Spring Attack is a full round action that let's you move up to your speed, making a SINGLE attack during that movement, without fear of suffering from movement-related attacks of opportunity from the target of your attack.
I'm asking how you managed to get TWO attacks when the feat typically only allows for one.
Spring Attack is a full round action that let's you move up to your speed, making a SINGLE attack during that movement, without fear of suffering from movement-related attacks of opportunity from the target of your attack.
I'm asking how you managed to get TWO attacks when the feat typically only allows for one.
If Spring attack takes 3 actions (remember the alternate system gives 3) then he can't, but if it takes two then he can attack again.
Two-Weapon Fighting states that when you make your first simple attack action, you instead gain two attacks. So (assuming the GM agrees that the attack in Spring Attack is a simple attack action) when using Spring Attack you'd move - attack+attack from TWF - move.
Spring Attack is a full round action that let's you move up to your speed, making a SINGLE attack during that movement, without fear of suffering from movement-related attacks of opportunity from the target of your attack.
I'm asking how you managed to get TWO attacks when the feat typically only allows for one.
With the new action system, a character with TWF can move, take two attacks, then move again freely, without even having Spring Attack.
A more realistic fix I see happening is the feat giving you a fourth act, but only to be taken if you have both moved and attacked this round, with a limitation on the movement.
The other advantage to spring attack is that you don't provoke AoOs for the move.
Spring Attack is a full round action that let's you move up to your speed, making a SINGLE attack during that movement, without fear of suffering from movement-related attacks of opportunity from the target of your attack.
I'm asking how you managed to get TWO attacks when the feat typically only allows for one.
With the new action system, a character with TWF can move, take two attacks, then move again freely, without even having Spring Attack.
A more realistic fix I see happening is the feat giving you a fourth act, but only to be taken if you have both moved and attacked this round, with a limitation on the movement.
Ah I see. I missed the context and didn't know you were discussing a variant system.
Ah I see. I missed the context and didn't know you were discussing a variant system.
Partially my fault. I've been watching this thread and the thread for the new action system both very closely, and became confused about which thread I was posting in. I would have been a bit more descriptive had I realized that this was the Rogue thread.
Anywhoo, the overall consensus seems to be good, eh? Hopefully this will bury the majority of arguments surrounding the rogue.
Sigh I only wish the unchained monk had it so easy.
Does the monk still get wis to ac, and rely on wis for stunning fist?
If so, I find it hilarious that a class with Wis as a prime req gets a poor Will save.
Actually, really strange. The monk's saves were never a factor of complaint, it was one of the keystones of the class.
==Aelryinth
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Does the monk still get wis to ac, and rely on wis for stunning fist?
If so, I find it hilarious that a class with Wis as a prime req gets a poor Will save.
Actually, really strange. The monk's saves were never a factor of complaint, it was one of the keystones of the class.
==Aelryinth
I think it's deliberate, actually. They needed to give it a poor save somewhere, because of the full BAB and d10 HD, and chose the save that would be getting the most boost from the build itself. There's no class other than a druid or a cleric that gets more out of a high Wisdom than the monk does.
Frankly, my test builds so far have Will saves comparable to non-Wis-based full casters, even with their good Will save progression. Wisdom is just too important to a monk for it to work out any other way (especially since the better BAB, flurry and hit die have reduced point-buy pressure on Str and Con).
EDIT: apologies for the threadjack.
And a Feat to get the Skill Unlock for Heal in the first place if you're any class but Rogue+.An hour of time per PC wounded and only once per day per PC. At level 14 you can do 1 CR=APL+1 encounter and then maybe if your wounded PCs didn't take more than half their HP in damage and you have a few hours to spare for bandaid application you can go heal up and have another fight, assuming it isn't time for sleep yet. Then it's back to happy fun poking time with a CLW wand.5 ranks: Using Treat Deadly Wounds causes your patient to regain HP and ability score damage as if they had complete bed rest for one day.
10 ranks: Using Treat Deadly Wounds causes your patient to regain HP and ability score damage as if they had complete bed rest and long-term care for one day.
15 ranks: Using Treat Deadly Wounds causes your patient to regain HP and ability score damage as if they had complete bed rest for three days.
20 ranks: Using Tread Deadly Wounds causes your patient to regain HP and ability score damage as if they had complete bed rest and long-term care for three days.
