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Fellow gamers,
I am currently in the process of working on a Dark Sun conversion for Pathfinder. At present, I have just gone through the races portion of the conversion, and I have a few goals in mind for the rest of the setting. They are as follows:
- Remain (reasonably) true to the flavor of the Athasian setting while maintaining an appropriate game balance using the Pathfinder rules. Naturally, where the two ideas conflict, I will have to prioritize balance over flavor.
- Provide as many class options as possible; knowing that the Dark Sun setting only used certain classes, it is my goal to expand upon those options based upon what Pathfinder has made available to players. There are very few options that likely would not fit into the setting, such as Gunslingers, and certain class features would have to be altered in order to preserve setting flavor (such as adding in reasonable mechanics for defiler magic, restricting cleric domains, or restricting arcane spell lists).
- Provide enough setting information to be able to run a game set in the world of Athas, which would necessarily include some of the information relevant to the Rajaat and his Champions/Sorcerer-Kings, monsters of the tablelands, information on the city-states, etc...
- Polish the monetary, equipment and environmental systems to provide a workable frame in which to play.
- Place the default setting into the post-Tithian era, but provide some guidelines on play in the pre-Kalak's Assassination era, and the Cleansing Wars era.
- Obtain input from other gamers on how best to proceed (and possibly have people pitch in to help).
- Find full-colour pictures that best represent the Athasian world-setting.
As such, you can find a preview of the material that I'm working on here.
Please feel free to share your constructive comments.
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Will it include rules for the penalties of wearig metal armor or rules for random psychic abilities?
And I'm really curious as to how magic is going to work. Can't wait to see it.
Edit: unless I missed it, I'm disappointed in the lack of "cannibalistic" halflings. :)
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Will it include rules for the penalties of wearig metal armor or rules for random psychic abilities?
And I'm really curious as to how magic is going to work. Can't wait to see it.
Edit: unless I missed it, I'm disappointed in the lack of "cannibalistic" halflings. :)
It will include rules with penalties for wearing metal armour (it's getting hot in here!), and rules for random psychic abilities. I'm rather torn on this second point, because the Occult Adventures book isn't out yet and there's a ton of great material from Dreamscarred Press in Psionics Unleashed. I'm not sure if I want to go the Dreamscarred Press route, or wait for Psionics Unleashed to come out.
My current idea for defiler magic is a rather simplistic one, and it goes something like this...
Defiler magic, however, isn't going to play that way. You can cast spells normally, just like a preserver does, but if you apply metamagic, you can choose to let it not take up a higher spell slot. If you do that, you're going to leech life energy from the environment around you, which is what's going to cause areas of land to become defiled. There's going to be a hard-cap of being able to add metamagic to your spells up to twice your current spellcasting level in this fashion (a 3rd level sorcerer is able to apply metamagic to adjust spells up to 4th level, regardless of what level spell that they're casting, though they still only have access to 1st and 2nd level spells), and defiler magic is going to attract notice quickly.
It's also going to shift your alignment toward evil the more that you use it, and bleeding off the alignment shift is going to require acts of caring for the environment... That is at least until a shift actually happens. Once that happens, then you have to role-play a shift back to good or make some sort of atonement, just as you would do so in any other Pathfinder game, but you're still going to bear the stigma of being a defiler.
So... There's a relatively easy incentive to defile that any arcane caster can delve into if they so choose, and it shouldn't damage the system in a way that carries severe and unforeseen consequences.
Lastly, cannibalism is not a requirement for halflings, just as it wasn't a requirement in Advanced Dungeons & Dragons Dark Sun, but it is a viable option if you choose to play that way.
Best wishes!
Guess the latest update of Dark Sun would be the 4th edition books...it might be worth looking into, just to get some ideas for flavor and they probably did make some updated artwork of the races of dark sun.
I saw what they did with Dark Sun in 4th Edition and was not impressed at all. I'm looking to get back to the roots. That, and I don't want to get slapped on the wrist too hard with using artwork that belongs to Wizards of the Coast.
For what it's worth, if you're focused on trying to remain true to the 2E interpretation of Dark Sun, my vote is going with Dream Scarred Press for Psionics. Giving everyone the feat that allows you to use a lvl 0 psionic power would be easy enough and fit right in with the old rules.
I'm in love with it already. I'll definitey play test it for you if you like.
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Have you seen athas.org's 3.5 Dark Sun update? That was great. I really liked how they handled the Athasian Bard - I'd like to see the Dark Sun Trader make a comeback, too!
For what it's worth, if you're focused on trying to remain true to the 2E interpretation of Dark Sun, my vote is going with Dream Scarred Press for Psionics. Giving everyone the feat that allows you to use a lvl 0 psionic power would be easy enough and fit right in with the old rules.
I want to see what Paizo is able to offer before I make my final decision. For now, I have to work with what Dreamscarred Press has to offer, since it's the only complete material available.
Have you seen athas.org's 3.5 Dark Sun update? That was great. I really liked how they handled the Athasian Bard - I'd like to see the Dark Sun Trader make a comeback, too!
