As far as them getting too near to Batman, I kinda feel we passed that milemarker a while back =P
I am curious though as to whether they're sticking with Bats/Supes/WW existing in the Flarrowverse or not. The Flash/Supergirl crossover had Barry shaking his head at all the BIG DC Comic property names Kara fired off, but Rip referenced in this show that he'd seen Men of Steel and Dark Knights fall.
If there's never going to be a Batman in the Flarrowverse, Ollie scooping up all of Bruce's villains and such wouldn't really bother me.
I am curious though as to whether they're sticking with Bats/Supes/WW existing in the Flarrowverse or not. The Flash/Supergirl crossover had Barry shaking his head at all the BIG DC Comic property names Kara fired off, but Rip referenced in this show that he'd seen Men of Steel and Dark Knights fall.
Legends does not necessarily exist in the same timeline as Flash does. Martin Stein after all is still present in Starr Labs, even though there's a Martin Stein and both of his Firestorm partners on Hunter's crew.
More likely they're operating on something ackin to the "New 52" lineup of parallel worlds.
Legends does not necessarily exist in the same timeline as Flash does. Martin Stein after all is still present in Starr Labs, even though there's a Martin Stein and both of his Firestorm partners on Hunter's crew.
I'm fairly certain that Stein has not appeared in an episode of The Flash since joining Hunter's crew.
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but Rip referenced in this show that he'd seen Men of Steel and Dark Knights fall.
And I'm still confused as to why people keep using this as a definitive "Batman and Superman totally exist" rather than a figure of speech that doubles as an oblique reference to those two properties they don't have the rights to produce shows for.
but Rip referenced in this show that he'd seen Men of Steel and Dark Knights fall.And I'm still confused as to why people keep using this as a definitive "Batman and Superman totally exist" rather than a figure of speech that doubles as an oblique reference to those two properties they don't have the rights to produce shows for.
Like Fox Mulder, they* WANT TO BELIEVE.
*
Even if they have (which I don't remember any specific instances of, besides places like Bludhaven existing), how does that mean "this character is real"? He's never shown up. It could very well be comic books.
And Supergirl is both in an entirely different universe...and airs on a completely different network. References from that are doubly irrelevant.
Which? And quotes?
...But the plot of that episode literally had the premise that the Supergirl universe was another Earth. He ended up there in an attempt to get back to Earth-2. STAR Labs, the Arrow, Flash...none of those people existed in that Earth.
I'm guessing you didn't watch it?
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...What?
We're talking about Batman existing in the 'Arrowverse'. Which is not the same dimension, universe, or whatever word you want to use instead (because it reeeeeaaaallly doesn't matter, even though universe is the term used in the Flash).
Any references made to him in the alternate universe don't reflect anything on the one we're talking about.
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Ah. I see. You're the sort of person who when proven wrong pivots to a tangental topic and says that's what you were arguing about.
Fine.
Off the top of my head.
Ollie can't call Felicity Oracle because the name is taken.
Wayne Technologies merges with Queen Consolidated in 2024.
Harlequin was in Argus' suicide squad stable.
And she'll never appear again because she's appearing in a movie. Just as they killed Deadshot and Waller off.
It's the future. Maybe it won't. Plus Queen Consolidated no longer exists.
Talia was a little girl in 1958.
Ah. I see. You're the sort of person who when proven wrong pivots to a tangental topic and says that's what you were arguing about.
Again...what?
You said:
Because the Bat family has been referenced repeatedly in Arrow and Supergirl references Superman.
I then said:
Even if they have (which I don't remember any specific instances of, besides places like Bludhaven existing), how does that mean "this character is real"? He's never shown up. It could very well be comic books.
And Supergirl is both in an entirely different universe...and airs on a completely different network. References from that are doubly irrelevant.
You completely ignored the first part and focused on the second.
I then corrected you: Supergirl and the Arrowverse occupy entirely different universes, and then you went ona semantic tangent over the difference between dimension and universe that wasn't at all relevant to the discussion.
And now you're going back to the main topic and claiming that wasn't the initial topic of discussion!
