I'd like to see (and laugh my ass of at) the poor Rogue who spends thousands of gold replicating (poorly) a small portion of the buffs any of those classes can whip out, only to cry when he realizes he has shot himself in the dick WBL wise by paying for overpriced consumables instead of the big 6 items those classes purchase in addition to their spell buffs which are in addition to their class feature buffs, so still hasn't come close to matching them.
Even given limitless wealth, the Rogue might replicate their spell buffs, but still can't match Mutagen, Inspire Courage, Studied Combat, Bane, and so on. That they all get in addition to literally anything the Rogue might attempt to use.
Every class gives +2 when flanking. Basically, you should set up the flank if it is feasible. Whether or not someone is playing a rogue should not be a factor.The fact that four of the six PCs in my CotCT game (all the melee characters) just grabbed Outflank as their level 7 Feat (and were happy to do so) tends to bear this out, yeah.
I am missing your point. What do you mean?
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Back on track with the Unchained monk: I understand that the designers felt it necessary to nerf one of the core aspects of the monk to balance out his gains (full-BAB and 10hd in exchange for poor Will save). Coupled with the need to also balance multi-classing (or dipping) into monk the decision makes mechanical sense. By having Wisdom being one of the core assumed attributes there is some justification in the decision to pick Will saves, as the overall save would still not be abysmal.
Comparing similar strategies in other classes there is ample precedent: wizards only get 2 skills (+ Int) per level. This allows benefits to the wizard in other departments, and his innate high Intelligence ensures a fair skill selection. However, the important distinction here is that wizards have a single attribute dependency, whereas a monk must spread his stats extensively to cater to the demands of the game. Whereas many level 1 wizards will aim for 18 to 19 Int (with racials), a monk will typically find himself at around 14 to 15 Wis.
10hd means the need for Con is slightly reduced on the monk - the monk is "less" MAD. But poor Will save means the importance of Wisdom has increased. Wisdom was already a 14/15 stat - now it needs to be pushed to 16 to somewhat mitigate the loss in Will save. However, the higher point-buy cost mitigates the slight gain in point-buy that comes from lower Con requirement.
The Unchained Monk has (for me) a clear stat precedence of: Str > Wis > Dex > Con (or Dex > Wis > Str/Con in the case of a finesse monk)
Two "classic" 20 point monks might be
Str 16+2 Dex 14 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 14 Cha 8
Str 10 Dex 16+2 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 16 Cha 8
The unchained monk could vary those to
Str 16+2 Dex 14 Con 10 Int 10 Wis 15 Cha 8
Str 12 Dex 16+2 Con 10 Int 10 Wis 16 Cha 8
Thus the unchained monk has his hitpoints unchanged (ignoring max hp at level 1), drops his Fort save by 1, and drops his Will save by 2 (along with slow progression of the Will save); but can pick up a bit of Wisdom at level 4 (in the strength-based variant). On the plus side, his offense is increased slightly by being "unchained".
@Mark Seifter:
A problem with house-ruling is that it doesn't apply to Pathfinder Society play. A great amount of playing happens within those parameters - and from the sound of it, the Unchained Monk may be available for PFS play. If so, then definitely within the confines set by Paizo.
Comparing similar strategies in other classes there is ample precedent: wizards only get 2 skills (+ Int) per level. This allows benefits to the wizard in other departments, and his innate high Intelligence ensures a fair skill selection.
Actually... In this case I don't think it has anything to do with being Int-based. Paizo believes every class should as few skill points as possible (see: Fighter, Paladin, Cleric, Summoner, Sorcerer, etc). Hell! They even say so in the ACG class-building guide.
Additionally, nerfing Monks' Will saves makes no mechanical sense either. If a class is too weak, then it needs a straight-up buff, not a few buffs and a few nerfs. This simply causes a lateral move and the class stays weak. If they are worried about dipping, then they should reward characters that stay in the Monk class, rather than nerfing Monks.
Monks get a lot at early levels, but most of it isn't relevant for most other classes, except for a few specific builds and character concepts that should be made better by dipping Monk, like unarmed builds.
From what I've seen, Unchained Monks is just slightly better than the Core Monk... Overall it's a failure of game design with a few nice ideas and a couple of upgrades that were really freaking obvious to everyone but the designers of the Core Monk, like Full BAB.
