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You can vote for more than one option.
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For the love of Shelyn, for once just give them good (Rogue only) Rogue talents.
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Just reflex as a good save is extremely crippling, this have to be fixed.
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Rogues need Full BAB (or some other accuaracy enhancer)
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Why Bards are the King of skills? Make the Rogue the king of skill.
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Make ranged rogue viable.
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They need more class feature upon the ones they already have.
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Nothing, Rogues are prefectly balanced as they are.
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Nothing, Start enjoying being subpar like every good roleplayer. (pun option, but who knows)
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No offense, but the changes to the Rogue have already been made and are coming out in the Advance Class Guide. Largely due to mechanics inherited from older DnD editions, Rogue is pretty darn schizo and has an identity issue. With one hand, it tries to be a Master of Skills, while with the other it tries to be an Assassin King. Without completly stripping down Rogue and rebuilding it, it's impossible to fix Rogues. So the solution was simple, split the Rogue into 2 new and different classes. Hence the reason for creation the skillful Investigator and the combat heavy Slayer. Also to a lesser extent, the suave Swashbuckler. These new classes serve as a chassis to further expand on Rogues with new options and archetypes.
+1 to Rogue Talents and better class features. Power creep talents up or revise old ones. Rogues Talents should not be feat enablers.
I think Sneak Attack is a wee bit overrated by most developers. Any level the rogue only improves his sneak attack bonus feels like a dead level to me. It's the rogue's tradeoff for 3/4 BAB and should be considered 1 feature, not 10.
Okay, definitely stronger than just 1 feature, but throw some strong goodies at level 5, 7, 11, etc.
I'd like to see a feature that adds debuffing, more damage, or better utility through skills as this filler.
Better rogue talents can solve all the issues listed. Heck there are very few people who think theyre good at all and it really says something when 90% of players trade them for feats right away.
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I'd like to see a feature that adds debuffing...
I forgot I had one for debuffing :/
==================================================================Rogues should be good with disarm, steal and dirty trck maneuvers.
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Better Rogue Talents would help. Class features that actually made them good at Skills (as opposed to just having a bunch) would be good. Some sort of built in accuracy enhancer (not necessarily full BAB) would be excellent. Something to increase Rogue defenses (both AC and Saves) would be be very excellent.
Or, as Suma3d suggests, you can just use Investigator (who are actually better than Rogues at combat as well as skills), and Slayer (who are actually better than Rogues at using many of the skills they've got, on top of being better combatants). Both also have better Saves.
The latter is the easy solution, and the one I'll likely be using.
They need more focus. The rogue is really trying to be the jack of all trades the bard is without the magic backing them up. The rogue itself should get a focused vision of what it should do, and leave the assasin type to the ninja, the backalley cutpurse to the slayer, the int based skill monkey to the investigator, and the swashbuckling to the swashbuckler. Mind you its not extermely clear what that leaves for the 'rogue' but I am thinking dirty fighter (specialization in dirty trick combat maneuvers). But it needs to be something that is special to the rogue, and has enough focus so its class features work together.
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Bonus Choice: Make Lemmy's Homebrew Rogue Fix the official Rogue. :P
I jest, of course... But simply giving Rogues good Rogue Talents could possibly fix the class (although I'd give them a few class features and a 2nd good save. I'd even allow players to choose which save they want, Fort or Will). At the very least, Rogues should get Shadow Strike as a bonus feat and both Trap Spotter and Improved Evasion for free, instead of requiring them to spend Rogue Talents!
Really... Why the hell do Rogues need to pay for Improved Evasion??? That's like forcing Paladins to spend a resource to have access to Detect Evil!
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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As someone who thinks rogues can be viable right now, I still think better rogue talents are the way to go. There are a few good ones, but so many are traps or just plain underwhelming.
And most of the good ones are advanced talents, which makes it a long wait to get them, and then not get very many.
I'd like to see more rogue talents that make them king of skills - talents that give them unique uses for skills that other classes just can't get.
Better rogue talents (including more debuff options). Accuracy when sneak attacking. Split talents into combat and non-combat talents (non combat talents available every odd level, combat talents available every even level) so that players will actually take skill enhancers. Some sort of slippery mind feature to improve will saves.
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No offense, but the changes to the Rogue have already been made and are coming out in the Advance Class Guide.
Doesn't mean there can't be more changes.