This is literally clearly visible to anyone reading the thread, including you and me! I'm not sure exactly what you hope to accomplish by trying to claim this.
Fine.
Off the top of my head.
Ollie can't call Felicity Oracle because the name is taken.
Wayne Technologies merges with Queen Consolidated in 2024.
Harlequin was in Argus' suicide squad stable.
Thank you, this is what I asked for in the first place. Though again, Batman himself has never been mentioned, and neither has Superman...yet everyone seems to think they must exist somewhere in the background, despite all character reactions and plot elements pointing to the contrary.
Cute nods to the continuity (none of which actually requires Batman to exist, mind you, this could be an alternate universe where Thomas and Martha Wayne were never killed, similar to how Earth-2 has Ollie's dad as Green Arrow) do not definitive proof make.
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mostly those nods exist as little easter eggs to fans. For all intents and purposes, they can't do anything with Batman (and presuming the other major "about to get a movie" characters, with the exception of The Flash, who was grandfathered in.
At that point it doesn't really matter if Batman exists in the Arrowverse or not, because we will never see him anyway.
Ah. I see. You're the sort of person who when proven wrong pivots to a tangental topic and says that's what you were arguing about.
Fine.
Off the top of my head.
Ollie can't call Felicity Oracle because the name is taken.
Wayne Technologies merges with Queen Consolidated in 2024.
Harlequin was in Argus' suicide squad stable.And she'll never appear again because she's appearing in a movie. Just as they killed Deadshot and Waller off.
It's the future. Maybe it won't. Plus Queen Consolidated no longer exists.
Talia was a little girl in 1958.
None of which has any bearing at all on whether Batman is in the same universe. Whether they show up in the show... has no bearing on whether they exist. It's all part of the show's writers intentionally making the world bigger then what we see.
Batman has no need to go to Star City. In the comics, Batman rarely bothers with Star City... he has enough on his plate with Gotham. A vigilante in Gotham isn't newsworthy enough to reach Star City on the other coast when they have plenty of their own problems.
Waynetech has been mentioned. Harley has been seen. Oracle has been mentioned.. Dark Knights have been mentioned. That's more then enough evidence for me to believe that there is a gotham around there.
Just because characters like Waller, Deadshot, and Harley aren't seen anymore... doesn't meant they were never there. I agree that we'll never see a cape or cowl in Arrow.... but that doesn't mean that they aren't 'somewhere'... There was a lot LESS evidence/logic for Spectre and Constantine... and they've both been connected to the universe now (also from another network..)
As for Talia?? What does that mean? Ra's was looking pretty old there in 1958 too, but looked the same in 2015. That's the magic of the Lazarus pit. It's what it does. Having a young Talia show up is doesn't come close to straining credibility.
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In the crossover episode The Flash did not recognize the symbol Supergirl was wearing. Did not recognize the name 'Supergirl' or associate it with anything. Was surprised by her flying and super strength. Did not realize that she was an alien until told. Et cetera.
All of that adds up to it being clear that he had never heard of Superman either. Ergo... pretty solid evidence of no Superman in the Flashverse... which is the same as the Arrowverse.
Now the LoTverse is complicated because they started out from the Arrow-Flashverse, but are messing around with time. Maybe Superman (and/or Batman) existed in a previous (or/and future) timestream.
None of which has any bearing at all on whether Batman is in the same universe. Whether they show up in the show... has no bearing on whether they exist. It's all part of the show's writers intentionally making the world bigger then what we see.
Batman has no need to go to Star City. In the comics, Batman rarely bothers with Star City... he has enough on his plate with Gotham. A vigilante in Gotham isn't newsworthy enough to reach Star City on the other coast when they have plenty of their own problems.
Except with the threats Batman deals with, they ARE newsworthy enough to reach the other coast. I live about as far as you can get from California, but I hear news about someone shooting up a school there.
Pretty sure it would have made the news if a crazy clown tried to flood the city's streets with deadly laughing gas and a masked man stopped him.
Plus the absolute surprise and shock at a vigilante existing in the first place with Arrow.
It wouldn't surprise me if Batman existed in the Supergirl universe. I could see CBS having enough clout that they might be able to make references to him (which they already have at least once), in the same way they do with Superman.
