' discussion.
Carter was also only around for what, 3 episodes total? And each time sharing the screen with a dozen other heroes. He hadn't the time to regret his actions like Stein has.
Not that I personally really feel he has any reason to regret them.
Kendra's opinions... REALLY are worthless in the episodes we've seen her in. When someone with 4000 years of memories and knows all about their hawkgod past and present honestly considers a rookie's opinion who knows nOTHING about what she's talking about, I find it VASTLY unrealistic.
In her first "training session" she asked him a very simple question. And one that raises a good point.
"Have we ever tried killing ourselves? That might break the cycle."
He very clearly indicated that he had never thought of that...and also that it was stupid JUST because he'd never thought of it.
Carter remembered all the OTHER times she learned to fly... all the times she learned to fight... he knew what worked, and what didn't... She was honestly NOT an equal member of the team yet. AND he was right! his methods of tossing her off the building without a net worked... His getting her angry enough to fight... Worked.
It wasn't NICE... but it was what worked as it's worked through history.
Two Hundred and Seventeen to Zero.
His method clearly HASN'T worked through history. Which is why he's a dumbass.
"218th time's the charm!"
On top of that, he didn't seem to have any intention of ever making her an "equal member of the team". You don't condescend to someone you plan to be your equal in the future.
He was dead weight in the ensemble crew (not the best fighter, not the only flier, no special skills) and is/was dead weight in just he and Kendra's pairing too, once she gets her memories (she is an equal fighter or BETTER, has the same power set, and is much more knowledgeable than he). He really had no right to be such an uppity a+$$~#+ just because he happened to have a head start this time.
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Two Hundred and Seventeen to Zero.
Well... 217 to 1, actually. Though he did need the main protagonists of two different superhero series to get that "1". :P
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The whole thing about Carter and Shayera's hundreds of deaths seems odd to me. Vandal Savage can't fly. For much of history, he was as unable to get from one continent to the other as Oliver Queen is able to visit the moon, while Carter and Shayera had the entire earth as their playground. How Savage managed to even find them, all those hundreds of times remains a mystery, considering they could have been reborn and lived anywhere (note that this last time, she was reborn in North America, and it might not have been the first time, in which case, pre-European contact with North America, how would Savage even have gotten to them?).
Eh. Silly premise. It might be more interesting if Vandal Savage only killed them a couple dozen times over their millennia, and that they lived many dozens of full lives and died old and wrinkly (and that their 'track record' isn't '218 to 0' after all, since, at the end of the day, Savage is just an unkillable dude who is good with knives, and utterly incapable of knifing-to-death anyone who refuses to land near him and engage him in hand to hand combat, which a person with wings *has no reason to do other than profound stupidity*).
[Somewhere over Estonia]
"Hey look, it's the dude that stabbed us to death last lifetime."
"Huh, he's so tiny down there. What's he doing now?"
"Throwing knives and jumping up and down. Gosh, that's impressive, they almost made it a tenth of the way to us!"
"Should we fly down there and fight him?"
"Are you stoned? Remember what happened last time? Let's just fly to Greece and convince the locals that we're angels. It should take him a few decades to find us, and Corfu is beautiful this time of year."
As already established, Carter isn't that smart. And browbeats Kendra into doing whatever he wants to do.
So it's perfectly in keeping with his character to be that profoundly stupid.
Although that's not quite accurate anyway, since I'm sure Savage has learned how to sue a bow, and can somehow fire laser beams from ancient artifacts.
I think it would have been better if Savage was more like his other incarnations though. Super intelligent and older than any known human. He's a whole order of magnitude younger in Legends of Tomorrow than the comics and other media, and seems a great deal less mechanically inclined. It might have been better had they stuck with that, since at the very least being a sort of "Bronze Age Iron Man" would explain why he has such an upper hand at all times.
Carter was also only around for what, 3 episodes total? And each time sharing the screen with a dozen other heroes. He hadn't the time to regret his actions like Stein has.
Not that I personally really feel he has any reason to regret them.
Kendra's opinions... REALLY are worthless in the episodes we've seen her in. When someone with 4000 years of memories and knows all about their hawkgod past and present honestly considers a rookie's opinion who knows nOTHING about what she's talking about, I find it VASTLY unrealistic.
In her first "training session" she asked him a very simple question. And one that raises a good point.
"Have we ever tried killing ourselves? That might break the cycle."