As Scavion pointed out, it's fairly easy to make Rogue-specific changes just by writing some new and interesting rogue talents.
Worried about low BAB? Flynning: As a swift action, you can make an Acrobatics check with DC double your level. If you succeed, you may attack one additional time with an effective BAB equal to your level.
Want to be a God of Skills? Manipulation: You may use any light one-handed weapon as a masterwork tool for any physical skill check, adding a +2 competence to your roll. If you have a masterwork weapon, this bonus increases to +4. If you have a magical weapon, this bonus increases by half the enhancement bonus of the weapon, rounded down (e.g. a +2 rapier would yield a +5 bonus to all physical skills).
Where's the option of scaling with Dexterity, like many expect them to?
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+1 for granting Shadow Strike, Trapspotter and Improved Evasion as bonus feats
Otherwise, the best way to fix the rogue is with talents. The mechanics would be fine with better talents to support them.
Change 1 use per day talents to scale with level, maybe +1 use per 5 levels.
A talent that gives a bonus to hit when able to sneak attack.
Talents to grant debuffs (shaken, sickened, etc.)
A talent that grants Skill Focus Feat on 1 skill per 5 levels
A talent that grants the Poison Use ability
Also, the Opportunity Attacker from the Halfling Opportunist prestige class would be pretty nice as a rogue talent.
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Better Rogue Talents:
Can't Con a Con: Will becomes a good save for the Rogue
Tough as Flint: Fortitude becomes a good save for the Rogue
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All the "once a day" rogue talents need to just die in a fire, in my opinion. They're almost all extraordinarily weak effects compared to what other classes get. My favorite fix is to give them a resource mechanic to allow all the talents to be used multiple times a day, and rebalance around that. I like a grit-like mechanic based on either Int or Cha (rogue's choice), as I did in my rogue revision.
A number of just better rogue talents would help a lot, too. Some to give an attack bonus (which the rogue sorely needs to be a combatant), some to give an AC bonus so they don't die immediately upon reprisals, and some to improve the use of skills. Something to give more sneak attack opportunities would be great too, and making rogues good at cunning debuff effects would be awesome too. I think they should lose in a straight-up, one-on-one fight to a comparable martial character, but if they're smart and sneaky about it they should be able to put that martial at a significant disadvantage, and win that way. That's how I think a rogue should fight. I don't think a full BAB should be the way to go for them.
I think a "Full BAB with some weapon" Talent would be a good talent.
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While there are many things that can make the Rogue better, I don't feel this is necessary. Of course giving them superhuman evasion for free would make them better.
Rangers get it free at 15th, Monks at 9th and Shadow Dancers at 10th. So, obviously, every rogue and scallywag in history should have it too. (note the sarcasm).
The point that I think is lost on most people is that a Rogue is a "variable class" - meaning they can be anything from "jack-of-all-trades" to "unseen burglar" to "street fighting killer" to "sniper in the shadows." Do they do any of these EXCEEDING WELL, like a class that is specifically designed as one of these? No. Should they? No. If you want to be a bow master, be a frelling ranger. If you want to be a dual wielding martial artist, be a monk. If you want to be a expert fighter, be a fighter. If you want to sing songs about the lore and knowledge you know so well, be a bard (and don't forget, any ranks you HAVE TO PUT IN MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS DON'T COUNT AGAINST WHAT A ROGUE GETS FOR "SKILL MONKEY" STATUS!!!). If, on the other hand, you want to be very flexible, and pay for your own way... be a rogue.
As far as talents go: crippling strike = a NO SAVE STR drain. Defensive roll versus any fighter swings (yes, it sucks that you can only keep from dying once a day...). Dispelling attack... bye bye mage armor, stone skin, etc... Skill mastery - what, no rolls needed on a bunch of skills I already trained the bujebus out of? Like Perception, and stealth? (currently my party of rogues are running 42-47 base stealth, +10 = 52-57 versus an opposed perception roll...) BAB issues? UMD for that "true strike" item and swing away! (don't forget to throw on the dispelling attack or crippling strike) Anyway, I am pretty firmly in the "they are perfect the way they are" camp.
You can always retrain the "improved evasion" after you get it from multi-classing if you want.
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The point that I think is lost on most people is that a Rogue is a "variable class" - meaning they can be anything from "jack-of-all-trades" to "unseen burglar" to "street fighting killer" to "sniper in the shadows." Do they do any of these EXCEEDING WELL, like a class that is specifically designed as one of these? No. Should they? No.
