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This class does not really say "bard" to me at all. I like the concept, but it seems like an entirely different class. I think it is better as a new class or an arcetype of the rogue or slayer.
Bards were, in second edition Dark Sun, very much poisoners. It was a huge part of their class concept. While I understand that you feel that it belongs as an archetype of rogue or slayer, it is very true to the source material for them to be poisoners.
Paladins in Dark Sun?
Believe it or not, there is precedence. It's small, I'll grant you, but they were allowed in 3.0/3.5. It's not something I would encourage people to play in a Dark Sun campaign, but I won't want to exclude things just because they might be difficult to play.
I believe it was established on at least one of the Dark Sun books that there are no paladins in Dark Sun, that any that would have existed would have been killed off long ago. The rulers that be and their templars wouldn't want such individuals causing any problems.
It would also not really work as well since the morality of the setting is a bit skewed given how what has become important to most people is survival and more considerations are secondary to such and would be considered impractical or foolish most often. Then lets not forget that if a paladin did exist they would essentially be criminals and renegades fighting against the corrupt and evil dragon rulers which have taken power.
There were no paladins in the second edition Dark Sun setting, it's true. There also were no monks, but not just because the setting said so. The only references to paladins in the original setting material were...
and
Then Agis of Asticles was written, and so were pyreen, and avangions, and the whole idea that no one could serve good and right for the simple rewards of inner peace and faith were kind of blown out of the water.
However, paladins actually do work, believe it or not. It's just that not everyone has the temperament and willpower to become one. Paladins in Dark Sun certainly could not be murderhobos; sorcerer-kings would squash that pretty quickly. Still, they can be a minor thorn in a sorcerer-king's side if played well.
For all of these reasons, I decided to go with allowing paladins in the conversion.
Why not make the bard more like an information broker and keeper of secrets (selling those secrets to the highest bidder), a la mass effect? There is some precendent behind the idea.
I might include that as part of a bard's role. I feel that the loss of spellcasting is so significant that bards need quite a bit of other things to preserve balance. I've already re-written the bard from the version that I posted in the spoiler. But, as I hadn't gotten any genuine feedback on anything so far, I didn't post more material.
I do call into question the specific precedent set, as that appears to be a home-brew version of the Athasian bard (to the best of my knowledge). Not that there's anything wrong with that, but there is no official precedence for the concept, and I didn't want to just steal someone else's work.
I very much appreciate the feedback that I've gotten so far. Thank you, one and all.
Making a bard an information broker definitely feels more bard-y than as a poisoner; unless they turned poisoning into an art form. :)
There is a huge problem with poisons in the pathfinder system though, so I'll relook at your preview and give it a more critical eye than my previous glance.
Making a bard an information broker definitely feels more bard-y than as a poisoner; unless they turned poisoning into an art form. :)
There is a huge problem with poisons in the pathfinder system though, so I'll relook at your preview and give it a more critical eye than my previous glance.
The other thing that I'm a little wary of doing is overloading the class with abilities to keep track of. Also, the "trade secrets" ability felt a lot like reflavoured rogue talents to me, and not necessarily well done ones at that.
As for the poisoner vs. information broker, I hear what you're saying, but when they were originally presented in their second edition Dark Sun form, roughly 25-30% of the material about bards was about how they were masters of poisons. It was a very purposeful departure from the singing troubadour of standard second edition D&D.
In any case... I am on the fence about the information broker stuff (partially because it would require major reformatting to fit it in), but here's the reworked material on bards as it stands now:
Bards on Athas are a curious mix of entertainer and spy, some even going so far as to become assassins. Entertainment is their primary skill, just as it is in the standard Pathfinder setting, and nobles use bards as tools to steal from their enemies, or to perform for their friends, enhancing their prestige. It is considered rude to turn away the gift of a bard or bard company, but some wary nobles will turn away a troop of bards sent by one’s worst enemy. To place bards in an enemy’s house, nobles will often work through a third party, which can turn into a complex game of intrigue and deceit.
Bards are also well-known for their skill in both the use and manufacture of poisons, and those that seek to either poison themselves or others eventually seek out the services of a bard. Their unique services make them a lynchpin in any underworld activity, and their services are well sought after from law-abiding citizens and criminal lords alike.
Athasian bards have the following changes:
Class Skills: Athasian Bard add Craft (Alchemy) to and removes Spellcraft from their list of class skills.
The bard removes spellcasting from their list of class abilities and adds in the following abilities:
Skilled Poisoner (Ex): At 1st level, Athasian bards gain a +1 competence bonus to Craft (Alchemy) checks to create poisons. This bonus increases by +1 for every other level the bard possesses, to a maximum of +10 at 19th level.
Developed Resistance (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, Athasian bards gain a +1 luck bonus on saves versus poisons. Additionally, bards never risk poisoning themselves accidentally. This bonus increases by +1 every other level, to a maximum of +5 at 11th level. At 13th level, this ability upgrades to an immunity to poison.
Hypertoxin (Su): At 5th level, the bard gains the ability to create more virulent poisons. By drawing on their extraordinary knowledge of toxins and reagents, they are able to create hypertoxin additives that they mix into ordinary poisons to make them more deadly or to accomplish specific purposes. These hypertoxins increase the DC Fortitude save of the poison they’re enhancing, but conversely, they add the same amount to the Craft (Alchemy) check to create them.
