More debuffing potential is exactly the route I took to fix the rogue so I'm glad that's the direction Paizo took.
Has anything been done about the Rogue's saves? Especially with the Rogue now being so heavily focused on dexterity only getting reflex as a good save is basically pointless.
That's a darn good question.
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The Tiering System does have a designated meaning, but I don't have the list of definitions.
It's something like:
Tier 5 - A class with one role that it does moderately well, but with no versatility or strength outside that role, and no domination in that role
Ex: Fighter, Rogue, 3.5 Healer, Monk.
Tier 4: A class with one role it does very well and some flexibility outside that role, in the form of other functions, better defenses, skills, or magic use, or simply overwhelming ability in its own niche, i.e a 'glass cannon'.
Ex: Barbarian (strong 4), Gunslinger
Tier 3: A class that excels in its niche, and has versatility and/or defenses and flexibility outside of it, meaning it can perform more then one role, but does its own superbly. Usually requires use of magic.
Example: Paladin, ranger, bard, inquisitor, Tome of 9 Swords Classes.
Tier 2: A class that is nigh supreme in its own niche, but can be built to perform virtually almost any role and do extremely well in it.
Ex: Sorcerer, Oracle
Tier 1: A class supreme in its own niche, but that can be extensively retailored to also be extraordinary in virtually any other role.
Ex: Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Summoners
Qualifying for Tiers is often a case of optimization and play style. An Optimist can easily get a Barbarian into 3, a casual role player can drop a Bard to 4. Sorcerers and Oracles, depending on their gear, can easily rank up to a 1...but we're not rating gear, we're rating the classes as they stand.
Of these all, Cleric or Druid (CoDzilla) sits on top. They have access to their full spell lists, and can with the right choices perform virtually any role in a party with but a day to prepare, and do it well. Unlike a Wizard, they don't have to pay for access to extra spells, which is the main bone of contention between prepared and spontaneous casters.
A Tier 1 class has powerful abilities in or out of combat, can adjust to fighting, peace, social needs, and make changes to the campaign world independent of any other factor but the strength of his own class.
---That's about what I remember of the Tiering structure. Note it is extremely biased for spellcasting, simply because the power of 9th level spells is simply unmatched by any other class abilities.
Default assumptions: You are playing a normal PF game, no house rules.
The classes are being compared on their own merits, not that of their players.
Gear is a non-issue.
GM neutrality is a given.
For most purposes, a Tier3 game is generally considered the most fun and balanced. A Tier2 game requires heavy optimization by lower Tier classes and inevitably starts to look like power gaming. A Tier 1 game can look like no-holds barred gaming, winner takes all, with the sheer power and force on display of the classes involved.
===Aelryinth
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I love swindler, but it suffers for not having evasion or uncanny dodge.those are like, not really useful though.
I disagree. I reconsidered going Bandit with my rogue because I can't fathom having a rogue that can be flanked. That's like, having a cleric that can't wear heavy armor. Oh... wait a minute... ;)
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Pair up with a buddy with Lookout and...well...it's pretty devastating. I wouldn't want to meet that bandit along the side of the road, I'll tell you!yes... playing a charlatan/bandit, and will take underhanded for 4th level talent... (when I built it I thought ambush would give me a full attack in the surprise round but I now understand we gain a 'separate' move and standard action during surprise round, correct me if I'm wrong though...)
Still, even with just one attack in surprise round, I get to pull a dagger as a free action (or two of them), move, and shank for max damage on the sneak attack (now adding dex to it AND debilitating injury... a good fight opener... :) )
Mark: I haven't been able to ignore your recommendation (see post above). I have done away with both the idea of Charlatan and Bandit... just a regular unchained rogue is just too good to pass up. Charlatan would take away my Danger Sense, which means I lose the huge boost to Perception so as to enable me during the surprise round in the first place; and Bandit is pretty much moot with the Lookout feat.
You Sir, are a rogue genius.