Well... Paizo has always been terrible at handling the Monk class, so it's not surprising that the Unchained Monk is disappointing.
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Well after trawling through all the posts here I think the only viable monk has these features:
Proficiency in weapons of choice
Full BAB
Flurry as UC monk
Three good saves
Paladins divine grace but based on wisdom or dex (your choice)
D10 hp
Unlimited Ki
Ki abilities that don't use Ki unless you want to by choice
A bonus on saves vs effects you don't like
Ability to wear armour without restrictions
Inquisitors mettle ability (suits him more anyway)
Lots more skill ranks, because a rogue can Do that so why can't I?
Feats that are clearly problematic (crane wing for example) but I like them
Spell resistance because otherwise magic will work against them
I may have missed a few though.
personally I like the new monk. It looks balanced and fun, but since the book isn't out and we haven't played around with it yet I can't say what it's really like. Maybe after I've actually PLAYED it for a while I'll make a judgement. Every time a new or variant class is published its just not good enough. It needs to be better, faster and Stronger. Yet somehow it can't add to bloat or restrict options. perhaps they need to publish a book on characters of unlimited power, oh wait that's mythic and I think that was too much based on the responses it garnered. so perhaps they can roll it back and introduce balance.. Oh hold on that won't make my favourite class the best one. Hmmmm.
@wraithstrike
I didn't see anyone answer you so here it is...
1st monk - FoB(1 more attack - only restriction is monk weapon), stunning fist, unarmed strike, choose one: Catch off-guard, combat reflexes, deflect arrows, dodge, improved grapple, scorpion style, throw anything.
1d10 hps - +1 BAB
Saves +2 +2 +0
Is it an attractive dip? Yes - for the new FoB the extra attack works with a 2h monk weapon (now any weapon that says 'monk' - they are all auto proficient and usable) for 1.5 str. If you need unarmed combat - it's attractive for the extra attack and feat. If you are looking for grapple, dodge, combat reflexes - the rest of the stuff is decent and extra.
The only downside to the extra attack is the restrictions on using armor or shields. That won't stop barbarians perhaps - but fighters will most likely skip it as they get plenty of feats anyway. Other classes YMMV.
I still think there is a great deal of overreaction here about the will save - all about a single spell that is rarely cast - that is only a threat in the late game (or by very rare specific monsters - where that is the *only* offense they have like a standard aboleth). As many people point out there are a ton of tables that never even take the game that high level. Honestly if your play experience consists of wave after wave of casters that were built with max spell focus and stats casting dominate every session I humbly suggest it's not the game that is letting you down.
I still think there is a great deal of overreaction here about the will save - all about a single spell that is rarely cast - that is only a threat in the late game (or by very rare specific monsters - where that is the *only* offense they have like a standard aboleth). As many people point out there are a ton of tables that never even take the game that high level. Honestly if your play experience consists of wave after wave of casters that were built with max spell focus and stats casting dominate every session I humbly suggest it's not the game that is letting you down.
But isn't the converse also true? Wouldn't it have been just-as-fine if the monk kept good Will saves? There are plenty of other ways in which multi-classing monks could be balanced to make them less attractive for dips.
But isn't the converse also true? Wouldn't it have been just-as-fine if the monk kept good Will saves? There are plenty of other ways in which multi-classing monks could be balanced to make them less attractive for dips.I still think there is a great deal of overreaction here about the will save - all about a single spell that is rarely cast - that is only a threat in the late game (or by very rare specific monsters - where that is the *only* offense they have like a standard aboleth). As many people point out there are a ton of tables that never even take the game that high level. Honestly if your play experience consists of wave after wave of casters that were built with max spell focus and stats casting dominate every session I humbly suggest it's not the game that is letting you down.
Sure - I get being upset, however there is upset and overreacting - saying the unchained monk is worthless because of a lowered will save is overreacting.
I said previously and I'll say it again to make my point - I like the idea of tying still mind to enhanced will saves - (+2 will saves when you get it and +1 more at 8, 12, 16, 20) which stops the 'omg I must dip' and brings the save back to what it was without really massively changing anything. It would be just as easy to give a new ki power -
Power of Self (Ex) As long as a monk has 1 point of ki in his pool he is immune to domination effects. He can still be charmed however any command that would be against his will causes the spell to automatically end. A monk must be at least 8th level to take this power.