Not really... I've seen their 3.0 update. I was thinking that an archetype to the standard Bard class could probably work out really well (and still allow for people to play standard Bards on Athas if they wish) to fit in with the Athasian bards of old (circa 1991).
Also... Why are you keen on seeing the Trader make a comeback? It's something I hadn't specifically considered, so I'd like to know more.
Are you going to use the original rogue, the original rogue with updates from rogue glory, the rogue from unchained?
Since I haven't seen the unchained version yet, I recommend at least using the rogue glory version.
Are you going to use the original rogue, the original rogue with updates from rogue glory, the rogue from unchained?
Since I haven't seen the unchained version yet, I recommend at least using the rogue glory version.
My plan was to use the Rogue as Paizo has presented them, and as I don't have Pathfinder Unchained either, I can't say how that's going to alter my view on what's going on with the Rogue. I was not planning on using the Rogue from Rogue Glory, though. Sorry. There's going to be a lot of work going into this Conversion in the first place, without having to present multiple options for Rogue.
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Also... Why are you keen on seeing the Trader make a comeback? It's something I hadn't specifically considered, so I'd like to know more.
It's a different sort of PC class, another feature of Athasian quirkiness, that's all. It might be a kind of combination of Rogue, Cavalier, and EBERRON Artificer.
It's a different sort of PC class, another feature of Athasian quirkiness, that's all. It might be a kind of combination of Rogue, Cavalier, and EBERRON Artificer.
Also... Why are you keen on seeing the Trader make a comeback? It's something I hadn't specifically considered, so I'd like to know more.
Tell me more, please.
Preserver magic functions just like spells normally do in Pathfinder. If you want to cast a spell, you cast it. If you want to apply metamagic to it, it uses up a higher spell slot.
Defiler magic, however, isn't going to play that way. You can cast spells normally, just like a preserver does, but if you apply metamagic, you can choose to let it not take up a higher spell slot.
Thinking about this more, I'm not sure I like it. Casters are already the most powerful characters in the game. They could really use the "darksun debuff" so to say.
The original spell system had the defilers as the default caster, and you had to put in extra effort to not defile the world around you. However, I can't think of a way to really make it work any better than you did. Perhaps you should really emphasize that the "free meta magic" really is the most common casting system out there. Or make it so the preservers cast at -1 caster level or something.
I don't know; just generating ideas. What do you think?
Preserver magic functions just like spells normally do in Pathfinder. If you want to cast a spell, you cast it. If you want to apply metamagic to it, it uses up a higher spell slot.
Defiler magic, however, isn't going to play that way. You can cast spells normally, just like a preserver does, but if you apply metamagic, you can choose to let it not take up a higher spell slot.Thinking about this more, I'm not sure I like it. Casters are already the most powerful characters in the game. They could really use the "darksun debuff" so to say.
The original spell system had the defilers as the default caster, and you had to put in extra effort to not defile the world around you. However, I can't think of a way to really make it work any better than you did. Perhaps you should really emphasize that the "free meta magic" really is the most common casting system out there. Or make it so the preservers cast at -1 caster level or something.
I don't know; just generating ideas. What do you think?
While I understand that casters are pretty much the most powerful characters in the game, I am concerned about altering play balance between classes if I make Preservers cast a -1 caster level (which would be a huge nerf to Level 1 characters, though I could default start all characters at level 3, but I'm hoping to avoid doing that).
The original system actually stated that both preservers and defilers functioned as mages (the default wizard-type that did not specialise), though they could specialise if that is what you wished to do. The primary difference between the two classes as far as power levels were concerned was that defilers had an experience track that required lesser experience than standard wizards. They just grew in power quicker. That, and, of course, the fact that you defile the land as a defiler. Defilers achieved level 20 with 2,700,000 experience points, while perservers (and standard mages in second edition) achieved level 20 with 3,750,000 experience points.
So, neither defilers nor preservers were the default caster, and preservers didn't actually have to put in extra effort to not defile the world. Their spells were equally as effective. I am creating an artificial power differential in order to incentivise the use of defiler magic (and its accompanying drawbacks).
What are your thoughts on this?
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Tell me more, please.It's a different sort of PC class, another feature of Athasian quirkiness, that's all. It might be a kind of combination of Rogue, Cavalier, and EBERRON Artificer.
Also... Why are you keen on seeing the Trader make a comeback? It's something I hadn't specifically considered, so I'd like to know more.
Well, at this point, I'm not sure what more I could say short of actually designing the class.
Well, at this point, I'm not sure what more I could say short of actually designing the class.Tell me more, please.It's a different sort of PC class, another feature of Athasian quirkiness, that's all. It might be a kind of combination of Rogue, Cavalier, and EBERRON Artificer.
Also... Why are you keen on seeing the Trader make a comeback? It's something I hadn't specifically considered, so I'd like to know more.
Perhaps you would be so kind as to provide me with the book it's referenced in so that I can go read up on it myself. If you could, that would be greatly appreciated. :)
Preserver magic functions just like spells normally do in Pathfinder. If you want to cast a spell, you cast it. If you want to apply metamagic to it, it uses up a higher spell slot.