And all your character needs is enough Heal ranks, a healer's kit, and an hour of time.
And then the PCs get to go to sleep for eight hours and heal up then! =p
.....Hmm. This requires a decent Wisdom investiture, skill ranks, and maybe maybe Skill Focus (Heal).
......I think I know what I wanna do for Wraith of the Righteous.
...waaaait. Are you saying that the rogue's new big skill advantage gets mimicked by a feat? Because it's kinda hilarious and sad if that's what you mean. The rogue finally had a way to be the best at some skills, and then, hahaha, psyche!
...waaaait. Are you saying that the rogue's new big skill advantage gets mimicked by a feat? Because it's kinda hilarious and sad if that's what you mean. The rogue finally had a way to be the best at some skills, and then, hahaha, psyche!And a Feat to get the Skill Unlock for Heal in the first place if you're any class but Rogue+.An hour of time per PC wounded and only once per day per PC. At level 14 you can do 1 CR=APL+1 encounter and then maybe if your wounded PCs didn't take more than half their HP in damage and you have a few hours to spare for bandaid application you can go heal up and have another fight, assuming it isn't time for sleep yet. Then it's back to happy fun poking time with a CLW wand.5 ranks: Using Treat Deadly Wounds causes your patient to regain HP and ability score damage as if they had complete bed rest for one day.
10 ranks: Using Treat Deadly Wounds causes your patient to regain HP and ability score damage as if they had complete bed rest and long-term care for one day.
15 ranks: Using Treat Deadly Wounds causes your patient to regain HP and ability score damage as if they had complete bed rest for three days.
20 ranks: Using Tread Deadly Wounds causes your patient to regain HP and ability score damage as if they had complete bed rest and long-term care for three days.
And all your character needs is enough Heal ranks, a healer's kit, and an hour of time.
And then the PCs get to go to sleep for eight hours and heal up then! =p
.....Hmm. This requires a decent Wisdom investiture, skill ranks, and maybe maybe Skill Focus (Heal).
......I think I know what I wanna do for Wraith of the Righteous.
The GM can choose to allow a (cannot be selected multiple times) feat to allow other classes to get one of them. if she feels like opening them up more. Rogues get up to 4 for free, plus have a talent to get 2 more that she can take multiple times.
Okay, that is a little bit better. ;P
Yar, it's not as bad as it sounds. Though honestly, most classes would not bothe rtaking the Feat anyway. They're neat for the Rogue because it gets Skill Unlocks free, but the benefits are not worth a Feat for most skills.
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Yeah, it's more worth it if you get two with the talent (and also, if you have Skill Mastery, it innately adds all the ones you've picked to unlock, so that synergy definitely makes unlocking two more as a talent a more attractive choice for a true skill master build).
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For the first time in ages, I am psyched to play a rogue. Thinking about dipping with my ghoul-blood sorcerer to buff up my claws a bit (and finally have more than one skill point per level, of course).
Rynjin, as one of the more prominent detractors of rogues (I say "more prominent", not "biggest", because pretty much everyone's a detractor of chained-up rogues), do you think this elevates rogues to the "skill monkey" role they're supposed to fill?
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Hmm. Honestly, I don't think it makes them particularly better at skills. The Skill Unlocks, as I said, are minor, and it doesn't really get much else skills-wise. It could have used something in Rogue's Edge that reduces the ranks required to receive the benefits (at 1, 5, 10, and 15 ranks instead of 5/10/5/20, perhaps). It does not really change the Rogue's standing among skill monkeys.
But, Debilitating Injury is AWESOME. It alone makes me want to try an Unchained Rogue, along with the upgraded Rogue Talents.
It's certainly not the best class in the world still (the saves are still atrocious), but I could see myself playing one now.
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I'm not Rynjin, but as someone who very much dearly loves the Rogue, I feel the Unchained Rogue is much much better than before.
Skill Monkey is a bit of a lofty goal however.
Do Skill Unlocks bring Rogues up to par skill-wise with Bards and Investigators? I'd wager no. Most of the Unlock benefits aren't much except for the 15 and 20 rank abilities but those come far too late for 90% of the playerbase. Those abilities are where the real meat of skill unlocks are but they're just a bit out of reach.