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You dont think the rogue should excel at least as the " unseen burglar" ? Does this meen you think the rogue should be sort of a underdog class?
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You dont think the rogue should excel at least as the " unseen burglar" ? Does this meen you think the rogue should be sort of a underdog class?...
The point that I think is lost on most people is that a Rogue is a "variable class" - meaning they can be anything from "jack-of-all-trades" to "unseen burglar" to "street fighting killer" to "sniper in the shadows." Do they do any of these EXCEEDING WELL, like a class that is specifically designed as one of these? No. Should they? No.
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No. I don't think the rogue should excel at the "unseen burglar" because not all rogues even live in a city. Are there rogues in the city, who spend all their lives as burglars and thus excel at it? Yep. Does the country rogue who moves to the city deserve to be just as good in the city? Not necessarily. Does the thug rogue who is just a bully deserve to be as good as a burglar rogue at the burglar's trade? Again, no, I don't think so.
The point here is that a Rogue is not a Rogue is not a Rogue. A Rogue who tries to be a skill monkey SHOULD FAIL (but often doesn't). A Rogue who tries to be something they don't have the "points" (read - experience or skill in that rogue field) for SHOULD FAIL. Heck, I've built rogues without a single level in Disable Device before and used them. It is not always what a rogue is set up to do.
By time you get to 10th level, every rogue can have eight skills at +10 - that is 2 1/2 times better than any feat gives you. Think about that.
You dont think the rogue should excel at least as the " unseen burglar" ? Does this meen you think the rogue should be sort of a underdog class?...
The point that I think is lost on most people is that a Rogue is a "variable class" - meaning they can be anything from "jack-of-all-trades" to "unseen burglar" to "street fighting killer" to "sniper in the shadows." Do they do any of these EXCEEDING WELL, like a class that is specifically designed as one of these? No. Should they? No.
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No. I don't think the rogue should excel at the "unseen burglar" because not all rogues even live in a city. Are there rogues in the city, who spend all their lives as burglars and thus excel at it? Yep. Does the country rogue who moves to the city deserve to be just as good in the city? Not necessarily. Does the thug rogue who is just a bully deserve to be as good as a burglar rogue at the burglar's trade? Again, no, I don't think so.
The point here is that a Rogue is not a Rogue is not a Rogue. A Rogue who tries to be a skill monkey SHOULD FAIL (but often doesn't). A Rogue who tries to be something they don't have the "points" (read - experience or skill in that rogue field) for SHOULD FAIL. Heck, I've built rogues without a single level in Disable Device before and used them. It is not always what a rogue is set up to do.
By time you get to 10th level, every rogue can have eight skills at +10 - that is 2 1/2 times better than any feat gives you. Think about that.
I dont undestand. Because rogues are different they should suck at all the Classic roles?
Dont you think that the rogue al least should have the option to excel at the " unseen burglar" role?
By time you get to 10th level, every rogue can have eight skills at +10 - that is 2 1/2 times better than any feat gives you. Think about that.
But a bard can have up to 12 skills and easily at least 10 skills at +10 at 10th level. If we ignore Perform skills (which we shouldn't, since there are class powers tied to it, but I'll do it for the argument), then the bard can easily have 6 (base) -2 (Perform) +4 (Versatile Performance) = 8 skills at +10 as well, and potentially 6 -3 +6 = 9 skills at +10, beating the Rogue.
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You are pretty much giving the definition of underdog. And at level 10 the bard is already better at skills so not seeing that point either.Yeh, way better at playing that instrument... and concentrating... (granted the +5 for Int based skills helps, but it is not the "end all" of skills)
No, way better at just about everything except Disable Device. Versatile Performance is a hell of a thing.
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I dont undestand. Because rogues are different they should suck at all the Classic roles?
Dont you think that the rogue al least should have the option to excel at the " unseen burglar" role?
I think that a rogue who concentrates on "unseen burglar" will be a very good one. Especially if they take a single level dip into Shadowdancer for HIPS.
But even without that: let's take a level 10 rogue (with one Advanced talent) and a average intelligence (not reminiscent of a burglar, but ok for my purposes). We'll take a 16 dex just for kicks.
