I have not forgotten about this thread. I should have something worth reading later on.
So maybe I'm late to the game and I didn't read what was covered here, but how do you guys plan on addressing the whole cleric and divine classes without deities thing?
Bodhizen, I just wanted to thank you for all this effort. Dark Sun is one of my favorite settings TSR ever produced; after someone mentioned it to me recently I really wanted to run it in Pathfinder. You have saved me so much work, not to mention given me many ideas with your interpretations.
Thank you very much for your interest, and for your words of praise.
Now for some questions. The original setting had no potions as they existed in other settings; instead they made use of potion fruit. Based on your Alchemist write up it seems you've decided to ignore this quirk. Was that intentional?
As a matter of fact, that was intentional. I wasn't a big fan of potion-fruits in the original setting, nor was I a big fan of spell-fruits (which replaced spell scrolls) because I thought they were a bit silly. I've also realised that I'd have to not only revise potions and scrolls, but much of an alchemist's abilities, and it doesn't make sense given that bards work with chemicals (poisons) all the time. It really just felt unnecessary.
While I generally like how you've described defiling; I have three comments. In addition to affecting the plant life, defiling affected those (friend or foe) caught with-in the defiling radius; it reduced their initiative. Had you thought of adding in some affect to replicate this?
I had, but I'm actually saving that for dragon magic, where it makes far more sense. I'm keeping the defiler magic strictly in the world of flora, and dragon magic will affect fauna.
Secondly, in the lore defiling is generally depicted as something once you start doing you can't stop. With the rules you've set up, even the Dragon could cast a spell without defiling. Had you considered inflicting some inertia type penalty on defilers? I.e. the more defiler points they have the more difficult it is not to defile out of habit even when not intending to? Perhaps make it a Will save with the DC based on number of Defiler Points and the level of the spell reduced by the Caster Level (higher level means more control)? Having said that, I'd also give them the option of taking an extra action to ground themselves to guarantee they don't defile (say a move action).
This was another deliberate choice. Canonically speaking, Keltis (10th Champion of Rajaat) makes the deliberate choice to stop using defiler magic and search for magic to counter the effects of the defiling. He partially succeeds and becomes Oronis, the first Avangion. So, I want defilers to be able to make the choice to stop using defiling magic; mostly because I do not wish to limit player agency. The temptations to take the shortcut via defiling are going to be more than enough to keep a defiler on their path.
And lastly, how do you envision your version of defiling interacting with Trees of Life? No plant life destruction is the obvious one; but does the potential defiler accrue points when they offset the defiling to a Tree?
My plan is to address that when I get to the entry on Trees of Life. Essentially, a Tree of Life is only going to be able to withstand so much defiling before it is destroyed, but it's going to grow back again. Sadira managed to damage quite a few Trees in her fight against Dhojakt. I do not intend to make it a "Defiling doesn't work against the tree! Defile away!" magical plant, even though it will remain a magical plant.
Again, thanks for all the hard work!
Thank you, kindly!
So maybe I'm late to the game and I didn't read what was covered here, but how do you guys plan on addressing the whole cleric and divine classes without deities thing?
They worship the elements. That makes them a bit more limited than clerics in the standard Pathfinder setting.
To those of you reading this we are trying to make the hyperpoison less open to abuse. Of course if someone really wants to make this have crazy saves by dipping classes or using 3 or 4 splat books they probably can. The goal is to also make sure the ability is not too difficult to use. With that said I am now going to see what I could find this time around that is easy to take advantage of.
First testing range assumes a craft bonus of 18 to 22 for a 7th to 8th level. The bonus can by higher, but at that point we would assume the character is hyper-specializing for the DC. This current character is trying to be good, but not putting all of his resources into it.
Sometimes you will want the effect of the base poison the most, and sometimes you will just want the highest DC for the lowest price to attach the hyperpoison affect to it.
We will look at saves of 20 for normal creatures, and 23 to 24 for boss fights. With the bard adding his level to the fort save I only need the poison to have a base of 13 to 16/17. I already feel like adding half the bard's level is the better idea, but I could be wrong. Let's continue.
The first thing that comes to my mind is putting someone to sleep or making them unconscious. I can choose a hyper poison that does this or a base poison. Let's look at the hyper poison, Poisonweed Pollen, first. It has a 10 minute onset time, and +18 to the craft DC. In a social setting where we are trying to poison the food this onset time is not bad. We would need to combine it with drow poison. That is at the edge of what our 7th/8th level bard can craft by taking 10, but it can surely be done with enough attempts, and there is 50% chance of it working if the creature is hit with it. That is kinda risky until we level up some more. I chose the drow poison for the low craft DC, not for its sleep affect.
Let see if I can make this work better in combat. This time I am looking at drow poison and blue whinnis. In combat more chances at poisoning may show up. If I go with blue whinnis I can take down APL+2 creatures about 50% of the time. I find the 50% chance more acceptable. I can add anything from a +14 to a +18 from the hyper poison list, for the high end effects.
My person favorite, the heartleaf stalk which causes daze is not on the board. It is not likely to be crafted at level 7, not level 8 unless more effort is put into the poison crafting. *This could work especially if I allow the poison to be used by the more martially inclined party members. This is not necessary for the bard to give up his martial ability. It is just one option.
So let's try another poison. I am going back to old faithful, giant wasp poison. Even though I skipped it earlier large scorpion venom allows for str damage instead of dex, and is likely to be more debilitating. with a DC of 24 to 26, and therefore likely to work in boss fights despite being cheap. This takes down Cr 11 to CR 13 monsters 50% of the time, I will see what the hyper poison list gives me for a +5 to +15 craft DC increase.
I will try to keep this as short as possible while listing what can happen.
I can affect outsider and undead, however undead are immune to ability damage to physical stats so they are still safe.
The target can be stunned, but to do while only taking 10 I would have to be level 8 or put more effort into crafting poisons, which will mean something is lost somewhere else. However a stunned boss can turn the tables. This(taking down bosses) would continue to work for the entire game unless a creature had extraordinarily high fort saves for its CR. Just to recap, earlier *I had the idea of giving the poison to archers with a higher BAB or just coating the weapons of martial. This has two affects. One, it means the creature may be force to make more than one save. Two, it means the DC's will increase since if you are affected twice by the same poison type the DC goes up by 2.
You can also render the target silent meaning certain spellcasting classes(wizards, oracles, sorcerers, witches, shamans) who are not likely to have great fort saves anyway will either be no longer casting without the silent metamagic feat.
Even at 1/2 the bard level bonus to the poison DC the creatures in the CR 8 to CR 9 range will be affected about 50% of the time. Once again this assumes no hyper-focusing on bumping the poison crafting DC's up. If a player goes that route the GM may have to handle it for his group.
Now I will jump to level 12 to see how this works out.
12 ranks
3 class skill
6 skill focus
+2/3 int bonus
+6 1/2 class level
+28/29
At this level we have purple worm poison with a craft DC of 24 and a DC of 24. Add in the +12 from the bard and we have a fort save of 36. Use 1/2 the bard's level and we get a 30. CR 18 monsters are in trouble.Stunning a creature is in play. Even the cheap poisons such as the wasp poison are still useful, and I can also add in affects such a dazing.
I am thinking that only allowing the bard to boost the DC's by a something such as 1 for every 5 levels is better, starting at level 1. He can also boost the DC's by an additional amount equal to 1/4 his bard levels, but he needs to beat the craft DC by 15 to get the 1/4 boost. That would make it more difficult to get really high DC's by just taking 10. <--No math was done with this. It is just an example.
I might as well use the wasp poison just to try it out.
So at level 12
18 base DC
+3 from leveling.
+3 1/4 bard levels assuming check is made.
That is a 24 DC.
I am already seeing ways around this also.
I have another idea, but it will require more typing than I feel like doing right now. In a day or two I will try to have something ready to look at.
After thinking of several things I know that no flat bonus is going to work either.
I think that instead of using the base poisons we have to have the bard be able to replicate the affect of the poisons. That way we are not chained to the poison DC's and prices. It would still count as a poison however, so the lore/flavor is still maintained.
I will try to put something out in a few days.
I can't really see any reason to use a poison in combat that isn't either the Stun or the Daze poison. I guess Undead would be a good reason, but that's a good reason to avoid all of them.
The bard's best strategy from level 5 on is to figure out what poison he can make with a take 10 with Cilops Venom and then make a ton of that.
Maybe also, if he can TWF, do the same with Blossomkiller extract. Paralyzed is by far the better condition to lay on a foe. Once you see that's he's paralyzed, just CDG and move on.
I'm likely going to work on a side project making 40 or 50 poisons with spell levels and such that can be subbed in for bard spells. When I've got it thought out a bit I'll toss it up here as well to see how you folks feel about it.
I can't really see any reason to use a poison in combat that isn't either the Stun or the Daze poison. I guess Undead would be a good reason, but that's a good reason to avoid all of them.
The bard's best strategy from level 5 on is to figure out what poison he can make with a take 10 with Cilops Venom and then make a ton of that.
Maybe also, if he can TWF, do the same with Blossomkiller extract. Paralyzed is by far the better condition to lay on a foe. Once you see that's he's paralyzed, just CDG and move on.
I'm likely going to work on a side project making 40 or 50 poisons with spell levels and such that can be subbed in for bard spells. When I've got it thought out a bit I'll toss it up here as well to see how you folks feel about it.
This is another idea I was working on, but the other easier idea I have is the one I hope works well.
Basically the "pseudo-poison(not the official name)" will allow you to decide what affect to add to it. I will try to make it compatible with the hyper-poisons, but in the end my goal is to have something that works.
It should be simple enough to work on the fly without consulting a chart and doing a lot of math.
