So, are the planes universal? Is the inner sphere a that planar traveler from Golarion visits the same than an alien visits? What about the outer sphere?
If I looked long enough in the astral plane would I encounter planar traveler from Droffa? Does a human from Earth get judged by Pharasma? Does a Mi-Go?
The Osirion Pantheon gets around somewhat, so I imagine there's some overlap, but then why don't we see mention of alien petitioners or humans from other worlds traveling the planes?
Not to answer a question with a question, but when have petitioners shown up as a plot point period? Very few Pathfinder adventures, whether Modules or Adventure Paths, deal with the planes, and of those that have, petitioners haven't ever been a focus.
Oh, I meant just mentioned in the setting books, not as part of adventure/module plots, books like The Great Beyond or Races of The Stars.
Other than that, thanks for replying and answering my questions. Mind linking where JJ said that Aboleths would get judged by Pharasma? It sounds like that thread would be interesting to read if THAT came up.
Mind link achieved. ;-)
James Sutter's The Redemption Engine did touch upon this -
One of the major things I got from the novel (and from various writing on the lower planes) is that the planes themselves are thinking entities, though operating on a massive, massive scale.
There IS a Will of Heaven, and its completely independent of its occupants.
And that extends to other planes as well.
(For example, unless I've completely misunderstood Princes of Darkness, Mephistopheles is the avatar of Hell itself. When Hell has something to tell Asmodeus or the archdukes, it passes it on through Mephistopheles.)
{. . .}
Even gods will one day be judged by Pharasma should they be slain. {. . .}
So, who judges Pharasma if she is slain?
It seems that the planes are universal in canonical Pathfinder. This need not be the case for your own setting / campaign, however.
{. . .}
Even gods will one day be judged by Pharasma should they be slain. {. . .}So, who judges Pharasma if she is slain?
Presumably, it's the first job of whoever takes over.
Not necessarily, though. Fun bit of trivia: Pharasma isn't the sole judge of souls. There's a Protean Lord, Ssila'meshnik that will every now and then just pop over to the Boneyard in to decide somebody's fate. So however good or bad you've been, there's a non-zero chance of a being of elemental chaos getting the final call on where you end up. He might show up for Pharasma's case. Presumably elemental Law would have an interest in ensuring the case got settled properly. And thus we have the setup for the greatest courtroom drama campaign of all time. (If it doesn't draw heavily from Phoenix Wright, I will be disappointed.)
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Here it is - James Jacobs saying that the last thing Pharasma will judge is herself.
Though Pharasma does often delegate judging souls to the psychopomps, especially souls whose cases are very simple.
I would guess that Ssila'meshnik's appearances aren't truly random; rather, there's a really specific (though perhaps bizarre) category of soul that Ssila'meshnik handles the rulings on.
James Sutter's The Redemption Engine did touch upon this
Ah, I haven't read any of the novels so I didn't know about that.
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Here it is - James Jacobs saying that the last thing Pharasma will judge is herself.
{. . .}
Sounds like a conflict of interest to me . . . .
JJ has said that Pharasma dying would likely be the last thing to happen before the end of the multiverse.
{. . .}
Even gods will one day be judged by Pharasma should they be slain. {. . .}So, who judges Pharasma if she is slain?
Presumably, it's the first job of whoever takes over.
Not necessarily, though. Fun bit of trivia: Pharasma isn't the sole judge of souls. There's a Protean Lord, Ssila'meshnik that will every now and then just pop over to the Boneyard in to decide somebody's fate. So however good or bad you've been, there's a non-zero chance of a being of elemental chaos getting the final call on where you end up. He might show up for Pharasma's case. Presumably elemental Law would have an interest in ensuring the case got settled properly. And thus we have the setup for the greatest courtroom drama campaign of all time. (If it doesn't draw heavily from Phoenix Wright, I will be disappointed.)
When souls are claimed by more than one plane or deity, representatives of those planes of gods argue their case before Pharasma. Ssila'meshnik is just prone to randomly showing up and personally arguing before Pharasma for certain souls (and not necessarily even souls that the Maelstrom lays claim to). Presumably he/she/it has an agreement with Pharasma to be able to just waltz in and out of her innermost courts at whimsy (though doing so is perfectly in line with their whole shtick).
Is there some bizarre rhyme and reason to which souls Ssila'meshnik chooses to argue for on the Maelstrom's behalf (or even someone else's behalf, entirely unasked for)? Who knows. We'd need an update on them in print to know more, since for the moment they don't have defined domains and spheres of influence.
