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So, I've started going to PFS in Brisbane - AU, and although the players and GMs are awesome, I just can't keep going. The place where the sessions are held is incredibly noisy (due to the establishment being full of 12 year olds playing yugioh or MTG) and not only completely breaks the immersion but most of the time I have no idea what is going on because I can't hear the GM or other players. The result is me being totally bored or annoyed.
I realise this might be problem I have, since I haven't heard anyone complain much about it, it it is simply a very unwelcome environment for me. Do any other groups have to deal with the same issue? What have you done about it?
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I think this is a common problem in PFS because a lot of us play in shared spaces.
I usually try to sit close to the GM. I also prefer to sit with my back to the MTG players. Even if that puts me closer to them, I find that if I cup my ears I can hear the GM better.
You can try to talk to the store about scheduling PFS at a different time, but sometimes you are stuck with the schedule they give you.
In short, you aren't alone.
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I also play in a large game store where noise can bea problem. I try to sit in a spot closest to the GM. If one of those spots is already taken, I politely state my problem and the other person is thoughtfully considerate enough to let me take that seat. I usually have to lean in a bit to hear the GM more clearly or I may need to ask for something to be repeated but it doesn't bother anyone.
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Buy the GM a bottle of water, cup your ears in their direction, ask the GM to speak up, ask your neighbors if they can keep it down, ask the store coordinator if they can address the noise, see if there's a quieter spot elsewhere in the venue, and/or look around at other gaming sites.
You're not alone.
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We at times have that problem (either at Cons or in 1 of the rooms we use), I tell my players to ask me to speak up if necessary, it won't bother me, I just sometimes forget (or can't tell if I'm loud enough). I have asked nearby MTG players to lower their volume a bit (though I understand that MTG is a much bigger money maker for the venue than Pathfinder). Water/Cough Drops for the GM can help. I also will write important details or ones the players ask about on the extra (if applicable) parts of the map so they can see them.
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Knurheim,
you are not alone and your situation is pretty common. The event we ran today was in a shared space with two other games going on (D&D and MTG). While having all three groups in the store at the same time isn't normal, it does happen often enough (our FLGS does host PFS and D&D both on Sunday, though we try to start by Noon and the D&D guys usually don't show up until around three).
We do our best, as GMS, to make sure that we spread out the different tables as much as possible and I try to make sure that I speak a little louder than I think is necessary, to be sure that my players can hear me. Also, I've found it very helpful to stand up while reading box text, as this ensures I am not speaking into the table or my GM screen.
I hope this helps.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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So, I've started going to PFS in Brisbane - AU, and although the players and GMs are awesome, I just can't keep going. The place where the sessions are held is incredibly noisy (due to the establishment being full of 12 year olds playing yugioh or MTG) and not only completely breaks the immersion but most of the time I have no idea what is going on because I can't hear the GM or other players. The result is me being totally bored or annoyed.
I realise this might be problem I have, since I haven't heard anyone complain much about it, it it is simply a very unwelcome environment for me. Do any other groups have to deal with the same issue? What have you done about it?
Oh and since this is your first post, welcome to PFS, you don't have to be crazy to stay... we will take care of that ^^
EDIT: Ask the GM/the other players, if they would be open to the idea of playing somewhere else, maybe at someones home.
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Noise would be much more of a problem than it is at our current venue but we hold our weekly gameday during the day on Saturday and the store we hold it at usually has it's other events in the evening. Every so often they hold special events during the day which can cause problems. With Free Comic Book Day coming up, the store is a mad house so they actually got their landlord to let them use an unused section of the strip mall the store is in for all the gaming for May.
The primary PFS store in Orlando holds their games in the evening and it is incredibly noisy. I have no doubt they have lost players simply because of the noise.
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I've had noise at one of our venues be pretty bad several times, but there isn't much we can do about it. Sometimes you can barely hear people less than 10 feet from you. That's what happens at a gamer focused resturaunt, and my voice starts cracking by the end of the night while GMing due to yelling all night. Water is my best friend those nights, and sometimes lozenges.