Hypertoxins also affect the onset of the poison that they’ve been added into, and the frequency with which the victim must attempt to resist the poison, overriding the original values. This can dramatically alter the effects of the original poison, so bards must take extreme care in which hypertoxins they use and when.
The bard may choose one hypertoxin to add to their repertoire at 5th level, and then another every three levels thereafter, to a maximum of six hypertoxins at 20th level. Each hypertoxin is brewed right into the poison that the bard is attempting to craft. Athasian bards may create (3 + Charisma modifier) hypertoxins per day, though if the bard fails to successfully craft the poison that they are attempting, it still consumes one use of this ability. These poisons also do not keep very well; they completely lose their potency after twelve hours and break down into water and inert components that cannot be replicated, leaving the base poison behind.
Athasian Bard Hypertoxins
Name Onset Additional Effect
Blossomkiller Extract 1d4 rounds The target is paralyzed for 1 hour.
Cilops Venom Immediate The target is stunned for 1 round.
Disorientation Dust 2d4 rounds The target is confused for (the bard's level) rounds, as per the confusion spell.
Fright Toxin 1 round Target gains the frightened condition for 1 round.
Heartleaf Stalk Immediate The target is dazed for 1 round.
Kank Oil 1 hour The target is sickened for 1 hour.
Mindwarp Oil 5 rounds The target gains a +10 DC penalty to spellcaster or psionicist’s concentration checks for 1 round.
Obsidian Spores Immediate The target takes 2d4 points of damage.
Poisonweed Pollen 10 minutes The target is rendered unconscious for 1 hour.
Siltwater Solution Immediate The target is sickened for 1 round.
Voicestealer Mist Immediate Renders the target silent for 1 round.
Whispering Wine 1 round The target is charmed, as per the charm monster spell.
Master of Poisons (Su): At 20th level, an Athasian bard is able to craft a master poison so potent, that not even immunity to poisons can protect against it. This master poison can be used only once per day, and it completely ignores any bonuses or immunities that the victim has to poisons. It otherwise functions like any other poison.
Suggested Archetypes: Archaeologist, Archivist, Buccaneer, Celebrity, Court Bard, Daredevil, Demagogue, Dervish Dancer, Juggler, Negotiator, Prankster, Savage Skald, Songhealer, Soundstriker, Street Performer, Thundercaller.
What if you made the Athasian Bard an archetype for the Alchemist who focuses on poisons instead?
I think that stripping away most of what makes a bard a bard is reinventing the wheel when the alchemist has a lot of poison-based features already.
What if you made the Athasian Bard an archetype for the Alchemist who focuses on poisons instead?
I think that stripping away most of what makes a bard a bard is reinventing the wheel when the alchemist has a lot of poison-based features already.
An interesting suggestion, Ventnor, but that takes the shoe and puts it on the other foot. Then the Athasian Bard-chemist has great toxins, but lacks the ability to perform in the entertainment role (which was the other part of the Athasian bard's theme in the original setting).
The suggestion about using some of the alchemist's powers (with regard to poisons) has merit, and would save me word-count. It might even allow me to put "information broker" abilities into the bard without screwing up my formatting (which can be fixed, it's just a lot of work).
Give the bard posion use and allow them to take rogue/ninja talents every other level and all feats that have to do with poison, even from the alchemist. Let them craft poison like alchemists too.
This replaces spells, rest stays the same.
Perhaps some spells like heroism, good hope, etc could be made SLA´s.
Oh and wait for Unchained ;)
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I say keep Athasian Bards are master poisoners, it is far more faithful to the source material and should be allowed to keep such.
Of note is that poisons are not really as strongly tied to alchemists as one may say, at least in my eyes, as their abilities involve most strongly that of bombs and mutagens. Perhaps allow alchamists to keep that focus and allow bards to gain the role of master poisoners.
Give the bard posion use and allow them to take rogue/ninja talents every other level and all feats that have to do with poison, even from the alchemist. Let them craft poison like alchemists too.
This replaces spells, rest stays the same.Perhaps some spells like heroism, good hope, etc could be made SLA´s.
Oh and wait for Unchained ;)
I've given the Bard poison, and as far as allowing them to take rogue/ninja talents that have to do with poison, there's Deadly Cocktail, Iron Guts, Lasting Poison, Poison Bombs, Slow Metabolism, and Swift Poison. There simply aren't enough talents to make that work out very well (giving one every three levels would leave enough, but no wiggle room for choice and individualism). Still, thanks for the suggestion!
I'm not willing to wait for Pathfinder Unchained to come out just to work on this. It will probably force some revisions, but I'm okay with that.
Thank you, though.
Defiling Option:
Cast Spell as Full Round Action to add to Caster Level.
Could make it a flat +1 to +4, or make it scale with actual character level(+1 effective Caster level / 4 Character Levels) or spell level.(+1 effective Caster Level / 2 Spell Levels) (in the original, defiled radius was dependent on spell level.)
I like this version of the bard. But there is one major problem with the bard making poisons: the time it takes due to the high cost of poisons. Poisons in PF cost a lot because it's based on them being illegal and having to pay black market prices, but this makes no sense in areas where they are not illegal.
We either have to add in an ability for the bards to make poisons at 10-20x reduced cost or simply preset the DC's to make them to bring the crafting DC and the time to make a poison back into reasonable figures.