Plus it would be really cool if Nightwing could show up.
Pretty sure it would have made the news if a crazy clown tried to flood the city's streets with deadly laughing gas and a masked man stopped him.
Maybe the first dozen times it happened. But some psychopath almost destroys Gotham on a daily basis...at some point it stops being news, and just becomes part of daily life.
Seriously, why the hell would anyone live in Gotham. The chances of being murdered are probably insanely high...and that's ignore the more "mundane" crime of the sort that, say, the Penguin is involved in.
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Pretty sure it would have made the news if a crazy clown tried to flood the city's streets with deadly laughing gas and a masked man stopped him.Maybe the first dozen times it happened. But some psychopath almost destroys Gotham on a daily basis...at some point it stops being news, and just becomes part of daily life.
Seriously, why the hell would anyone live in Gotham. The chances of being murdered are probably insanely high...and that's ignore the more "mundane" crime of the sort that, say, the Penguin is involved in.
They can't afford to move?
Parts of Chicago and Detroit are as bad as Gotham City. :-(
Except with the threats Batman deals with, they ARE newsworthy enough to reach the other coast. I live about as far as you can get from California, but I hear news about someone shooting up a school there.
Pretty sure it would have made the news if a crazy clown tried to flood the city's streets with deadly laughing gas and a masked man stopped him.
Plus the absolute surprise and shock at a vigilante existing in the first place with Arrow.
Meh, 'Clown tries to blow up dam' is pretty easy to miss when 'Giant starfish attacks metropolis.' or 'Evil Robots knock down buildings'
If every newsworthy thing that happens in the world hits every newspaper everywhere then it would get pretty overwhelming. 'Dude with scars' or 'guy who likes riddles' may be news in gotham, but it wouldn't rate in California or Seattle.
Besides, I have no doubts really that Batman is still in his 'urban legend' stage or Superman is in his 'red/blue blur' stage. Helping people without getting the spotlight on them.
I really think they missed a big chance with him not recognizing 'aliens exist' or 'Superman shield'. Not knowing Supergirl means nothing. Earth-1 supergirl could still be hiding her powers and never needed to rescue that plane yet. But not recognizing ANY of it is a bit rough.
Except with the threats Batman deals with, they ARE newsworthy enough to reach the other coast. I live about as far as you can get from California, but I hear news about someone shooting up a school there.
Pretty sure it would have made the news if a crazy clown tried to flood the city's streets with deadly laughing gas and a masked man stopped him.
Plus the absolute surprise and shock at a vigilante existing in the first place with Arrow.
Meh, 'Clown tries to blow up dam' is pretty easy to miss when 'Giant starfish attacks metropolis.' or 'Evil Robots knock down buildings'
If every newsworthy thing that happens in the world hits every newspaper everywhere then it would get pretty overwhelming. 'Dude with scars' or 'guy who likes riddles' may be news in gotham, but it wouldn't rate in California or Seattle.
Besides, I have no doubts really that Batman is still in his 'urban legend' stage or Superman is in his 'red/blue blur' stage. Helping people without getting the spotlight on them.
I really think they missed a big chance with him not recognizing 'aliens exist' or 'Superman shield'. Not knowing Supergirl means nothing. Earth-1 supergirl could still be hiding her powers and never needed to rescue that plane yet. But not recognizing ANY of it is a bit rough.
Superman does not exist (yet) in the Arrow/Flash/LoT continuity. It's well established that Barry Allen was essentially the first meta-human.
^Yep. There aren't any giant starfish or evil robots. That's why "Dude with boomerangs terrorizes a bank" is big news.
Superman does not exist (yet) in the Arrow/Flash/LoT continuity. It's well established that Barry Allen was essentially the first meta-human.
Except with the threats Batman deals with, they ARE newsworthy enough to reach the other coast. I live about as far as you can get from California, but I hear news about someone shooting up a school there.
Pretty sure it would have made the news if a crazy clown tried to flood the city's streets with deadly laughing gas and a masked man stopped him.
Plus the absolute surprise and shock at a vigilante existing in the first place with Arrow.