Developer
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One of the stores for which I was a store liaison (before working for Paizo) was really good about policing the noise levels. When things got too loud, the store owner would call for people's attention, announce that things were getting too loud (often in the context of not being able to hear her customers on the other side of the counter), and then thank them for their help in making [Store Name] a fun place to be. This usually helped to reset the volume, which could rise ever louder as Group A would speak louder to be heard over Group B (and so on). Sure, she had to make the announcement roughly once or twice per double-length game day, but each time it helped reestablish a comfortable ambiance and remind us to be mindful of our neighbors.
In my anecdotal experience, a store owner is usually willing to take steps in maintaining an enjoyable gaming environment, especially for groups that are polite and make a point to make the occasional purchase. You might have a chat with the owner or person on duty to see if this would work for the venue in question.
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Manager - Archangel Games
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I am going to comment on this as a game store business owner first and as a player second. I can NOT turn the MtG players away on Pathfinder night. (Yes I know no one actually suggested it but we have all thought it, myself included.) MTG is 45.24% of my gross sales and Pathfinder products are 5.10%.
That said my MtG players know that Pathfinder night's they get last choice of tables. They also know that if asked to quiet down they are expected to do so. My Pathfinder GM's know they are expected to be polite when asking, and if they get guff over it, they are to bring it to my attention and I WILL HANDLE IT. Mutual respect is a very helpful thing but it has to be built. B~!%+ing under your breath about those other people does no one any good. (I am not suggesting anyone here was so don't take it that way lol.)
Several of the suggestions for GM's above are helpful. I am also going to suggest that table arrangements can also help. We find if the noise is behind the GM and the players are in front of the GM it is easier to hear. Also rearranging tables to create a dead space between you and the other gamers in the room can help. We find it is easier to hear when we take 2 eight foot tables and make a block of them rather than a long line, it lets everyone be closer to the GM and the map. Every space has it's own acoustics, most store owners will let you rearrange the tables at least a bit, see what you can do.
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Yeah there's a local place I've stopped playing at partially because of the noise level.
There's a group of 8 or 9 that play some RPG next to the space we have to play PFS and there's a guy that will literally start yelling so loudly that the whole store stops dead. Apparently management is fine with it. I found myself straining my voice while GMing and felt very sore afterwards just to get the game in.
Of course, that place has other problems with it too. An absolutely disgusting bathroom in which you're afraid to touch the sink (we carry hand sanitizer instead), broken uncomfortable chairs, not enough chairs, tables with holes in the middle of them. Add in a 40 minute drive (not their fault of course) and a firm out the door in 4 hours b/c the place is closing so every game is rushed and it's been crossed off the list of places wife and I will go play PFS in town.
Not every place is a good one to play, and I'm of the opinion that it's much easier to find a better one than to try and fix one that isn't very good.
Fortunately we are lucky enough to have other places locally for PFS which are much better.
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I am going to comment on this as a game store business owner first and as a player second. I can NOT turn the MtG players away on Pathfinder night. (Yes I know no one actually suggested it but we have all thought it, myself included.) MTG is 45.24% of my gross sales and Pathfinder products are 5.10%.
That is a lot. I did not expect Pathfinder to have much more, but I really did underestimate MTG. If you don't mind the question: Are the other 50% mostly other role playing games, table tops or more "traditional" board games (I'm not talking Risk or Monopoly, but more Settlers of Catan, Twilight Imperium, Game of Thrones, Pandemic...)?
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I am going to comment on this as a game store business owner first and as a player second. I can NOT turn the MtG players away on Pathfinder night. (Yes I know no one actually suggested it but we have all thought it, myself included.) MTG is 45.24% of my gross sales and Pathfinder products are 5.10%.That is a lot. I did not expect Pathfinder to have much more, but I really did underestimate MTG. If you don't mind the question: Are the other 50% mostly other role playing games, table tops or more "traditional" board games (I'm not talking Risk or Monopoly, but more Settlers of Catan, Twilight Imperium, Game of Thrones, Pandemic...)?