Trap finding + 5 to spot and disable device
Trap sense + 3 Dodge vs traps they don't see
+10 disable trap ranks
+3 class skill
+3 Dex
Presume they took Deft Hands +4 more DD
Thieves tools +2 more
Take 10
So we have: 5 + 10 + 3 +3 + 10 + 4 + 2 = 37 AUTOMATICALLY for Disabling devices. Find me a trap in the game with a higher DD roll... I'll tell you straight out, they are far and few between. A Lock with DC 40 is an automatic success with a take 20 roll.
So at level 10 a "unseen burglar" will be a very good one. Can a mage cast Knock? Sure (and leave a magic trail). Can a bard specialize like this too - Sure, but they will only have 32 DD.
Stealth:
+10 ranks
+ 3 class skill
+ 3 dex
+ 4 stealthy
HIPS (with SD dip)
Dodge, Mobility, Wind Stance (for stealthing while moving more than 10')
Fast Stealth (if you want, above chain kind of makes it immaterial)
Take 10 (depending on that fast stealth or skill master)
Automatically a 30 on stealth, with 20% cover. This gets you by any "muggel" guards with a stealth of less than +10 (ie. almost anyone your level or lower of average quality... ie. 95%+ of the population). Throw in a ring of invisibility, or greater shadow armor and this goes to automatically taking a 45 or 50 (or 65!) on stealth. No roll needed. Now you are hiding from every CR 20 or less monster in the game 50%+ of the time. God forbid you stand still for one round for another 20 with invisibility... then Cthulhu himself can't see you!
So tell me. What needs to be fixed?
I dont undestand. Because rogues are different they should suck at all the Classic roles?
Dont you think that the rogue al least should have the option to excel at the " unseen burglar" role?I think that a rogue who concentrates on "unseen burglar" will be a very good one. Especially if they take a single level dip into Shadowdancer for HIPS.
But even without that: let's take a level 10 rogue (with one Advanced talent) and a average intelligence (not reminiscent of a burglar, but ok for my purposes). We'll take a 16 dex just for kicks.
Trap finding + 5 to spot and disable device
Trap sense + 3 Dodge vs traps they don't see
+10 disable trap ranks
+3 class skill
+3 Dex
Presume they took Deft Hands +4 more DD
Thieves tools +2 more
Take 10So we have: 5 + 10 + 3 +3 + 10 + 4 + 2 = 37 AUTOMATICALLY for Disabling devices. Find me a trap in the game with a higher DD roll... I'll tell you straight out, they are far and few between. A Lock with DC 40 is an automatic success with a take 20 roll.
So at level 10 a "unseen burglar" will be a very good one. Can a mage cast Knock? Sure (and leave a magic trail). Can a bard specialize like this too - Sure, but they will only have 32 DD.
Stealth:
+10 ranks
+ 3 class skill
+ 3 dex
+ 4 stealthy
HIPS (with SD dip)
Dodge, Mobility, Wind Stance (for stealthing while moving more than 10')
Fast Stealth (if you want, above chain kind of makes it immaterial)
Take 10 (depending on that fast stealth or skill master)Automatically a 30 on stealth, with 20% cover. This gets you by any "muggel" guards with a stealth of less than +10 (ie. almost anyone your level or lower of average quality... ie. 95%+ of the population). Throw in a ring of invisibility, or greater shadow armor and this goes to automatically taking a 45 or 50 (or 65!) on stealth. No roll needed.
So tell me. What needs to be fixed?
It seemed to me that you were saying.
" Do they do any of these EXCEEDING WELL, like a class that is specifically designed as one of these? No. Should they? No. "And you were talking about the burglar.
Edit: but if you ment somthing Else i May only disagree with the rogues are fine part of what you say.
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It seemed to me that you were saying.
" Do they do any of these EXCEEDING WELL,...
I was saying "do they in general do all these things exceeding well? No. Can they do any one of these multitude of things exceeding well. Absolutely. They are a very flexible class."
I think the "big disappointment" with rogues is that people want them to be as good as every other class at the same time. They want them to be as good as Rangers at the same time as they are as good as Bards, Fighters, Martial artists, and mages (somehow this gets into the conversation sometimes). I think they can be as good as any ONE of these at once, but not as good as all of them all the time. And I think this is as it should be.
For instance, saying "A bard is already better than them at skills by level 10" is not really true. A bard is better at KNOWLEDGE SKILLS by level 10. But really, how is it that much better?