He very clearly indicated that he had never thought of that...and also that it was stupid JUST because he'd never thought of it.
Honestly, what cycle did she want to break? Coming back to life? Yes... it sucks that every time they meet and start a happily ever after, This psycho shows up and kills them, but at least they get to start over and hope something different happens.
'Suicide' is never an answer to anything. We just saw in Legends of Tomorrow, that some of these lives have children. Her great and wonderous plan to avoid getting killed... is to kill herself. With the possible added bonus of taking her enemy with her... but really, for someone who scours the globe looking for his one true love, for that to be the first thing suggested??
Yeah, he'd think that's a stupid idea. The Hawk's story has always been about him and her living multiple lives, and at the end of each being happy for each one. Throwing in the towel like that is insulting.
Two Hundred and Seventeen to Zero.His method clearly HASN'T worked through history. Which is why he's a dumbass.
"218th time's the charm!"
On top of that, he didn't seem to have any intention of ever making her an "equal member of the team". You don't condescend to someone you plan to be your equal in the future.
He was dead weight in the ensemble crew (not the best fighter, not the only flier, no special skills) and is/was dead weight in just he and Kendra's pairing too, once she gets her memories (she is an equal fighter or BETTER, has the same power set, and is much more knowledgeable than he). He really had no right to be such an uppity a$+*##+ just because he happened to have a head start this...
I disagree.
Most of the married couples I know mock and tease each other mercilessly. Most of my friends do it as well. We tease because we love :)
What would be seen as condescending today, they both would have laughed at in 3 years. Remember to her this was all new... but to him, it was the 216th time they've had this conversation. Sometimes he teaches her, sometimes she teaches him...
I see their relationship almost as if one of them has Alzheimers. It's a very frustrating situation on the best of days reminding someone you love who you are and what they did the day before and that yes, they love you too...
As an extra special bonus... lets remember he had NO time this go around. I'm sure in past lives, they took things a bit slower and eased into an actual relationship. This time Savage had found her first and she knew NOTHING...
He needed her to be fight-ready and they needed it NOW...
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Honestly, what cycle did she want to break? Coming back to life? Yes... it sucks that every time they meet and start a happily ever after, This psycho shows up and kills them, but at least they get to start over and hope something different happens.
'Suicide' is never an answer to anything.
To break the psycho's immortality.
Their immortality comes from their love for each other or some nonsense like that. His immortality comes from killing them over and over again.
Ergo, prevent him from killing them... and he would die. Leaving them free to re-incarnate again and live happily ever after without him.
So, in this (obviously fictional) case... suicide actually would appear to be a perfect answer to the problem.
^Yep.
It's kind of a win-win.
If it works perfectly, they retain immortality and also kill off the guy who ruins their happiness and kills them and others. And eventually conquers Earth.
If it works partially, at least they're ALL dead forever.
If it doesn't work at all...they lose nothing.
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"...not my first Prison Break."
How long have the writers been waiting to use that line?
"...not my first Prison Break."
How long have the writers been waiting to use that line?
As long as I've been waiting to hear it at least. :) Especially when they introduced Mick.
Also what is the point of Ray? He seems to just screw up literally everything.
^Yep.
It's kind of a win-win.
If it works perfectly, they retain immortality and also kill off the guy who ruins their happiness and kills them and others. And eventually conquers Earth.
If it works partially, at least they're ALL dead forever.
If it doesn't work at all...they lose nothing.
That assumes that he only stays immortal if he kill them every generation. It might now work that way
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This new episode I think gives me a good handle on Mick
He's basically a guy born in the wrong time. a Viking raiding ship, or a Barbarian Horde or (as seen here) a Mad Max style dystopia he would a happy and content warlord.
Instead he was born to an age of civilization and cell phones and stock portfolios and he hates it. He wants to live in a simple "might makes right" world and instead he is the outcast unable to fit into the civilizaed world.
He's kind of like Marv in Sin City.
He's also completely pointless... He's literally just a guy with a flamethrower. And not a particularly skilled or clever guy, either... It's like Hawkeye, but without any combat abilities. Every fight, he literally stands still and shoots his flamethrowers up.
It annoys me to see every villain holding the idiot ball every time he participates in combat, because otherwise he'd be shot dead every time. It's like those CapCold/Heatwave vs The Flash battles all over again... Only worse, because it happens every freaking episode!
You do realize that hating stuff that other people like doesn't make you cool, right? No matter how much stuff you make up to explain it.