Since your work might help me out if my easy idea does not work, I will be looking forward to whatever you come up with.
edit:The power of stun, daze, paralysis, and sleep(unconscious) are the reasons why I keep trying to add those affects every time around. I expect that in an actual game that is what the players will likely go for.
Other casters will be able to one-shot bosses if they focus on it, so stopping that is not my goal. I just don't want parties taking down APL+6 monsters in one round that easily, which is what I have been able to do.
To keep the DC's in check here is a suggested alternation to the hyperpoison system.
When you create a hyperpoison, in addition to the affect the hyperpoison adds to the poison the DC of the poison increases by 1. If you wish to further increase the DC of the base poison you may do so by expending daily uses of the hyperpoison, however if you fail the craft check all of the uses of the hyperpoison are wasted. You must declare in advance how many uses of the hyperpoison you are using. If you expend 2 uses of the hyperpoison the DC increases by 2. If you expend 3 uses of the hyperpoison the DC increases by a number equal to your bard level. However the poison DC may not surpass a number greater than your bard level +17, when increased in this manner.
As an example if a 7th level bard were to use a base poison with a DC of 18, an he chose to expend 3 uses of hyperpoison to push the DC to 25 it would actually cap at 24.
The reason for the cap of bard level+17 is that it gives the bard about a 50% chance to affect creatures with an CR of APL+4, and that is also what other spellcasters can do with their higher level spells. Yes, it's gamist, but it should keep the DC's in check.
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With that done I will give my opinion on some of the hyperpoisons and their craft DC's.
Banshee Bone-powder is not likely to be picked up since there is a level 12 ability that makes it obsolete.
Disorientation Dust takes too long to come into affect. The fight may be over by then. According to more than one discussion on the forums a fight last no more than 3 to 5 rounds, and the last round or two is just mop up. I think it should have an immediate onset time.
Desert Breath is overpriced. For the same +20 it can basically be taken out of the fight. Another issue is that the bard or one of his allies may take the fire damage, so he actually has a reason to never use this one.
Kank oil is one that I don't see being picked up. Being sickened for an hour is not really worth it, if you have to wait an hour for it. Being nauseated might be a better condition, considering the long wait time.
Mindwarp oil has the same problem as the disoriention dust. It takes too long to take affect. I would just use voicestealer mist instead. Yeah, I know psions dont care about areas of silence.
Stoneheart Toxin should cost less than Blossomkiller extract. Both can be used to kidnap people, but stoneheart toxin would likely cause their weight to increase by a large amount. Yes, I am aware the being paralyzed may not stop a psion, unless its modified to say that even mentals actions such as SLA's can not be used either.
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The other idea I have about modifying the poisons will come later.
To those of you reading this we are trying to make the hyperpoison less open to abuse. Of course if someone really wants to make this have crazy saves by dipping classes or using 3 or 4 splat books they probably can. The goal is to also make sure the ability is not too difficult to use. With that said I am now going to see what I could find this time around that is easy to take advantage of.
First testing range assumes a craft bonus of 18 to 22 for a 7th to 8th level. The bonus can by higher, but at that point we would assume the character is hyper-specializing for the DC. This current character is trying to be good, but not putting all of his resources into it.
Sometimes you will want the effect of the base poison the most, and sometimes you will just want the highest DC for the lowest price to attach the hyperpoison affect to it.
Yes, that's a feature, not a bug.
We will look at saves of 20 for normal creatures, and 23 to 24 for boss fights. With the bard adding his level to the fort save I only need the poison to have a base of 13 to 16/17. I already feel like adding half the bard's level is the better idea, but I could be wrong. Let's continue.
The first thing that comes to my mind is putting someone to sleep or making them unconscious. I can choose a hyper poison that does this or a base poison. Let's look at the hyper poison, Poisonweed Pollen, first. It has a 10 minute onset time, and +18 to the craft DC. In a social setting where we are trying to poison the food this onset time is not bad. We would need to combine it with drow poison. That is at the edge of what our 7th/8th level bard can craft by taking 10, but it can surely be done with enough attempts, and there is 50% chance of it working if the creature is hit with it. That is kinda risky until we level up some more. I chose the drow poison for the low craft DC, not for its sleep affect.
Let see if I can make this work better in combat. This time I am looking at drow poison and blue whinnis. In combat more chances at poisoning may show up. If I go with blue whinnis I can take down APL+2 creatures about 50% of the time. I find the 50% chance more acceptable. I can add anything from a +14 to a +18 from the hyper poison list, for the high end effects.
My person favorite, the heartleaf stalk which causes daze is not on the board. It is not likely to be crafted at level 7, not level 8 unless more effort is put into the poison crafting. *This could work especially if I allow the poison to be used by the more martially inclined party members. This is not necessary for the bard to give up his martial ability. It is just one option.
So let's try another poison. I am going back to old faithful, giant wasp poison. Even though I skipped it earlier large scorpion venom allows for str damage instead of dex, and is likely to be more debilitating. with a DC of 24 to 26, and therefore likely to work in boss fights despite being cheap. This takes down Cr 11 to CR 13 monsters 50% of the time, I will see what the hyper poison list gives me for a +5 to +15 craft DC increase.
I will try to keep this as short as possible while listing what can happen.
I can affect outsider and undead, however undead are immune to ability damage to physical stats so they are still safe.
The target can be stunned, but to do while only taking 10 I would have to be level 8 or put more effort into crafting poisons, which will mean something is lost somewhere else. However a stunned boss can turn the tables. This (taking down bosses) would continue to work for the entire game unless a creature had extraordinarily high fort saves for its CR. Just to recap, earlier *I had the idea of giving the poison to archers with a higher BAB or just coating the weapons of martial. This has two affects. One, it means the creature may be force to make more than one save. Two, it means the DC's will increase since if you are affected twice by the same poison type the DC goes up by 2.
I can see what you're saying here. I'm concerned that hypertoxins with DCs that are too low will be useless.
You can also render the target silent meaning certain spellcasting classes(wizards, oracles, sorcerers, witches, shamans) who are not likely to have great fort saves anyway will either be no longer casting without the silent metamagic feat.
Are you arguing that this is too powerful, or just making an observation?
Even at 1/2 the bard level bonus to the poison DC the creatures in the CR 8 to CR 9 range will be affected about 50% of the time. Once again this assumes no hyper-focusing on bumping the poison crafting DC's up. If a player goes that route the GM may have to handle it for his group.
Now I will jump to level 12 to see how this works out.
12 ranks
3 class skill
6 skill focus
+2/3 int bonus
+6 1/2 class level+28/29
At this level we have purple worm poison with a craft DC of 24 and a DC of 24. Add in the +12 from the bard and we have a fort save of 36. Use 1/2 the bard's level and we get a 30. CR 18 monsters are in trouble. Stunning a creature is in play. Even the cheap poisons such as the wasp poison are still useful, and I can also add in affects such a dazing.
That is certainly problematic.
I am thinking that only allowing the bard to boost the DC's by a something such as 1 for every 5 levels is better, starting at level 1. He can also boost the DC's by an additional amount equal to 1/4 his bard levels, but he needs to beat the craft DC by 15 to get the 1/4 boost. That would make it more difficult to get really high DC's by just taking 10. <--No math was done with this. It is just an example.
I might as well use the wasp poison just to try it out.
So at level 12
18 base DC
+3 from leveling.
+3 1/4 bard levels assuming check is made.
That is a 24 DC.
I'd prefer to use the formula (base poison's Fort DC + 1/4 the bard's level + Int modifier). This (generally) limits the bonus for the hypertoxin on the Fort DC to +9 (at 20th level, unless your Int is above 19). At 12th level, the hypertoxin (with giant wasp poison) would be 24 (assuming Intelligence 16/17). Possibly a little less, possibly a little more.
To neutralise the DC 24 poison + hypertoxin, a 12th level cleric (a high priest, for example) or a 12th level paladin with the poisoned mercy only needs to roll a 12 to negate the poison entirely. That's a 45% chance of successfully negating your poison after it has already taken effect. That level 12 high priest already has a +13 Fortitude save, so they only need to roll a 9 or higher to save against the poison/hypertoxin (a 60% chance of success) to avoid its effects in the first place. Are you sure that this doesn't reduce the effectiveness of hypertoxins too far?
Assuming 1/2 level as the bonus, the hypertoxin has a DC 27 (Giant Wasp Poison [DC 18] + 1/2 the bard's level [6] + Intelligence modifier [3]) to resist it, that same high priest needs to roll a 14 to resist (a 35% chance) the hypertoxin, and if affected, needs to roll a 15 to negate it (a 30% chance to neutralise). Chances aren't great, but they're not abyssmal, either. That is, mind you, without any specific protections against poisons either, like the Great Fortitude feat (an additional 10% to resist) or Divine Health (for paladins, which gives an additional 20% to resist), the Resilient trait (an additional 5% to resist) or the Iron Liver trait (an additional 10% to resist), and many of these traits and feats are stackable.
I am already seeing ways around this also.
There's always going to be a way to get around something.
I have another idea, but it will require more typing than I feel like doing right now. In a day or two I will try to have something ready to look at.
After thinking of several things I know that no flat bonus is going to work either.
I want to keep it simple.
I think that instead of using the base poisons we have to have the bard be able to replicate the affect of the poisons. That way we are not chained to the poison DC's and prices. It would still count as a poison however, so the lore/flavor is still maintained.
Ummm... No.
Sorry, but please allow me to clarify. Hell no.
Now that I've gotten that out, I'd like to repeat that I want to keep this simple. While I'm 999 shades of cool about bards being master poisoners as they were in the original setting, I'm not rewriting the poison system, nor am I giving them a blank check to use expensive poisons, even if it is limited to a handful of times per day. I understand and respect your position on poison pricing versus effectiveness and DCs. I think you see this as a bigger problem than I do, and if not for the fact that a paladin's poisoned mercy or a neutralise poison spell, a third to fourth level spell depending upon your class, can still potentially negate hypertoxins, I might feel differently.