A Bard gets a +5 to all the knowledge skills. OK. And then they roll.
A Rogue gets a single knowledge skill to +10. And then they take 10.
Pretty even board IMHO, even IF the Bard has more plusses total in knowledge skills. If you get 5, but roll a 1-5 25% of the time, that is like having a +10, right? So that right there negates 25% of the Bard's advantage... on every INT skill. So 25% of the time a rogue will be better at every INT skill, hands down. Which is a clever way of also pointing out that a Bard will be better 75% of the time with INT skills. OK. Granted. But not 100% of the time, right?
Now, look at the other requirements for Bard: they have to skill up Play Instrument and Concentration. So that is +2/level they lose (if focusing on skills for their profession). Now they are only a +4/level "skill monkey" while the Rogue is a +8/level "skill monkey." Which means that by level 10, the Rogue has 40 extra skill ranks.
Which is like +5 in 8 INT based skills.
Let us examine those "INT" Based skill options that the "rogue is worse at." - Appraise, Craft, Knowledge (10 variants), Linguistics, Spellcraft. If the rogue specializes in Appraise (10 ranks), Linguistics (10 Ranks), and two Knowledge skills (Dungeoneering and Local) (10 Ranks) - they will be better than the Bard 100% of the time with these skills. For equal Skill points left over. They can be EQUAL to them if they simply take 5 ranks in 6 knowledge, leaving the other 4 for the Bard to be better than them 25% of the time. So in reality, the Bard would only be better than them in Three knowledge skills (applying law of averages).
The point being, a Rogue could be better, or choose to be nearly even, or choose to not even worry about INT based skills and be a better Healer, Intimidator, plus any two other skills they wanted than a Bard. If they only use a +5, it is EIGHT SKILLS instead of four. In fact, I would suggest a Rogue do this, typically. Dipping one Knowledge skill, or maybe two... and then taking two skills that are more useful to their style of play.
With 20-60 extra skill ranks to play with compared to most other classes, a Rogue can certainly fill any gap needed on the skill monkey tree. Rogues aren't "the best" INT based skill monkeys... but they are by and far away the best skill monkeys when it comes to versatility.
A high int Rogue consideration: +4 Int = 120 skill points at level 10. There are 35 skills (generally, one craft and one profession). They can get every skill at +3, with 15 points to spare. That is like having a basic feat and a trait for every skill... and an adv feat for 15 skills (that you get +4 in). Alternately they can take a +10 in 1/3rd of the skills on the list. Ignoring INT skills, this is HALF the remaining skills on the list. Not to shabby.
I dont undestand. Because rogues are different they should suck at all the Classic roles?
Dont you think that the rogue al least should have the option to excel at the " unseen burglar" role?
They do, its called the ninja. They are damned good unseen burglars. Each of the rogue's attempted 'roles' can and do work in a rogue-like class, they just cant all be rammed into the SAME class.
It seemed to me that you were saying.
" Do they do any of these EXCEEDING WELL,...I was saying "do they in general do all these things exceeding well? No. Can they do any one of these multitude of things exceeding well. Absolutely. They are a very flexible class."
I think the "big disappointment" with rogues is that people want them to be as good as every other class at the same time. They want them to be as good as Rangers at the same time as they are as good as Bards, Fighters, Martial artists, and mages (somehow this gets into the conversation sometimes). I think they can be as good as any ONE of these at once, but not as good as all of them all the time. And I think this is as it should be.
For instance, saying "A bard is already better than them at skills by level 10" is not really true. A bard is better at KNOWLEDGE SKILLS by level 10. But really, how is it that much better?
A Bard gets a +5 to all the knowledge skills. OK. And then they roll.
A Rogue gets a single knowledge skill to +10. And then they take 10.
Why on earth do you say this?
A bard has more skill points by level 10 than a rogue, and can easily afford to spend points in exactly the same manner as the rogue. Furthermore, most of the knowledge skills aren't class skills for the rogue, so the bard often has an effective +3 bonus over the rogue.
So the rogue get a single knowledge skill to +10 and takes 10.
By comparison, the bard gets a single knowledge skill to +10, then adds a +3 bonus for it being a class skill, and a +5 bonus for bardic knowledge. And then I take 10, with a score 8 points higher than the rogue already.
If I'm serious about this, I can use a spell like toilsome chant for a competence bonus (+4 at 10th level). And if I'm really serious, I can use my Lore Master class ability to take 20.