Skill related Talents also don't do that much to make up for the fact your spending one of your limited amounts of choices to make.
-Do you really want to get Coax Information(Even though its a little bit better now) instead of being able to cast a Snowball a day per 2 levels? Coax Information lets you substitute a Bluff or Diplomacy in regards to one specific kind of Intimidate check and not suffer the drawback for Intimidate force helpfulness. Especially since there's that one magic item that lets a Rogue with Major Magic swap out his chosen spell.
-Do you really want Hold Breath that only doubles the amount of time you can hold your breath or new Surprise Attack which grants half your rogue level to damage in addition to it's old effect?
It feels like when thinking up the Skill/Utility Rogue talents, Paizo erred of the side of weakness rather than try to push the bar. An Unchained Monk for the same resource expenditure is holding his breath the entire day whilst the Rogue is holding it for a minute more than usual.
Combat-Wise, The Unchained Rogue is a huge improvement. A Rogue can legitimately stand it's ground well. Saves are an issue but system mastery can help a lot of that.
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Yeah, it's more worth it if you get two with the talent (and also, if you have Skill Mastery, it innately adds all the ones you've picked to unlock, so that synergy definitely makes unlocking two more as a talent a more attractive choice for a true skill master build).
Ok let me get this straight.
I'm a 10th level rogue with 14 Int. By now I have two skill unlocks via Rogue's Edge.
I choose Cutting Edge as my 10th level rogue's talent. I now have four skill unlocks.
At level 12 I take Skill Mastery to apply to 2 other completely separate skills.... but because I have four skill unlocks........ skill mastery applies to ALL 6 skills???
If so, my path is chosen. For every single rogue I'll ever play.
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Yeah, it's more worth it if you get two with the talent (and also, if you have Skill Mastery, it innately adds all the ones you've picked to unlock, so that synergy definitely makes unlocking two more as a talent a more attractive choice for a true skill master build).Ok let me get this straight.
I'm a 10th level rogue with 14 Int. By now I have two skill unlocks via Rogue's Edge.
I choose Cutting Edge as my 10th level rogue's talent. I now have four skill unlocks.
At level 12 I take Skill Mastery to apply to 2 other completely separate skills.... but because I have four skill unlocks........ skill mastery applies to ALL 6 skills???
If so, my path is chosen. For every single rogue I'll ever play.
You are correct.
one more question Sir: to benefit from skill unlock power at 5th, 10th, etc. does a rogue need to max ranks in those skills or does he get a free pass 'cause he's just awesomely unchained... :)
Needs the ranks =(
Will definitely houserule that Rogues are considered to have 5 ranks higher for qualifying for Skill Unlocks
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one more question Sir: to benefit from skill unlock power at 5th, 10th, etc. does a rogue need to max ranks in those skills or does he get a free pass 'cause he's just awesomely unchained... :)Needs the ranks =(
Will definitely houserule that Rogues are considered to have 5 ranks higher for qualifying for Skill Unlocks
technically one can gain ranks via headband of intellect... :) :) :)
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I'm generally of the opinion that you're better off improving Expertise as a feat then just giving it away free.
One of the ways I improved it is synergy with a LOT of other feats.
Expertise synergizes with Weapon Finesse in that if you are using a weapon in one hand the Finesse style, you may add your Expertise bonus to damage with the weapon.
Which is actually usually better then adding Dex to damage, as it lets Strength retain some combat value.
==Aelryinth
Eh... Not saying the ability granted by the feat as written doesn't have it's place, but I'm of the mind that:
1) The Int requirement seems out of place (especially now that brawlers and fighters(w stamina) bypass it). If you can't bypass it, then it can really limit your character concepts (Int 10 is supposed to be average intelligence, Int 15 is supposed to be twice as intelligent as that), so if you wanted to build your character's combat style around maneuvers that require it for their improved versions, you'll need to be around 50% more intelligent than the average human.2) Before Melee Tactics Toolbox, it was a prerequisite feat for ~78 Feats, thats more than Power Attack (71) which people actually want to take (Weapon Finesse came in at 12, btw). As written it doesn't really mesh well with most of the them. Before Melee Tactics Toolbox, it was also only mechanically tied to Draconic Defender and Stalwart that I can think of.