Defiler magic, however, isn't going to play that way. You can cast spells normally, just like a preserver does, but if you apply metamagic, you can choose to let it not take up a higher spell slot.Thinking about this more, I'm not sure I like it. Casters are already the most powerful characters in the game. They could really use the "darksun debuff" so to say.
The original spell system had the defilers as the default caster, and you had to put in extra effort to not defile the world around you. However, I can't think of a way to really make it work any better than you did. Perhaps you should really emphasize that the "free meta magic" really is the most common casting system out there. Or make it so the preservers cast at -1 caster level or something.
I don't know; just generating ideas. What do you think?
While I understand that casters are pretty much the most powerful characters in the game, I am concerned about altering play balance between classes if I make Preservers cast a -1 caster level (which would be a huge nerf to Level 1 characters, though I could default start all characters at level 3, but I'm hoping to avoid doing that).
The original system actually stated that both preservers and defilers functioned as mages (the default wizard-type that did not specialise), though they could specialise if that is what you wished to do. The primary difference between the two classes as far as power levels were concerned was that defilers had an experience track that required lesser experience than standard wizards. They just grew in power quicker. That, and, of course, the fact that you defile the land as a defiler. Defilers achieved level 20 with 2,700,000 experience points, while perservers (and standard mages in second edition) achieved level 20 with 3,750,000...
The extra XP cost was what I referring to when I said "extra effort." I even considered putting that in parentheses, but I figured it would be obvious. Guess not. :)
However, since xp disparity is a thing of the past, I was trying to come up with a way to simulate that with power level. Also, while I could be wrong here, I remember feeling that martial characters were a lot more powerful. Maybe it's because of the "starting at 3rd level" thing that gave that feel; I'm not sure. I mean, I haven't played the system since the 90s, so my memory can be significantly off. And maybe it was just my GM, but I also remember casters not being liked in darksun and that the defilers were more common (and the defilers being the reason caster weren't liked). Is this true in the system?
The extra XP cost was what I referring to when I said "extra effort." I even considered putting that in parentheses, but I figured it would be obvious. Guess not. :)
However, since xp disparity is a thing of the past, I was trying to come up with a way to simulate that with power level. Also, while I could be wrong here, I remember feeling that martial characters were a lot more powerful. Maybe it's because of the "starting at 3rd level" thing that gave that feel; I'm not sure. I mean, I haven't played the system since the 90s, so my memory can be significantly off. And maybe it was just my GM, but I also remember casters not being liked in darksun and that the defilers were more common (and the defilers being the reason caster weren't liked). Is this true in the system?
In all fairness, Preservers did not have an extra experience point cost associated with their class. They have the exact same experience point track as all second edition wizards. Defilers got roughly a 30% discount in experience. Not receiving a discount is not the same as having an extra cost. I know it's probably a moot point, but I do prefer the clarity.
Martial characters felt a lot more powerful because of a few reasons. First, there were some differences in the races; they get heftier bonuses and some racial abilities that helped to even the playing field. Second, starting things off at third level brought martial characters more in line with power levels, as second edition D&D approached equivalence in the mid-level ranges.
To answer your question, casters were not liked very much because everyone was thought of as a defiler. Defilers were actually less common than preservers in the setting, but that was mostly because the sorcerer-kings didn't like anyone destroying their lands, so they were often hunted down as fast as they cropped up. That, and no sorcerer-king wanted an arcane caster competing with them for power. So... For the sins of the sorcerer-kings centuries before, all arcane casters suffered as they all bore the blame for the state of the world.
In my conversion, the same is going to hold true. All arcane casters are reviled and hunted, and preservers are going to be more common than defilers because they can largely operate "under the radar" (as in, they don't leave patches of defiled land in their wake). Arcane spellcasting in public is going to put you on the naughty list, and templars and their ilk will be looking for you to resolve the matter. Divine spellcasting is more limited, as you're going to be worshiping the elements and natural phenomena, but that doesn't make it any less powerful.
Exercise caution. The world really is out to get you.
Best wishes!
Yes! Now that's the Darksun I remember and love.
Your explanation and description of the defilers and preservers has sold me. I agree that the loss of a caster level would be too much, and keeping in line with the "bonus XP track" so to speak, I think the free meta magic may fit well.
Question: would any given caster be able to switch back and forth between a defiler and a preserver? Say, choosing to defile the land for the reduced cost of meta magic? This makes it a tactical desicion. Or would they be completey separate (like an archetype), where once you choose it at 1st level, then that's it for the rest of your casting career? A third option would be to make it so you always start as a preserver, and have the option to choose to defile the land with your meta magic, but once you do you can never go back.
Yes. Now that's the Darksun I remember and love.
Your explanation and description of the defilers and preservers has sold me. I agree that the loss of a caster level would be too much, and keeping in line with the "bonus XP track" so to speak, I think the free meta magic may fit well.
