However if you are in a situation where you lose dex to AC due to some special monster ability that holds you in place, but does not paralyze you, you might still need to know your flat-footed AC. That means it is good to know your flat-footed AC also, even if you are not really flat-footed.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Ravingdork is incorrect. You can not be caught flatfooted, even by a higher level rogue.
What he is thinking of is improved uncanny dodge which says you can not be flanked, unless the enemy has 4 more rogue levels than you have.
It would be interesting to set up a gladiatorial style fight between two high level rogues of equal level, who now have the inability to sneak attack each other (and thus unable to debilitate each other)
[insert evil DM laughter here]
:)
Ah, it does seem I was mistaken. Nevertheless, I believe it more beneficial to leave it as shown for the reasons wraithstrike suggested.
|
|
Ravingdork is incorrect. You can not be caught flatfooted, even by a higher level rogue.
What he is thinking of is improved uncanny dodge which says you can not be flanked, unless the enemy has 4 more rogue levels than you have.
It would be interesting to set up a gladiatorial style fight between two high level rogues of equal level, who now have the inability to sneak attack each other (and thus unable to debilitate each other)
[insert evil DM laughter here]
:)
The one with the Two Weapon Feint/Greater Feint build wins!
(feinting is called out as a specific weakness of Uncanny Dodge)
...assuming feint wins, the other rogue can still (now) do a full attack with dex to damage (high level could mean 4 attacks including haste... more with TWF feats)
whereas the feint rogue gets one attack only (albeit with debilitating injury, this would make for an interesting fight!)
Two Weapon Feint lets you feint instead of your first attack in a TWF routine, meaning all his other attacks all are against the flat-footed AC and gaining sneak attack damage, and after the first hit you'll apply debilitating injury too.
|
|
Ok you win. Two Weapon Feint is disgusting. Take the feinting route if you're worried about other rogues. Actually... take the feinting route ALWAYS???? I'm starting to wonder if I should stick to teamwork feats (outflank, lookout) to bank on the surprise round, or go that TW Feint way.......... hmmmmmm..........
|
Two Weapon Feint lets you feint instead of your first attack in a TWF routine, meaning all his other attacks all are against the flat-footed AC and gaining sneak attack damage, and after the first hit you'll apply debilitating injury too....assuming feint wins, the other rogue can still (now) do a full attack with dex to damage (high level could mean 4 attacks including haste... more with TWF feats)
whereas the feint rogue gets one attack only (albeit with debilitating injury, this would make for an interesting fight!)
Technically that's Improved Two-Weapon Feint. Two-Weapon Feint alone only lets you get the next attack in your full-attack series against his flat-footed AC.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
A Strategist Cavalier is the Rogue's best friend.
Both natively have Paired Opportunist.
The Strategist Cavalier gives the Rogue Improved Feint Partner via Drill instructor and up to 3 more people, just 'cause.
Both are next to one another, staring down a Big Bad Thingy which has an Int Score.
You burn Stamina and sacrifice your lowest-iteration Attack to make a Feint before your other Attacks, and succeed (because most things have an ABYSMAL Sense Motive, honestly).
Improved Feint Partner triggers for the Cavalier, he gets an AOO and swings, with a +4 to-hit against a Flat-Footed foe.
Paired Opportunist triggers for you, and you swing with a +4 to-hit.
Continue to be a human Cuisinart, having thus exchanged your LOWEST attack bonus for an attack made at your Base Attack Bonus +4!
It is still an accuracy loss compared to how much they could have. It just offsets it (as would being 2-3 levels higher, for example). Also, that's yet another feat.
But getting a chance to hit their FFAC means that the 10% loss is offset by a gain, and usually a fairly decent one, at that.
|
|
Technically that's Improved Two-Weapon Feint. Two-Weapon Feint alone only lets you get the next attack in your full-attack series against his flat-footed AC.Two Weapon Feint lets you feint instead of your first attack in a TWF routine, meaning all his other attacks all are against the flat-footed AC and gaining sneak attack damage, and after the first hit you'll apply debilitating injury too....assuming feint wins, the other rogue can still (now) do a full attack with dex to damage (high level could mean 4 attacks including haste... more with TWF feats)
whereas the feint rogue gets one attack only (albeit with debilitating injury, this would make for an interesting fight!)
Well - I initially mentioned Two Weapon Feint combined with Greater Feint. It takes a feat more than just Improved Two Weapon Feint - but it's considerably better. (though not much in the theoretical rogue duel)
Improved Two Weapon Feint just makes them flat-footed until the end of your turn - Two Weapon Feint/Greater Feint makes them flat-footed until the beginning of your next turn, so it works for AOOs and helps out your buddies.