That's another way to do it - which would still allow the monk to have a weakness for balance reasons yet stop the biggest complaint I see here which is 'kill your party' or 'unplayable for hours' (although from my own experience the only thing that actually makes you 'unplayable for hours' is death - I've never seen dominate last longer than a fight - either it dies and thus ends the dominate or your party dies and thus ends the game at that point - my experience isn't everyones FWIW).
I think the limited ki pool and no decent (current) ways to regenerate or regain Ki on a reliable basis are valid criticisms. I think some abilities are wonky but overall I think the class changes are a major improvement, and reserve a 'wow you guys totally can't design a game' comments for after I've had some serious experience playing it. I do understand the idea of balance in game design - and giving weaknesses is part of that design, otherwise every class could just start the game with 10,000 hps and full casting with a BAB of +80. The game isn't fun if there is no room for failure anywhere.
The opposite is true as well - the game isn't fun when your main abilities are either resisted, unusable, or just don't work right - which is how the old FoB was - unable to move to flurry - and typically whiff, whiff, whiff, whiff. You got to hit now and then but even when most of your flurry connected you did 23 damage (minus whatever DR) and the barbarian went up and hit once for 38. The barbarian could afford to have power attack running due to full BAB and no TWF penalties. The unchained monk can now do the same - meaning the damage will be closer to par and won't go further and further into dismal land. Instead of needing to spend 1 ki point for a burst of speed for one round - I can take that ki power and use it for 1 minute. Yes it's not automatic - but I can take it if I want it. The style strike 'flying kick' makes the monk way more mobile and gives the ability to pounce before any other martial. One of the style strikes lets the monk ignore *any* DR or hardness for a single hit - combined with pummeling style you could build quite a beast with this, and pummeling style is no longer a required feat line to get the most out of flurry. That alone is great - as it make the style no longer a 'kludge' fix, but instead an interesting option that isn't mandatory.
There is quite a bit to like about the unchained monk that goes beyond the will saves - I hope we continue to see style strikes and ki abilities added to the game to support it - my biggest worry is that unchained being an 'optional' book we may not see archetype and ability support we would if it were core.
someone else can get a bonus from it, right... what are we, COMMIES!?The Bard DID get a lot of help in Pathfidner, mostly because the 3.5 Bard was so godawful that it almost always elicited a communal groan from everyone at the table, including the DM, when someone took levels in Bard.
The...
You may want to replay the 3.5 Bard. He got to continue his Bardic musics like Inspire courage as a free action. And protip: It lasts till you stop which is never unless you want it to. You can actually do it all day at level 1.
Only concentration related bardic music cost a standard like fascinate.
Read the FAQ, it reiterates this. Sheesh, no wonder people thought little of Bard, he was nerfed by people like your DMs.
Oh, and 3.5 Rogues?
They were better than Pathfinder. We got the abilities to ignore sneak attack immunity back then by 3rd level by substituting Trap sense (who needs +2 AC, saves vs traps).
And we could cast scroll to Grease enemies to deny dex on our turn.
Blink ring or spell also denies dex.
Then we could throw alchemy splash weapons to get sneak attack (on direct hit damage not the splash damage) for better hit chance since touch AC.
Back to Unchained Monk:
Why not let the Unchained Monk choose his two Good saves?
So those who like Good Fort/Will, can have that. Those that like Good Will/Reflex can have that.
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You may want to replay the 3.5 Bard. He got to continue his Bardic musics like Inspire courage as a free action. And protip: It lasts till you stop which is never unless you want it to. You can actually do it all day at level 1.
someone else can get a bonus from it, right... what are we, COMMIES!?The Bard DID get a lot of help in Pathfidner, mostly because the 3.5 Bard was so godawful that it almost always elicited a communal groan from everyone at the table, including the DM, when someone took levels in Bard.
The...
My guess is that he was thinking 3.0. The 3.0 bard was pretty bad.
Your big issue if you do is going to be dippers. Instead of doing that, since we're in the mood for "Unchaining" anyways around here, you might want to go with one of my suggestions from the drawing board instead and build on Still Mind. One idea was to add more bonus and different categories it applied to every 4 levels, starting with charms and compulsions and a +2, and then picking another category and increasing the bonus by 1 every 4 levels. It's pretty complicated, though, so instead you could go with the simpler one: make Still Mind work on all mind-affecting and lower the level of...