In my own campaign I use Ssila'meshnik the Colorless Lord as the Protean Lord of Fate, Freedom, and Paradox.
The multiverse in the pathfinder campaign setting refers to the entire complex of the planes.
The prime material plane corresponds to our universe, with the positive energy plane located at the metaphysical center; the shadow plane is coterminous and coexistent (as a sort of parallel dimension) with the prime material plane, and the negative energy plane exists at the center of that; the ethereal plane is coexistent with the prime material and shadow planes, as a way of travel between the two; the First World is not quite a full plane, but also not quite a demiplane, and is described as the Gods' first draft at creating a material universe; there are assorted demiplanes such as the Dimension of Dreams and the Plateau of Leng; and the elemental planes metaphysically surround all these: this complex, which is unimaginably greater than our entire universe, which of course is itself unimaginably greater than our entire visible universe, is referred to as the Inner Planes or the Inner Sphere.
Beyond the outermost sphere of the plane of Fire is the Astral Plane, which connects the Inner Sphere with the Outer Sphere, which consists of the 9 aligned planes, each of which is themselves something like an immense universe in itself.
If Pharasma is so universal she should be called Death
Well, that depends on whether she SPEAKS IN A DEEP VOICE.
More to the point, in the pathfinder campaign setting, deities are not anthropomorphic personifications of the concept they control. Sarenrae is a goddess of the Sun, but she is not the Sun personified, as Helios was for the ancient greeks.
If Pharasma is so universal she should be called Death
Shouldn't that also include Taxes?
Creative Director
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Here it is - James Jacobs saying that the last thing Pharasma will judge is herself.
{. . .}Sounds like a conflict of interest to me . . . .
Perhaps to a human.
To a supreme and neutral deity who is NOT human and transcends thought and life and death and fate... not a conflict at all.
If anything, it might be a relief to her to see herself show up at the end of the line.
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Perhaps she's like Neil Gaiman's Death of the Endless, she's the one who closes up the Book of Fate and turns the lights out on the universe when it's all over.Here it is - James Jacobs saying that the last thing Pharasma will judge is herself.
Death being my favorite comic book character, and Pharasma in large part being my invention... you might just be on to something there! ;)
Another inspiration is this short prose poem, Charon, by Lord Dunsany.
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Ah! I found that post by James Sutter that really belongs in this thread...
This actually comes up in The Redemption Engine as well. (Aliens and the planes in one of my novels? Shocking, I know.)
Another way to think about this is that Heaven and the other planes are sort of "instanced," to borrow an MMO term. Heaven isn't just a place--it's also a concept, and thus its physics are malleable and naturally accommodate the observer. In order for humanoid (or alien) brains to comprehend it, it has to sort of squish itself down into a shape we can perceive and understand. So is the mountain so huge you could never reach the top, or is it something you could walk up in a day? The answer is to both questions is yes. Similarly, the lawful good realm we call Heaven accommodates all creatures and societies that need it, but must therefore take shapes as varied as all the cultures of the universe. So Heaven is at once the Heaven of Golarion and ALSO all other Heavens put together.
As Jacobs said, so far, all of our setting material has detailed the "Golarion" interpretation of Heaven, but that's only because alternate versions aren't really as useful for our game. (And also because detailing and mapping alternate versions of a near-infinite realm is a sucker's game.) If you want to include a different version, such as from the real world or another game system--go for it! Our assumption is that all of those exist as user-specific aspects of the same intangible, unclassifiable concept-realm.
Confused yet? If so, don't worry. As has often been said, whether or not you believe in this interpretation of Heaven... it believes in you. :D
One other way to look at this is not to think of the outer planes as "instanced" so much as "adjoining." The Great Beyond is INCREDIBLY vast. And while Heaven might be the size of our universe, it's still a fraction of a single mote of dust on the Outer Sphere itself. All possible heavens for all possible worlds could just be clustered in a local region, in other words, but sill cover a distance so vast that creation hasn't been around long enough for any one creature to have lived long enough to walk from one to the other.
If Pharasma is so universal she should be called Death
Only if she can also be called Birth.
Man, I would really love it James, if you would just write a huge detailed volume about this sort of stuff for Golarion.
It'd be awesome.
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Perhaps she's like Neil Gaiman's Death of the Endless, she's the one who closes up the Book of Fate and turns the lights out on the universe when it's all over.Death being my favorite comic book character, and Pharasma in large part being my invention... you might just be on to something there! ;)
So she's a cute perky Goth?