Question: would any given caster be able to switch back and forth between a defiler and a preserver? Say, choosing to defile the land for the reduced cost of meta magic? This makes it a tactical desicion. Or would they be completey separate (like an archetype), where once you choose it at 1st level, then that's it for the rest of your casting career? A third option would be to make it so you always start as a preserver, and have the option to choose to defile the land with your meta magic, but once you do you can never go back.
The third option is actually exactly where I was going with it.
The idea is that everyone is a preserver. You learn magic (unless you specifically had a defiler as a teacher and they were willing to "initiate" you right away) and then you can figure out how to "cheat" your way through spellcasting. There's no special feat to pick up, you just choose to do things the "easy" way and bam! You're a defiler now, even if only you know it. It's doubtful that you're going to keep that a secret for too long.
Once you're neutral, you accumulate "defiler points" that don't go away on their own. Once you hit a certain threshold, your alignment shifts to evil (or if you're already evil, nothing happens). If you want to remove one defiler point, you have to perform an act of atonement (yes, this will be a change in how the spell works on Athas). You gain a number of defiler points equal to the modified level of the spell you cast, so if you cast a quickened fireball, you're going to accrue 7 points. That's 7 atonements to wipe your slate clean (plus a whole lot of environmental damage).
Once you're evil, as a defiler, you've got a lot to atone for to even hope to be redeemed. That's a lot of atonement spells with a lot of work going into preserving the land. Of course, if you don't care about atonement, then go right ahead and be evil. It probably won't bother you that you're defiling the land anyway. Yes, I'm aware that it's additional bookkeeping, but it shouldn't be so much that it's unbearable, and I don't want defiling to poison your soul too quickly or have it become undone too easily.
You make the choice to defile or not with every spell that you cast. Then again, there will be ways to break out of the preserver/defiler dynamic, but those are going to be few, far between, and epic adventures.
Best wishes!
Love it.
As I recall defiling was a choice rather than a special ability. Any arcane caster can defile, it's the way magic works. Technically even preservers are using defiling magic every time they cast, drawing life force from plant life to power their spells. They just know how to take a little bit from a lot of plants to fuel their magic rather than drawing in everything that they can get.
So I would rule all arcane casters of all archetypes can defile if they want to. Archetypes might allow for other kinds of defiling though. Like using Obsidian to defile people and animals rather than plants.
The only question I have if how do you determine the area of defiled when defiling? I never felt that anyone ever got that right when doing conversions.
Also I strongly support a Trader conversion, it is a niche that is basically untouched in Pathfinder classes.
I think that the fragile weapon rules in Ultimate Combat should be used extensively. If I remember my Dark Sun right, iron weapons tended to be the kind of thing that only really rich people had.
Also, I think there could be cool ways to integrate some of the Pathfinder-introduced classes.
- I can imagine that the science of alchemy probably survived, meaning that some Alchemists and Investigators are around. I'd imagine that like arcane magic, the Sorcerer-Kings probably regulate it. Maybe not as heavily, considering it doesn't consume life-force like arcane magic does, but you probably need an official license to practice alchemy in any of the City States.
- Cavaliers probably ride kanks instead of horses. Their Orders could also be easily integrated. There's probably a Templar-Aligned order in at least one of the cities (probably Uruk. Order of the Lion, y'know), with another as an arm of the Veiled Alliance.
- Inquisitors, as you have mentioned, make great Templar stand-ins.
- Oracles could play similar roles to Clerics. Their curses could be played up as the effect of being sun-warped.
- Witches could have numerous patrons. Perhaps one of the Sorcerer-Kings has been training a corps of Spellcasters in secret for the inevitable conflict with another City-State. Perhaps there are things in the desert that whisper these secrets to the desperate.
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For a 3.5 conversion of Dark Sun that you could grab to aid you in putting this project together for Pathfiner go Here.
Thank you for the link, JonathonWilder. I've been reading it for a while, and I'm not quite sure just how much help it's going to be, but I'm grateful to have it.
For defiling I like to keep it simple.
Defiling is normal spellcasting.
If you wish to preserve then you must take a move action immediately before spellcasting to do so. No check is needed, but the spellcasting must be done immediately after the preserve move action or the effect is lost.
If defiling, the amount of land defiled is a number of squares (25 square feet) per spell level. Use the final spell level if including meta magic or other modifiers.
For other stuff, I was riffing some ideas about the bard class. In AD&D they were poisoners instead of spellcasters.
My idea is to let them keep the spells known and spells cast tables. They can use these as normal for bardic masterpieces. Also they can use the slots known as poisons known, and the spells per day as poisons per day. You would have to assign levels to the existing poison types. Also you would have to decide if you wanted use the existing poison DCs or use the 10+level+Cha modifier formula.
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For defiling I like to keep it simple.
Defiling is normal spellcasting.
If you wish to preserve then you must take a move action immediately before spellcasting to do so. No check is needed, but the spellcasting must be done immediately after the preserve move action or the effect is lost.
If defiling, the amount of land defiled is a number of squares (25 square feet) per spell level. Use the final spell level if including meta magic or other modifiers.