Thanks for the input. I like the scaling idea; maybe start at +1 instead, make it work on mind-affecting, and leave Flawless Mind where it is. Monks succumbing to compulsion easily is a bit off-flavor, but failing a save vs. Harm isn't.
I really do like what I'm hearing about the Monk overall. I usually play casters because I tend to get bored without many varied options. It sounds like the Monk has received enough options, especially out of combat, that I could have a lot of fun with it. You've guys have got me genuinely excited about a martial character, so the unchaining definitely worked as far as I'm concerned.
I really hope to see a splat book from one of the side lines that gives some archetypes and additional options for the monk (and other unchained classes). I play PFS, and I'd love to see more additional options for the monk. (Assuming they befome PFS legal in the first place, which I believe will happen but that's just my own uninformed opinion.)
Besides, more options for the monk are always good. So a book that focuses on giving options for 4 classes - where monk is one of those 4 - is going to have quite a few, no?
I really hope to see a splat book from one of the side lines that gives some archetypes and additional options for the monk (and other unchained classes). I play PFS, and I'd love to see more additional options for the monk. (Assuming they befome PFS legal in the first place, which I believe will happen but that's just my own uninformed opinion.)
Besides, more options for the monk are always good. So a book that focuses on giving options for 4 classes - where monk is one of those 4 - is going to have quite a few, no?
One of the reasons I put in qinggong power (there were several) is to create a useful backdoor. I've seen new qinggong powers in various books, after all, and I figured that with that backdoor, a book, even one that wasn't supposed to be about the Unchained classes, could release new qinggong powers to create more ki powers. I am sneaky occasionally.
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Paladins divine grace but based on wisdom or dex (your choice)No one has asked for this.
Not trying to be nitpicky, but at least two people did ask for that, actually.
Even if you did get such an ability, it wouldn't benefit Will saves at all if you chose Wisdom, and it most certainly wouldn't benefit Reflex saves at all if you chose Dexterity.Not trying to be nitpicky, but at least two people did ask for that, actually.Paladins divine grace but based on wisdom or dex (your choice)No one has asked for this.
hehe untyped typed stat bonus FAQ.
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Even if you did get such an ability, it wouldn't benefit Will saves at all if you chose Wisdom, and it most certainly wouldn't benefit Reflex saves at all if you chose Dexterity.Not trying to be nitpicky, but at least two people did ask for that, actually.Paladins divine grace but based on wisdom or dex (your choice)No one has asked for this.
I'm not sure the FAQ should be read that way, but even if it is, that's only true if you don't write it the right way. "The monk gains an insight bonus to all saves equal to his Wisdom bonus (if any)" would work just fine.
Literally everyone has been happy the monk is naturally proficient with all the monk weapons, letting it actually use all of the weapons that combo with Flurry of Blows without having to pay feat taxes for proficiency.
Indeed. The only possible complaint one could raise about monks getting proficiency with monk weapons is "Why did it take so long for this to be a thing?"
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An in-depth reply to Cat-thulhu
You've either missed the point, or decided to counter it by taking the post seriously. Cat-thulhu was making a comically exagerated list (almost all of which have been suggested in this thread to one degree or another) to underline the fact that we've spent waaaaay too long focusing on the will save issue. That horse was dead 10 pages ago.
Cat-thulhu's post was brilliantly absurd and funny as hell. And his point was spot on.
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Cat-thulhu's post was brilliantly absurd and funny as hell. And his point was spot on.
Meh - sometimes sarcasm is hard to read in text. Occasionally I've taken something to be sarcastic only to discover that they were deadly serious. Besides - I've never found satire/strawman to qualify as a valid argument. (sometimes funny - especially for the former - but not valid)
Not trying to be nitpicky, but at least two people did ask for that, actually.Paladins divine grace but based on wisdom or dex (your choice)No one has asked for this.
Just to put it into context: I suggested "monk divine grace" in conjunction with low Fort and low Will saves as a vehicle to make the class unattractive for dipping but still retain the sense of all-good saves. Though I believe Cat-thulhu improvised the Dex choice.
You know, the current monk works just fine with enough optimization and even scales well into high levels due to their saves.
The unchained monk was a chance to make that same concept work without all the jerry-rigging. They decided not to do that and instead give us a monk that falls more in-line with paizo design philosophy rather than the monks 3.5 and earlier legacy. I'm sure the new monk is a great Goku-like character that will work great alongside the barbarian, bloodrager, and fighter but still be outclassed by nearly every 3/4 BAB/casting class.
