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I think it would be really cool to see ultra rare spawns, like an ancient dragon, or a hugely powerful lich, world boss type mobs that once defeated drop unique items, artifacts that could be held by cities or groups. These would surely become coveted items that could be spoils of war.
Off the top of my head I'm thinking of a certain black bastard sword that's possessed by a demon that grants power to the wielder which grows as its used in combat. :D
Such unique items could become world quests as rumor of the bearers spread across the land, spawning a race to see who can organize a group large enough to defeat the creature and claim the item. Good stuff!
Goblin Squad Member
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I've seen these kinds of items create some great interaction. In another vein, I've seen RPed artifacts stir the pot nicely between guilds. In the case that comes to mind, the power of the item was totally role-played, but since the guilds involved all agreed to it's power and to RP accordingly, the item was as good as the real deal. It became an item that people coveted, killed each other over, and tried to hide once they possessed it.
In PFO, imagine a particular deity's role-played holy relic (not even truly magical...just revered by the deity's followers). Some parties would desire it for the profit they could make in ransoming it back to the religious order seeking it. Enemy's could attempt to procure the item out of spite or to desecrate it...perhaps even attempt to destroy it. Think of the poor schmuck who stumbles across it unknowingly and finds himself in the middle of that game of hide and seek. Great fun.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Im in agreement that having 'story items' as objectives for settlements/kingdoms to fight over would be a good thing. However, I think those items should be settlement/kingdom level factors and not player equippable. For example, the Thorncrown of Iomedae should not be usable by players, but if held by an appropriately aligned settlement/kingdom it would provide bonuses to that settlement/kingdom. Perhaps something along the lines of unlocking training for a specific Iomedae-related Prestige Class, as long as Paladin training is normally available in that settlement/kingdom.
As far as not being usable by players, my issue with it would be 1) balance and 2) RP immersion-breaking if suddenly we have dozens of Thorncrowns or the like being used in-game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Lee passingly mentions artifacts in NPC law enforcement in PC settlement?.
I seem to remember a discussion about Escalation Cycles that would result in Settlements gaining Artifacts, but I can't find it right now.
Lee passingly mentions artifacts in NPC law enforcement in PC settlement?.
I seem to remember a discussion about Escalation Cycles that would result in Settlements gaining Artifacts, but I can't find it right now.
Here it is..
it'll start suffering issues on getting resources, its development indexes will go down so it won't meet the requirements to build some structures, so players will have a real impetus to go deal with these threats and keep them from getting more and more powerful. Also, when an Escalation cycle has entered its end, when that threat has been dealt with, when you've reached the finale, like for example if you finally killed off most of the Goblins and you've dealt with the Goblin Shaman who is the second in command and you've destroyed some resources they needed and done a few others steps to really get the Goblins out of your hair, and then you go kill the Goblin Chief who only shows up at the end stage, once you kill him there will be a reward of an Artifact item which is a useful item for Settlements. It provides a permanent bonus to a Settlement for completing that Escalation cycle. So Settlements will want to go through different Escalation cycles. Not every Settlement can go through every Escalation cycle. For example, some of them may be alignment-locked, if there's an Escalation cycle that's all about helping the Knights of Iomedae you can only get that one if you work with that alliance and you're a Good Settlement.
Taken from this Thread
While I like the idea of settlement level artifacts, and I believe they should be unique ie. only 1 in the game at any one time. I would also like to see unique items of artifact power that can be used by a character.
They should be, and obviously will be, created, and monitored by the Devs so that their power can be artifact level without breaking the game balance.
Think of the implications a weapon like Stormbringer, and it's twin Mournblade would have on the game world. Everyone would want it! It's possessor would have massive power, but along with this power would be the curse of the weapon, never knowing when it may turn on its owner and become a lump of iron causing their death and its changing hands. Settlements would go to war to possess it, friends might decide they would rather own the sword then remain friends. I envision all kinds of RP fun! :D
Thinking about it, perhaps such artifacts would be better handled like an event run by the Devs. What I mean is its introduced into the game world with the intention that it would only remain in the game world for a limited time, say 1 month or even 3 months, so that when it vanishes, eventually another artifact could be found, like the hand of Vecna or something from Pathfinder lore. Better yet some artifact from the River Kingdoms lore. Top tier artifacts like these likely should be GM managed to prevent total madness from ensuing. :p
What do you all think?