I will try to put something out in a few days.
Thank you for all of your help in this!
Not that I ever played Dark Sun but in Unearthed Arcana they have spell tiles, that could be an interesting option in stead of the spell potions or spell fruit.
Again I have never played just following for inspiration.
I don't want to force players to have to use rules in Unearthed Arcana to play the game.
I can't really see any reason to use a poison in combat that isn't either the Stun or the Daze poison. I guess Undead would be a good reason, but that's a good reason to avoid all of them.
Not every hypertoxin is meant to be used on the combat clock.
The bard's best strategy from level 5 on is to figure out what poison he can make with a take 10 with Cilops Venom and then make a ton of that.
This encourages me to increase the craft DC of Cilops Venom. As it stands, if you use Small Centipede Poison, for example, you have a DC 26 to craft your poison. Can you take a 10 at 5th level and craft a DC 26 poison?
In any case, I've bumped Cilops Venom up to +20 to craft, which would make it a DC 31 poison (at minimum) to create. At what level do you think that you can reasonably take a 10 to automatically craft some Cilops Venom? Do I need to go above +20 on the Craft (Alchemy) roll?
Also, it now has an onset time of 2d4 rounds. Combat may be over by the time it takes effect.
Maybe also, if he can TWF, do the same with Blossomkiller extract. Paralyzed is by far the better condition to lay on a foe. Once you see that's he's paralyzed, just CDG and move on.
I've made Blossomkiller Extract's onset time now 1d4 minutes, which means that it is not going to see use in combat.
I'm likely going to work on a side project making 40 or 50 poisons with spell levels and such that can be subbed in for bard spells. When I've got it thought out a bit I'll toss it up here as well to see how you folks feel about it.
I'll definitely give it a look. Thank you for your assistance!
edit:The power of stun, daze, paralysis, and sleep(unconscious) are the reasons why I keep trying to add those affects every time around. I expect that in an actual game that is what the players will likely go for.
This is why I'm trying to make them difficult to create and take longer to take effect.
Other casters will be able to one-shot bosses if they focus on it, so stopping that is not my goal. I just don't want parties taking down APL+6 monsters in one round that easily, which is what I have been able to do.
I appreciate your assistance.
To keep the DC's in check here is a suggested alternation to the hyperpoison system.
When you create a hyperpoison, in addition to the affect the hyperpoison adds to the poison the DC of the poison increases by 1. If you wish to further increase the DC of the base poison you may do so by expending daily uses of the hyperpoison, however if you fail the craft check all of the uses of the hyperpoison are wasted. You must declare in advance how many uses of the hyperpoison you are using. If you expend 2 uses of the hyperpoison the DC increases by 2. If you expend 3 uses of the hyperpoison the DC increases by a number equal to your bard level. However the poison DC may not surpass a number greater than your bard level +17, when increased in this manner.
I am going to politely reject this alternative. This forces players to find the highest DC toxin they can afford to use the hypertoxin in the first place, regardless of the poison's effect or type (ingested, injury, etc...). This would only become useful if you use 3 (out of a likely 7 total uses per day, and I'm not increasing uses as that causes other problems) uses. If you fail, then you must use an additional 3 to try to create a poison with a hypertoxin additive. Assuming that you've failed once, but succeeded the second time, you've used 6 of your 7 total uses per day to create one toxin. That's incredibly punitive for an increase of your bard level, even if it can increase the Fort DC of your poison up to a hard-cap of 37. It's incredibly punitive to make it use up 3 uses of your hypertoxin ability. So... The +1 for one use is way too low. The +2 for two uses is way too low. The +level (hard cap 37) is not worth three uses. If you had 2 uses per day per bard level, it would be a much less bitter pill to swallow, but then you could spam out low DC hypertoxins (which would also eat through all of your ceramic really, really fast).
As an example if a 7th level bard were to use a base poison with a DC of 18, an he chose to expend 3 uses of hyperpoison to push the DC to 25 it would actually cap at 24.
This encourages bards to use base poisons with as low of a DC as they can go at all times. Why use anything other than small centipede poison or drow poison (for cost effectiveness purposes) when you're capped? If I'm a 7th level bard, I get a DC 20 small drow poison + hypertoxin for 3 uses (severely underwhelming, and I'm only 4 under the cap). If I'm a 20th level bard, I get a DC 33 drow poison + hypertoxin (and I'm still only 4 under the cap, and still severely underwhelmed for the price tag in uses per day).
This completely removes the use of base poisons with a higher DC than 17, as they'll actually be penalised in their use. If I'm a fantastically wealthy 12th level bard, would I want to expend 3 uses of my hypertoxin ability and 500 ceramic pieces to create one dose of dragon bile + any hypertoxin to get a DC 29 poison (only 3 above where dragon bile currently sits anyway)? Even if I'm 20th level, I still blow 3 uses of the hypertoxin ability to crank out one dose of dragon bile + hypertoxin to get a DC 37 poison, which is only 11 above dragon bile's Fort DC save.
The reason for the cap of bard level+17 is that it gives the bard about a 50% chance to affect creatures with an CR of APL+4, and that is also what other spellcasters can do with their higher level spells. Yes, it's gamist, but it should keep the DC's in check.
I will respectfully disagree. A 12th level wizard can do a heck of a lot more damage and destruction with a single spell than a bard can do with 3 doses of hypertoxin, even to creatures with a CR of APL+4.
With that done I will give my opinion on some of the hyperpoisons and their craft DC's.
Banshee Bone-powder is not likely to be picked up since there is a level 12 ability that makes it obsolete.
Can you remind me of this ability, please?
Disorientation Dust takes too long to come into affect. The fight may be over by then. According to more than one discussion on the forums a fight last no more than 3 to 5 rounds, and the last round or two is just mop up. I think it should have an immediate onset time.
Reasonable, and altered.
Desert Breath is overpriced. For the same +20 it can basically be taken out of the fight. Another issue is that the bard or one of his allies may take the fire damage, so he actually has a reason to never use this one.
The idea behind Desert Breath was to hit an opponent with it and back off. They'll belch a gout of flame and then take some internal damage. I thought it would be a fun effect. I can reduce the Craft DC. Do you feel that +12 would be reasonable to inflict 5d6 damage per round for 1d4 rounds to your victim?
Kank oil is one that I don't see being picked up. Being sickened for an hour is not really worth it, if you have to wait an hour for it. Being nauseated might be a better condition, considering the long wait time.
Reasonable, and altered.
Mindwarp oil has the same problem as the disoriention dust. It takes too long to take affect. I would just use voicestealer mist instead. Yeah, I know psions dont care about areas of silence.
Reasonable, and altered to take effect after 1 round. Having a +5 penalty to concentration checks for 10 rounds is solid, wouldn't you agree?
Stoneheart Toxin should cost less than Blossomkiller extract. Both can be used to kidnap people, but stoneheart toxin would likely cause their weight to increase by a large amount. Yes, I am aware the being paralyzed may not stop a psion, unless its modified to say that even mentals actions such as SLA's can not be used either.
I was concerned about smashing the statue that you've just turned your foe into.
The other idea I have about modifying the poisons will come later.
Thank you again for all of your assistance!
You can also render the target silent meaning certain spellcasting classes(wizards, oracles, sorcerers, witches, shamans) who are not likely to have great fort saves anyway will either be no longer casting without the silent metamagic feat.Are you arguing that this is too powerful, or just making an observation?
I am not saying this hyperpoison is too good. I am saying with the current system in place it is too easy to shutdown most boss(APL+3 or higher) level casters.I mean you can give all of them the silent spell metamagic feat, but since it is metamagic it will bar them from their highest level of spells unless they have a metamagic rod.
I'd prefer to use the formula (base poison's Fort DC + 1/4 the bard's level + Int modifier). This (generally) limits the bonus for the hypertoxin on the Fort DC to +9 (at 20th level, unless your Int is above 19). At 12th level, the hypertoxin (with giant wasp poison) would be 24 (assuming Intelligence 16/17). Possibly a little less, possibly a little more.To neutralise the DC 24 poison + hypertoxin, a 12th level cleric (a high priest, for example) or a 12th level paladin with the poisoned mercy only needs to roll a 12 to negate the poison entirely. That's a 45% chance of successfully negating your poison after it has already taken effect. That level 12 high priest already has a +13 Fortitude save, so they only need to roll a 9 or higher to save against the poison/hypertoxin (a 60% chance of success) to avoid its effects in the first place. Are you sure that this doesn't reduce the effectiveness of hypertoxins too far?
Assuming 1/2 level as the bonus, the hypertoxin has a DC 27 (Giant Wasp Poison [DC 18] + 1/2 the bard's level [6] + Intelligence modifier [3]) to resist it, that same high priest needs to roll a 14 to resist (a 35% chance) the hypertoxin, and if affected, needs to roll a 15 to negate it (a 30% chance to neutralise). Chances aren't great, but they're not abyssmal, either. That is, mind you, without any specific protections against poisons either, like the Great Fortitude feat (an additional 10% to resist) or Divine Health (for paladins, which gives an additional 20% to resist), the Resilient trait (an additional 5% to resist) or the Iron Liver trait (an additional 10% to resist), and many of these traits and feats are stackable.
Well in this case either 1 or 2 things will happen. The bard becomes much more MAD or the bard pushes intelligence instead of charisma as his primary stat. Now with the spells being gone, a bard really can put int as a primary stat. Also with only having to pay 1/3 the price due to crafting the bard can make the DC 24 poison for only 300. Even at half wealth that is easy at level 12 especially if the party chips in. I tried a version of this, but I never posted it, which is how I came up with the last post I made.