So instead of rewriting or adding new abilities into it to justify it's rather pathetic existence, I prefer giving it for free or making it (and the int 13) no longer act as a prerequisite. Removing the feat tax and ability tax would open up more maneuvers and playstyles to martial characters, increasing their in combat options, and give them more tactics than I move up and hit things.
1) The Int requirement seems out of place (especially now that brawlers and fighters(w stamina) bypass it). If you can't bypass it, then it can really limit your character concepts (Int 10 is supposed to be average intelligence, Int 15 is supposed to be twice as intelligent as that), so if you wanted to build your character's combat style around maneuvers that require it for their improved versions, you'll need to be around 50% more intelligent than the average human.
I'd like to see where it's ever stated that 15 Int is twice as intelligent as a 10.
If Int 10 is supposed to basically be a 100 IQ, then are we to assume that 15 is 150? If that's the case, then I'd be either 12 or 13 (IQ 129).
Einstein had an IQ of 160, a "mere" 31 points higher than mine (I say mere, because in actuality, IQs are an exponential bell curve, so every 1 point higher is harder to achieve than the last)
So, if I have a 13, Einstein only had a 16? I'm supposed to believe that Einstein, one of the most prominent scientific minds of all time, had an Int score of 16? Getting a 16 in Pathfinder is child's play, even at lv1 - a Bought score of 14 costs only 5, and as a human we get a +2 to one stat.
I can't see Int working that way, honestly.
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IQ is an unreliable measuring stick for a person's intellect. D&D Int is even more unreliable.
It's best not to think about it from a realism standpoint.
pf's stats are based on doubling every 5 points.
So, yes, 15 Int is twice as smart as 10 int.
How it maps to real life is another matter.
You can see the doubling mechanism in effect by looking at Str load scores.
==Aelryinth
pf's stats are based on doubling every 5 points.
So, yes, 15 Int is twice as smart as 10 int.
How it maps to real life is another matter.
You can see the doubling mechanism in effect by looking at Str load scores.
==Aelryinth
I have seen that, but that's just Strength. I haven't seen anywhere any quote saying that that's true for any stat but Str, and that's only in regards to Carrying Capacity.
If every 5 really WERE "doubling" every 5 stat points, then 15 would be a +2 modifier like it already is, +20 would be +4, 25 is +8, 30 is +16, 35 is +32, etc.
Obviously, it's not; I think the example of Strength doubling Carrying Capacity every 5 points is more just an unique & eloquent fiat for how to determine how much stuff you can Carry, rather than a hard-and-fast rule for all stats.
or the double rule just apply to strength as the other scores are not that measurable.
15 int being a I.Q. of 200 is pretty ludicrous
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pf's stats are based on doubling every 5 points.
So, yes, 15 Int is twice as smart as 10 int.
How it maps to real life is another matter.
You can see the doubling mechanism in effect by looking at Str load scores.
==Aelryinth
I have seen that, but that's just Strength. I haven't seen anywhere any quote saying that that's true for any stat but Str, and that's only in regards to Carrying Capacity.
If every 5 really WERE "doubling" every 5 stat points, then 15 would be a +2 modifier like it already is, +20 would be +4, 25 is +8, 30 is +16, 35 is +32, etc.
Obviously, it's not; I think the example of Strength doubling Carrying Capacity every 5 points is more just an unique & eloquent fiat for how to determine how much stuff you can Carry, rather than a hard-and-fast rule for all stats.
Actually, that's not a theory--the 3E designers deliberately used "+5 on an ability score = twice as good" as a concept when working on the game.
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or the double rule just apply to strength as the other scores are not that measurable.
15 int being a I.Q. of 200 is pretty ludicrous
So.... IQ scores don't work that way.
They represent a statistical distribution around a mean.
IQ 200 would mean you're the highest scoring person in existence.*
IQ 0 means the lowest scoring.*
IQ tests are questionable in general, but are very very bad at measuring extremes, they often can't tell them apart.
Int may not even be the best stat to correlate to an IQ score, Int in Pathfinder seems to function more like data storage (when you look at it's role in which skills it applies to, memory checks, etc). Reasoning skills may be better appropriated by the Wisdom Attribute.
*Edit: depending on the scale you use, which is another debate entirely and historically seems to be arbitrary.