Part of the problem, having seen the same claim from other store owners, seems to be a combination of Paizo's rules for PFS and their business model being rather hostile to store owners. Requiring that you have either the entire book or a printout of a PDF as a reference at the table and the raw number of books available pushes people to PDFs, and Paizo has gone out of their way to not offer PDFs through other means (such as bundled books and PDFs), despite the ready availability of such services as Bits and Mortar to do exactly that in a secure manner - they want to eliminate the middle man and do it entirely for themselves, despite that middleman being a big driver of their sales (I would not have bought any of my Pathfinder supplies if it weren't for PFS at the FLGS). From what I've heard, the local store has sold as many D&D 5 books in 6 months as it has sold Pathfinder books in 3 years, and PFS night is by far the store's single worst profitable night of the week.
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Noise is a big problem not only for us as GMs and Players of PFS but also for those other gamers in the shop/venue. I myself have difficulty with hearing anyway. I sit close to the Gm or when Gm-ing I ask the players to sit closer. I also bring a thick "Celtic" blanket/throw to put on the table under the mats, it helps absorb some of the noise. We've experimented with carpet tiles and sound dampener foam that can be mounted to wooden frames and set as a separator between major areas of play...With the venues permission this worked well for us all, but we had no where to store it between game days. once we find a way to store our sound wall or mount the panels to the walls we will be in good shape. we also are working on getting carpet samples to cover some walls in a mosaic of the store's colors to help all the gamers out. Any of these you can suggest and see what the venue owner/operator may allow. For us, it is a work in progress with no definite answer...
I think this is a common problem in PFS because a lot of us play in shared spaces.
I usually try to sit close to the GM. I also prefer to sit with my back to the MTG players. Even if that puts me closer to them, I find that if I cup my ears I can hear the GM better.
You can try to talk to the store about scheduling PFS at a different time, but sometimes you are stuck with the schedule they give you.
In short, you aren't alone.
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I recall one of the play areas at Gen Con back when they were still in Milwaukee had something like 80 tables. You might have expected the noise to be deafening from all those games running side by side, but the convention had put simple hanging curtains of some heavy fabric between the tables, which cut the noise down by a startling amount.
Velvet is apparently best for sound damping, but you can probably use any heavier fabric.
-j
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I am going to comment on this as a game store business owner first and as a player second. I can NOT turn the MtG players away on Pathfinder night. (Yes I know no one actually suggested it but we have all thought it, myself included.) MTG is 45.24% of my gross sales and Pathfinder products are 5.10%.
Strange, all of the stores in our area do it - I guess there is enough Magic being played on other nights that it doesn't cut into sales to have a night when it's just Pathfinder and food/drink sales. I don't know your set-up, of course, but it may not follow that your Magic sales would go down.
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I am going to comment on this as a game store business owner first and as a player second. I can NOT turn the MtG players away on Pathfinder night. (Yes I know no one actually suggested it but we have all thought it, myself included.) MTG is 45.24% of my gross sales and Pathfinder products are 5.10%.Strange, all of the stores in our area do it - I guess there is enough Magic being played on other nights that it doesn't cut into sales to have a night when it's just Pathfinder and food/drink sales. I don't know your set-up, of course, but it may not follow that your Magic sales would go down.
At 45.24% of gross, I doubt it is worth the risk to find out.
Competition with MtG (and to a lesser extent, Yugioh, Hero Clicks, Warmachine, et al) for table space is probably our biggest impediment locally for growing PFS. Tiger Lilly definitely has a point regarding unfriendly Paizo FLGS policies and Anthat's numbers are likely a partial indication of the results.
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If you think Paizo's policies are hostile, you should see Games Workshop's.
At any rate, Magic is by far the biggest sales driver at my local shop too, but we have PFS during the day on the first Saturday of the month, which avoids Friday Night Magic and also bypasses WotC's usual prerelease schedule for the game, though it does mean that nobody's leveing anything (including GM stars) very quickly since we only get in one slot one day a month (though usually with two tables, sometimes three). We could go for more, but we'd be stepping all over the other games and given the choice I know what would get table priority. As it stands, just playing when the M:tG guys (and Clix, and X-Wing, and 40k, and, and, and) aren't works out pretty well.
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I'm ignorant of all things Games Workshop. What do you mean?If you think Paizo's policies are hostile, you should see Games Workshop's.