An int 10 rogue would get a value of 20 on this knowledge check. A comparable (int 10) bard would get a minimum of 28, a maximum of 42 by burning resources. A rogue couldn't even roll high enough to match the bard.
I don't think the rogue can be salvaged at this point. No changes will help, it needs to be scrapped and completely rewritten.
(aka 'We printed the Investigator')
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Why on earth do you say this?A bard has more skill points by level 10 than a rogue, and can easily afford to spend points in exactly the same manner as the rogue.
Did I miss something? A Bard is 6+Int per level... a rogue is 8+Int per level... how is 6 more than 8?
And again, I was stating that YES a Bard is a better INT skill monkey. But a Rogue, with 20 more ranks (40 if you count having to spend ranks in concentration (spellcraft) and play instrument), is a better "everything else" skill monkey.
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Now, look at the other requirements for Bard: they have to skill up Play Instrument and Concentration.
What are these skills?
Are you sure you're not looking at 3.0 material, by mistake?
Concentration in Pathfinder is a caster level check, not a skill. Play Instrument is now rolled into Perform -- but bards get the Versatile Performance class ability that lets them triple-count their Perform skills in two other areas, which essentially gives them two bonus skill points per level, per Perform skill. (For example, your Sing skill also counts for Bluff and Sense Motive.) At 10th level, bards get Versatile Performance for three different skills, so they are effectively a 12+Int class, as follows :
6 + Int baseline
-3 for three "useless" perform skills
+9 for the bonus skills (including the useless skills, which, so they even out).
12 + Int final total
At 14th level, of course, they go up to 14+Int skill points.
The effect is that a 10th level bard can spend 8+Int skill points to duplicate exactly whatever the rogue spent his points on, and still have 4 points/level in hand for additional skills. I suppose it's theoretically possible for the rogue to spend very carefully so that none of his skills are covered by Versatile Performance, but he'd have to pick very carefully to do it, and he'd have to leave most of the iconic rogue skills on the floor : Bluff, Intimidate, Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Acrobatics....
Basically, I don't think you're using the right edition of the rules, which may go some way to explaining why you don't think that rogues are bad. You're not playing Pathfinder.
Did I miss something? A Bard is 6+Int per level... a rogue is 8+Int per level... how is 6 more than 8?
Why on earth do you say this?A bard has more skill points by level 10 than a rogue, and can easily afford to spend points in exactly the same manner as the rogue.
Yes. You missed versatile performance. A bard gets 6 skill points per level, but can spend them on Sing and get equivalent ranks in both Bluff and Sense Motive (for example). This means he gets 6 points, plus two freebies for (effectively) 8. And that's at second level.
At 6th level, he gets another versatile performance, which makes it 10/level. At 10th, he gets another, and so on.
Here's my idea.
-Weapon Finesse for free at 1st (which could be replaced by an archetype for archer build)
-Make Flanked a condition (so ranged rogues can SA enemies that are flanked)
-Every other increase in SA damage should feature an additional debuff (like str dmg or bleed, or something - yes I realize these are already Rogue talents, basically I'm saying you should get certain rogue talents that debuff like them for free)
-Full BAB the Rogue just has huge trouble hitting, and extra attacks means that SA is actually more threatening. Might also help people consider the rogue as something other than a mandatory TWF build
-(maybe) Errata Pirhana Strike so that instead of being a PA clone, it allows you to apply 2 of your Dex mod to your damage rolls and +1 every 4 levels?
-Overhaul rogue talents
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Now, look at the other requirements for Bard: they have to skill up Play Instrument and Concentration.
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I am sorry if i Sound rude. But are you talking about PF?
There is no concentration skill in PF.And bards get this at level 5
"Lore Master (Ex): At 5th level, the bard becomes a master of lore and can take 10 on any Knowledge skill check that he has ranks in. A bard can choose not to take 10 and can instead roll normally. In addition, once per day, the bard can take 20 on any Knowledge skill check as a standard action. He can use this ability one additional time per day for every six levels he possesses beyond 5th, to a maximum of three times per day at 17th level."
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Did I miss something? A Bard is 6+Int per level... a rogue is 8+Int per level... how is 6 more than 8?
Why on earth do you say this?A bard has more skill points by level 10 than a rogue, and can easily afford to spend points in exactly the same manner as the rogue.