You do realize I'm not trying to be cool, right? No matter how much you think I care about the opinion of strangers on the internet.
I'm making a comment about a character in the TV series after which the thread is named. The whole point of the thread is for us to share our opinion on the show.
If you disagree with and/or don't like my opinion... Well... Tough luck. Not all I have to say about the series (and its characters) is positive, but I have just as much right to post here as you do. My comment isn't even a derail.
Why are you so defensive about this show Krensky?
You seem to be taking all the criticism very personally. Step back a bit, man.
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IMO, the episode three weeks ago and last weeks were a couple steps forward. They had focused 2-3 character mini story arcs that worked to advance the meta plot while building up the characters involved.
This week's episode was a step back. It felt like 2/3 filler content disguised as 'character development'. The scenes with Jackson being the hormonal teenager was especially offensive. It seems like every episode the writers work to make him look as useless and whiny as possible.
At least Adam wasn't purely a detriment to the crew this week.
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You seem to be making three assumptions.
1.) Nobody is "actually watching the show" but you.
2.) Nobody but you actually knows basic writing tropes.
3.) That BASIC WRITING TROPES are somehow more than just that: Basic, and tropes. I.e. you're conflating the existence of the trope with quality.
Yes, everybody gets he's Snart's foil.
That doesn't mean he's a GOOD CHARACTER.
He's intended to be a foil, sure. But does he succeed? And what else is he in addition? Does he exist SOLELY as a contrast to Snart? If so, why is he necessary? Does he shed light on some aspect of Snart's character previously unknown? No, not so far.
Is he compelling BECAUSE of the contrast? No, not particularly. Nick is the red oni to Snart's blue (in a literal and figurative sense), the hot temper to the cold logic. This is all readily apparent.
But it's not interesting.
The purpose of a foil is to do one of a few things. His seems to be to show what a character could be like had he gone another road. Certainly, he is Snart if Snart did not have his code of morals...but that's just a thug. Which generally don't make interesting characters. He has no real aspirations, no driving motivation, and no real reason to be part of the crew.
Sorry if you're tired of hearing how the characters are flawed (CONCEPTUALLY, writing-wise, not the purposeful flaws they have)...but that's the main problem with this show. As long as it continues to be a problem, my dissatisfaction with it isn't going to magically disappear.
This is an ensemble piece where a good chunk of the ensemble NEEDS to evolve before they'll be interesting or necessary to the group.
That said...I actually liked him in this episode, because it added something MORE. Only a little, but a deeper look into how his psyche works. He's very nearly an animal in thought process. Food-Fight-F$+&-Sleep-Repeat is his ideal existence, and if they do something with that...it could be pretty neat.
This is an ensemble piece where a good chunk of the ensemble NEEDS to evolve before they'll be interesting or necessary to the group.That said...I actually liked him in this episode, because it added something MORE. Only a little, but a deeper look into how his psyche works. He's very nearly an animal in thought process. Food-Fight-F@+&-Sleep-Repeat is his ideal existence, and if they do something with that...it could be pretty neat.
That's a very good point. I almost liked Mick in this one.
If Cold & Hunter were thinking, they'd offer to return Mick to that (or a similar) time-period after they defeat Savage.
Meanwhile...let's discuss the part of this story that bugged me when I started thinking about it later.
What's wrong with the US in the Arrowverse? Why haven't the feds moved in? Why let a major city fall to anarchy like that?
If there's such anarchy where is the power/food/water/booze/et all coming from?
I thought Snart talked a little too slowly this week. He sounded like Peggy Noonan.
So, they have flying dude with blue fire, flying dude with orange fire, non-flying dude with orange fire, non-flying dude with blue ice, flying dudette, non-flying dudette, and some guy who dresses like Mal Reynolds, talks like Doctor Who, but in an even more confusing manner.
What year (or exact point in time) is the point in time that separates the past and the future? Like, at what point can the past not be changed, or the future is super malleable and doesn't really matter?
I can't speak for Krensky, but when you hear the same criticism after every episode, spoken (or written in this case) in a manner that makes it sound like it is a complete deal breaker that totally ruins everything else about the show, I am left asking one question: Why do you even bother to watch?
Because I don't have to like 100% of something to enjoy it.
Heatwave is a horrible character that adds little to nothing to the show... But the show has other characters, whom I actually like. That is why I still watch the show.
Especially when said complaints make it sound like you either aren't watching the show or didn't pay attention in lit class.