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New headcanon: when Pharasma inevitably finds herself at the end of the line, she gets up from her seat and heads on to whatever fate the Psychopomp of Psychopomps has for herself. The Pharasma that just arrived? She sits down, and a new universe is born.
Some sages speculate that this has happened before.
It should be noted that although worship isn't world exclusive, deities in the Pathfinder pantheon focus their attention on Golarion. This is similar to how D&D campaigns have different pantheons for each setting, even though they're technically all part of the same multiverse. Pharasma seems like the only true "universal" goddess, but it might be possible there exist a different gods of death that fulfills her role for other worlds in the Material Plane.
Also, petitioners generally either stop caring about plights of the multiverse or become fully fledged outsiders like agathions. This is why you rarely see adventures dealing with them.
James Jacobs has shot this down somewhere, so it isn't canon, but I like the idea that Gods can be known by different names and faces.
James Jacobs has shot this down somewhere, so it isn't canon, but I like the idea that Gods can be known by different names and faces.
That's an interesting idea. After all, the text merely says what mortals depict the gods as, not a concrete description of what exactly they look like. For example, the Thassilonians depicted Pharasma as a woman with multiple arms and faces. Who's to say that isn't any as legitimate as the typical pale woman that she's usually illustrated as in the books? A god being known by different names makes more sense with language barriers. So it's reasonable to say that a god might have radically different appearances and names across cultures.
Well, it is canonical that cultures tend to vary their depictions to match their local culture, current era, and own race. It also isn't had to presume that the Elven word for 'Desna' might not be the same as the Taldane word. (Yahweh, Jehovah, and Allah are all words for the same being, for instance, even if everything else seems to be up for debate.)
I mean taking it a step further, and saying that Nerull and Urgathoa are actually the same being. That Pelor and Sarenrae are the same. That Wee Jas is an aspect of Pharasma, as is Anubis. That Gorum is the Orc God Varg, interpreted in a human-friendly way (or vice versa.)
Basically saying that syncretism happens because they're looking at the same god from different directions. Mere mortals trying to understand Gods are like the figurative blind men describing an elephant.
We know that some gods have several different forms (assuming that they can't just take any form they want). Desna may be some kind of Giant Moth Creature, and JJ has hinted that her origin may be more closely linked to the Great Old Ones and the void than to the outer planes. Different images have different meanings depending on the culture.
Ancient human cultures clearly venerated the corpulent and (apparently) pregnant Goddess figure. However current western culture is unlikely to venerate a female at all, let alone a corpulent or pregnant one.
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The gods can ABSOLUTELY be depicted in different ways. Desna's a great example. She's only relatively recently favored her current elven butterfly form. But they're generally known by their actual names throughout the worlds they're worshiped on. There may well be a few who deliberately hide their names or encourage being worshiped under different names for their own reasons, but for the most part, the gods want you to know who they are.
And from a real-world brand perspective, it's important we don't dilute their character to confuse customers.
I understand their relationship. But Golarion gods have titles as well - 'Torag' could be foreshortened Dwarven for 'Father of Creation' the same way that 'Yahweh' is foreshortened Hebrew.
And then the Taldan word for 'Torag' could be close to, but not quite quite, the same as the Dwarven word, the same way that 'Jehovah' is not quite 'Yahweh'.
Just like how John, Juan, Jean, Johann, Giovanni, Hans, Sean, Ian, Ivan, and Evan are all variations on 'John' in different cultures and languages.
I am absolutely not saying that Paizo should give us the names of the deities in every in-game language. That would be just as pointless as trying to write all the dialog text in actual Taldane, and as James points out above, dilutes the brand in a really un-helpful way.
I am also not arguing for some sort of change to canon. As long as the game remains 95% focused on Golarion, the question is moot. (The remaining 5% is things like Rasputin Must Die.)
All I am saying is that if your game for some reason has to reconcile how Anubis and Pharasma both exist (in Mummy's Mask), or how Helios and Sarenrae both exist (because you bring in the Greek gods), or whatever, syncretism is far from the worst explanation.
This kind of thing can also be mined for inspiration. For instance, I really like Kevin Andrew Murphy's theory that Erastil is actually Odin. That doesn't mean that the Skald word for 'Erastil' is secretly 'Odin', but it does give me ideas about how the Ulfen might view him, or what form their worship might take.
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I understand their relationship. But Golarion gods have titles as well - 'Torag' could be foreshortened Dwarven for 'Father of Creation' the same way that 'Yahweh' is foreshortened Hebrew.