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Goblin Squad Member
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In PnP PF I dont like the idea of artifacts being seeded into a campaign unless they form an integral part of the campaign because things can easily get out of hand and the focus becomes less about the story and more about the holy or unholy havoc the artifact is wreaking on the world. Ultimately no one wins when such a powerful item is carelessly thrown into the world (unless the idea is to rack up the highest tally of hp damage and monster kills possible). And taking away the shiny toy from the players is not going to go down well unless handled very well.
I would be against seeing any player wielded artifacts until some characters have reached at least the equivalent of 16th level if not 20th level. Implementing them true to the source material would just make them too unbalancing, especially in a classless system that can tailor the characters abilities to make the best use of the artifact. In my opinion, whatever 'cool' factor might be gained from having them in game is more than outweighed by the headaches that it would bring, not the least of which is balancing issues.
Escalations aside, Id prefer not to see any artifacts for many months, if not years, after OE. In the meantime we should be having plenty of fun learning to craft the most powerful magic items available. No sense in racing through the 'content' and ignoring all the fun and interesting steps along the way.
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Goblin Squad Member
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While I like the idea of settlement level artifacts, and I believe they should be unique ie. only 1 in the game at any one time. I would also like to see unique items of artifact power that can be used by a character.
They should be, and obviously will be, created, and monitored by the Devs so that their power can be artifact level without breaking the game balance.
Think of the implications a weapon like Stormbringer, and it's twin Mournblade would have on the game world. Everyone would want it! It's possessor would have massive power, but along with this power would be the curse of the weapon, never knowing when it may turn on its owner and become a lump of iron causing their death and its changing hands. Settlements would go to war to possess it, friends might decide they would rather own the sword then remain friends. I envision all kinds of RP fun! :D
Thinking about it, perhaps such artifacts would be better handled like an event run by the Devs. What I mean is its introduced into the game world with the intention that it would only remain in the game world for a limited time, say 1 month or even 3 months, so that when it vanishes, eventually another artifact could be found, like the hand of Vecna or something from Pathfinder lore. Better yet some artifact from the River Kingdoms lore. Top tier artifacts like these likely should be GM managed to prevent total madness from ensuing. :p
What do you all think?
Agree. I find it difficult to see how such "mighty artefacts" fit in, unless they are more rare than a dodo and/or as part of a McGuffin in a rare Dev-led story event with a possibly limited extent or time to really shake things up (ie motivation and effect of use).
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Goblin Squad Member
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I really like the idea of a settlement level artifacts.
Imagine a war starting over shards of the Shield of Aroden? Or some ancient artifact of Tar-Baphon? Perhaps some powerful relics from the time of Nex and Geb, or something from Irori's time as a mortal.
The most "common" of the unique artifacts could give a simple boost to income for the settlement to reflect supplicants traveling to the city to pay there respects.
Others could upgrade NPC guards from simple Warriors to Fighters or Paladins who have come to guard the holy relic of their faith. Perhaps an Anvil blessed by Torag will give a boost to all smith work in the settlement?
So many possibilities!
Any sort of artifact that can be used by a character should have a limited time that its in game, IMO.
Settlement level artifacts like Stephen discusses above, should be unique (only 1 per game world) so if you fight off two Goblin escalations you get two different artifacts.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I forget where I saw it or read it, could be mythology or perhaps even real, but every home, town, settlement or whatever has a "Corner Stone", and it is something of great superstition to have it defiled or lost to the possession of another individual or group. I'd be certain that these "corner stones" have led to blood feuds and even wars.
I know this may sound like a silly "capture the flag" type of scenario, but this is probably where the whole concept of capture the flag comes from.
I have little doubt Nihimon will pull the lore out from his limitless bag of holding lore tidbits.
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Goblinworks Lead Game Designer
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Right now we've got a plan for artifacts being a reward players can get for completing various PvE goals through our escalation system (which is effectively a system for how monsters invade and claim hexes unless the player deal with them by pursuing various quests and other activities). These artifacts provide permanent benefits to settlements once installed, but can be stolen if that settlement is sacked.
We'll be detailing more of the escalation system in a future blog post.