Another alternative is to make a poison lost exclusively available to bards and set it up like the spell list, where they prepare poisons (aka prepare spells) on a daily basis and use (aka cast) them throughout the day. The poisons wild be weaker, but it would give a PC a lot more uses for a lot less cost.
I like this version of the bard. But there is one major problem with the bard making poisons: the time it takes due to the high cost of poisons. Poisons in PF cost a lot because it's based on them being illegal and having to pay black market prices, but this makes no sense in areas where they are not illegal.
We either have to add in an ability for the bards to make poisons at 10-20x reduced cost or simply preset the DC's to make them to bring the crafting DC and the time to make a poison back into reasonable figures.
Another alternative is to make a poison lost exclusively available to bards and set it up like the spell list, where they prepare poisons (aka prepare spells) on a daily basis and use (aka cast) them throughout the day. The poisons wild be weaker, but it would give a PC a lot more uses for a lot less cost.
Idea: treat them similar to alchemist-extracts, so a bard would be able to prepare X a day and they would be basically a personal resource he could expend. (for use by him or others, they'd go inert after 24 hours however)
I like this version of the bard. But there is one major problem with the bard making poisons: the time it takes due to the high cost of poisons. Poisons in PF cost a lot because it's based on them being illegal and having to pay black market prices, but this makes no sense in areas where they are not illegal.
We either have to add in an ability for the bards to make poisons at 10-20x reduced cost or simply preset the DC's to make them to bring the crafting DC and the time to make a poison back into reasonable figures.
Another alternative is to make a poison lost exclusively available to bards and set it up like the spell list, where they prepare poisons (aka prepare spells) on a daily basis and use (aka cast) them throughout the day. The poisons wild be weaker, but it would give a PC a lot more uses for a lot less cost.
I did think about that, but I had concerns about reducing the cost of crafting poisons. Even reducing them by 1/2 (which would be reasonable) is still so little that it hardly seems worth the effort. I had thought about giving bards a "level adjustment" when accounting for wealth by level, and extra starting money to reflect the concept that someone has probably already hired them to make poisons, but that's probably best left up to the GM.
To reduce costs to 10% or 5% of their original costs incentivises players of bards to mass produce poisons, and then it's like being on Oprah. "You get some poison, and you get some poison... Everybody gets some poison!" Can you imagine putting Tears of Death (contact poison; 1d6 Con and paralyzed for 1 minute with a frequency of once per minute for six minutes) into the hands of every member of your party for 108gp to 217gp per dose? You could potentially kill a character with a single dose in three minutes. A pretty inexpensive coup de grace.
A starting bard could conceivably, without any discounts, craft small centipede poison (injury poison; 1 Dex) for 30gp per dose (a reasonable cost). The 90%-95% discount would put that down to between 1gp, 5sp and 3gp to craft the poison. 30gp per dose seems reasonable to me. Three gold or less... Not so much. Even without an increased starting wealth, you could start play with 50 doses of the stuff. Set a spike trap or needle trap and you could completely immobilize a target in a single round with a dozen or so doses. Greenblood oil could potentially be just as bad as Tears of Death (at slightly higher cost than small centipede poison). Bear in mind, a character with the rich parents trait could craft even more, or afford to make a minimum of 3 doses of Tears of Death as a starting character.
Kind of a scary power to place into the hands of a first or low-level character, no?
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A possible "fix" to the "poisons are difficult to do" in DS: Poison Pool.
Chiming in here. Toss out Paladins. And Rangers. Go with these:
Fighter
Barbarian
Brawler (aka Gladiator)
Slayer (aka Ranger - maybe trade Sneak Attack for Favored Terrains)
Rogue (Unchained!!!)
Investigator (aka Trader - his "extracts" are just things he got through trading)
Bard (swap out Spellcasting for Poison Pool and maybe Talents)
Cleric (Elemental - maybe trade out medium armor for martial weapons)
Oracle (Elemental Mysteries)
Druid
Warpriest (aka Templar in Tyr, Urik and Draj)
Inquisitor (aka Templar in Raam, Balic, and Gulg)
Antipaladin (aka Templar in Nibenay)
Wizard
Sorcerer
Psionic Classes (undecided between the two)
Also check out the mechanics for the Wilder's Wild Surge - maybe this could be utilized and reskinned to be your Defiler's Surge as opposed to free metamagic (free metamagic!!!!!).
If DSP for psionics, consider reskinning Mythic Tiers as Psionic Tiers basically allowing PCs to Gestalt 1/2 or 1/3 of their character levels as a Psion or Psywarr. Either way definately generate your random Wild Talent table from powers in this book.
If Occult Adventures, I think these would be a very flavorful for Athas.
Interested to see where else this goes. Cheers.
Idea: treat them similar to alchemist-extracts, so a bard would be able to prepare X a day and they would be basically a personal resource he could expend. (for use by him or others, they'd go inert after 24 hours however)
This actually addresses a lot of issues by making it easy for the Alchemist to have lots of poisons, but keeps the Bard from just passing out poison to everyone, since Extracts can only be used by the Alchemist. It also makes switching from a Casting class much easier because you're just shifting from casting spells to using a spell-like system similar to the Alchemist. The real trick would be designing poisons the seem to work in a spell like framework.