Also, when I said "I am already seeing ways around this also", I was saying "I am very easily seeing ways around this.". If I actually had to put any effort into it, then I would say it was ok, since that means in order to break the system that others would have to put in real effort or some resources. So far I have only used skill focus and that was so I could only need a +1 or +2 for intelligence. It has never taken me more than 5 minutes to find a problem. The longest part of this is me having to put it on paper for feedback.
I think you see this as a bigger problem than I do, and if not for the fact that a paladin's poisoned mercy or a neutralise poison spell, a third to fourth level spell depending upon your class, can still potentially negate hypertoxins, I might feel differently.
Not every monster/bad guy is going to have neutralize poison, so I dont think it will be negated unless bards are so common that everyone(enemies aka bosses) will be sure to have a way to stop their main feature. Now if that is the case, then that is a problem on the other end of the scale. It is like everyone lining their castle walls with lead to avoid scry and fry. It also takes a while for paladins to get to 3rd level spells. Maybe inquisitors(templars) can have it at an earlier rate. As for high saves there is that feat in the advance class book that lets other divine classes add their charisma to their saves, but I don't expect for them to be the bosses, or even the support in every fight.
Now if you are saying that most enemies, will have an in-setting ability(resource wise) to keep divine casters around that is different. I really don't know the lore of the setting well, so I dont know how practical that is. Yes I realize I am backtracking from when I said it won't be common because I was making an assumption.
As for Ciclops venom, it is really good. I would put it directly below the one that does daze, and just barely below it.
As for my idea being punitive the idea is to find a poison that you know you can take 10 with. That way you don't waste any uses, unless the boss makes the save, but then you just tag him again. He is not likely to make it twice. Sure a player can gamble on something they can't craft with the taking 10 rule. As for enouraging certain poison uses based on DC's and prices that is already being done. No matter what we do that will happen.
As for the wizard comment, I am not disagreeing, but unless a wizard really tries to jack his DC's up he is not taking out APL+6 creatures on roll of 10. <---That was my point.
The Banshee Bone I spoke of is replaced by "Master of Poisons (Su)" which says "hypertoxins so potent that not even immunity to poisons can protect against them". Now this is limited to 1/day when you first get it, but banshee bone is not likely to be used several times per day either so I would skip it for another hyperpoison.
With Desert Breath, I thought the opponent(victim) would breath fire immediately. I like the idea behind it. I just think most players would want to not be hit by it. Will the fire be breathed as soon as the victim's turn comes up, or will the victim have a chance to choose a target? I think you will say they won't be able to move, but it should probably be mentioned in the pdf. Yeah I will say a +12 is fair.
When I GM I tend to have multiple enemy boss fights, so taking one creature will not win the fight. I occasionally also have a healer of some sort. If I ran single boss fights it would not be ok. I also don't use XP, and if a party is really optimized I just use stronger encounters. For me this is at a point where it's ok. I would just hate for you to get this done, and then have people complaining about the class.
PS: I see your point about the poison that turn people to stone, but they could also be coup de graced if they are paralyzed. At that point they are both at someone's mercy with regard to death, but one allows for much easier kidnapping. Then again with a bag of holding you can put the "statue" in there, and not worry about it suffocating. If someone is paralyzed they might die since air runs out in 5 minutes. So I guess they are about equal.
I am not saying this hyperpoison is too good. I am saying with the current system in place it is too easy to shutdown most boss (APL+3 or higher) level casters. I mean you can give all of them the silent spell metamagic feat, but since it is metamagic it will bar them from their highest level of spells unless they have a metamagic rod.
I'm not so sure that it's so easy to shut down most boss casters. Sure, they might have metamagic rods or the Silent Spell metamagic feat, and having Voicestealer Mist around might increase the chances that you might see such feats and rods in game play. However, I think it's important to remember that poison doesn't just work, and often not from a distance. It requires the victim to ingest it, inhale it, become injured by it, or come into contact with it. That's partly where the base poison comes into play.
In any case, rendering the target silent for a round (up to ten rounds) isn't horrible, though I could certainly reduce the duration. There's a lot worse that could be done, and that assumes that the target doesn't resist the poison in the first place. How about I reduce the duration to 1d4 rounds?
Well in this case either 1 or 2 things will happen. The bard becomes much more MAD or the bard pushes intelligence instead of charisma as his primary stat. Now with the spells being gone, a bard really can put int as a primary stat. Also with only having to pay 1/3 the price due to crafting the bard can make the DC 24 poison for only 300. Even at half wealth that is easy at level 12 especially if the party chips in. I tried a version of this, but I never posted it, which is how I came up with the last post I made.
I don't know if I'd argue that the bard would become much more MAD, but I thought that calculating the DC with the bard's Charisma modifier didn't make any sense. I don't know how game-play runs at your table, but at mine, players generally don't dump a lot of coin into one-shot items that aren't guaranteed to work.
Also, when I said "I am already seeing ways around this also", I was saying "I am very easily seeing ways around this.". If I actually had to put any effort into it, then I would say it was ok, since that means in order to break the system that others would have to put in real effort or some resources. So far I have only used skill focus and that was so I could only need a +1 or +2 for intelligence. It has never taken me more than 5 minutes to find a problem. The longest part of this is me having to put it on paper for feedback.
Fair enough. I know that if someone was really dedicated to crafting poisons, they could increase their chances of successfully crafting a hypertoxin additive to their base poison and virtually guarantee success, but that does take resources away from other things that the bard could be doing, and it's still not a guaranteed-to-work item. There is no way around that except to either make crafting hypertoxins so hard that it's an iffy ability to use in the first place (and therefore, not worth the trade for spells), or to simply say, "You can't do this." Neither is desired, of course, but again, the potential for abuse is still limited by how much coin you're willing to spend, the number of times per day you can make an attempt at crafting a hypertoxin, and whether or not it will actually work.
So, let's say that you get your Craft (Alchemy) at 12th level up to +40 (+12 ranks, +3 class skill, +5 from Intelligence 21, +6 skill focus, +2 master alchemist feat, +2 brewmaster feat, +6 skilled poisoner class ability, +1 unblemished barrel trait, +2 snake bleeder trait, +1 portable alchemist's lab). This is impressive, but it can still go a little higher with other magical items or the normal alchemist's lab. You can take a 10 and craft any poison that you wish to, or alternatively, craft a low DC poison and add in any hypertoxin that you wish to. This suggests that the craft DC for all of the hypertoxins is currently too low. I'm fine with adjusting that. Bump the character up to 20th level, and without any further feats and you go up to +52. Even if I take out the skilled poisoner class ability, you're down to +42, which is more than enough to get the job done.
So, what remains is to determine what change will be adequate without rendering hypertoxins so astronomically difficult as to make them useless at lower levels. Do we go with a tiered system where you need to be a certain level to make certain hypertoxins? Do we boost the craft DC? Do we do both? Honestly, I think that since bottled sunlight requires a DC 30 Craft (Alchemy) check to create, I've lowballed the craft costs. I'm going to bump them all up by at least +18, and remove the bonus to Craft (Alchemy) checks to create poisons from the skilled poisoner class ability (changing it to a generic Heal bonus instead).
Now, at 5th level, I've got a +23 to Craft (Alchemy) checks (+5 ranks, +3 class skill, +4 from Intelligence 19, +3 skill focus, +2 master alchemist feat, +2 brewmaster feat, +1 unblemished barrel trait, +2 snake bleeder trait, +1 portable alchemist's lab). This is still impressive, but now I need a DC 35 check to craft the weakest of poisons plus the easiest of hypertoxins. I doubt that I'm taking a 10 here.
If I don't layer on all of those resources, crafting hypertoxins is hard work, but still possible. Does this help to resolve the issue of crafting ease? (I'm not worried about the ceramic piece cost.)
Not every monster/bad guy is going to have neutralize poison, so I dont think it will be negated unless bards are so common that everyone(enemies aka bosses) will be sure to have a way to stop their main feature. Now if that is the case, then that is a problem on the other end of the scale. It is like everyone lining their castle walls with lead to avoid scry and fry. It also takes a while for paladins to get to 3rd level spells. Maybe inquisitors(templars) can have it at an earlier rate. As for high saves there is that feat in the advance class book that lets other divine classes add their charisma to their saves, but I don't expect for them to be the bosses, or even the support in every fight.
Neutralise poison is a common enough spell (and paladins don't need to go for the spell, they can cure it with a mercy at 12th level), and templars are common features to any city-state. I know about the Divine Protection feat, which can further reduce the efficacy of the bard's poisons. I suppose my point was to suggest that it's easy enough to defeat all on its own.
Now if you are saying that most enemies, will have an in-setting ability (resource wise) to keep divine casters around that is different. I really don't know the lore of the setting well, so I dont know how practical that is. Yes I realize I am backtracking from when I said it won't be common because I was making an assumption.
Yeah, templars are a common feature to the setting. Each sorcerer-king employs hundreds, if not thousands, of templars.
As for Ciclops venom, it is really good. I would put it directly below the one that does daze, and just barely below it.
Stunned is actually a worse condition than dazed. Dazed means that you cannot act, but have no penalty to AC. Stunned means that you drop everything that you're holding, cannot take actions, take a -2 penalty to AC, lose your Dexterity bonus to AC, and opponents get a +4 to combat maneuvers against you. That's why I put Cilops Venom slightly above Heartleaf Stalk.
As for my idea being punitive the idea is to find a poison that you know you can take 10 with. That way you don't waste any uses, unless the boss makes the save, but then you just tag him again. He is not likely to make it twice. Sure a player can gamble on something they can't craft with the taking 10 rule. As for enouraging certain poison uses based on DC's and prices that is already being done. No matter what we do that will happen.
Yes, no matter what we do, it's going to happen. I hope that my changes (listed above) take care of the taking 10 issue.