For other stuff, I was riffing some ideas about the bard class. In AD&D they were poisoners instead of spellcasters.
My idea is to let them keep the spells known and spells cast tables. They can use these as normal for bardic masterpieces. Also they can use the slots known as poisons known, and the spells per day as poisons per day. You would have to assign levels to the existing poison types. Also you would have to decide if you wanted use the existing poison DCs or use the 10+level+Cha modifier formula.
I think I'm going to go with the method that I listed previously for determining whether spellcasting is preserver magic or defiler, but I thank you for the suggestion. I do like the rubric about defiler magic defiling a specific number of squares per spell level, so I might very well use a modification of that.
I also agree that bards in Dark Sun were poisoners, rather than spellcasters. To that end, I have set up a rudimentary replacement for their spellcasting called "Master of Poisons", which grants a number of benefits. I invite you to review it to see if there's anything that I'm overlooking. I just finished writing it a few minutes ago and haven't playtested it yet.
Master of Poisons: Knowledgeable in both the use and manufacture of poisons, bards are masters of their use. Very deliberate in their use of poisons, bards never risk poisoning themselves accidentally. Additionally, as a part of their training, bards take care to build up an immunity to their own toxins, so a bard can never suffer any ill effects of their own poisons. This does not, however, give them any immunity to poisons that another bard may have crafted. They may also manufacture any poisons they know at half cost.
Starting at 1st level, a bard gains a +1 competence bonus to Craft (Alchemy) checks to create poisons. This bonus increases by 1 for every three bard levels thereafter, to a maximum of +7 at 19th level.
At 4th level, the bard gains a +4 luck bonus on saves versus poisons. At 9th level, this upgrades to an immunity to all poisons.
At 8th level, the bard gains access to master poisons. These supernatural poisons are not able to be resisted or cured by nonmagical means, though immunity to poisons still applies to these master poisons. They can only be cured via magical means, such as the neutralize poison spell, or a paladin’s mercy. The bard may choose one master poison at 8th level, and one additional master poison every four levels thereafter, to a maximum of four master poisons at 20th level. Each poison takes one round to create, and there is no cost to create them. The bard can use these master poisons (3 + Charisma modifier) times per day, though if the bard fails to craft the poison that they are attempting, it still consumes one use of this ability, and these poisons do not keep well. They completely lose their potency after twelve hours and break down into water and unidentifiable extracts that cannot be replicated.
Lastly, at 20th level, an Athasian bard is able to craft a master poison so potent, that not even immunity to poisons can protect against it. This master poison can be used only once per day, and it completely ignores any bonuses or immunities that the victim has to poisons. It otherwise functions like any other master poison.
This ability replaces the bard’s spellcasting abilities.
Name/Type/Fort DC/Onset//Effect
Blossomkiller Extract/Injury/25/1d4 rounds//The target is paralyzed for 1 hour.
Disorientation Dust/Contact/18/2d4 rounds//The target is confused, as per the confusion spell.
Fright Toxin Injury/21/1 round//Target gains the frightened condition for 1 round.
Mindwarp Oil/Ingested/24/10 minutes//The target gains a +10 DC penalty to spellcaster or psionicist’s concentration checks for 1 minute.
Obsidian Spores/Inhaled/10 + the bard’s level/Immediate//The target takes 2d4 points of damage.
Poisonweed Pollen/Contact/26/10 minutes//The target is rendered unconscious for 1 hour.
Voicestealer Mist/Inhaled/20/Immediate//Renders the target silent.
Whispering Wine/Ingested/10 + the bard’s level/1 round//The target is charmed, as per the charm monster spell.
(Special note: The DCs for the various master poisons are intended to make it extremely difficult for spells to cure and for bards to make in the first place if they're too low of a level.)
I think I'm going to go with the method that I listed previously for determining whether spellcasting is preserver magic or defiler, but I thank you for the suggestion. I do like the rubric about defiler magic defiling a specific number of squares per spell level, so I might very well use a modification of that.
I would modify the area based on the amount of vegetation in the area. Barren and lightly vegetated region would add a multiplier to the area defiled.
As for Athasian Bards, I've seen suggestion of using Slayers to take their place. Cutting the magic out of Bards is a big deal and hard to balance, while making smaller adjustments to a non-magical class would be easier to work with.
I think I'm going to go with the method that I listed previously for determining whether spellcasting is preserver magic or defiler, but I thank you for the suggestion. I do like the rubric about defiler magic defiling a specific number of squares per spell level, so I might very well use a modification of that.I would modify the area based on the amount of vegetation in the area. Barren and lightly vegetated region would add a multiplier to the area defiled.
As for Athasian Bards, I've seen suggestion of using Slayers to take their place. Cutting the magic out of Bards is a big deal and hard to balance, while making smaller adjustments to a non-magical class would be easier to work with.
Oh, I was definitely going to modify based upon the amount of vegetation in the area.
So... Slayers, you say? I'm not 100% sold on that, since they don't fit into the thematic niche that Athasian bards did (primarily as entertainers). It's not an awful idea, but it does leave that hole... I do agree that it's a lot easier to make small adjustments to a class that doesn't have any spellcasting. That's a given. It's why I was hoping to get a little bit of constructive commentary on the Master of Poisons bit.