You know, the current monk works just fine with enough optimization and even scales well into high levels due to their saves.
The unchained monk was a chance to make that same concept work without all the jerry-rigging. They decided not to do that and instead give us a monk that falls more in-line with paizo design philosophy rather than the monks 3.5 and earlier legacy. I'm sure the new monk is a great Goku-like character that will work great alongside the barbarian, bloodrager, and fighter but still be outclassed by nearly every 3/4 BAB/casting class.
Well, keep in mind that the Unchained Monk can still take on a lot of the optimization (and some new ones) that the Core Monk can take
You know, the current monk works just fine with enough optimization and even scales well into high levels due to their saves.
The unchained monk was a chance to make that same concept work without all the jerry-rigging. They decided not to do that and instead give us a monk that falls more in-line with paizo design philosophy rather than the monks 3.5 and earlier legacy. I'm sure the new monk is a great Goku-like character that will work great alongside the barbarian, bloodrager, and fighter but still be outclassed by nearly every 3/4 BAB/casting class.
Well, keep in mind that the Unchained Monk can still take on a lot of the optimization (and some new ones) that the Core Monk can take
Dat poor will save though.
As a general rule, your will/fort saves should be at least equal to your level. That isn't a good save, that's what you need to not be a liability. NuMonk has a base of 6, maybe +6 from wisdom, and +5 item is only +17. So you need a feat and a trait to be acceptably bad at will saves. Heaven forbid if you want an actual good will save.
Sure - I get being upset, however there is upset and overreacting - saying the unchained monk is worthless because of a lowered will save is overreacting.
I don't think worthless is the right word. The feeling is more that it was not improved enough. Basically if the core monk was 1.0, this monk is 1.3, and people were expecting the 2.0 version.
In regards to the math discussion I made many posts on what I know Monks at my table tend to look like, I also made comparisons between the Unchained Monk, Wizard, Cleric, and Core Monk vs a relatively Enchantment focused Fey Sorcerer. Since most people seem to be primarily concerned with the dreaded Dominate Person.
I'm curious in general, going forward. How would you guys compare the Unchained rogue vs. the hypothetical regular CRB rogue that had a strong Will save progression? It's starting to sound like people here have a very high opinion of saves and would prefer the latter. Whereas, as someone who has played a good number of monks, I can't wait to use the Unchained monk, and as someone who has done a lot of thinking about the rogue, I would much prefer the Unchained rogue to the hypothetical Will save rogue I just mentioned.
One thing about all these Unchained classes is that actual play is going to reveal more than a read-through will. I'm looking forward to seeing how these classes turn out in everyone's games!
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Some good points.
To be clear- I never said that the will save wasn't a problem. I said the unending discussion centering around the will save, to the point where discussion of the rest of the class is drowned out, was a problem. (Well... more like I implied it.) And as evidence of that, I point to the post a page or two ago where someone said they'd gotten sick of the will save + rogue discussion and were leaving the thread. I opted to skim 4 pages instead of dropping out entirely, but I felt much the same. It irritated me to miss out on some possible discussion of the class, but I just couldn't take the will save discussion anymore.
Yup. It's a weakness that really shouldn't be there. It would have been much better to get a level 4 or 5 ability that added the will save back. I agree. It was the monk's thing and they took it away. Most home games are going to put it right back, and PFS is out of luck. Yep yep yep. All true. But there are so many potentially cool things about the new class. Can we talk about those things for a while? Please?
That's the feeling I had when I read Cat-thulhu's post, and that's why I both found it so funny and sympathized so strongly with it.
In regards to the math discussion I made many posts on what I know Monks at my table tend to look like, I also made comparisons between the Unchained Monk, Wizard, Cleric, and Core Monk vs a relatively Enchantment focused Fey Sorcerer. Since most people seem to be primarily concerned with the dreaded Dominate Person.
Dominate is really only one of the problematic things that happens on a failed will save. It just happens to be one of the more extreme effects.
Charm effects can be pretty bad. So can stuff like glitterdust and slow for that matter.