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rant on teamwork feats and rogue playstyles:
every class--E.V.E.R.Y. class, should be able to at least stand and function on their own (and thus have fun even if separated from the party). having every other class (we'll not talk about the original/unchained monk here, since the latter requires a PhD in optimization to make not-awful and the former is still fuzzy until i can get the pdf) do this and then one class says "No! You HAVE to position here and delay your own build progress to accommodate my class' playstyle or i will be completely useless!" is TERRIBLE for both players put in that position.
Now dont misunderstand me, teamwork is all well and good, and making characters that use teamwork to excel is also fine, but the line is drawn when that 'teamwork' becomes mandatory to keep one person at the table from pouting over their choice of a trap class.
now on the actual front of teamwork feats: were that partner who gets lookout either A) an animal companion or familiar (with high enough int) gained via the animal ally feat or other means, or B) a cavalier, inquisitor, etc. who either get the feats for free or have incentives towards taking the feats regrdless, then thats great. nobody's losing out on their end to help you out on yours, and that's just fine.
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Teamwork feats were a good idea, but it feels like about half were balanced around classes being able to use them by themselves (inquisitors) or grant them to allies for free (cavaliers) and a few were balanced around being good enough that two characters would both want to take them. Many are just plain underwhelming. They're in a weird design space. :-/
It's a slippery slope.
Teamwork feats that are awesome just encourage everyone to get them in lieu of other feats, and cease to become teamwork feats and become more a feat tax.
Teamwork feats that are meh are ignored in favor of ones that don't require teamwork. The inquisitor basically gets Teamwork feats that don't require Teamwork...hence, they are basically normal feats for him.
Very hard to balance. Being able to give them away as short term, but substantial bonuses is actually a more balanced paradigm.
==Aelryinth
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I think teamwork feats are super cool. Coordinating with your pals is an undervalued tactic. Boosting the action economy of two players with lookout, or giving your pal a free attack of opportunity when you crit are both really powerful effects.
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I think teamwork feats are super cool. Coordinating with your pals is an undervalued tactic. Boosting the action economy of two players with lookout, or giving your pal a free attack of opportunity when you crit are both really powerful effects.
The other player has a Hunter and he gets Outflank for free at 2nd level (so my rogue is planning on it at level 7); he gets other bonus Teamwork feats along the way and I've suggested Lookout.
I agree that both these options will be tremendously effective. However part of me also agrees that this will be at the expense of my character if he's ever caught in a solo situation... Hard to decide, but since his Hunter class is forcing him into Teamwork feats anyway, I think I'll tag along for the ride...
Teamwork feats were a good idea, but it feels like about half were balanced around classes being able to use them by themselves (inquisitors) or grant them to allies for free (cavaliers) and a few were balanced around being good enough that two characters would both want to take them. Many are just plain underwhelming. They're in a weird design space. :-/
That was actually the intent.
They're meant for Hunters, Inquisitors, and Cavaliers.
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A good player is fully capable of moving a class one or even two tiers up, while a player with no talent for building good characters or a shaky understanding of the rules can easily use a tier 1 class to make a tier 6 character.
Especially with spellcasting classes - if you're new to the game it's easy to pick weak spells. (base wizards focusing on damage spells etc)
The dodge bonus from Danger Sense is useless against most traps if you don't see them ahead of time (as you can't benefit from dodge bonuses against attacks you aren't aware of).
The dodge bonus from Danger Sense is useless against most traps if you don't see them ahead of time (as you can't benefit from dodge bonuses against attacks you aren't aware of).
Which is why Uncanny Dodge comes in handy.
The investigator gains trap sense but not uncanny dodge. Pretty darn useless ability by RAW.
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Teamwork feats were a good idea, but it feels like about half were balanced around classes being able to use them by themselves (inquisitors) or grant them to allies for free (cavaliers) and a few were balanced around being good enough that two characters would both want to take them. Many are just plain underwhelming. They're in a weird design space. :-/That was actually the intent.
They're meant for Hunters, Inquisitors, and Cavaliers.