Of course, I was also considering allowing Bards to still cast cantrips, but that seemed like such a waste, and I certainly don't want them casting arcane spells in any case. Just say no to defiler-bards!
As there are no gods, per se, on Athas, the selection of deities for clerics to worship is quite limited. Instead, they worship the elements and the natural world. As such, clerics choose one domain or subdomain from the following list and one other domain or subdomain of their choosing from.
Required Domains & Subdomains: Air, Ash, Caves, Cloud, Day, Earth, Fire, Ice, Light, Metal, Rivers, Smoke, Sun, Water or Wind.
Weapons are also somewhat problematic, as there are no deities to have favoured weapons for. Therefore, the following weapon choices are available as favoured weapons based upon the character’s domain:
Air Domain: Weapons that were designed to be fired from range or thrown are suitable weapons for clerics that worship the element of air. This includes bow (any), blowgun, chakram, crossbow (any) dagger, dart, hunga munga, javelin, poison belcher, sling, spear (any), stingchuck, or throwing axe.
Earth Domain: Weapons made primarily of wood, metal or stone are acceptable favoured weapons for clerics that worship the earth. As such, earth clerics are typically the best armed.
Fire Domain: Clerics that worship the element of fire rely upon weapons that are flaming. Favoured weapons include flaming arrows, burning oil, and magical weapons enchanted to burn or scald. Heating metal weapons to cause searing damge is another acceptable, if expensive and impractical, practice for fire clerics. Also, because it was once fused under great heat and pressure, weapons made of obsidian are also considered to be favoured weapons for fire clerics.
Sun Domain: The strongest of the elements, the sun both gives life and bears down upon it until it withers away. As such, weapons made of wood, or flaming weapons are allowed as favoured weapons of sun clerics.
Water Domain: Water is the life-giver; the originator of everything that grows. It is the ebb and flow of existence on Athas, and its most precious resource. Weapons of organic origin - usually wood or bone - are considered favoured weapons to water clerics. They may use bows, clubs, maces, javelins, quarterstaffs, spears, and warhammers.
A special note on Sun Clerics: The class abilities and spells of clerics of the sun normally operate as though the character was one character level higher during daylight hours. However, if the character is underground, if it is during a storm, or if the sun has gone down, their class abilities and spells operate as though they were two character levels lower for the duration, minimum 1st level. There is a special magical tattoo that sun clerics can acquire on their foreheads that mitigates some of the disability, allowing them to operate instead as if their character level was only one level lower - this sun tattoo costs 3,000 ceramic pieces to inscribe, and although it is placed upon the brow of the cleric, it requires a free hand to touch the tattoo in order to work.
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There is this write up of the Athasian Bard that I like.
Also, with this, is the Templar class from the same site.
They even have rules for defiling which may be of interest.
Was thinking a bit about the classes in the setting, and I think that Sorcerers would probably be extremely rare if not near extinct. Preserving when casting a spell actually takes training and very real effort. A young sorcerer with no understanding of their own would be defiling by default, unable to even control their power, and very obvious to those around them long before they can really defend themselves. If sorcerers are a thing they are likely executed long before they can even earn their first class level. If you include Bloodragers they would basically be in the same kind of situation.
Just worth thinking about.
Was thinking a bit about the classes in the setting, and I think that Sorcerers would probably be extremely rare if not near extinct. Preserving when casting a spell actually takes training and very real effort. A young sorcerer with no understanding of their own would be defiling by default, unable to even control their power, and very obvious to those around them long before they can really defend themselves. If sorcerers are a thing they are likely executed long before they can even earn their first class level. If you include Bloodragers they would basically be in the same kind of situation.
Just worth thinking about.
I do think that it's worth thinking about, and you've brought up a very valid point.
There is some wiggle-room, I believe, in the enrichment (most people call it "fluff") text of the sorcerer entry. It talks about how some sorcerers choose to control their abilities through meditation and discipline, while others give into the magic and let it rule their lives.
Here are my (current) thoughts on the matter:
- I'm setting "preserver" as the "default" state for this setting. Frankly, it solves a few problems. Finding paths to power that are harmful or dangerous have ever been something that people either deliberately seek out, or stumble upon. We know as much from both human history and from our literature. Learning to wield power, little by little, is a pretty common element of much of the literature that deals with the arcane (or quite a few other things, for that matter). Cantrips wouldn't inherently defile the land, and I'm pretty sure that it's reasonable to assume that any arcane caster learns how to cast cantrips before moving on to first-level spells as a part of their training to become an arcane caster (somewhat supported by the additional age at which summoners, witches and wizards start at above the minimum starting age; yes, I'm aware that it's less for sorcerers). Therefore, casting cantrips would either inherently make you a defiler (I am assuming that you're not drawing enough magical juice from the environment for that, given that you can cast them freely, and you don't have any metamagic feats before taking the first level of a class, which is not the beginning of your journey toward having that class, either mechanically or thematically), or you must, naturally, be a preserver by default.