As for the wizard comment, I am not disagreeing, but unless a wizard really tries to jack his DC's up he is not taking out APL+6 creatures on roll of 10. <---That was my point.
I didn't mean to suggest that I didn't catch your point. My point is that the bard isn't going to take out an APL+6 creature by taking a 10 on her or his Craft (Alchemy) check. There are still a few steps between crafting the poison + hypertoxin and taking out the APL+X opponent.
The Banshee Bone I spoke of is replaced by "Master of Poisons (Su)" which says "hypertoxins so potent that not even immunity to poisons can protect against them". Now this is limited to 1/day when you first get it, but banshee bone is not likely to be used several times per day either so I would skip it for another hyperpoison.
I've clarified the intent of Banshee Bone, so hopefully, this is not at issue. It now reads, "The base poison affects undead and outsiders, unless they have no score in the ability being damaged."
With Desert Breath, I thought the opponent(victim) would breath fire immediately. I like the idea behind it. I just think most players would want to not be hit by it. Will the fire be breathed as soon as the victim's turn comes up, or will the victim have a chance to choose a target? I think you will say they won't be able to move, but it should probably be mentioned in the pdf. Yeah I will say a +12 is fair.
"The target immediately belches forth a five-foot gout of flame, taking 5d6 points of fire damage and causing 3d8 points of fire damage to any creature directly in front of the target. The target may not choose which direction the flame is directed."
The fire will be spewed forth upon exposure to the poison. That means that the first round, they don't get to choose a victim unless they can move. Afterward, they can position themselves to belch fire more strategically, but since the target doesn't know when the effect will end, this may place them in potential danger after they've taken all the damage from the toxin.
When I GM I tend to have multiple enemy boss fights, so taking one creature will not win the fight. I occasionally also have a healer of some sort. If I ran single boss fights it would not be ok. I also don't use XP, and if a party is really optimized I just use stronger encounters. For me this is at a point where it's ok. I would just hate for you to get this done, and then have people complaining about the class.
I appreciate every bit of assistance and constructive criticism that you've given me. It's made for a better product, and though I've been hoping not to spoil it, as I wanted to keep it as a surprise, I plan on crediting everyone who has helped me to improve this product in the document.
PS: I see your point about the poison that turn people to stone, but they could also be coup de graced if they are paralyzed. At that point they are both at someone's mercy with regard to death, but one allows for much easier kidnapping. Then again with a bag of holding you can put the "statue" in there, and not worry about it suffocating. If someone is paralyzed they might die since air runs out in 5 minutes. So I guess they are about equal.
I had thought as much.
If its an arcane caster he will likely have miss chances protection and/or mirror image, so yeah hitting him will not be easy, but for a cleric other caster in armor it only takes a ranged or melee attack. I understand the poison is a rider affect unless it is inhaled, but I think injury or contact will be the form more likely to be used in combat. Inhaled or ingested poisons seem to have a longer setup time.
A martial can have an attack bonus in the low 20's even with low WBL at levels 10 to 12. A bard can probably have a +15, so he might not even poison someone else's weapon, unless he thinks he has too.
One shot items that can win the fight are different than most other one shot items, which have a very low DC such as most scrolls. These poisons are even cheaper than most scrolls so it is not a bad deal. In a normal(non Dark Sun) game, this would not happen because anything forcing such a high DC is likely to cost more than 70 to 230 gp. Basically I expect for players to adapt to the setting.
As for the DC's I would not use your example of the +40 at 12 as the measuring standard because that is a dedicated poison crafter. I think a decent effort is better. That is why I only assumed one feat and a +1 or +2 at level 7/8 for intelligence. If someone wants to have a +40 at level 12, the GM should have to deal with that. Even that +40 can be higher, and as more books come out it can probably get to the mid 50's by level 12. It can probably hit 50 now, but that is so abnormal I dont think we can do much about it.
Just to clear things up my idea was not to make it too hard or too easy at any level. I fully understand that at some point people will move on form the wasp and scorpion poison, on to the purple worm poison, whichever one cost 1500 to buy.
It might be better to not use the craft DC as a barrier. Magic items are assumed to be easily makable, and while you have to make the check, it is normally so easy, that it is trivial.
Bard's can add 1/3 their level to the DC.
So at level 7 using the wasp poison you get 18+2=20 DC
That is a CR 7 monster, not even a boss fight. Nothing else from the CRB is worth picking up.
If you add a 2 from int, you get a 22 which s a CR 9 for an APL 7 party. At level 8 you can reliably make a +32 check so that leaves a +14 for hyper poisons. You can use a lower DC and get a better hyper poison affect meaning bosses are safe. This seems to be a good trade-off.
At 12 I had a +28/29 meaning taking 10 gives me a 39.
Purple worm poison by itself now has a DC of 28 which is about a 50/50 shot on a CR 15 monster. Once again I have about 15 to spend on a hyper poison. This however is the height of poison DC's.
You know I assumed that using half WBL it would be a mitigator, but assuming we are balancing for 20 we will still have the WBL of a level 17 character meaning a int score as a secondary score can get to 23 or higher. I wont account for crafting so I think +6 is a fair int modifier.
24+6(1/3 bard level)+6=36. That is about right for a boss fight at level 20.
Level 12
24+4+3=31<---This is too high, but I think I have a solution below.
Basically the problem seems to be the sudden jump from the wasp poison to the purple worm poison, and it is only about 230 gp to craft so even having 54000 gp at level 12, which is half of what should be had that 230 is really cheap. That is a +6 DC jump with nothing in between. Other than it forcing 2 saves to get rid of it, it is not really all that impressive on its own, but it is great for the hyper poisons starting point. I think the price jump might stop people from making that one every day. I also think the time jump mentioned below will make it so that they may not always be able to have it exactly when they want it.*
I am thinking of having the normal version become a lesser version with a DC of 21, and the new normal version have a DC of 24. The cost would be more 600 gp more. That makes it so we dont have to reprice every hyperpoison or every poison. That also means that even if it is crafted the cost is about 400 gp. Changing the creation of the hyperpoison time to a minute or an 10 minutes might also be worth doing.
If its an arcane caster he will likely have miss chances protection and/or mirror image, so yeah hitting him will not be easy, but for a cleric other caster in armor it only takes a ranged or melee attack. I understand the poison is a rider affect unless it is inhaled, but I think injury or contact will be the form more likely to be used in combat. Inhaled or ingested poisons seem to have a longer setup time.
Yes, injury or contact will be the most common uses, since ingested will likely occur in narrative time, and inhaled poisons are uncommon. Having said that, clerics also have their own defenses; better armour, better Fortitude saves, their own defensive spells, the aforementioned neutralise poison, and the like. They might even have items or allies that assist in their protection. I would imagine that they'll be all right.
A martial can have an attack bonus in the low 20's even with low WBL at levels 10 to 12. A bard can probably have a +15, so he might not even poison someone else's weapon, unless he thinks he has too.
There's nothing to prevent this. However, until the bard hits 12th level, creatures that are immune to poison are still immune to poison, and at 12th level, the bard or her ally gets three shots a day. I could change that so that you get one at 12th level, and one additional one every four levels thereafter to a maximum of three at 20th level, which I think I will do.
One shot items that can win the fight are different than most other one shot items, which have a very low DC such as most scrolls. These poisons are even cheaper than most scrolls so it is not a bad deal. In a normal(non Dark Sun) game, this would not happen because anything forcing such a high DC is likely to cost more than 70 to 230 gp. Basically I expect for players to adapt to the setting.
There's actually nothing more effective (in the stun, paralysis, or dazed effects) than a mere hold person spell. The only thing that makes them any more effective at all is that hold person uses a Will save to negate, while these hypertoxins use a Fortitude save to negate. This puts Barbarians, Fighters, Rangers, Alchemists, Cavaliers, Gunslingers, Bloodragers, Brawlers, Hunters and Slayers at an advantage while saving versus your hypertoxins, while Bards, Sorcerers, Wizards, Oracles, Summoners, Witches, Arcanists, Investigators, and Shamans are at a disadvantage (and it's the opposite versus spells like hold person). It's almost an even swap (10 classes get an advantage, 9 have a disadvantage, the rest are all even in their saves, though we can discount the Gunslinger as it doesn't exist in the Athasian setting, so it is even), and the 9 classes that have the disadvantage are all spellcasting classes (minus the Bard in the Athasian setting), and therefore, likely have magical means of increasing their chances of shutting this down.
As for the DC's I would not use your example of the +40 at 12 as the measuring standard because that is a dedicated poison crafter. I think a decent effort is better. That is why I only assumed one feat and a +1 or +2 at level 7/8 for intelligence. If someone wants to have a +40 at level 12, the GM should have to deal with that. Even that +40 can be higher, and as more books come out it can probably get to the mid 50's by level 12. It can probably hit 50 now, but that is so abnormal I dont think we can do much about it.
So, what is the suggested remedy? I could lower the DC's by a few, or leave it as-is, knowing that if you really tried hard, you could go higher.
Just to clear things up my idea was not to make it too hard or too easy at any level. I fully understand that at some point people will move on form the wasp and scorpion poison, on to the purple worm poison, whichever one cost 1500 to buy.
We're absolutely clear on this. The debate makes the end product better.
Insanity Mist and Dragon Bile are the only ones that cost 1,500 to purchase (or 500 to craft). Purple Worm poison only costs 700 to purchase.
It might be better to not use the craft DC as a barrier. Magic items are assumed to be easily makable, and while you have to make the check, it is normally so easy, that it is trivial.
So... How about a reduction of 10 in the Craft DC?
Bard's can add 1/3 their level to the DC.
I'm all right with 1/4 level. It'll be easier to calculate for most folks.