Hasn't kept the entire melee component of my current game from all grabbing Outflank at level 7. Of course there's a TWF guy with Butterfly Sting crit-fishing with kukris in the group, but it's definitely a solid choice.
Admittedly, Outflank is one of the better Teamwork Feats, with many other being a bit underwhelming.
Butterfly Sting should be a 'teamwork feat' too, because that's basically what it is.
==Aelryinth
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Reposting this here, since it didn't get a response in the product thread:
Am I wrong, or is the "Unmodified Rogue Talents" table on page 24 missing a lot of talents which have not been modified in this book, like Hard to Fool (APG), Hard to Fool (UC, yes, there are talents named the same way ^^), Ki Pool (UC) and probably others?
Or have those talents been eradicated for the Unchained Rogue? Which would, btw, make the Ninja Trick talent not worth that much, seeing how many Ninja tricks require a ki pool.
Finesse Training at 3rd is nice but… You become locked into a weapon type(i.e. a dagger), not a weapon group (i.e. knifes) in order to gain Dex to damage. Rogue is still stuck on a slow save progression. Overall, still very nice. Still looks feat MAD.
Rogue VMC'd with Diviner Wizard looks like a pretty strong build. With the Surprise Attack Rogue Talent you'll be guaranteed to get a Sneak Attack in every surprise round, and with the Diviner bonuses to initiative you'll usually be going first.
Rogue VMC'd with Diviner Wizard looks like a pretty strong build. With the Surprise Attack Rogue Talent you'll be guaranteed to get a Sneak Attack in every surprise round, and with the Diviner bonuses to initiative you'll usually be going first.
I was thinking something along those lines too. Considering how the rogue heavily rewards getting a high Dexterity modifier, I was thinking about using the Surprise Attack talent with a reach build (Half-Elf w/ Dex-Damage Elven Branched Spear) for really laying down the pain during the surprise round if anything approaches the "unsuspecting scout" :)
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Not the only way to play the game, but variant multiclassing isn't allowed in PFS or AP's sadly.
Reposting this here, since it didn't get a response in the product thread:
Am I wrong, or is the "Unmodified Rogue Talents" table on page 24 missing a lot of talents which have not been modified in this book, like Hard to Fool (APG), Hard to Fool (UC, yes, there are talents named the same way ^^), Ki Pool (UC) and probably others?
Or have those talents been eradicated for the Unchained Rogue? Which would, btw, make the Ninja Trick talent not worth that much, seeing how many Ninja tricks require a ki pool.
From what I understand, if they aren't on that sidebar, on in the unchained rogue's class description, they can't be taken without house rules.
So just got my PDF and I am a little saddened at the new rogue.
Don't get me wrong it is still better than the original but...
The Debilitating injury class feature is very disappointing
The penalties only increase against the rogue, the penalties against allies remain at -2 and never get better.
Also any form of healing negates them.
These penalties do not stack with themselves, but additional attacks that deal sneak attack damage extend the duration by 1 round. A creature cannot suffer from more than one penalty from this ability at a time. If a new penalty is applied, the old penalty immediately ends. Any form of healing applied to a target suffering from one of these penalties also removes the penalty.
Yeah, I really don't get why they'd leave out stuff like Charmer. Those social double-roll talents were enormously useful in certain types of campaign.
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Yeah, I really don't get why they'd leave out stuff like Charmer. Those social double-roll talents were enormously useful in certain types of campaign.
There's a talent now that handles all the skills in one, actually. So it's covered.
So just got my PDF and I am a little saddened at the new rogue.
Don't get me wrong it is still better than the original but...The Debilitating injury class feature is very disappointing
The penalties only increase against the rogue, the penalties against allies remain at -2 and never get better.
Also any form of healing negates them.
These penalties do not stack with themselves, but additional attacks that deal sneak attack damage extend the duration by 1 round. A creature cannot suffer from more than one penalty from this ability at a time. If a new penalty is applied, the old penalty immediately ends. Any form of healing applied to a target suffering from one of these penalties also removes the penalty.