- Generally speaking, preservers are going to be able to fly "under the radar" because unless there's a direct witness to the magic as it is cast, there is no direct evidence that an arcane caster was present. Defilers... Not so much. When you leave blasted patches of scorched earth behind as you cast a spell, people are going to take notice, and some of the entities that take notice will be sorcerer-kings looking to squash the little guys playing on their "turf", as it were.
- I think that sorcerers could "naturally" work as preservers as well, but some "discover" that they can draw more energy from the land (in the case of what I plan to do, by applying metamagics to their spells and not paying for them) and defile the land in the process.. Thusly, sorcerers need not be defilers by default. They can learn to wield their magics by taking a little energy from the earth and playing with it. If a player wishes to start the game as a defiler and have it be part of their back-story that they've defiled before, that's their right. Whether they choose to defile or not during game-play is entirely up to them.
- I may have to restrict certain sorcerer bloodlines that may not fit in with the setting, but I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.
You've certainly given me food for thought, and I thank you for helping me to refine my thoughts on the matter.
Best wishes!
Well if you're looking for food for thought and using Dreamscarred Press psionics you might want to put some serious thought into the Aegis and Soulknife classes. Both classes, at a glance look nice, but would be highly sought after training as the offer easy access to weapons and armor that are quite a bit better that the stone and obsidian weapons one normally finds in Athas. The metal equivalent weapons and armor quickly upgrade to magical quality, the Aegis and Soulknife would likely quickly become dominate fighting techniques on Athas.
I'm leaning away from using the Dreamscarred Press materials, actually, for that very reason. I know that those classes were used in previous conversions, but untangling those problems may be more trouble than they're worth.
As it stands, I am currently through the following Core Classes (I've been picking at it here and there today):
- Barbarian
- Bard
- Cleric
- Druid
- Fighter
- Monk
- Paladin
- Ranger
Thankfully, material to convert so far has been relatively minor. Spell lists are going to be a bear, though...
I would just leave out the Aegis and perhaps the Soulknife too.
The rest of Ultimate Psionics is very much fit for Dark Sun!
And pretty good too.
I would also strongly consider the Psionic Beastiary.
At the very least the Psionics is a solid fit for Dark Sun. Most of the other classes fit pretty well too. I don't particularly care for healer classes like the Vitalist but some of the archetypes for Athas pretty well.
Heck, if you just limit it to Psion, Wilder, and Psychic Warrior you shouldn't have any problems though you would lose out on a lot of cool stuff.
That's why I'm wary of putting in the Cryptic, Dread, Marksman, Psion, Psychic Warrior, Tactician, Vitalist and Wilder classes, minus the Aegis and Soulknife. I don't want to leave out huge chunks of material, mostly because it's cool. However, to only remove the "problematic" classes, that means that I'm still converting 8 classes over (or 3, if I'm limiting things down to Psion, Wilder & Psychic Warrior only, which is far less work), but then I've cut out significant chunks of material, and there will always be players that want to play with cool materials anyway.
If I put out a preliminary document without psionics in it in anticipation of Occult Adventures, that would be okay, but I really do want to include psionics. I could go with the Occult Adventures Playtest materials, which would have me convert 6 classes and not leave anything out. I recognise that it's incomplete materials, and I'd have to do an update in July when Occult Adventures comes out.
Dreamscarred Press put out some really awesome materials (which I do recognise are carry-overs from D&D 3.0/3.5), and I do not intend to downplay their work in the slightest. Cutting out portions of their work is distasteful to me, plus I have the feeling that fans might be clamoring for Paizo's classes (Kineticist, Medium, Mesmerist, Occultist, Psychic and Spiritualist) once they're released anyway.
So... Right now, I'm not entirely sure how I am going to proceed, but I haven't gotten to the psionic classes just yet, so I've got a little time.
Occult adventures is not being psionics. It will be very different.
Ultimate Psionics is more or less the same psionics that were in the old settings. They already mostly fit in. There isn´t that much new stuff or things you need to convert for Athas. At least not in my experience.
I would rather wait with Occult adventures untill that is out. Pretty sure some things will change there.
Also in your case, i would definately wait untill the end of the month when Unchained is out. I believe the wait for a Dark Sun Conversion will pretty well be worth it.
I'm aware that Occult Adventures isn't completely dedicated to psionics, but it is partially so. I'm okay with the fact that it's going to be different, as Pathfinder is a different game from D&D 3.0/3.5.
In any case, once I handle the core classes, I have to move on to the base classes, so it's going to be a little while until I get to any of it anyway. As for Unchained... It remains to be seen just how much it's going to affect things. I might imagine that the rogue, in particular, might look quite different.
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Ultimate combat has rules for piecemeal armor, bone weapons and the like. A difficult part of creating dark sun will be figuring out the economy. If I recall they used clay tokens for money, which could be split into wedges for smaller denominations. Normal items will be made of bone, leather, and obsidian. Wood and metal items are extremely expensive and rare. The game balance may also be a bit trickier as, if you are trying to stay true to the setting, players will have a lot less wealth and magic/magic items at their disposal.