Allow the Bard to actually craft regular poisons as well for those special poisons they save for a special occasion, or need to pass off to somebody else and you're golden.
A possible "fix" to the "poisons are difficult to do" in DS: Poison Pool.
Chiming in here. Toss out Paladins. And Rangers. Go with these:
** spoiler omitted **Also check out the mechanics for the Wilder's Wild Surge - maybe this could be utilized and reskinned to be your Defiler's Surge as opposed to free metamagic (free metamagic!!!!!).
If DSP for psionics, consider reskinning Mythic Tiers as Psionic Tiers basically allowing PCs to Gestalt 1/2 or 1/3 of their character levels as a Psion or Psywarr. Either way definately generate your random Wild Talent table from powers in this book.
If Occult Adventures, I think these would be a very flavorful for Athas.
Interested to see where else this goes. Cheers.
I appreciate the chiming in.
I'll think about the poison pool, but it seems to be unnecessary bookkeeping (which I'm attempting to avoid). As for your suggestions for classes, I think I'm going to stick with what I've got (especially after eyeballing the Templar division), but I appreciate the suggestions. I'm also not pre-programming the conversion for gestalt, so I may not take the suggestion you offered, even if I go the Dreamscarred Press route.
Thank you again for your input, though! It's taking me in unexpected directions already, but I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing.
Best wishes!
This actually addresses a lot of issues by making it easy for the Alchemist to have lots of poisons, but keeps the Bard from just passing out poison to everyone, since Extracts can only be used by the Alchemist. It also makes switching from a Casting class much easier because you're just shifting from casting spells to using a spell-like system similar to the Alchemist. The real trick would be designing poisons the seem to work in a spell like framework.
Allow the Bard to actually craft regular poisons as well for those special poisons they save for a special occasion, or need to pass off to somebody else and you're golden.
Please see the hypertoxin ability in my 1.1 spoiler.
Just to note, I think that designing poisons that work in a spell-like framework is just going to result in having X number of flavors of the spell, poison. This is sketchy design territory, unfortunately.
If DSP for psionics, consider reskinning Mythic Tiers
You know, Dark Sun does seem to lend itself well to Mythic. Between the Dragons and their preserver counterparts, and some of the feats and changes the heroes pull off Mythic seems to be exactly what is going on with Dark Sun's greatest heroes and villains.
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I would love to see Mythic Paths that follow after the Athasian Dragon and Avangion of Dark Sun, though of not is how it requires both psionic levels and arcane levels... though of note is that they were epic level PrCs so could well be hard to implement as such. That and the 'Advanced Beings' of Dark Sun were very challenging to gain and go up in level because of the nature of finding and using the pieces of the metamorphism spell required to become either a Athasian Dragon or Avangion.
For those that don't know what Avangion are here is a small bit of information about them:
Avangion
“Nothing on Athas is as dangerous as hope. Each of the destroyers of worlds set out to save or to restore. Will history remembers my hopes with the hopes of Gretch, Rajaat, and the architects of the Pristine Tower?”
―"Wisdom of Sorrow," by Oronis
Having mastered both psionics and arcane magic, some of Athas' most powerful preservers seek out the mysteries of a metamorphosis that would change themselves into strange beings of gossamer wings and light. As avangions, they can combine their mastery of the Way and arcane arts into psionic enchantments that some say counters dragon magic. Others say that the avangions bring a healing power, and that they come not to fight, but to return life to dying lands. Most sages have never heard of avangions, and would probably call them myth.
To Bodhizen, if you need more information, I can copy and PM it to you.
If DSP for psionics, consider reskinning Mythic TiersYou know, Dark Sun does seem to lend itself well to Mythic. Between the Dragons and their preserver counterparts, and some of the feats and changes the heroes pull off Mythic seems to be exactly what is going on with Dark Sun's greatest heroes and villains.
I wholeheartedly agree, and I plan on making sure that mythic material sees inclusion (write-ups for a sorcerer-king or two, or Sadira of Tyr would be a perfect place to start).
I would love to see Mythic Paths that follow after the Athasian Dragon and Avangion of Dark Sun, though of not is how it requires both psionic levels and arcane levels... though of note is that they were epic level PrCs so could well be hard to implement as such. That and the 'Advanced Beings' of Dark Sun were very challenging to gain and go up in level because of the nature of finding and using the pieces of the metamorphism spell required to become either a Athasian Dragon or Avangion.
For those that don't know what Avangion are here is a small bit of information about them:
To Bodhizen, if you need more information, I can copy and PM it to you.Avangion
“Nothing on Athas is as dangerous as hope. Each of the destroyers of worlds set out to save or to restore. Will history remembers my hopes with the hopes of Gretch, Rajaat, and the architects of the Pristine Tower?”
―"Wisdom of Sorrow," by Oronis
Having mastered both psionics and arcane magic, some of Athas' most powerful preservers seek out the mysteries of a metamorphosis that would change themselves into strange beings of gossamer wings and light. As avangions, they can combine their mastery of the Way and arcane arts into psionic enchantments that some say counters dragon magic. Others say that the avangions bring a healing power, and that they come not to fight, but to return life to dying lands. Most sages have never heard of avangions, and would probably call them myth.
Thanks, JonathonWilder. I actually played Dark Sun when it came out, which is why I've been toying around with the idea of writing a conversion for the past year or so. I have the Prism Pentad novels and the ones dealing with Sorak as well. Sadly, I don't have the Rise and Fall of a Dragon King.