Right now we've got a plan for artifacts being a reward players can get for completing various PvE goals through our escalation system (which is effectively a system for how monsters invade and claim hexes unless the player deal with them by pursuing various quests and other activities). These artifacts provide permanent benefits to settlements once installed, but can be stolen if that settlement is sacked.
We'll be detailing more of the escalation system in a future blog post.
That's what I was hoping for. Sort of like the Relic system in DAOC, where the artifacts will give visible benefits to the settlement and or it's residents and also being prizes that can be taken by hook or by crook.
Sounds fun! :)
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Right now we've got a plan for artifacts being a reward players can get for completing various PvE goals through our escalation system (which is effectively a system for how monsters invade and claim hexes unless the player deal with them by pursuing various quests and other activities). These artifacts provide permanent benefits to settlements once installed, but can be stolen if that settlement is sacked.
We'll be detailing more of the escalation system in a future blog post.
Is that part of a theme of settlements where things that grant bonuses also make it easier or more attractive to attack the settlement?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I was thinking OP meant literally 1 off pieces of loot. Items that are literally unique. I can imagine that would start off a few wars.
Can you imagine being the thief who managed to sneak off with a one of a kind legendary weapon, and then blaming it on another kingdom.
O the possibilities.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There is a parallel discussion occurring right now in Being's thread concerning player-created dungeons. The thought is that no one would wish to have such dungeons generate imbalancing magical items, but what if these were unique, mundane (i.e. nonmagical) items. The thought is, these "artifacts" could be valued not only for their unique appearance, but for any role-played significance placed upon them. As I've said in that thread, all you need is one group valuing it to make it valuable to their opponents or even to an opportunistic third party.
Hobs is absolutely right. I come from Runescape, where useless, stupid-looking "party hats" are considered the height of fashion just because they're of limited quantity. A similar thing could happen in PFO.
The difference is that, since PFO offers methods other than trading to get what you want, things could get much more interesting. The owner of one of these items might hide out in an NPC settlement only for a gang of assassins to jump him anyways. It'd be close to suicide, but someone might still try, just for a shot at getting the item and escaping before the wardens catch up.
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Goblin Squad Member
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DeciusBrutus,
That would be why the ownership of such an item would be the proverbial double edged sword, especially if they provided real settlement perks that others might wish to possess. All the more reason to keep it hidden and out of sight or live in a very well protected settlement.
To explore the original idea more - that there could be unique settlement artifacts - could a settlement earn more than one of these items? If more than one exists, I'm sure the strongest settlements will eventually possess more than one, but would the settlement be able to benefit from more than one? Would you have a place in the settlement management window that you lock this artifact into or a physical place in the settlement, like the keystone of your front gate or a secret shrine tucked away in city hall, but there's only one slot per settlement? Or would the number of "artifact slots" increase with the size of your settlement? If a physical place, would it be a construction that only the skill 300 architect/mason/carpenter would be able to make with very rare materials (QL300 mats refined by SL300 refiners)?
Or instead, could the settlement-buffing artifact be craftable? Before you worry about flooding the market with them and thus reducing their rarity, here's a possibility...that the materials to make them are themselves extremely rare, even unique materials that are dropped into the world much the way the artifact itself would have been (very seldom and randomly selected, but being mats, in the rarest of nodes, which means they are found in the most dangerous of locations). By making the mats rarities in themselves, but requiring a number of them to construct one artifact, you draw out the search needed to find and construct such an item (making them even more rare), you involve more players with master level skills (another incentive to gain the best skills) and a wider variety of skills (so no one skill becomes the skill to have), and possessing these artifacts becomes more than a matter of having the largest army or the most adventurers to seek out and grab them. You would also likely create whole societies within settlements that dedicate part of their game time to studying and searching for the materials to construct the one they desire.
Oh, the possibilities...
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Goblin Squad Member
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The word 'artifact' is throwing me off because it refers to a specific category of magic items. Artifacts, as used in the core rules, should not be built by players. Theyre relics and items of power that usually involved one or more gods in their creation. Furthermore, many (if not most) of them are unique items. I wouldnt want to see them trivialised by seeing multiple copies of 'unique' items floating around. Regardless of how rare the component items are, eventually theyre going to become more common.