Basically, the correlation between saves and effect on a failed save is as follows
Reflex: Damage, and maybe a movement debuff (most blasts, Entangle, pit spells)
Fort: Permenent or long term effects, some short term (Blindness/Deafness, poison, Flesh to Stone)
Will: almost all short term effects (Glitterdust, color spray, slow, fear auras)
Since will saves tend to have less long term repercussions they tend to be more damaging short term. Unfortunately, for a party in a combat situation, many effects that are short term might as well be long term given how long they last - Hideous laughter might do nothing after a few rounds while poison does long term ability damage, but for those few rounds hideous laughter is roughly equivalent to enough ability damage to KO someone. The severe effect during those few rounds is enough to cause a TPK. In the short term, dominated is worse than dead, but also glitterdust'd is worse than Blindness'd, because with glitterdust the entire party can get hit and that is easily enough to spiral into multiple PC deaths.
Also, nitpick:a focused enchanter would be arcane kitsune for +7 to DC over your build when using metamagic'd spells (which an enchanter should be using, because quicken and persistent are amazing, and high level enchantment spells mostly suck).
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I'm curious in general, going forward. How would you guys compare the Unchained rogue vs. the hypothetical regular CRB rogue that had a strong Will save progression? It's starting to sound like people here have a very high opinion of saves and would prefer the latter. Whereas, as someone who has played a good number of monks, I can't wait to use the Unchained monk, and as someone who has done a lot of thinking about the rogue, I would much prefer the Unchained rogue to the hypothetical Will save rogue I just mentioned.
One thing about all these Unchained classes is that actual play is going to reveal more than a read-through will. I'm looking forward to seeing how these classes turn out in everyone's games!
Well, I wouldn't care about a rogue with just a better will save. I mean saves are nice...but well, my group of friends and players tend to be very cooperative. We cast buffs on each other, or even plan to take teamwork feats , so we usually end up having ways to help someone weak points or even use someone weakness to the best effects. Like the time, our fighter got confused, the wizard cast create pit, so he ended in a hole until he could calm down and not attack any of the party members. Reading the forum tho, I start to realize, that some people are not as lucky and have to rely on themselves a lot, which is sad.
I think a lot of people put a very high value on Will and Fortitude saves, the latter especially for classes that can expect to spend a lot of time in melee. Disease, poison etc all tend to pop up a lot more frequently for the characters who spend a lot of time standing next to the poisoned or diseased thing, and so those tend to need fortitude saves more than the guy standing in the back with a bow. I suspect this is at least partially why the swashbuckler saves were controversial.
I think will saves are so highly valued partially because they are important, but also because failing a will save tends to blow exponentially more than failing a reflex or even a fortitude save. You might be diseased and poisoned from failing fortitude saves and scorched from rolling a 2 on the fireball, but unless you're dead or unconscious you still get to sit at the table and act on your turn. Conversely if a Fear effect nails you and your character spends the next minute hustling away from the fight, that encounter is basically over for you - time to spend 30 minutes browsing reddit on your phone while everyone else have fun.
Speaking from experience on the last bit, ran into a Glabrezu and got hit by a Symbol of Stunning Power Word: Stun for 7 rounds. I had 97 HP. :(
Completely unrelated, but for the theoretical Pathfinder: Unshackled I'd love to see "Save or Condition" spells get tweaked to follow the Hold Person model. Offering a save each round would make Save-orSuck spells a lot less annoying.
I'm curious in general, going forward. How would you guys compare the Unchained rogue vs. the hypothetical regular CRB rogue that had a strong Will save progression? It's starting to sound like people here have a very high opinion of saves and would prefer the latter. Whereas, as someone who has played a good number of monks, I can't wait to use the Unchained monk, and as someone who has done a lot of thinking about the rogue, I would much prefer the Unchained rogue to the hypothetical Will save rogue I just mentioned.
One thing about all these Unchained classes is that actual play is going to reveal more than a read-through will. I'm looking forward to seeing how these classes turn out in everyone's games!
I think the new rogue got enough upgrades to replace a strong will save.
I don't have the book so I am going off of hearsay. Talents are improved. It can sneak attack even with concealment being involved. It can provide status affects. It gets something close to 3.5's skill tricks, and probably some other things I have not heard of. Will saves also don't seem like something that should be ingrained into the class, which is another problem with taking it away from the monk.The trade is not a bad one. I think the monk would have had less complaints had the improvements been better in other areas.
Short version: The rogue got direct upgrades. The monk got some tradeoffs that left it close to where it was before. <----I was assuming you were trying to find out why the rogue was getting less complaints.