From another thread:
If you do the actual statistics, using 3d6 stat generation, you will see that 1/216 of the Pathfinder population, about 0.5%, has a stat (of whatever type) of 18, and an equal number has a stat of 3. For comparison purposes, only 0.09% of the real-world population has an IQ above 150, and 0.5% of the population has an IQ above about 140. The actual standard deviation of 3d6 is 3 points (and for IQ scores, the standard deviation is 15 points), so each point of Intelligence score should by rights be about 5 IQ points if you match the bell curves.This means that no one in D&D/Pathfinder has an IQ above 140 barring magic or leveling, and no one is dumber than a 60, which makes sense, as anyone with IQ below 60 probably isn't self-sufficient enough to adventure, possible not even to survive on his own in a pseudo-medieval world.
Damn - I was even going to write before that it makes more sense to think of 10 as 100, with 1 ability score rating being equal to about 5 IQ points; therefore, 20 is 150 (which is Genius level),and thus 22 being 160, Einstein's score.
But, I didn't think that being either 15 or 16 sounded right for myself if Einstein and Bill Gates at 160 is only a 22, but I guess I should've gone with my initial instinct on how to calculate IQ to Int in PF... neat.
Though they ARE missing one crucial part there - it's very possible to have a score of 20 at lv1 without "magic or leveling" because of Racial Bonuses to stats, so equivalent IQ scores range from 55 (Int 1) to 150 (int 20), again, makes sense.
Which would set my alleged Int score when I was a teenager at 20, which I won't even pretend to believe.
Actually there was a pretty post that I think relates IQ and Int scores in an adequate manner:
We know IQ conforms to the standard distribution. Further, we know that half of the outliers will be low, and the other half high. Armed with this information, we can pretty easily match IQ to Intelligence score based on the probability curve generated by 3d6:
IQ 115+ = ~15% of the population is roughly a 13
IQ 130+ = ~2% of the population is roughly a 16
IQ 145+ = ~.1% of the population is roughly a 19
IQ 160+ = ~.003% of the population is roughly a 22
IQ 175+ = ~.00005% of the population is roughly a 25
IQ 190+ = ~.000000001% of the population is roughly a 28 (maybe a half dozen people in the world have an IQ this high).
IQ 205+ = You're pretty much the smartest guy on the planet.Of course, once you get above 160 or so, it's very difficult to accurately assign scores, because there simply isn't enough data.
I also think RPG fans skew high. I would guess that half the people on this board probably hit 115. Likewise, plenty of us are at or close to 130. It's the folks around 145+ (or at or below 55) who stand out in a crowd.
TLDR: A genius is int 19+. A score of 18 is simply too common (1 in 216) to equate to an IQ of much more than 140 or so.
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So, about that unchained rogue...
2) Rogue Talents that are better (not worse) than feats. When rogues have the ability to apply sneak attack damage, they should be treated as having pseudo-full BAB. They should get a free Rogue Talent at 1st level, as well as one at second and every other even level. Finesse Rogue should give the rogue Weapon Finesse for free like Swashbuckler's Finesse and it should allow the rogue to apply DEX on damage rolls with any weapon that qualifies for Weapon Finesse.
So I wrote that six months ago, I'm glad that paizo actually listened.
Or we just came up with the same ideas completely separate from each other.
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I play an unchained rogue in a local homebrew... level 2 currently...
dex to damage at level 3...
but man I can't wait to reach level 4: going toe to toe vs. a boss will no longer be so frightening --> via debilitating injury the boss gets -2 to hit in general, and -4 to hit vs. the rogue!! :) :) :)
(it scales up later at level 10, but enemies get that whopping -4 penalty as soon as you reach level 4!!)
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(you just hope someone comes and provides you a flank by round 2, to extend that debilitating goodness! then again, if you also accept the bonus 2 skill points per level background skills add-on, Handle Animal is on that list, and simple pets are relatively cheap if your party 'fails you as a rogue' ;) )
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2) Rogue Talents that are better (not worse) than feats. When rogues have the ability to apply sneak attack damage, they should be treated as having pseudo-full BAB. They should get a free Rogue Talent at 1st level, as well as one at second and every other even level. Finesse Rogue should give the rogue Weapon Finesse for free like Swashbuckler's Finesse and it should allow the rogue to apply DEX on damage rolls with any weapon that qualifies for Weapon Finesse.So I wrote that six months ago, I'm glad that paizo actually listened.