I'm not quite there yet... I've just started into Base classes, so it'll take me a while. I still need to do hybrid classes, psionic classes (whether that's Dreamscarred Press material or Occult Adventures), monetary systems, slave trade, equipment, spell lists, new spells, ect... Before I get to the bestiary where I can stat up a sorcerer-king or two, and an avangion.
Although... If someone wanted to do some leg-work and work on some of the adjunct systems (like money/equipment/slave trade), I'd happily credit them in the final product.
Honestly I planned on using both the occult adventures and DSP material for Athas, simply explaining the occult magic is more of the arcane version of psionics. I can see the medium as a shamanistic class, calling on fragments of entities/vestiges of lore and binding them and the occultist as someone who uses items as vessels for their arcane energies. Spiritualist is the vessel for a echo of the past, possibly even a Tribe of One. I can even see the mesmerist being a sorcerers kings best lacky, using their mind probing abilities to really turn the crowds.
Also DSP is producing a supplement that can blend both systems! Theyre so nice :3
Also I think the Akashic Mysteries from DSP are a pretty awesome addition to Athas, I did it with incarnum in 3.5
Honestly I planned on using both the occult adventures and DSP material for Athas, simply explaining the occult magic is more of the arcane version of psionics. I can see the medium as a shamanistic class, calling on fragments of entities/vestiges of lore and binding them and the occultist as someone who uses items as vessels for their arcane energies. Spiritualist is the vessel for a echo of the past, possibly even a Tribe of One. I can even see the mesmerist being a sorcerers kings best lacky, using their mind probing abilities to really turn the crowds.
Also DSP is producing a supplement that can blend both systems! Theyre so nice :3
Also I think the Akashic Mysteries from DSP are a pretty awesome addition to Athas, I did it with incarnum in 3.5
I wish you all the best with that, Freedom16! I feel that to do both would be a boatload of work, and some of it might end up being redundant, depending on how the classes worked out in Occult Adventures.
If it wasn't only me working on this conversion, then it might be a bit of a different story, labor-wise. I've got lots to do so far, and adding more on top isn't high on my priority list.
Best wishes!
Evening update:
I have progressed through the following base classes:
- Alchemist
- Antipaladin
- Cavalier
- Inquisitor (Templar; in progress)
I also have a working list of patrons (dragon-kings and avangions, both living and dead, but not undead) for templars to serve. This is a work in progress that already has alignments, domains and favoured weapons. Things like subdomains, inquisitions, and added spells will come later.
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I love Dark Sun, but I’m not sure it is a very good fit for Pathfinder.
Weapons break. Heavy armour is impossible to wear for any length of time.
Wizards, on the other hand, will apparently get “free” metamagic or some other boost if they elect to defile.
The disparity between martial characters and full casters in the Core game is not because the martials are too good and need to be nerfed.
Don´t know, but when i understood the setting right, magic will as often get you into trouble as out of it. Or from one trouble into another.
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Playing a spellcaster is likely to get you killed or at least generally distrusted and scorned, hunted by the Templars and generally being treated as a terrible person or a threat even if you are good/trying to help others.
More to the point, if the player actually chooses to have their character defile they are killing the land and will generally be hated by everyone thus really have a hard time. Even playing it safe and being a preserver will still not take away the above problems without actually proving yourself.
Pretty much playing a spellcaster painted a target on your character, more so then normally, and fighters will have a much easier time surviving.
Also an experienced spell caster is supposed to be super scary in Dark Sun. They have power far beyond what others can hope to achieve. As I recall the only things that non-casters ever use to effectively fight experienced casters in the novels are artifacts.
My unofficial Pathfinder Beta take on Dark Sun, mostly used for a PaizoCon game.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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I'd mix bard and alchemist together to make an Athasian bard: take Bardic Music and the various skill things from the bard, and the poison and extracts from the alchemist. That gives you a guy who has the music/entertainment thing that bards have, which is a big part of their cover story in Dark Sun(where they are given as gifts between noble houses as part of intrigue). But they also get the poison use/chemistry of the alchemist - which allows them to have some non-magical magic in a setting where magic is reviled.
I'm not sure you'd need both cleric and oracle - my group was thinking about making there be just one, or possibly using one for elemental clerics and the other for paraelementals. Since the fluff involved making a pact with elemental forces, you might dump clerics/oracles entirely and go with witches with elemental patrons.
Inquisitor seems like a good fit for templars. All you'd really need to do is pick domains/inquisitions for each sorcerer-king.
It might be a little premature, but it also seems like avangions and dragons should be their own mythic paths. Or maybe a generic "advanced being" path that also would allow elementals and spirits of the land. Or you could add that stuff onto archmage and heirophant. Coincidentally, the mythic system works a lot better with how advanced beings are portrayed in the fluff.
Since we don't have official PF psionics yet, I also think that just giving each character a 0-level power from Psionics Unleashed is the way to go.
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I love Dark Sun, but I’m not sure it is a very good fit for Pathfinder.
Weapons break. Heavy armour is impossible to wear for any length of time.
Wizards, on the other hand, will apparently get “free” metamagic or some other boost if they elect to defile.
The disparity between martial characters and full casters in the Core game is not because the martials are too good and need to be nerfed.