I think you're seriously underestimating a few things:
1) usually the other guys already have ways to pump their own stats (via Rage, Smite, Favored Enemy, Sacred Weapon, Buff spells, etc.). The -2 is on top of Flanking bonuses, too.
2) Okay... all healing makes those abilities go away. Very, very few abilities allow you to both attack and gain HP back simultaneously, so for that round that your enemy is healing they're not beating your face in.
If you're concerned about Fast Healing negating these Debilitating Injuries, then you're kinda failing to realize that it's not only thematically appropriate, but Fast Healing only starts on your opponent's turn, meaning unless you're going dead last and the enemy is going first, you're probably not going to be the only party member to wail on the enemy.
Yeah, I really don't get why they'd leave out stuff like Charmer. Those social double-roll talents were enormously useful in certain types of campaign.There's a talent now that handles all the skills in one, actually. So it's covered.
I guess you mean Certainty - I had missed that interaction on my first read-through. It's usable less often (and less early), but is a true reroll so I guess that makes it probably overall more useful. Seems reasonable.
I agree, debilitating strike is like getting a free evil eye hex on your attack. It doesn't scale for anyone but it scales for you, I think it's a good effect. And like chbgraphicarts says, healing isn't all that common and it puts the fight in your favor. (If "wasting" a turn healing is bad for a PC it's bad for enemies.) I don't enjoy that it makes the rogue even more focused on sneak attacking though.
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I agree, debilitating strike is like getting a free evil eye hex on your attack. It doesn't scale for anyone but it scales for you, I think it's a good effect. And like chbgraphicarts says, healing isn't all that common and it puts the fight in your favor. (If "wasting" a turn healing is bad for a PC it's bad for enemies.) I don't enjoy that it makes the rogue even more focused on sneak attacking though.
On the bright side, the Rogue has a much easier time sneak attacking than before thanks to the massive buff Major Magic got. 1 for every 2 rogue levels comes out to quite a few castings of Vanish.
It looks to me that the Unchained Rogue works nicely for a Dex-based whip build.
Level 1: Get whip proficiency by spending a feat or choosing Half-Elf or Half-Orc racial options. Finesse Training gives you Dex to hit.
Level 2: Get Weapon Focus by selecting the Weapon Training Rogue Talent.
Level 3: Select Whip Mastery as your feat. Finesse Training now gives you Dex to damage.
So you are basically online at level 3, and you could still have spent your first level feat on something else. That's pretty quick for this type of build. Finally, at level 7, Improved Whip Mastery gets you all kinds of AoO and flanking goodness.
I agree, debilitating strike is like getting a free evil eye hex on your attack. It doesn't scale for anyone but it scales for you, I think it's a good effect. And like chbgraphicarts says, healing isn't all that common and it puts the fight in your favor. (If "wasting" a turn healing is bad for a PC it's bad for enemies.) I don't enjoy that it makes the rogue even more focused on sneak attacking though.On the bright side, the Rogue has a much easier time sneak attacking than before thanks to the massive buff Major Magic got. 1 for every 2 rogue levels comes out to quite a few castings of Vanish.
Rogue Advantage, Stealth helps too.
Signaure Skill: StealthWith suff icient ranks in Stealth, you earn the following.
15 Ranks: If you attack after successfully using Stealth,
your target is denied its Dexterity bonus against all attacks
that you make before the end of your turn.
20 Ranks: If you attack after successfully using Stealth,
your target is denied its Dexterity bonus against all attacks
that you make before the beginning of your next turn.
Not the only way to play the game, but variant multiclassing isn't allowed in PFS or AP's sadly.
Can pick up a familiar through Eldritch Heritage for Lookout goodness and initiative boosting still.
Alertness and a Compsognathus familiar nets you a +4 to Initiative and a nice boost to Perception.
Can pick up a familiar through Eldritch Heritage for Lookout goodness and initiative boosting still.
Faster still is picking up Iron Will and Familiar Bond feats, I think.