So at level 7 using the wasp poison you get 18+2=20 DC
That is a CR 7 monster, not even a boss fight. Nothing else from the CRB is worth picking up.If you add a 2 from int, you get a 22 which s a CR 9 for an APL 7 party. At level 8 you can reliably make a +32 check so that leaves a +14 for hyper poisons. You can use a lower DC and get a better hyper poison affect meaning bosses are safe. This seems to be a good trade-off.
At 12 I had a +28/29 meaning taking 10 gives me a 39.
Purple worm poison by itself now has a DC of 28 which is about a 50/50 shot on a CR 15 monster. Once again I have about 15 to spend on a hyper poison. This however is the height of poison DC's.
From here on out with the 1/3 bard level.
You know I assumed that using half WBL it would be a mitigator, but assuming we are balancing for 20 we will still have the WBL of a level 17 character meaning a int score as a secondary score can get to 23 or higher. I wont account for crafting so I think +6 is a fair int modifier.24+6(1/3 bard level)+6=36. That is about right for a boss fight at level 20.
Level 12
24+4+3=31<---This is too high, but I think I have a solution below.
I'm not running another set of numbers right now, but I feel like we're good.
Basically the problem seems to be the sudden jump from the wasp poison to the purple worm poison, and it is only about 230 gp to craft so even having 54000 gp at level 12, which is half of what should be had that 230 is really cheap. That is a +6 DC jump with nothing in between. Other than it forcing 2 saves to get rid of it, it is not really all that impressive on its own, but it is great for the hyper poisons starting point. I think the price jump might stop people from making that one every day. I also think the time jump mentioned below will make it so that they may not always be able to have it exactly when they want it.*
I was actually not planning on having Character Wealth by Level cut in half. I was planning on having only two tracks; the NPC (Basic) WBL, and using the NPC (Heroic) WBL track as the PC WBL track. That means that a PC should have approximately 21,000 ceramic pieces at 12th level instead of 108,000 or 54,000.
This is intended to have several effects. First, magical items are going to be at a premium for PCs, since purchasing them is going to be problematic given your financial situation. They'll be more GM awards than "let's go over to the magic shoppe" acquisitions. At that point, it doesn't matter if you can find a magical item crafter (such as a cleric or templar), you probably don't have the coin to afford the grand item you were looking for. Second, it reflects just how poor everyone other than the sorcerer-kings actually are. The scarcity of resources will have a meaningful impact upon games. Purchasing a household (and possibly slaves) or building a fortress is a bigger feat of establishment, and setting down roots in any particular village or city-state is going to be both more difficult, and more notable.
I am thinking of having the normal version become a lesser version with a DC of 21, and the new normal version have a DC of 24. The cost would be more 600 gp more. That makes it so we dont have to reprice every hyperpoison or every poison. That also means that even if it is crafted the cost is about 400 gp. Changing the creation of the hyperpoison time to a minute or an 10 minutes might also be worth doing.
With the knowledge that spending 234 ceramic pieces (or just over 1% of your total wealth at 12th level) to craft Purple Worm poison will probably give the bard just a little more pause before brewing several doses of it for the day, I think that we can probably keep the crafting time to a full-round action. Use it when you need it, and don't sacrifice the coins when you don't.
Well, if we are using NPC wealth that changes things a lot then. I was using half-WBL the entire time.
With 21000 gp that purple worm poison wont just be a drop in the bucket since they will still need permanent gear.
So at level 8 spending 70 GP to craft a poison is not a small thing.
As for crafting, I say just add the bonus to craft for the class back in, and we should be good. They can pool the money for the poison if they want for a higher DC one, but I don't think taking chances at consumable "win the fights" will happen if they are using NPC wealth.
Also with regard to poison vs scrolls and buying consumable items to forces saves was that scrolls always have the lowest possible DC. So they are not likely to be worth paying for if you want someone to fail a save. The poisons on the other hand are likely to work. I am not saying they will buy still buy poisons. I am just clearing up my previous statement.
With NPC level wealth the PC's should be at APL-1(my approximation until I try to confirm it later on). In that case I retract my idea of making poison take longer than a full round action.
I think everything is good for now.
The only hiccup is that 6 DC jump if people actually pool money, but then you can suggest the lesser version and the normal version which I mentioned above.
One more thing since you keep bringing them up. Are clerics really so common that "they can handle it(poison)", is a good defense so others will also be safe?
If so the bard may have more trouble getting this to work than I thought. If not then I think we are set.
PS: If you ever added an additional +18 to all of the hyperpoison DC's I never downloaded that one.
Well, if we are using NPC wealth that changes things a lot then. I was using half-WBL the entire time.
With 21000 gp that purple worm poison wont just be a drop in the bucket since they will still need permanent gear.
So at level 8 spending 70 GP to craft a poison is not a small thing.
Indeed.
As for crafting, I say just add the bonus to craft for the class back in, and we should be good. They can pool the money for the poison if they want for a higher DC one, but I don't think taking chances at consumable "win the fights" will happen if they are using NPC wealth.
I think I'll leave the bonus out and keep the DCs lower. It seems silly to add in the bonus just to reach such high DCs.
Also with regard to poison vs scrolls and buying consumable items to forces saves was that scrolls always have the lowest possible DC. So they are not likely to be worth paying for if you want someone to fail a save. The poisons on the other hand are likely to work. I am not saying they will buy still buy poisons. I am just clearing up my previous statement.
Completely understood.
With NPC level wealth the PC's should be at APL-1(my approximation until I try to confirm it later on). In that case I retract my idea of making poison take longer than a full round action.
I figured that it probably wouldn't hurt to be able to manufacture poisons quickly.
I think everything is good for now.
Most excellent!
The only hiccup is that 6 DC jump if people actually pool money, but then you can suggest the lesser version and the normal version which I mentioned above.
I think that people will be more interested in getting their own gear than in purchasing supplies for the party bard to make poisons.
One more thing since you keep bringing them up. Are clerics really so common that "they can handle it(poison)", is a good defense so others will also be safe?
Clerics are common enough.
If so the bard may have more trouble getting this to work than I thought. If not then I think we are set.
That all depends upon the GM. However, a GM could overload a standard Pathfinder game with wizards if they wish, so that's all going to vary from tabletop to tabletop.
PS: If you ever added an additional +18 to all of the hyperpoison DC's I never downloaded that one.
I hadn't uploaded it. I was hoping that we'd reach an agreement before I put it up.
Thank you, once again, for your invaluable input!
Here's that Core Classes preview again, with updates.
Here are some Social traits for people on Athas, Bodhizen. You can use them as-is, tweak them, or ignore them entirely.
Athasian Noble: You have lived a life of wealth and privilege in one of the seven cities. This has afforded you time to study all manner of subjects that the commoners couldn't begin to comprehend. You gain a +1 trait bonus to Knowledge (Nobility) and Knowledge (History, and one of those skills becomes class skills for you.
Desert Traveler: Whether you are a member of an elven tribe, a Thri-kreen clutch, or a merchant caravan, you have spent a lot of time traversing the vast deserts of the Tablelands. As a result of being constantly on the move, you have learned how to shrug off fatigue and continue moving. You gain a +1 trait bonus to survival checks in desert terrain and a +1 trait bonus to Fortitude saves to avoid nonlethal damage from hot environments.
Disciple of the Way: You are a student of Psionics on Athas, known as "the Way." Your study of this cerebral art, whether or not you managed to manifest powers of your own, has taught you how to shield your mind against outside influence. You gain a +1 bonus to Will saves against Mind-effecting and Fear effects.
Forest Ridge Denizen: You originally came from the Forest Ridge, beyond the Ringing Mountains. Your time spent in one of Athas's last remaining green places, which has all manner of deadly predators in it, as taught you the value of going unseen. You gain a +2 bonus to Stealth, and Stealth is a class skill for you.
Gladiator: You've spent your life fighting both men and beasts in Athas's arenas, either voluntarily or as a slave forced into the roll. During those fights, you've become especially handy with some especially crowd-pleasing weapons. Choose one weapon with the performance quality. You gain proficiency with this weapon, a +1 trait bonus to Opportunity Attacks with this weapon, and a +1 trait bonus to performance combat checks with this weapon.
Silt Sailor: You have spent a lot of time sailing on the sea of silt. If you didn't quickly learn about the dangers of the sea, you would have ended up dead rather quickly. You gain a +2 trait bonus to Knowledge (Nature) and Knowledge (Geography) checks concerning the Sea of Silt, and you can make those checks untrained.
Templar: You are a member of the Templars, the vicious enforcers of the Sorcerer-Kings. Anyone who lives in the Tablelands knows and fears the authority that you wield. You gain a +1 trait bonus to Intimidate checks, and Intimidate becomes a class skill for you. You also start play with a badge of office that indicates your position as a Templar.
Veiled Alliance: You are a member of the Veiled Alliance, a group of renegade preservers who oppose the Sorcerer-Kings. Your time spent in this group has taught you how to disguise the spells you cast. You gain a +2 trait bonus to Bluff checks to disguise the Arcane Spells you cast as psionic powers, and Bluff becomes a class skill for you.
Voice of the Elements: You are a conduit for one of the great elements of Athas. This connection has granted you insight into ways that element manifests on Athas. Choose Fire, Water, Air, or Earth. You gain a +1 trait bonus to Knowledge (Planes), diplomacy, and intimidate checks with outsiders that have the subtype that you chose.
Here are some Social traits for people on Athas, Bodhizen. You can use them as-is, tweak them, or ignore them entirely.
Athasian Noble: You have lived a life of wealth and privilege in one of the seven cities. This has afforded you time to study all manner of subjects that the commoners couldn't begin to comprehend. You gain a +1 trait bonus to Knowledge (Nobility) and Knowledge (History, and one of those skills becomes class skills for you.)
I like this one, and I think I'm going to tweak it.