Meh, 'Clown tries to blow up dam' is pretty easy to miss when 'Giant starfish attacks metropolis.' or 'Evil Robots knock down buildings'
If every newsworthy thing that happens in the world hits every newspaper everywhere then it would get pretty overwhelming. 'Dude with scars' or 'guy who likes riddles' may be news in gotham, but it wouldn't rate in California or Seattle.
Besides, I have no doubts really that Batman is still in his 'urban legend' stage or Superman is in his 'red/blue blur' stage. Helping people without getting the spotlight on them.
I really think they missed a big chance with him not recognizing 'aliens exist' or 'Superman shield'. Not knowing Supergirl means nothing. Earth-1 supergirl could still be hiding her powers and never needed to rescue that plane yet. But not recognizing ANY of it is a bit rough.
Until there is...
Hawkman, Hawkgirl and Vandal Savage have already proven otherwise. Slade may count too.
Nothing really exists, until they say it does... and then it could have 'always been there' and just hasn't been mentioned yet. That's how these shows work.
^Yep. There aren't any giant starfish or evil robots. That's why "Dude with boomerangs terrorizes a bank" is big news.
That would be big news for the same reason "Dude robs bank with a toy gun" would be.
I guess I meant to say publicly known metahuman. There is the Hawks, Savage, and the Lazarus Pits....but the Flash is the first super powered being to make himself known to the world at large. Which means the if Clark Kent/Superman does exist, he is probably still living on a farm in Kansas.
OMG! Kaylee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And Palmer is in the crappy little town where he's a folk hero!
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The problem is that their mission is to kill Savage. There isn't a "tiny" measure of success. Success or failure is pretty binary. And if they succeed, the show doesn't really have an excuse to continue. As such, they're doomed to continual failure.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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The problem is that their mission is to kill Savage. There isn't a "tiny" measure of success. Success or failure is pretty binary. And if they succeed, the show doesn't really have an excuse to continue. As such, they're doomed to continual failure.
I don't fully agree with that. They've at least tried to take incremental steps, like going after Savage's finances, which if it had worked could have weakened him in the future so he's easier to beat when they know he's there.
It would be great, now that they know he has a cadre of worshipers, if they targeted THEM, took them out and made it easier to beat Savage. Each time they gave him or his network a setback, Gideon could wrap up the episode and say something like "Savage now isn't slated to take over the world until 2159 instead of 2152."
Of course, they have to start playing smart, and next time they find out where to find Savage, don't immediately go there/then to attack him, but keep that in their back pocket until they've weakened his support network first.
The problem is that their mission is to kill Savage. There isn't a "tiny" measure of success. Success or failure is pretty binary. And if they succeed, the show doesn't really have an excuse to continue. As such, they're doomed to continual failure.I don't fully agree with that. They've at least tried to take incremental steps, like going after Savage's finances, which if it had worked could have weakened him in the future so he's easier to beat when they know he's there.
It would be great, now that they know he has a cadre of worshipers, if they targeted THEM, took them out and made it easier to beat Savage. Each time they gave him or his network a setback, Gideon could wrap up the episode and say something like "Savage now isn't slated to take over the world until 2159 instead of 2152."
Of course, they have to start playing smart, and next time they find out where to find Savage, don't immediately go there/then to attack him, but keep that in their back pocket until they've weakened his support network first.
The problem is that if they start being smart... Well... Not even smart, just not completely stupid, the show would be over in half an episode.
I think I'm dropping this series too... It's not entertaining anymore, just infuriating.
I really enjoyed this Wild West episode and the show's take on Jonah Hex. I liked the big brawl at the end too; thought it was well shot and choreographed.
They kept using the term "haircut" too much.
And they talk about upsetting the timeline too much for a bunch of people with laser guns and flying fire people and robot suits.
Also, wasn't HG Wells British?
Shouldn't he have sounded Welsh, since the Wild West of Britain is Wales???
;-)
EDIT:
Cowboys vs. Dragons sounds amazing!
*prefers Dragons versus Samurai himself*
Are they going to the part of Feudal Japan that borders Wales, land of the be-dragoned flag? ;-)
If they do, my heart will follow after them Smilo.