I find the tier system useful as a broad measurement tool, but it's important to use a healthy dose of skepticism when applying the principles to a party. A good player is fully capable of moving a class one or even two tiers up, while a player with no talent for building good characters or a shaky understanding of the rules can easily use a tier 1 class to make a tier 6 character.
The tiers, as I always understood them, were about how many party roles your character could accomplish themselves, without outside help (for instance, a Paladin is higher tier than a Fighter because they can self-heal and buff defenses, even if there's a lot less they can actually do with a sword). I've never found it very relevant in terms of actually building an effective party, and it gets annoying when players dismiss "tier 1" classes as being not worth playing period.
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Not the only way to play the game, but variant multiclassing isn't allowed in PFS or AP's sadly.
Can pick up a familiar through Eldritch Heritage for Lookout goodness and initiative boosting still.
Alertness and a Compsognathus familiar nets you a +4 to Initiative and a nice boost to Perception.
how do you give lookout to your familiar? I have an unchained rogue that would like that very much...
how do you give lookout to your familiar? I have an unchained rogue that would like that very much...
A valet familiar would be the way to go.
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how do you give lookout to your familiar? I have an unchained rogue that would like that very much...A valet familiar would be the way to go.
Thank you Sir!
Now I have to check if this stacks with the Familiar Folio's Mauler familiar archetype... :)
jesus christ on a bicycle when did all the bots get here
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After reading this thread I feel like two things have been overlooked:
1. Yes, the AC-penalty helps with the rogue's 3/4 BAB. But you should note that to apply the penalty you have to hit your enemy first and even then it's only for 1 round - meaning that if you don't have that many attacks and only hit with one sneak attack, by the time your next turn rolls around the penalty is gone. Once you hit with two sneak attacks this changes because every sneak attack (and from how I read it not only the rogue's) prolongs the duration by one round, so from then on it gets useful.
2. Rogues will hate regeneration and fast healing now. ;)
After reading this thread I feel like two things have been overlooked:
1. Yes, the AC-penalty helps with the rogue's 3/4 BAB. But you should note that to apply the penalty you have to hit your enemy first and even then it's only for 1 round - meaning that if you don't have that many attacks and only hit with one sneak attack, by the time your next turn rolls around the penalty is gone. Once you hit with two sneak attacks this changes because every sneak attack (and from how I read it not only the rogue's) prolongs the duration by one round, so from then on it gets useful.
2. Rogues will hate regeneration and fast healing now. ;)
with the rogue's new dex-focused abilities i'd think TWF would be a decent choice, especially if using the action economy overhaul (moving AND attacking is really nice).
still has accuracy issues until you can hit someone at least once yeah--and you raise a good point on fast healing and regen: are there any ways to cancel such abilities for a while?
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Meh - fast healing/regen isn't all that common. And from a fluff perspective - I kinda like it.
It does make the Deliquescent Gloves more important for a rogue though - they can sneak attack with it directly to cancel most regens. Plus - if they use it as one of their two weapons - they can use it first to hit with a touch attack SA to lower their AC for their other swings. (especially in combo with quickdraw)
how do you give lookout to your familiar? I have an unchained rogue that would like that very much...A valet familiar would be the way to go.
Interesting. I wonder if Pack Flanking works with a familiar. Then you need a familiar large enough to flank.
6 – Rogue Talent, minor magic
8 – Rogue Talent, major magic
10 – Rogue Talent, Familiar
Use retrain on an earlier feat for Improved Familiar - valet familiar
Add the teamwork feats
It’s feat/talent MAD, but sets up some nice things.
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TBH, it didn't even occur to me that a rogue could not dual-wield. My own rogue uses two shortswords, to I kinda forgot that there are other rogues around...
And of course fast healing and regen aren't that common and there will always be that one monster that blocks one of your favorite abilities. For archers it's DR (well, before UC came out), for wizards magic immunity, for rogues it were constructs and undead - that changed to fast healing, regen and GMs still stuck in 3.5.
Regarding canceling fast healing and regen: There has to be a way to disable regen because otherwise the creature cannot be killed. That way depends on the monster, though...spoilers: It's acid and fire for trolls.