And then the Taldan word for 'Torag' could be close to, but not quite quite, the same as the Dwarven word, the same way that 'Jehovah' is not quite 'Yahweh'.
Just like how John, Juan, Jean, Johann, Giovanni, Hans, Sean, Ian, Ivan, and Evan are all variations on 'John' in different cultures and languages.
I am absolutely not saying that Paizo should give us the names of the deities in every in-game language. That would be just as pointless as trying to write all the dialog text in actual Taldane, and as James points out above, dilutes the brand in a really un-helpful way.
I am also not arguing for some sort of change to canon. As long as the game remains 95% focused on Golarion, the question is moot. (The remaining 5% is things like Rasputin Must Die.)
All I am saying is that if your game for some reason has to reconcile how Anubis and Pharasma both exist (in Mummy's Mask), or how Helios and Sarenrae both exist (because you bring in the Greek gods), or whatever, syncretism is far from the worst explanation.
This kind of thing can also be mined for inspiration. For instance, I really like Kevin Andrew Murphy's theory that Erastil is actually Odin. That doesn't mean that the Skald word for 'Erastil' is secretly 'Odin', but it does give me ideas about how the Ulfen might view him, or what form their worship might take.
I happen to really not like the theory that Erastil is Odin, so that'd never fly for real. Especially since, if anything, Erastil as originally inspired for my homebrew was STRONGLY influenced by the Celtic pantheon and the master of the wild hunt...
Of course, in home games, whatever the GM says goes, but for official Golarion content, I'm pretty pleased and happy and satisfied with where we are now—with the gods being who they are and NOT being different by culture.
(THAT SAID: When a deity is worshiped in another culture, while their name doesn't change, the details of HOW they're worshiped and what their "nicknames" are does. Abadar, for example, is still called Abadar in Tian Xia, but there he's known as not the "Master of the First Vault" but the "God of Walls and Ditches.")
The idea of the God of Ditches makes me laugh
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Hey, it's better than being the God of Biscuits.
I understand their relationship. But Golarion gods have titles as well - 'Torag' could be foreshortened Dwarven for 'Father of Creation' the same way that 'Yahweh' is foreshortened Hebrew.
And then the Taldan word for 'Torag' could be close to, but not quite quite, the same as the Dwarven word, the same way that 'Jehovah' is not quite 'Yahweh'.
Just like how John, Juan, Jean, Johann, Giovanni, Hans, Sean, Ian, Ivan, and Evan are all variations on 'John' in different cultures and languages.
I am absolutely not saying that Paizo should give us the names of the deities in every in-game language. That would be just as pointless as trying to write all the dialog text in actual Taldane, and as James points out above, dilutes the brand in a really un-helpful way.
I am also not arguing for some sort of change to canon. As long as the game remains 95% focused on Golarion, the question is moot. (The remaining 5% is things like Rasputin Must Die.)
All I am saying is that if your game for some reason has to reconcile how Anubis and Pharasma both exist (in Mummy's Mask), or how Helios and Sarenrae both exist (because you bring in the Greek gods), or whatever, syncretism is far from the worst explanation.
This kind of thing can also be mined for inspiration. For instance, I really like Kevin Andrew Murphy's theory that Erastil is actually Odin. That doesn't mean that the Skald word for 'Erastil' is secretly 'Odin', but it does give me ideas about how the Ulfen might view him, or what form their worship might take.
I happen to really not like the theory that Erastil is Odin, so that'd never fly for real. Especially since, if anything, Erastil as originally inspired for my homebrew was STRONGLY influenced by the Celtic pantheon and the master of the wild hunt...
Of course, in home games, whatever the GM says goes, but for official Golarion content, I'm pretty pleased and happy...
In some versions of german folklore the Wild Hunt WAS lead by Odin. Just felt like bringing that up.
Interesting. News to me, though. And as such, doesn't really change the fact that I was never directly inspired by Odin to create Erastil.In some versions of german folklore the Wild Hunt WAS lead by Odin. Just felt like bringing that up.
Oh, this reminds me, and you've probably been asked this before, but why of all Earth pantheons the Egyptian one is active on Golarion? And I mean from a design point of view, not a lore one, but you can answer it like that as well.
Also, does that mean that the ancient Egyptians had Divine Magic at their disposal as recent as the time of the Roman Empire? And would the influence of such gods come back to Earth now that there are many Neo-Pagan groups reviving worship in older gods, including the Egyptian ones?