Yes. You missed versatile performance. A bard gets 6 skill points per level, but can spend them on Sing and get equivalent ranks in both Bluff and Sense Motive (for example). This means he gets 6 points, plus two freebies for (effectively) 8. And that's at second level.
At 6th level, he gets another versatile performance, which makes it 10/level. At 10th, he gets another, and so on.
OK. So they spend their points in skills that let them get the free skills: Act (Bluff, Disguise), Comedy (Bluff, Intimidate), Dance(Acrobatics, Fly), Keyboard Instruments (Diplomacy, Intimidate), Oratory (Diplomacy, Sense Motive), Percussion (Handle Animal, Intimidate), Sing (Bluff, Sense Motive), String (Bluff, Diplomacy), and Wind (Diplomacy, Handle Animal).
Note, that for every one of these, they have to get another perform skill (they can't use ACT for more than just bluff and disguise). So at best, they are even with the Rogue's skill point spending (except they get the "totally useless" ACT skill, whereas the rogue can spend these points somewhere useful). (don't get me wrong, ACT is a noble skill, but doesn't make the list of 35 main ones used in the game for a reason, right?)
It is a -1 ranks for +2 ranks, ie. +1 total ranks for useful skills. Which means, basically they are a 7+Int... And every time they take another perform, to get the benefit they have to rank up a skill that is basically useless to get any benefit, and not copy a skill that is "similar" to one already known. By time they get a 4th one, they are getting no bonus leveling these skills. So at best they have 10+Int if they pick carefully (except this is limited to 9+Int due to overlaps). AND they can only use these "bonuses" for nine specific skills. While the Rogue would have the option for these nine OR the other 16 skills.
The Bard would have used 4/6 per level leveling these skills (so 40 of the 60) to get +10 on these and 6 other skills (useful skills). So +60, + 20 left over for 80 skill ranks total at level 10. A rogue got 80 to place ANYWHERE. OK. For INT and these specific six skills, Bards are better.(>?<) But the Bard only has 20 skill ranks left over for other skills at this point (perhaps spellcraft?). That doesn't mean the Rogue is broken... or even worse. Fly comes in handy so often, after all... (the number of unique, non-overlapping skills is seven, so at best, they get +14 at level 14 to seven skills... for the price of four... so basically 9+Int per level tied in to seven of nine specific skills versus a rogue's 8+Int not tied to anything). And again, one of those tied in non-overlapping skills is FLY.
This logic was kind of true before the retraining rules. Now, The bard could go with only one perform maxed until the second Versatile, then retrain and max a second performance. And do this each time. No more ''Scrapped'' skill points.
And Performance are not bad for the Bard: with Countersong and Distraction, he can make some spell useless.
And he still get huge bonus on knowledge. So no, by level 10, the Bard is way before the Rogue in Skill. With some Rogue Talent, the Rogue will probably be better in some skills, but he will get fewer Skill points (and no spell to back them).
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So... The Rogue has to spend 2 skill points per level to keep Bluff and Sense Motive maxed out. The Bard has to spend 1 skill point per level to keep Bluff and Sense Motive maxed out (also worth noting, the Bard uses his Charisma modifier for Sense Motive). And for some reason, you think the Rogue is better off than the Bard?
A rogue who does not Bluff or Sense Motive doesn't have to do this at all. A Bard who choses this as his perform can ONLY do this to these two skills. OR else the Bard loses a class bonus, effectively. Who is most versatile, the person who doesn't have to do something, or the one that loses his entire classes bonus if he doesn't?
As I pointed out: it's a wash if you don't consider FLY a valuable skill (because in my campaigns it has never factored in very much, but hey, you might be running "The Flying Bards of Baldur's Gate" - I dunno...). Likewise, Handle Animal might be useless in a campaign. Which means that these are really not bonuses to the Bard class, right?
Just because its on a sheet doesn't mean its a useful plus. And a Bard is basically 6+Int (no perform), 7+Int useful skills (not counting fly OR HA), 8+Int (in a fly campaign), 9+Int (in a fly HA campaign), 9+Int (in a fly HA, lvl 14+ campaign). A Rogue is a 8+Int straight up in any campaign. And while a Bard has the ability to go straight 6+ via retraining and lose its class bonus (or otherwise use the points they might have put in perform), the Rogue still gets 8+Int no matter what setting they are in.