Well it's not really on topic, but since you ask, they allow one of the lowest margins in the business between MSRP and what they charge wholesale, they're incredibly secretive about their upcoming release schedules (as in, nobody including the retailer knows until the week before), they're incredibly bad about barriers to entry in their games, and they won't even permit a la carte stocking (to be permitted to stock certain things that aren't just the basic model lines the retailer has to buy a full retail kit that they can't adjust to their customer needs - my local shop has no Warhammer Fantasy or LotR miniatures game players, so to do this they'd have to sink a bunch of money into stock that would never move), just to name the major issues. (This is separate from how they treat customers at their own company-owned shops, where they focus on hustling product to new people and established players really aren't welcome to stand around taking up demo space playing games.) The major game shop in the next city over from me stopped stocking their products a few years ago over it.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread. :P
Part of the problem, having seen the same claim from other store owners, seems to be a combination of Paizo's rules for PFS and their business model being rather hostile to store owners. Requiring that you have either the entire book or a printout of a PDF as a reference at the table and the raw number of books available pushes people to PDFs, and Paizo has gone out of their way to not offer PDFs through other means (such as bundled books and PDFs), despite the ready availability of such services as Bits and Mortar to do exactly that in a secure manner - they want to eliminate the middle man and do it entirely for themselves, despite that middleman being a big driver of their sales (I would not have bought any of my Pathfinder supplies if it weren't for PFS at the FLGS). From what I've heard, the local store has sold as many D&D 5 books in 6 months as it has sold Pathfinder books in 3 years, and PFS night is by far the store's single worst profitable night of the week.I am going to comment on this as a game store business owner first and as a player second. I can NOT turn the MtG players away on Pathfinder night. (Yes I know no one actually suggested it but we have all thought it, myself included.) MTG is 45.24% of my gross sales and Pathfinder products are 5.10%.That is a lot. I did not expect Pathfinder to have much more, but I really did underestimate MTG. If you don't mind the question: Are the other 50% mostly other role playing games, table tops or more "traditional" board games (I'm not talking Risk or Monopoly, but more Settlers of Catan, Twilight Imperium, Game of Thrones, Pandemic...)?
I wonder if any store owners have considered establishing their own organized play campaigns. They could continue to use PFS scenarios but establish whatever rules would otherwise work best for their business. Grown organically it could eventually make a presence at conventions and in multiple markets. Similar organization structure to a farming co-op.
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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Something that I brought to last gencon, but ended up not needing: 5 sets of cheap headphones, all plugged into a splitter. The splitter then plugged into my iphone, and used my bluetooth and an ap to speak through the phone into the 5 headsets. In test runs, it didn't help much, because I was using really cheap products. But if you're willing to shell out some more money it might be helpful. Probably about $20 for the bare-bones system I used, or $200 for a good system.
Not that this is one-way. To get every player on a microphone and relaying with each other is a LOT more money. Or everyone has a networked laptop and you're all on teamspeak.
I also couldn't find more than a 5-way splitter, so the other 1 or 2 people at the table are out of luck.
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I'm not surprised that this is a common problem.
One of the more distracting situations I found myself in was a game in which I was GM. We had a second gaming table alongside of ours in a small room, and both tables were full and LOUD.
The other GM and I had the misfortune of hitting box text at the same time, and suddenly we were both reading LOUDLY, at the same time, trying to read box text. The sensation of reading something out loud (and loudly, to be heard) while standing five feet from a second person doing the same thing was...distracting.
It did not work very well. There is only so much you can do about noise given the small venues we often game in. :\
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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I'm not surprised that this is a common problem.
One of the more distracting situations I found myself in was a game in which I was GM. We had a second gaming table alongside of ours in a small room, and both tables were full and LOUD.
The other GM and I had the misfortune of hitting box text at the same time, and suddenly we were both reading LOUDLY, at the same time, trying to read box text. The sensation of reading something out loud (and loudly, to be heard) while standing five feet from a second person doing the same thing was...distracting.
It did not work very well. There is only so much you can do about noise given the small venues we often game in. :\
It can be funny though when you both hit the same box text at the same time...