I currently am running a Dark Sun campaign with Pathfinder rules.
The campaign info tab has info on what we used for races, classes, defiling, weapon and armor break rules and more.
Now the documents are not meant to be a 'conversion' but simply to support the campaign, which is what I'm mostly interested in but they could help.
Let me know if you have any questions in particular.
Game on!
Thank you, Fabian. That looks like it will be a very helpful resource for me!
For those interested: I have completed the core classes and roughly three pages on what defiler magic does. It's got some similarities to what went on in 3.0/3.5, but also some differences. It started out as significantly different, but the sense of how things worked before caused me to use some of the terminology and ideas from the way it functioned before both out of convenience, and because they really do make sense.
There are parts of the older material that I didn't use, and don't plan on using.
Next, I tackle base classes!
Best wishes!
For defiling I like to keep it simple.
Defiling is normal spellcasting.
If you wish to preserve then you must take a move action immediately before spellcasting to do so. No check is needed, but the spellcasting must be done immediately after the preserve move action or the effect is lost.
If defiling, the amount of land defiled is a number of squares (25 square feet) per spell level. Use the final spell level if including meta magic or other modifiers.
For other stuff, I was riffing some ideas about the bard class. In AD&D they were poisoners instead of spellcasters.
My idea is to let them keep the spells known and spells cast tables. They can use these as normal for bardic masterpieces. Also they can use the slots known as poisons known, and the spells per day as poisons per day. You would have to assign levels to the existing poison types. Also you would have to decide if you wanted use the existing poison DCs or use the 10+level+Cha modifier formula.
I think I'm going to go with the method that I listed previously for determining whether spellcasting is preserver magic or defiler, but I thank you for the suggestion. I do like the rubric about defiler magic defiling a specific number of squares per spell level, so I might very well use a modification of that.
I also agree that bards in Dark Sun were poisoners, rather than spellcasters. To that end, I have set up a rudimentary replacement for their spellcasting called "Master of Poisons", which grants a number of benefits. I invite you to review it to see if there's anything that I'm overlooking. I just finished writing it a few minutes ago and haven't playtested it yet.
** spoiler omitted **...
This class does not really say "bard" to me at all. I like the concept, but it seems like an entirely different class. I think it is better as a new class or an arcetype of the rogue or slayer.
I'm leaning away from using the Dreamscarred Press materials, actually, for that very reason. I know that those classes were used in previous conversions, but untangling those problems may be more trouble than they're worth.
As it stands, I am currently through the following Core Classes (I've been picking at it here and there today):
- Barbarian
- Bard
- Cleric
- Druid
- Fighter
- Monk
- Paladin
- Ranger
Thankfully, material to convert so far has been relatively minor. Spell lists are going to be a bear, though...
Paladins in Dark Sun?
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I believe it was established on at least one of the Dark Sun books that there are no paladins in Dark Sun, that any that would have existed would have been killed off long ago. The rulers that be and their templars wouldn't want such individuals causing any problems.
It would also not really work as well since the morality of the setting is a bit skewed given how what has become important to most people is survival and more considerations are secondary to such and would be considered impractical or foolish most often. Then lets not forget that if a paladin did exist they would essentially be criminals and renegades fighting against the corrupt and evil dragon rulers which have taken power.
For defiling I like to keep it simple.
Defiling is normal spellcasting.
If you wish to preserve then you must take a move action immediately before spellcasting to do so. No check is needed, but the spellcasting must be done immediately after the preserve move action or the effect is lost.
If defiling, the amount of land defiled is a number of squares (25 square feet) per spell level. Use the final spell level if including meta magic or other modifiers.
For other stuff, I was riffing some ideas about the bard class. In AD&D they were poisoners instead of spellcasters.
My idea is to let them keep the spells known and spells cast tables. They can use these as normal for bardic masterpieces. Also they can use the slots known as poisons known, and the spells per day as poisons per day. You would have to assign levels to the existing poison types. Also you would have to decide if you wanted use the existing poison DCs or use the 10+level+Cha modifier formula.
I think I'm going to go with the method that I listed previously for determining whether spellcasting is preserver magic or defiler, but I thank you for the suggestion. I do like the rubric about defiler magic defiling a specific number of squares per spell level, so I might very well use a modification of that.
I also agree that bards in Dark Sun were poisoners, rather than spellcasters. To that end, I have set up a rudimentary replacement for their spellcasting called "Master of Poisons", which grants a number of benefits. I invite you to review it to see if there's anything that I'm overlooking. I just finished writing it a few minutes ago and haven't playtested it yet.
** spoiler omitted **...
Why not make the bard more like an information broker and keeper of secrets (selling those secrets to the highest bidder), a la mass effect? There is some precendent behind the idea.
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Why not make the bard more like an information broker and keeper of secrets (selling those secrets to the highest bidder), a la mass effect? There is some...
Seems great minds think alike, I already offered a link to that conversion of the Athasian Bard.