Dark Sun is a very rich world-setting that could fit into nearly any sword and sorcery RPG. It's essentially the world of Barsoom (John Carter of Mars) set to Dungeons and Dragons. Sure, it takes some work, but you can preserve the flavour of the setting and largely use Pathfinder's mechanics (including weapon-breaking). Of course, you don't have to use the weapon-breaking rules (just as you don't have to in standard Pathfinder).
So, as Hayato Ken, JonathonWilder and Hark were so kindly pointing out, use of sorcery (read: arcane magic) is completely outlawed. People know that sorcery ravaged the world, drained it of water, left plantlife scarce, and basically, made the world as harsh and as savage as it is. They fear it, and rightfully so.
If you cast alter winds (a relatively benign spell), in standard Pathfinder, generally no one freaks out. If you cast alter winds in the Dark Sun setting, people scream bloody murder, and everyone, from the kindliest grandmother to the most innocent of children will run to the templars to tell them you're a sorcerer. While they hate and fear the templars, they hate and fear sorcerers more. They've been raised on generations of stories (and eye-witness accounts of defiling) that it doesn't matter if you're a preserver or a defiler, you're automatically the enemy - the source of absolutely everything that has gone wrong with their world. You're responsible. You're the one to blame. It's your fault.
So go ahead and enjoy the power-disparity between arcane casters and martial characters. The Dark Sun setting never even attempted to equalise them. It completely demonises arcane casters. No one frets too much if you swing your sword and behead your foe, but if you cast a spell to kill your foe, you're instantly public enemy number one.
That's where the game gains balance. Arcane casters have to be sneaky about casting, or just not cast. Arcane casters even have to hide their powers from their party-mates, often-times. Almost everybody holds these beliefs, and the ones that don't are generally part of a society of arcane casters that work to kill defilers and heal the land. Go ahead... Cast a spell. Bring every foe in the world-setting down upon your head. I double-dog-dare you.
My unofficial Pathfinder Beta take on Dark Sun, mostly used for a PaizoCon game.
I'll have to check that out. Thank you.
I'd mix bard and alchemist together to make an Athasian bard: take Bardic Music and the various skill things from the bard, and the poison and extracts from the alchemist. That gives you a guy who has the music/entertainment thing that bards have, which is a big part of their cover story in Dark Sun(where they are given as gifts between noble houses as part of intrigue). But they also get the poison use/chemistry of the alchemist - which allows them to have some non-magical magic in a setting where magic is reviled.
It doesn't work. There's not enough poison material for alchemists, and bards didn't work with any other chemical substances. If I'm going to have to create materials, I might as well just keep bards and alchemists separate and write material for bards. I'd rather not bastardise two functional (and fun) classes to have a poor hybrid of both.
I'm not sure you'd need both cleric and oracle - my group was thinking about making there be just one, or possibly using one for elemental clerics and the other for paraelementals. Since the fluff involved making a pact with elemental forces, you might dump clerics/oracles entirely and go with witches with elemental patrons.
I am well aware of the fact that you don't need both, but once you start picking and choosing, you get into the "you should have had this class because I think it fits better in the setting and I enjoy it more" on both sides of the argument. I can resolve both arguments before they become arguments by making both classes viable options. The only class that genuinely does not work at all for Pathfinder is the gunslinger, and that's for mainly thematic reasons instead of mechanical.
Inquisitor seems like a good fit for templars. All you'd really need to do is pick domains/inquisitions for each sorcerer-king.
There's a little more to it than that, but that's basically what I'm doing. I thought it was a great fit as well.
It might be a little premature, but it also seems like avangions and dragons should be their own mythic paths. Or maybe a generic "advanced being" path that also would allow elementals and spirits of the land. Or you could add that stuff onto archmage and heirophant. Coincidentally, the mythic system works a lot better with how advanced beings are portrayed in the fluff.
It is a little premature, but that doesn't mean that I don't want the input. I'll get there eventually, and I plan on Avangions and Dragon-Kings being mythic characters, even if the metamorphosis doesn't end up being a "mythic path". I'll think more about it when I get to that point. Also, I agree with you that the mythic system works a lot better with how advanced beings are portrayed in the enrichment materials.
Since we don't have official PF psionics yet, I also think that just giving each character a 0-level power from Psionics Unleashed is the way to go.
I'm not quite to psionics just yet, so I'll see how it goes. I want to remain optimistic about Paizo's attempt at psionics for now.
Thanks for giving your input, everyone! I do appreciate it!
Sadly, I don't have the Rise and Fall of a Dragon King.
There's no excuse for not getting it on amazon for $0.01 plus shipping. (I think they republished it, the cover looks different)
And since no one pointed it out yet: Check out Dragon Kings Project by Tim Brown. A Dark Sun re-imagining by one of the original designers.
It's available on Paizo here, and the gazetteer is free as is the Pathfinder rules supplement.
Note that originally DS designers saw much more biotech and strange races in DS. But it was toned down a bit. I can't find the reference for it, will o some searching. Brom's artwork does often show this though...
So bodymodifications, and grafts and definately some additional weird PC races might be in order.
And since no one pointed it out yet: Check out Dragon Kings Project by Tim Brown. A Dark Sun re-imagining by one of the original designers.
It's available on Paizo here, and the gazetteer is free as is the Pathfinder rules supplement.