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Manager - Archangel Games
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Blackbot my sales department percentages for April 2015 are as follows: board game percentage is 2.87%, D&D is 2.58%, Card Games (non collectible like Munchkin, Fluxx ect.) is 4.35%, Card Accessories (deck boxes, sleeves, portfolio's play mats) are 5.51% Dice 2.65%, Drinks & Snacks 6.29%, Collectible Card Games (MtG, Pokémon ect) 51.32%, Miniature Games .59%, Mini's (character representations) 3.16%, Pathfinder (specifically Paizo publications 3rd party are under Role Play department next) 7.08%, Other Role Play Games .81%. Tournament Fees 11.6% The earlier percentages above were from March.
My support and agreement with all the comments on Games Workshop.
BigDTBone our store does kind of what you suggest with our own organized play. We use Pathfinder Society for this purpose, but it is the store that provides the chronicle sheets both for the games ran at our location and at another store that our GM's run at. We print out the scenario's that our GM's purchase in pdf if they wish. (And yes they better have a watermark on them.) We have the iconic characters printed out and kept in a binder for use in our store for walk in's on gaming nights. It is the store lap top that events are reported on and new players create their Pathfinder Society accounts on. My personal set of Pathfinder books (as well as one of my employee's) (player books, bestiary's & pawn sets) are available at the store to be loaned to new GM's and players. Or if you just want to read the book before you buy it.
GM Lamplighter It is the perception that the MtG players are unwelcome on those nights that would be damaging. The perception of being unwelcome spreads like a plague. I am too small of a store to lose anyone.
ALSO I am to much of a gamer to tell anyone they aren't welcome. I will put a table out on the sidewalk or open the store on times and days we are closed to accommodate my gamers. ALL OF THEM!
If I missed any questions I am sorry. I am also sorry because this seems so far off the original question but seemed to need to be discussed.
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I've actually played in two different stores, one setting up things Sunday mid-day (no MTG unless its release weekend) and another Wednesday evenings. It's not always your fellow gaming groups.
Both of these failed so miserably due to noise. I think one thing that hasn't been mentioned is sometimes its not other patrons but the space in question. The Sunday group we could get usually 4 full PFS tables, we had the room to ourselves...which is made for MTG. 4 GM + Players all talking at the same time. If you had any hearing issues you couldn't hear a thing. I had credit built up with the store to buy drinks, but gave up after an hour of shouting for my players to hear me.
Another thing we noticed we had a group that set up in the store with no other groups. They then started D&D Adventures on the same night, we had them actually screaming over us most of the games. It was a small space and normally no noise issues. The third drink in one night we had spilled on our table, we moved it to one of our homes, and have stayed there since.
As a player, I would 100% love to invest in the stores themselves rather than online sales and feed shipping people and waiting. I like having something in my hand before I buy it, and support venues that let us play. Realistically.... I can't carry 20+ hardback books to cons and need the pdfs. They really need to have a better pfs purchase system.
Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Martinsville
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We are lucky to have a store that I play at that has two private rooms that we use. The other two tables (of Four) are in a side room and though the magic woes are heard, it isn't overpowering.
Two other stores, OTOH, have some hiccups. One has had us move to a completely separate area that is an empty store space because the store itself is to full to accommodate us. (Oddly enough, this is usually when Pokemon is having an event combined with Magic)
The third need some sort of dampening as voices in the mostly metal area echoes and bounces around.
We get by.
The first store is on a different day than the other two, of course, and it happens to co-inside with a magic weekly event.
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All of the spaces that I GM or play PFS are shared spaces, so they too have problems with noise. Some days are better than others, but cons are especially bad (sharing a large room with many other games) and I end up shouting for hours on end to make sure my players can understand everything in the scenario. A full bag of cough drops and several bottles of water are standard equipment for myself now.
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Next con i am definitely leaving more books at home and taking a picture of them with that mornings paper.I don't get it.
I take public transport to cons, which usually involves a bit of walking, which means a heavy backpack on a not so good back. I am half jokingly suggesting using Hostage photo of my library as proof of ownership to shave off a few more pounds. (as opposed to the pounds i'm saving by my CRB and Inner sea world guide covers having fallen off)