My preference would be:
1) Artifacts should only be dropped by escalation events or other large scale game events.
2) Each settlement should only be able to 'slot' one artifact. The slot should be unlocked, not automatic. The limit could be justified by either one artifact overshadowing the others (from a social/trade/pilgrimage perspective) or the magic of multiple artifacts interfering with each other (like the two ring maximum). The artifact boost should have a broad effect on the settlement.
3) Buildings within a settlement could slot their own 'boosts' like a magicly heated forge for the blacksmith or an elven harpist for the tavern/inn. The boosts are specific to the building. The 'power gap' between the highest level building boost and lowest level artifact should be significant.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Oberyn,
I actually thought to put in a disclaimer about that...loosely using the word artifact. Sorry I missed it.
My reasons for bringing up - what to call them now... - "unique crafted settlement enhancements" was twofold:
1. To give crafters, specifically those dealing with settlement construction, something very special to strive for. Certainly, helping to build a great settlement is exciting enough, but to then be able to acquire these unique materials and afford your settlement a buff that is likewise unique would be some crafters' life work.
2. To keep some of the best things in the game from always being found in the most difficult dungeons or obtained from the nastiest bosses. Some of us just don't play these games for combat, which "escalation events" would most likely require. Now, you did also include "large scale game events" which might not be combat specific, though I have yet to see any major MMO event that wasn't.
"Regardless of how rare the component items are, eventually they're going to become more common".
To this I would counter that the unique mats I'm suggesting get dropped into the game only once, just like your more traditional artifacts - perhaps in a special node or contained in a rare but regularly occurring QL300 node. So these would be something the GMs would place and make certain only one ever appeared in-game. Just imagine a miner finally reaching SL300, working his way into the most dangerous locale to dig the QL300 node and turning up this unique ore...like Charlie winning the golden ticket. But unlike traditional artifacts, it takes several of these unique mats to make the final product - the recipe for which may be another unique drop, more like you're suggesting (the result of a major escalation event or large scale game event).
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Oberyn: You forget that there are also Minor Artifacts, which multiple copies of DO exist.
One idea that minnmass and I had was there could be a few shards of the Shield of Aroden floating around. Obviously it should not be possible for all of the shards to be found, because having the shield would be a terrible idea.
Or would it?
Ok, here's my take on settlement level artifacts.
They are Not craft-able. They only drop from escalation bosses, or drop from dungeon bosses. Possible to also be gifted by a deity with one for some special act of devotion or other GM event.
A settlement should only be able to have 1 active at any time. I don't feel that a settlement should be able to just store others. That opens the door to settlements hoarding them which I don't think should be possible.
Such artifacts should Not be able to be put on the market for sale. Nothing prevents a player, or settlement from arranging a private sale however.
Each artifact is unique, only 1 of each type exists.
I think the artifacts should be placed within a case located in the main settlement administration building, think City Hall. I'm thinking the display case should be located maybe in the entrance hall of the building where everyone could see it. The case should be locked, likely trapped as well <g>. I know when EE starts building won't be able to be entered, hopefully they can change that during EE.
I'm feeling that when a settlement has an artifact in place, the bonus should extend to any building owned by the settlement within the hex so that constructs like farms and such could also receive benefits.
I can't wait to read the dev blog that details how settlements will obtain relics/artifacts and the implications.
Hopefully in PFO we don't see a monolithic alliance that holds most if not all the relics, to which no other kingdoms can do anything about due to their size/power. I'm pretty sure Ryan said somewhere that was one of the things he didn't want to carry over from EVE. It will be interesting to see how that can be prevented.
What would be cool to see, are rival kingdoms who go to war time and again to gain control of an artifact.
Oberyn,
I actually thought to put in a disclaimer about that...loosely using the word artifact. Sorry I missed it.
My reasons for bringing up - what to call them now... - "unique crafted settlement enhancements" was twofold:
1. To give crafters, specifically those dealing with settlement construction, something very special to strive for. Certainly, helping to build a great settlement is exciting enough, but to then be able to acquire these unique materials and afford your settlement a buff that is likewise unique would be some crafters' life work.