Really? Really? Are you really going with this idiotic, condescending argument? How cool would it be if I said that your liking for the character is only because you don't watch the show or don't pay attention?
Hint: Nick is Leonard's foil.
An unnecessary, uninteresting foil.
Hint: You're not the only one who knows that basic story-telling tropes exist and how they work. Not all tropes are enjoyable, and they are not always used correctly. Their addition is not always a good thing.
My guess is Heatwave is being set up to betray the group near the climax and side with Savage. Maybe have a change of heart at the very end and heroicly sacrifice himself for Cold but everything so far is setting him up as being antagonistic to the group and being "the guy who doesn't fit" which makes him easily susceptable to being recruited by Savage at some point.
I more think they're going in the direction of straining Mick and Leonard's bromance/partnership to open things up with the rest of the group.
As a unit and pair, the two of them were completely closed off from everyone else on the Waverider. The events in the Russian prison though got me thinking Mick's respect for Snart might fade only to be replaced by a begrudging respect for Ray.
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I more think they're going in the direction of straining Mick and Leonard's bromance/partnership to open things up with the rest of the group.
As a unit and pair, the two of them were completely closed off from everyone else on the Waverider. The events in the Russian prison though got me thinking Mick's respect for Snart might fade only to be replaced by a begrudging respect for Ray.
+1
I think that scene was less about setting up Mick for a betrayal and more about showing him as more than Snart's #1 goon. He's got his own goals and motivations. They're not terribly complex necessarily but they're his.
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What bothers me about the show is the equipment they are using are almost useless. I remember Snart's cold gun actually freezing people. At least this last episode Mick's gun almost set someone on fire. Whenever there's been a "grand melee" of a fight, there's lots of energy blasts, some explosions, and no one being effected by any of it (aside from some bad guys jumping away). Very disappointing after seeing the effects the network has come up with on Arrow and Flash.
Buffy used to dust CGI vampires every week, and that was in the 90s.
I think it's just "lazy" combat choreography. They have limited time to plan and practice those fights, and there are often 20 or 30 different people using a variety of fighting techniques (guns, winged mace-fu, flamethrowers, icebeams, whatever those metal batons the white ninja uses), so they probably have to keep it simplified due to time constraints.
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What bothers me about the show is the equipment they are using are almost useless. I remember Snart's cold gun actually freezing people. At least this last episode Mick's gun almost set someone on fire. Whenever there's been a "grand melee" of a fight, there's lots of energy blasts, some explosions, and no one being effected by any of it (aside from some bad guys jumping away). Very disappointing after seeing the effects the network has come up with on Arrow and Flash.
I think my biggest issue with the show (even though I DO enjoy it...) Is pretty much the core concept. I like superheroes... I like teams... I LOVE time travel... but honestly the team they picked is garbage.
Point one... Changing the past is dangerous.
Team includes: White Canary... psychotic Assassin. Heat Wave... Sociopathic arsonist. Captain Cold... Occassional killer on 'good behavior' from deal with Flash... Uncontrollable Hawk Goddess who is always a step away from murder...
ANY of those four would be the LAST people I would want on a time travel team. They are the types to bust into a random bar fight and not care who lives or dies... and the next thing you know World War IV happens in 2004... It's just TERRIBLE planning.
Point two... Changing the past is dangerous.
Introducing technology to the past.. problematic. BEST case scenario, the gear gets damaged and your teammate is useless. Worst Case, Enemies get themselves some heat/cold weapons and attach them to their own Atom Suits...
Tech Heroes are TERRIBLE choices for a time travel team...
Of the entire team, I think only Firestorm was a well thought out choice... and somehow they found a way to make HIM the replicatable hero... That sucks, but I wouldn't fault the idea of bringing him for that.
So really, if Rip wanted a team... he could have done a LOT better if his ACTUAL goal was what he says. As it is, they're just set to mess up the multiverse something fierce.
Also... Ray. Poor... poor Ray. I feel bad for him and it irks me the way the writers are dealing with him. He's just such... a... GOOD guy. He likes to help people... he likes to do the right thing... He'd rather be a hero for the sake of being a hero then worry about the profit...
And they make him such a LOSER. He is in the PRIME spot to be the moral center of the group. Keepign everyone on task between greed, chaos, and intellectual curioisity... but EVERYTIME they show him, he falls flat on his face... and the 'shades of grey' characters are shown as the 'cool' ones....
Sigh.....