Or we just came up with the same ideas completely separate from each other.
I get where the free talent is Finesse Training (and it's improved from Finesse Rogue). Is the pseudo-full BAB from the debilitating strike or am I missing something as I wait for the 29th.
I get where the free talent is Finesse Training (and it's improved from Finesse Rogue). Is the pseudo-full BAB from the debilitating strike or am I missing something as I wait for the 29th.2) Rogue Talents that are better (not worse) than feats. When rogues have the ability to apply sneak attack damage, they should be treated as having pseudo-full BAB. They should get a free Rogue Talent at 1st level, as well as one at second and every other even level. Finesse Rogue should give the rogue Weapon Finesse for free like Swashbuckler's Finesse and it should allow the rogue to apply DEX on damage rolls with any weapon that qualifies for Weapon Finesse.So I wrote that six months ago, I'm glad that paizo actually listened.
Or we just came up with the same ideas completely separate from each other.
If you use DS to lower the enemy's AC, you get an even higher boost than full BAB would grant (it's generally either twice as good as the difference to full BAB or twice as good as one less than that, depending on your level) which is a good thing!
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2) Rogue Talents that are better (not worse) than feats. When rogues have the ability to apply sneak attack damage, they should be treated as having pseudo-full BAB. They should get a free Rogue Talent at 1st level, as well as one at second and every other even level. Finesse Rogue should give the rogue Weapon Finesse for free like Swashbuckler's Finesse and it should allow the rogue to apply DEX on damage rolls with any weapon that qualifies for Weapon Finesse.So I wrote that six months ago, I'm glad that paizo actually listened.
Or we just came up with the same ideas completely separate from each other.
I said something similar as well:
Better Rogue Talents would help. Class features that actually made them good at Skills (as opposed to just having a bunch) would be good. Some sort of built in accuracy enhancer (not necessarily full BAB) would be excellent. Something to increase Rogue defenses (both AC and Saves) would be be very excellent.
:)
If you use DS to lower the enemy's AC, you get an even higher boost than full BAB would grant (it's generally either twice as good as the difference to full BAB or twice as good as one less than that, depending on your level) which is a good thing!
I get where the free talent is Finesse Training (and it's improved from Finesse Rogue). Is the pseudo-full BAB from the debilitating strike or am I missing something as I wait for the 29th.
It's also generally a higher bonus to hit than an Investigator or Bard receives from Class Features (though Investigators can surpass it at level 18+), and acquired at the same level as Investigator gets Studied Combat. Which is lovely.
I was kind of surprised by weapon finesse and the dex to damage. I don't think dex to damage was needed. More damage for a character class that has trouble hitting at high levels don't help much. At the lower levels sneak attack did more than enough damage as they could hit fairly consistently. At level 16 the rogue still suffers needing 15 or better on D20 to hit some of the tougher monsters.
At level 16 a rogue has about +25 to hit and the AC you can be trying to hit is around 33-41. Take CR 18 Ancient Blue Dragon with a 41 AC due the shield spell. Now assuming Two Weapon Fighting for -2. The rogue needs 18 or higher to hit with their primary attacks and 20 with the next 4 attacks. So Dex to damage really doesn't help much here.
At the early level the rogue worked just fine.
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I was kind of surprised by weapon finesse and the dex to damage. I don't think dex to damage was needed. More damage for a character class that has trouble hitting at high levels don't help much. At the lower levels sneak attack did more than enough damage as they could hit fairly consistently. At level 16 the rogue still suffers needing 15 or better on D20 to hit some of the tougher monsters.
At level 16 a rogue has about +25 to hit and the AC you can be trying to hit is around 33-41. Take CR 18 Ancient Blue Dragon with a 41 AC due the shield spell. Now assuming Two Weapon Fighting for -2. The rogue needs 18 or higher to hit with their primary attacks and 20 with the next 4 attacks. So Dex to damage really doesn't help much here.
At the early level the rogue worked just fine.
Uh...did you miss that by that point the Unchained Rogue is applying -8 AC to their opponent after their first sneak attack that hits? Effectively making that '+25' a +35 or so counting Flanking?
Because that's a thing, and probably the most important one. The Dex-to-damage is a side benefit.
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I really like the approach of debuffing enemy AC rather than buffing the Rogue's to-hit. It's very flavorful for the class and works just as well.