Note that originally DS designers saw much more biotech and strange races in DS. But it was toned down a bit. I can't find the reference for it, will o some searching. Brom's artwork does often show this though...
So bodymodifications, and grafts and definately some additional weird PC races might be in order.
I think that the reason that no one has pointed out the fact that Tim Brown re-imagined the Dark Sun setting is because it's not exactly relevant. This is a conversion of the original setting, not a conversion of the re-imagined setting, which isn't necessary since it's available for sale.
As for Rise and Fall of a Dragon King, I have since acquired it, but it hasn't made itself of use with regard to the conversion as of yet.
Thank you for your input, though.
It doesn't work. There's not enough poison material for alchemists, and bards didn't work with any other chemical substances. If I'm going to have to create materials, I might as well just keep bards and alchemists separate and write material for bards. I'd rather not bastardise two functional (and fun) classes to have a poor hybrid of both.wrote:
I'd mix bard and alchemist together to make an Athasian bard: take Bardic Music and the various skill things from the bard, and the poison and extracts from the alchemist. That gives you a guy who has the music/entertainment thing that bards have, which is a big part of their cover story in Dark Sun(where they are given as gifts between noble houses as part of intrigue). But they also get the poison use/chemistry of the alchemist - which allows them to have some non-magical magic in a setting where magic is reviled.
I respectfully disagree. Working with poisons doesn't mean that Bards are barred from using other chemicals. The difference between poison and medicine is often just how large a dose of the substance you are using.
Although now that I think about it, what if you used a modded Investigator as an Athasian bard? Investigators are all about the subtle skill use that is the hallmark of Athasian Bards, with the mutagens and bombs stripped away.
Maybe make an archetype that gives Investigators Bardic Performance instead of Studied Combat and a few other substitutions here and there, and I think it could work.
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Although now that I think about it, what if you used a modded Investigator as an Athasian bard? Investigators are all about the subtle skill use that is the hallmark of Athasian Bards, with the mutagens and bombs stripped away.
Maybe make an archetype that gives Investigators Bardic Performance instead of Studied Combat and a few other substitutions here and there, and I think it could work.
No, I disagree and feel the Athasian Bard must be the base class. Seriously, it is backwards to take a different class and make it more bard-like then taking the Bard and replacing spell casting with poison related abilities and series of 'talents' like a rogue or ninja.
That is where I feel you should start.
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I just think that stripping the spellcasting away from a spellcasting class is needlessly complicated when another class that is close enough to the concept with a few tweaks is already there. That's all.
I respectfully disagree. Working with poisons doesn't mean that Bards are barred from using other chemicals. The difference between poison and medicine is often just how large a dose of the substance you are using.
Although now that I think about it, what if you used a modded Investigator as an Athasian bard? Investigators are all about the subtle skill use that is the hallmark of Athasian Bards, with the mutagens and bombs stripped away.
Maybe make an archetype that gives Investigators Bardic Performance instead of Studied Combat and a few other substitutions here and there, and I think it could work.
I will respectfully disagree with your disagreement.
The source-material gave bards poisons. Dark Sun made a big deal about bards being masters of poisoning. They didn't get anything else, and there were other things in the game at the time. Not anything as developed as the alchemist class abilities, mind you, but material was there. It would be doing a great disservice to both classes to make a hybrid class, especially when Athasian bards are just about the same as standard bards, except that poison gets added into the mix. As I've stated before, I do not wish to bastardise two classes just to get a few minor abilities out of alchemists and add them to bards and either have double-coverage with alchemist abilities in bards plus alchemists, or drop the awesome out of alchemists and just leave it out of the setting. It's more work to rework alche-bards than it is to make sure standard bards get poison abilities, and it fits better with the original source material.
As for modding Investigators as Athasian bards... No. They're being used for Athasian templars, and really, they're a much better fit for templars than for bards.
Thanks for your input, though.
Investigators, not Inquisitors. Investigators are like rogues who get the extracts and poison stuff from the alchemist.
But, anyway, it's just a suggestion.
I just think that stripping the spellcasting away from a spellcasting class is needlessly complicated when another class that is close enough to the concept with a few tweaks is already there. That's all.
Respectfully, the bard is not a primary spellcasting class. Spellcasting is something that's tacked on to the rest of the class; it's not their main vehicle for adventuring like it is for wizards, clerics, witches and the like. Paladins would still be paladins without spellcasting, and so would bards.
If you consider any class that has access to spells a "spellcasting class", then you're essentially advocating against taking spellcasting abilities away from any class. If that's a verböten, then we're going to have to agree to disagree. After all, there's precedent in official Pathfinder material (even if only in archetypes for other classes).
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Many have consider the Investigator a replacement of the Rogue and definitely isn't a Bard, it doesn't have bardic music or the bard's focus. You would be swapping quite a bit if not most of what the Investigator is just to make it a Bard, and as such I argue it is better to take the actual Bard class.
Also, remember there is a spell-less ranger and a paladin archetype that gives up spellcasting so it can/has been done. In Dark Sun, Bards are the poison masters and trying to take a different class just to poorly get this is not the way to go whether Investigator or Alchemist.
That is my feelings on the subject.
Investigators, not Inquisitors. Investigators are like rogues who get the extracts and poison stuff from the alchemist.
But, anyway, it's just a suggestion.