Desert Traveler: Whether you are a member of an elven tribe, a Thri-kreen clutch, or a merchant caravan, you have spent a lot of time traversing the vast deserts of the Tablelands. As a result of being constantly on the move, you have learned how to shrug off fatigue and continue moving. You gain a +1 trait bonus to survival checks in desert terrain and a +1 trait bonus to Fortitude saves to avoid nonlethal damage from hot environments.
Interesting.
Disciple of the Way: You are a student of Psionics on Athas, known as "the Way." Your study of this cerebral art, whether or not you managed to manifest powers of your own, has taught you how to shield your mind against outside influence. You gain a +1 bonus to Will saves against Mind-effecting and Fear effects.
This one will come in very handy.
Forest Ridge Denizen: You originally came from the Forest Ridge, beyond the Ringing Mountains. Your time spent in one of Athas's last remaining green places, which has all manner of deadly predators in it, as taught you the value of going unseen. You gain a +2 bonus to Stealth, and Stealth is a class skill for you.
I think this might be a halfling only trait.
Gladiator: You've spent your life fighting both men and beasts in Athas's arenas, either voluntarily or as a slave forced into the roll. During those fights, you've become especially handy with some especially crowd-pleasing weapons. Choose one weapon with the performance quality. You gain proficiency with this weapon, a +1 trait bonus to Opportunity Attacks with this weapon, and a +1 trait bonus to performance combat checks with this weapon.
This one might be a bit strong.
Silt Sailor: You have spent a lot of time sailing on the sea of silt. If you didn't quickly learn about the dangers of the sea, you would have ended up dead rather quickly. You gain a +2 trait bonus to Knowledge (Nature) and Knowledge (Geography) checks concerning the Sea of Silt, and you can make those checks untrained.
Interesting.
Templar: You are a member of the Templars, the vicious enforcers of the Sorcerer-Kings. Anyone who lives in the Tablelands knows and fears the authority that you wield. You gain a +1 trait bonus to Intimidate checks, and Intimidate becomes a class skill for you. You also start play with a badge of office that indicates your position as a Templar.
What do you envision the badge doing? Also, Intimidate is already a class skill for all templars.
Veiled Alliance: You are a member of the Veiled Alliance, a group of renegade preservers who oppose the Sorcerer-Kings. Your time spent in this group has taught you how to disguise the spells you cast. You gain a +2 trait bonus to Bluff checks to disguise the Arcane Spells you cast as psionic powers, and Bluff becomes a class skill for you.
Interesting. This would have to be limited to arcane spellcasters.
Voice of the Elements: You are a conduit for one of the great elements of Athas. This connection has granted you insight into ways that element manifests on Athas. Choose Fire, Water, Air, or Earth. You gain a +1 trait bonus to Knowledge (Planes), diplomacy, and intimidate checks with outsiders that have the subtype that you chose.
I don't know that outsiders are going to be all that common on Athas...
Thanks for the suggestions! When I get to that point, I'll definitely be using these in some form. If you have any other suggestions or materials, please feel free to keep them coming.
Boz I skimmed the latest pdf and did not see any drastic changes so everything is still ok for me. If you think I missed something just let me know.
Does the bard poison mechanic have any bypass for the super common 'delay poison' defense active almost as a standard above level 8?
Does the bard poison mechanic have any bypass for the super common 'delay poison' defense active almost as a standard above level 8?
Yes. Such things do not work against it. If it does not cure the poison, then it has no affect.
Boz I skimmed the latest pdf and did not see any drastic changes so everything is still ok for me. If you think I missed something just let me know.
I assume that you were talking to me, and I don't think that you've missed anything. Most of the rest of the conversion for core classes is pretty standard. Did you want to look over the base classes again?
This is my first time seeing the base classes. I will look them over.
The pdf on base classes has been read. Everything looks good.
How about the hybrid classes preview?
The desert strider ability for the hunter is a nice change. It makes sense thematically. I could not find any issues with the other classes either.
Excellent. Here is the economy preview.
It's downloaded. I will look over it later, and let you know what I think.
Feedback on the economy section:
Artist/Artisan says they will have at least one skill with 10 ranks. That means they have to be level 10, which seems like a really high level for someone in world so dangerous. Did you mean to say they have a +10 modifier?
The same questions goes for concubines. Even a 10th level expert is can give a 3rd level PC class trouble in a fight and it seems internally inconsistent to have people that are so low on the totem pole to potentially be that powerful.
To make this a littler short do you mean to say +X modifier instead of having them with that skill rank, which makes them high level NPC's.
I think it is better to have the soldiers as warriors. Even a world like dark sun I would think that PC class levels are rare, and most soldiers/guards have NPC class levels.
I would also have a reminder of what the fragile property is.
There is a phrase on page 46, and I don't understand it. It seems some was cut off.
This is the phrase--> "suffer a -3 penalty on attack and damage rolls (with a minimum damage of 1). Weapons that deal piercing or
slashing damage cannot be made of wood."
Why does the cahulaks cost less than the gythka?
The cahulak has a x3 crit instead of the gythka's x2. The cahulak also has reach, and has the trip property. It is also 17 pounds lighter, so it is less of a burden to carry.
Why is cold iron less expensive than normal steel?
Feedback on the economy section:
Artist/Artisan says they will have at least one skill with 10 ranks. That means they have to be level 10, which seems like a really high level for someone in world so dangerous. Did you mean to say they have a +10 modifier?
The same questions goes for concubines. Even a 10th level expert is can give a 3rd level PC class trouble in a fight and it seems internally inconsistent to have people that are so low on the totem pole to potentially be that powerful.
To make this a littler short do you mean to say +X modifier instead of having them with that skill rank, which makes them high level NPC's.
Works for me.
I think it is better to have the soldiers as warriors. Even a world like dark sun I would think that PC class levels are rare, and most soldiers/guards have NPC class levels.
Altered.
I would also have a reminder of what the fragile property is.
I feel that this is unnecessary.
There is a phrase on page 46, and I don't understand it. It seems some was cut off.
This is the phrase--> "suffer a -3 penalty on attack and damage rolls (with a minimum damage of 1). Weapons that deal piercing or
slashing damage cannot be made of wood."
That phrase is not cut off. It is a continuation of the sentence from the previous page.
Why does the cahulaks cost less than the gythka?
The cahulak has a x3 crit instead of the gythka's x2. The cahulak also has reach, and has the trip property. It is also 17 pounds lighter, so it is less of a burden to carry.
For the same reason that a longsword is less expensive than a rapier or a double orc axe costs more than a two-bladed sword. It's because of the material costs, not because of the attack statistics.
Why is cold iron less expensive than normal steel?
A couple of reasons, actually. Cold iron is more common than steel - you can just dig it out of the ground (if you can find it). Also, since iron itself is a huge challenge to get, there are very few smelting refineries to combine it with carbon. Since it's a rarity to process the iron into steel, it's naturally going to be more expensive. It's also true to the original setting, which didn't even have cold iron. I made the choice to make all iron into cold iron; steel is similar to Nexavaran steel, but is sturdier. I had forgotten to include that element.
Back to that phrase I thought was cut off. I did not understand it even when I read the words above it, and I read those before the last post I made.
Nevermind it makes sense now.
Back too this iron thing. If the players can locate iron they could have armor without the fragile quality?
Yes, I know wearing metal in the hot desert is bad for survival, but for the sake of this question we will assume the characters are willing to take the risk.
Maybe referencing the book the fragile rules is in would be a good idea. I know this information, but not everyone does especially if they mostly stay with the CRB.
Other than that I saw no further issues with the economy section.
Now I'm looking to include more feats and traits that would fit with the Dark Sun setting (and aren't in any other books). I have a few ideas of my own, but would appreciate suggestions. Thank you!
After that, the bestiary!
Now I'm looking to include more feats and traits that would fit with the Dark Sun setting (and aren't in any other books). I have a few ideas of my own, but would appreciate suggestions. Thank you!
After that, the bestiary!
I will see what I can come up with. I will also look at Ventnor's traits since I skipped over them.
I am just typing as I am reading.
The Gladiator trait is weaker overall than the one for stealth. A +2 bonus and making it a class skill is pretty good. +1 to attack of opportunity and to performance based combat checks, which are an optional rule that may never get used are not all that great.
Silt Sailor is giving a +2 trait bonus to two different skills. Is the goal here to go beyond the normal power of traits. Well then again they don't become class skills, and they don't upgrade so it seems legit.
I really like the Veiled Alliance trait, but the game has no general rule for using the bluff skill to disguise arcane spells. Does this mean you get a +2 when lying about not casting an arcane spell, or will bluff be used to make spellcraft checks more difficult to deal with?
I really like the Veiled Alliance trait, but the game has no general rule for using the bluff skill to disguise arcane spells. Does this mean you get a +2 when lying about not casting an arcane spell, or will bluff be used to make spellcraft checks more difficult to deal with?
I would imagine that it would mean that you can use Bluff to convince others that what you just did was not cast an arcane spell, but it was instead a psionic power, or something. Most arcane casters now receive Sleight of Hand as a class skill to conceal their spellcasting anyway.
Perhaps we need to codify this more. Wraithstrike, do you want to take a swing at some rules for spotting when an arcane spellcaster has cast a spell?
Ventnor: Thank you for the traits. I was able to use all of them in some fashion or another except for Templar, because that one doesn't actually do anything except give a +1 trait bonus to Intimidate. Intimidate is a class skill already for all templars, and you never answered my question about the badge.
Thanks, everybody. I'm going to need to get some names of folks who have contributed to the success of this conversion for crediting purposes. Please message me privately with your information if you would like to receive credit for contributing an idea or some material.
I am just typing as I am reading.
The Gladiator trait is weaker overall than the one for stealth. A +2 bonus and making it a class skill is pretty good. +1 to attack of opportunity and to performance based combat checks, which are an optional rule that may never get used are not all that great.