I said something similar as well:
[
Yep, this was something many of us agreed on:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2r4kj?Possible-cool-new-rogue-talents#1
Why does it take a million feats just to fake someone out?
Why does it take a million feats just to fake someone out?
because wizards dont require them.
Why does it take a million feats just to fake someone out?Ha, thats nothing. Play a rogue and try to take something from an NPC. You might think your starting out with a skill check and end with CMB on a dex based 3/4 BAB character. Only to find out that the thing you are taking is subjectively not permissible by the GM. Good things Rogue's have never been known to do that kind of shady stuff.
/rant
Sorry had to get it out.
Only if you want to steal it while they're fighting stuff, though.
|
|
So it only takes like 5 feats, reducing your attack's likeliness of hit by a flat 10%, pumping your bluff and hoping whatever you are feinting is susceptible to it.
hmmm... that does sound a little feat heavy... i think my half elf rogue will stick to his outflank / lookout / underhanded / surprise attack / leadership (goblin eldritch guardian fighter cohort with a mauler familiar) concept
Edit: suggestions for culturally relevant familiar for an eldritch guardian goblin fighter?
Contributor
|
So it only takes like 5 feats, reducing your attack's likeliness of hit by a flat 10%, pumping your bluff and hoping whatever you are feinting is susceptible to it.hmmm... that does sound a little feat heavy... i think my half elf rogue will stick to his outflank / lookout / underhanded / surprise attack / leadership (goblin eldritch guardian fighter cohort with a mauler familiar) concept
Edit: suggestions for culturally relevant familiar for an eldritch guardian goblin fighter?
Rat, probably. Or some form of vermin...
|
|
Rat, probably. Or some form of vermin...So it only takes like 5 feats, reducing your attack's likeliness of hit by a flat 10%, pumping your bluff and hoping whatever you are feinting is susceptible to it.hmmm... that does sound a little feat heavy... i think my half elf rogue will stick to his outflank / lookout / underhanded / surprise attack / leadership (goblin eldritch guardian fighter cohort with a mauler familiar) concept
Edit: suggestions for culturally relevant familiar for an eldritch guardian goblin fighter?
I like rat... I don't really see anything else that's very goblin-oriented in the Familiar Folio... My second choice so far is bat, as they go medium size in battle form which would enable my small goblin fighter to have a flying mount when needed...
|
|
So it only takes like 5 feats, reducing your attack's likeliness of hit by a flat 10%, pumping your bluff and hoping whatever you are feinting is susceptible to it.
1. You can't really consider TWF to be a cost to it, as most rogue builds will use it anyway, and feint builds will use it when they have a flank or some other way to get SA (or when feint won't work). It's really only either 3 or 4 feats. (3 for Improved Two Weapon Feint - 4 for Two Weapon Feint/Greater Feint)
2. It's a solid build (and amazing in a rogue duel - which is why I mentioned it) - but it's not the be-all end-all for rogues.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It's a sunk cost because when you are using TWFeinting, you are not getting the benefits of TWF (only the drawbacks).
Yeah, you'd be getting the TWF feat anyway to make attacks, but for this build, you are getting it to make feints.
OR... or... just bear with me here,
OR...
You take Improved Feint initially, so make a Feint as a Move Action, then Attack as a Standard Action at your full BAB.
Same total effect of Two-Weapon Feint, but with a better to-hit chance.
Later, when you have Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, and are going to take Improved Two-Weapon Feint, you Retrain to trade out Improved Feint for Two-Weapon Feint, so that you qualify for Improved TW Feint retroactively.
|
|
I've been seriously thinking of home-ruling the feint feat tree so there's a "capstone" feat of making someone flat-footed for the next attack you make when you deal sneak attack damage, including the current turn.
I.E. You're high enough level to get three attacks. You come out of invisibility and land a sneak on the first attack, making the target flat-footed for the next attack. You miss on the next attack so the target is no longer flat-footed, but you still have a third attack ...
Thoughts?
|
|
It's a sunk cost because when you are using TWFeinting, you are not getting the benefits of TWF (only the drawbacks).
Yeah, you'd be getting the TWF feat anyway to make attacks, but for this build, you are getting it to make feints.
You wouldn't be feinting every round. It's a situational ability. If you're against something that can't be feinted, is immune to SA, or you will already get SA through some other method (flanking etc) - you wouldn't bother feinting.
Of course - though even more feat heavy & situational - you can feint as a swift action with the Moonlight Stalker feat tree when you have concealment. (blur etc) But that combo is probably better for ninjas who don't need outside help for concealment.