My apologies for not having read it closely enough to catch that. I'd have to majorly rework Investigators to put in the entertainer abilities that are the other side of the Athasian bard's coin.
I appreciate the suggestion. Thank you.
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Elemental Cleric
As an elemental cleric, you gain the following class features.
Domains: At 1st level, you must select at least one of your domains from the following list: Air, Earth, Fire, or Water. Additional domains you select (if any) need not be chosen from this list.
Channel Energy (Su): At 1st level, you gain Elemental Channel as a bonus feat. You can only use your channel energy ability to activate the Elemental Channel feat. You cannot use it to channel positive or negative energy. This modifies channel energy.
Elemental Resistance (Ex): Starting at 1st level, your gain resist electricity 5 if you have the Air domain, resist acid 5 if you have the Earth domain, resist fire 5 if you have the Fire domain, and resist cold 5 if you have the Water domain.
Elemental Bond (Su): At 6th level, you gain the arcane bond feature of the wizard class, using your cleric level as your wizard level, and gain Improved Familiar as a bonus feat. You can only use these abilities to bond with a Small elemental whose subtype matches one of your cleric domains.
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I respectfully disagree. Working with poisons doesn't mean that Bards are barred from using other chemicals. The difference between poison and medicine is often just how large a dose of the substance you are using.
Although now that I think about it, what if you used a modded Investigator as an Athasian bard? Investigators are all about the subtle skill use that is the hallmark of Athasian Bards, with the mutagens and bombs stripped away.
Maybe make an archetype that gives Investigators Bardic Performance instead of Studied Combat and a few other substitutions here and there, and I think it could work.
I will respectfully disagree with your disagreement.
The source-material gave bards poisons. Dark Sun made a big deal about bards being masters of poisoning. They didn't get anything else, and there were other things in the game at the time. Not anything as developed as the alchemist class abilities, mind you, but material was there. It would be doing a great disservice to both classes to make a hybrid class, especially when Athasian bards are just about the same as standard bards, except that poison gets added into the mix. As I've stated before, I do not wish to bastardise two classes just to get a few minor abilities out of alchemists and add them to bards and either have double-coverage with alchemist abilities in bards plus alchemists, or drop the awesome out of alchemists and just leave it out of the setting. It's more work to rework alche-bards than it is to make sure standard bards get poison abilities, and it fits better with the original source material.
As for modding Investigators as Athasian bards... No. They're being used for Athasian templars, and really, they're a much better fit for templars than for bards.
Thanks for your input, though.
I have to agree with this. I really want to see the bard as a poisoner (and an information broker), rather than as an archetype or a hybrid class. I really am in agreement with trying to stay true to the original setting - even if some classes have to suffer for it. After all, every one in Dark Sun suffers in some way....
Base classes are finished. Moving on to Hybrid classes.
Base classes are finished. Moving on to Hybrid classes.Any chance you could show us the base classes?
Hrmmm... Doubtful. At least, not in full.
Part of the issue is that I don't want to give away everything (even though I'm making it free when I'm done anyway). The other part is that if I'm not really going to get much critical analysis before the release, there's not much point in sharing the materials.
Ohh interesting.
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Hrmmm... Doubtful. At least, not in full.
Part of the issue is that I don't want to give away everything (even though I'm making it free when I'm done anyway). The other part is that if I'm not really going to get much critical analysis before the release, there's not much point in sharing the materials.
Actually I would argue getting some critical analysis before release is very important. At the very least to hear others thoughts on your work and potentially improve the work before release. Sure, not everyone is helpful and you may well have those you don't agree with your vision at all, but I feel there is more benefit then not in getting others to look over your work.
Actually I would argue getting some critical analysis before release is very important. At the very least to hear others thoughts on your work and potentially improve the work before release. Sure, not everyone is helpful and you may well have those you don't agree with your vision at all, but I feel there is more benefit then not in getting others to look over your work.Hrmmm... Doubtful. At least, not in full.
Part of the issue is that I don't want to give away everything (even though I'm making it free when I'm done anyway). The other part is that if I'm not really going to get much critical analysis before the release, there's not much point in sharing the materials.
Oh, I fully agree that getting critical analysis before the release is extremely important, I've just gotten next to none so far. I've gotten some theorycraft on bards (mostly), and a few helpful items here and there, but it's been very minor thusfar. The idea is that if the critical analysis is going to be lacking in the critical department, or analysis is going to be spotty at best, then there's not much point in posting, "Hey, guys! Take a look at this!" if it has to carry the unspoken disclaimer of, "I know you probably won't, or if you do, you won't say anything about it that's useful or helpful to improving the overall product, but kudos to you for looking at it."
Does that help explain the thought process behind the decisions so far?
This class does not really say "bard" to me at all. I like the concept, but it seems like an entirely different class. I think it is better as a new class or an arcetype of the rogue or slayer.Bards were, in second edition Dark Sun, very much poisoners. It was a huge part of their class concept. While I understand that you feel that it belongs as an archetype of rogue or slayer, it is very true to the source material for them to be poisoners.
I will likely use the mechanics presented in an earlier link, but change the flavor about it being rude to turn down a bard from another royal family. I know people can have silly traditions, but inviting a spy into my home because "tradition" is not something that is going to work for me.
This keeps the bard class, but still allows them to fill the role they did in 2nd edition. :)
edit: I am likely going to use the archaeologist bard as the chassis and work from there.