Silt Sailor is giving a +2 trait bonus to two different skills. Is the goal here to go beyond the normal power of traits. Well then again they don't become class skills, and they don't upgrade so it seems legit.
I really like the Veiled Alliance trait, but the game has no general rule for using the bluff skill to disguise arcane spells. Does this mean you get a +2 when lying about not casting an arcane spell, or will bluff be used to make spellcraft checks more difficult to deal with?
They were all first drafts.
I really like the Veiled Alliance trait, but the game has no general rule for using the bluff skill to disguise arcane spells. Does this mean you get a +2 when lying about not casting an arcane spell, or will bluff be used to make spellcraft checks more difficult to deal with?I would imagine that it would mean that you can use Bluff to convince others that what you just did was not cast an arcane spell, but it was instead a psionic power, or something. Most arcane casters now receive Sleight of Hand as a class skill to conceal their spellcasting anyway.
Perhaps we need to codify this more. Wraithstrike, do you want to take a swing at some rules for spotting when an arcane spellcaster has cast a spell?
Ventnor: Thank you for the traits. I was able to use all of them in some fashion or another except for Templar, because that one doesn't actually do anything except give a +1 trait bonus to Intimidate. Intimidate is a class skill already for all templars, and you never answered my question about the badge.
Thanks, everybody. I'm going to need to get some names of folks who have contributed to the success of this conversion for crediting purposes. Please message me privately with your information if you would like to receive credit for contributing an idea or some material.
Glad I could help!
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I couldn't tell if anyone brought this up, but does the OP know about the Dragon Kings project? It's system agnostic and is put together by Timothy Brown (one of the co-creators of Dark Sun to satisfy his creative "jones" for more content). I figure knowing of its existence might be useful and could serve as an aid to help figure things out, especially since there is a Pathfinder version out (last I heard, he was looking to get a Savage Worlds version out there as well).
I couldn't tell if anyone brought this up, but does the OP know about the Dragon Kings project? It's system agnostic and is put together by Timothy Brown (one of the co-creators of Dark Sun). I figure knowing of its existence might be useful and could serve as an aid to help figure things out, especially since there is a Pathfinder version out (last I heard, he was looking to get a Savage Worlds version out there as well).
It has been mentioned here before. The general consensus is that it fails to capture the essence of the original Dark Sun setting, hence this more comprehensive conversion.
Really, the only component missing from the conversion so far is Occult Adventures classes being fully fleshed out. Their side of the wild talent chart is pretty slim at present.
This conversion includes races, classes, defiling magic, feats, traits, economy & equipment, write-ups of 10 city-states (including Eldaarich, Guistenal and Kurn), and will include a bestiaru, and possibly some setting-specific spells or psionic powers.
I feel like I could do a more complete gazetteer, but the goal is to convert the setting, not to provide a complete product that eliminates the need to purchase sourcebooks where you can find them. As it stands already without the bestiary, the conversion guide is running fifty-plus pages.
I really like the Veiled Alliance trait, but the game has no general rule for using the bluff skill to disguise arcane spells. Does this mean you get a +2 when lying about not casting an arcane spell, or will bluff be used to make spellcraft checks more difficult to deal with?I would imagine that it would mean that you can use Bluff to convince others that what you just did was not cast an arcane spell, but it was instead a psionic power, or something. Most arcane casters now receive Sleight of Hand as a class skill to conceal their spellcasting anyway.
Perhaps we need to codify this more. Wraithstrike, do you want to take a swing at some rules for spotting when an arcane spellcaster has cast a spell?
By the normal rules you need to see him cast a spell in order for spellcraft to be usable, and even then perception distance rules apply to the DC. <----That is for identification of a spell.
However there are no hard rules to know when someone has cast a spell. If a spell has an obvious observable physical affect such as fireball most GM's will assume that most people will know a spell was cast. If it is something such as charm person with no visual affect, it might vary by GM, depending on how common magic is in their world.
What we can do is assume that most people can recognize spellcasting when they see it, even if they don't know what you are casting. If accused of casting an arcane spell the caster can try to bluff the person to say they casting a divine spell or using psionics. That is a time when that trait would be useful. Since psionics does not have components, I suspect most people will try to bluff and say it was a divine spell however.
If a spell has an obvious observable physical affect such as fireball most GM's will assume that most people will know a spell was cast. If it is something such as charm person with no visual affect, it might vary by GM, depending on how common magic is in their world.
What we can do is assume that most people can recognize spellcasting when they see it, even if they don't know what you are casting. If accused of casting an arcane spell the caster can try to bluff the person to say they casting a divine spell or using psionics. That is a time when that trait would be useful. Since psionics does not have components, I suspect most people will try to bluff and say it was a divine spell however.
This is where I was, and maybe I was jumping ahead, but I felt that someone was going to ask for something more, so I batted it over to you while I was out running errands and catching up on popular culture.
Thanks for the critical eye.
How are you handing the conversion of the source material non-weapon proficiency - Water Find?
I am running a Dark Sun pathfinder game right now (we've just started, only a couple sessions) and this is of course an important skill for characters to have. I haven't got anything on paper yet but I was thinking about making a list of Survival Check DCs dependent upon which type of terrain the characters find themselves in (Stoney Barrens, Sandy Wastes, Mountains, Scrub Plains, Rocky Badlands, Salt Flats).
Thoughts?
Likely survival will be used and the cleric spell that creates water still exist.
Edit: I misread your post. That is a good idea for those without clerics or anyone else with that spell.
How are you handing the conversion of the source material non-weapon proficiency - Water Find?
I am running a Dark Sun pathfinder game right now (we've just started, only a couple sessions) and this is of course an important skill for characters to have. I haven't got anything on paper yet but I was thinking about making a list of Survival Check DCs dependent upon which type of terrain the characters find themselves in (Stoney Barrens, Sandy Wastes, Mountains, Scrub Plains, Rocky Badlands, Salt Flats).
Thoughts?
That's an excellent question, and I do plan on making a brief table with Survival modifiers on Athas. Finding water isn't something that you can just take a 10 on and be fine, and finding water is really the big issue.
If you have suggestions, I'm open to them, but right now, I'm sorting through monsters (I've finished Bestiary 1, Bestiary 2 and Bestiary 3) to list as possible monsters to encounter. Then I was moving on to writing up Athasian-specific monsters.
Update: Bestiary Lists are finished. New monsters are in-progress.
Athasian Monster Progress: (I may cut down this list a bit; we'll see how it pans out.)
- Baazrag (Complete)
- Baazrag, Boneclaw (Complete)
- Belgoi (Complete)
- Braxat (Complete)
- Cilops (Complete)
- Critic Lizard
- Crodlu
- Dragon of Tyr
- Dune Reaper
- Erdlu
- Gaj
- Giant (Humanoid & Beast-Head)
- Gith
- Inix
- Jankx
- Jhakar
- Jozhal
- Kank
- Kes'trekel
- Lirr
- Mekillot
- Mulworm
- Pterrax
- Rasclinn
- Razorwing
- Sand Howler
- Spinewyrm
- Yallix
- Z'tal
If anyone wants to help me to find high-quality full colour pictures of any of these monsters, that would be greatly appreciated.
Best wishes!
Athasian Monster Progress: (I may cut down this list a bit; we'll see how it pans out.)
- Baazrag (Complete)
- Baazrag, Boneclaw (Complete)
- Belgoi (Complete)
- Braxat (Complete)
- Cilops (Complete)
- Critic Lizard
- Crodlu
- Dragon of Tyr
- Dune Reaper
- Erdlu
- Gaj
- Giant (Humanoid & Beast-Head)
- Gith
- Inix
- Jankx
- Jhakar
- Jozhal
- Kank
- Kes'trekel
- Lirr
- Mekillot
- Mulworm
- Pterrax
- Rasclinn
- Razorwing
- Sand Howler
- Spinewyrm
- Yallix
- Z'tal
If anyone wants to help me to find high-quality full colour pictures of any of these monsters, that would be greatly appreciated.
Best wishes!
I will see what I can do, but I don't know if you are legally allowed to put the photos online or into any documents you are distributing. The people who did the 3e version of Dark Sun had permission from WoTC from what I understand.
I will see what I can do, but I don't know if you are legally allowed to put the photos online or into any documents you are distributing. The people who did the 3e version of Dark Sun had permission from WoTC from what I understand.
Permission to put pictures in, or permission to put WotC's pictures in? I am not looking to put WotC's pictures in.
I will see what I can do, but I don't know if you are legally allowed to put the photos online or into any documents you are distributing. The people who did the 3e version of Dark Sun had permission from WoTC from what I understand.Permission to put pictures in, or permission to put WotC's pictures in? I am not looking to put WotC's pictures in.
WoTC's pictures. I will try to find some good stock photos. Occasionally the deviant art artist are ok with images being used as long as no profit is being made. Some however are more strict. I will see what I can find.
Excellent. Here is the economy preview.
I have a question about steel. The rule of thumb for costs in the Dark Sun 2e core rules was this: All nonmetal items cost 1% of the price listed. All metal items cost the price listed. This is of course based on the typical gold standard of D&D. My question about your conversion is this:
Why are steel items 20x cost instead of 100x ? It seems like a pretty hefty "discount" on the highly sought-after steel, compared to the source material's emphasis on the % value scale.
I've looked around your alias' page and I don't see any "wish list" Dark Sun Conversion addition yet. The thread is getting pretty long and I haven't had time to comb through it as thoroughly as I'd like to. I'm sorta just finding stuff as I go along, but I'd love to get a more comprehensive look at your content thus far. Forgive me if someone has asked this, or if you've already accommodated such a request, but would it be possible for you to please make a compilation of links to your works in progress? (either here in the thread, or maybe on your alias' wish list.)
I'm enjoying this thread and the spirit behind it by the way.