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Debilitating Injury - and especially it's ability to pair with any single strike talent the rogue takes - is right on target in my book.
I too wish that the skill stuff came on before 5th level though.
I'm thinking about modding it as follows (per Rynjin's casual suggestion):
Rogue's Edge (modified):
The 1st-level rogue may choose a single trained skill which becomes her signature skill. She gains the first skill unlock for that skill (bypassing skill rank prerequisite) and may always choose to take 10 with that skill even when stress or distractions would otherwise prevent her from doing so.
At 5th level, and again every 5 rogue levels thereafter, the rogue chooses another skill to similarly unlock, and each previous signature skill gains a progressive skill unlock (again bypassing skill rank prerequisites).
If the rogue ever takes the certainty or skill mastery rogue talents and selects one of her signature skills, she may always roll twice whenever she makes a skill check with that skill and take the better result.
Unchain Rogue
1- Finesse training, Sneak attack, Trapfinding, Rogue's Edge I
2- Evasion, Rogue talent
3- Danger Sense, Finesse training
4- Debilitating injury, Rogue talent, Uncanny Dodge
5- Rogue's edge II
6- Rogue talent
7-
8- Rogue talent, Improved uncanny dodge
9-
10- Advanced talents, Rogue talent, Rogue's edge III
11- Finesse training
12- Rogue talent
13-
14- Rogue talent
15- Rogue's edge IV
16- Rogue talent
17-
18- Rogue talent
19- Finesse training
20- Master Strike, Rogue talent, Rogue's edge V
Using the Unchained stuff to bring the skills back to the rogue in a unique/niche way.
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So quick question for Unchained Rogues.
If a Rogue, say a Half-Elvish Rogue with Ancestral Arms instead of Skill Focus or Dual Minded for some reason, is using an Elvish Curve blade with his finesse training.
Would I be correct to assume that the rogue would NOT gain 1.5x power from dexterity as he would with strength if he uses a two-handed finesse weapon? Because there's a couple of those and obviously this Finesse doesn't work the same way as the dex-to-damage feats, which have never been applicable to two-handed weapons.
RAW as things stand seems to suggest you neither get the 1.5x bonus for two-handing nor suffer the -0.5x penalty for an off-hand weapon. I too wonder about the developers' thinking on the matter, however.
So quick question for Unchained Rogues.
If a Rogue, say a Half-Elvish Rogue with Ancestral Arms instead of Skill Focus or Dual Minded for some reason, is using an Elvish Curve blade with his finesse training.
Would I be correct to assume that the rogue would NOT gain 1.5x power from dexterity as he would with strength if he uses a two-handed finesse weapon? Because there's a couple of those and obviously this Finesse doesn't work the same way as the dex-to-damage feats, which have never been applicable to two-handed weapons.
It doesn't really cover that scenario. All it says is that the rogue adds her dexterity modifier instead of her strength modifier to the damage roll whenever she makes a successful melee attack with the selected weapon. Since it doesn't specify otherwise the way Agile does, you could probably make a pretty good argument that it default to the same rules as strength and handedness - .5 dexterity modifier on an off-hand attack and 1.5 dexterity modifier on a two handed attack.
Edit: Added quotes to clarify my response, since Shisumo posted while I was typing. :)
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Which is a question for the CRB, not Unchained (incidentally, my take is that it's opposed to other people's Perception, which is why there isn't a set DC; you always get your weapon out). It wouldn't be under the skill if it didn't require a check.
my current unchained rogue in a local home campaign set in Nirmathas is built to draw concealed daggers quickly. I took the always threatening trait, weapon focus daggers and quick draw in order to draw concealed daggers as a free action... please let me know if there's now a more efficient way to do this...
Which is a question for the CRB, not Unchained (incidentally, my take is that it's opposed to other people's Perception, which is why there isn't a set DC; you always get your weapon out). It wouldn't be under the skill if it didn't require a check.my current unchained rogue in a local home campaign set in Nirmathas is built to draw concealed daggers quickly. I took the always threatening trait, weapon focus daggers and quick draw in order to draw concealed daggers as a free action... please let me know if there's now a more efficient way to do this...
I think that's the best way to do it. I'm guessing you like to rock maxed out sneak attack on the surprise round?