2. To keep some of the best things in the game from always being found in the most difficult dungeons or obtained from the nastiest bosses. Some of us just don't play these games for combat, which "escalation events" would most likely require. Now, you did also include "large scale game events" which might not be combat specific, though I have yet to see any major MMO event that wasn't.
"Regardless of how rare the component items are, eventually they're going to become more common".
To this I would counter that the unique mats I'm suggesting get dropped into the game only once, just like your more traditional artifacts - perhaps in a special node or contained in a rare but regularly occurring QL300 node. So these would be something the GMs would place and make certain only one ever appeared in-game. Just imagine a miner finally reaching SL300, working his way into the most dangerous locale to dig the QL300 node and turning up this unique ore...like Charlie winning the golden ticket. But unlike traditional artifacts, it takes several of these unique mats to make the final product - the recipe for which may be another unique drop, more like you're suggesting (the result of a major escalation event or large scale game event).
How about this...
Artifacts are dropped from escalation bosses. But Minor Artifacts, as Storm Weaver mentioned, could be crafted like your suggesting.
A few thoughts on created artifacts,
I'm still leaning toward only having 1 artifact active at any one time, but if the Devs like the idea of crafted minor artifacts with settlement level bonuses, perhaps having 1 artifact, and 1'minor artifact wouldn't be overpowering for a settlement to possess? That way settlements could pick and choose which types of benefits to have active based on what the settlement requires.
As far as how minor artifact recipes and mats would enter the game, I agree they should be very rare. Perhaps the mats could only enter the game world at certain times? Something cool might be to have times during the spring and winter equinox's when a portal between worlds opens allowing the rare mats to enter into our world. It could be set up where characters have to be at specific locations, maybe ancient ruins of a temple like building where an ancient alter type stone construction remains. Players must be at this location and place certain items on the alter, then at a set time the items would vanish in a flash, transported to another plane or dimension and in their place, the material (randomly rolled) used to create minor artifacts. (I wouldn't think the materials to totally make an artifact should all appear in one place). Perhaps there could be a couple of these ruins that players would discover eventually which would allow them to gather the rare materials).
I'll stop here to see what people think of this idea. I think it would be cool to have something settlements could work towards that would require crafters and adventurers.
I was thinking more along the lines of a relic being a required component in building a grand temple, which has specific benefits over a large temple. Eventually relics would become commodities-as with everything that more than 0% of players ever encounter.
What if certain relics, tied to certain deities could be used as cornerstones to build, or upgrade to a grand temple?
Kinda thinking that artifacts would drop from escalation bosses while relics could be drops from dungeon bosses? All pretty rare though.
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Goblin Squad Member
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.. snip ..
I think were thinking along the same lines and just having different viewpoints on the mechanics of it. I have some reservations with respect to the player-crafted artifacts by way of one-time world drops. Because this is an MMO, I generally prefer that crafting be available to all, regardless of when they started playing the game. It might be another matter if getting that one-time drop required a massive amount of effort by the whole CC/Settlement/Kingdom along the lines of opening the Gates of Ahn'Qiraj in WoW. Im not against your ideas, just playing devil's advocate on how to implement them.
.. snip ..
I actually had them in mind but dont I made it clear in my post. I fully expect the minor artifacts to be the ones that are obtainable for the most part. Im of the opinion that major artifacts should not be seeded/obtainable for a long time after OE, if at all. I like to maintain their mystery and reputation as 'world-shakers' rather than having a scenario like 'Oh you have the Hand of Vecna? Me too! Armwrestle?'
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Goblin Squad Member
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Oberyn,
Devils-advocate away...that's what the forums are here for. :)
I think these materials could work exactly like the events that drop your regular artifacts - made available at the end of some big event. What if the world event boss had a horn that you can now carve into something spectacular? Or ground up and added with something from last month's world event, makes a something spectacular. There would be a sticky situation...what if one settlement had ingredient "A" and another found ingredient "B"...both being required to craft the special settlement item. Let the negotiations or the war begin.
At the same time, I like the incredibly small but still wonderfully exciting chance that something special can be randomly found without all the world event level hooplah. Perhaps it's a unique material that will be only be available for a special period of time - say a week - and the challenge is finding the where it is. It's a big world. Finding just one of something in it should be quite the event in itself, especially if the GM caused it to spawn in some very difficult to reach location.