Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Just a Mort wrote: Kurgress is interesting, but I think he wouldn't be killing a downed demon, he'd probably go, "hey let him gain a few more levels and we can get another bar room brawl!" and just leave the demon there, even if it has fast healing.
Demon is too likely to cheat at any contest. I could perhaps see a Kurgess worshipper doing that with a Devil but not a demon.
Although Int and Wisdom are quite frequently dump stats on paladins, I'm not sure any would leave a regenerating evil creature alone if there was a possibility of it injuring innocent lives later.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2s2jc?A-Righteous-Path-A-Wrath-of-the-Righteous
This is a link to mine and a friend of mine's Wrath of the Righteous character backgrounds. It is long but this seems like the thread where it might be appreciated. If anyone gets the time to read I would love to hear what you thought.
Thank you.
For the Light, for the Three!
I played a fallen paladin once. The other PC's were all first time players, it was just me and the GM who knew the game. My character took all kinds of whacky feats just to show the other characters what you could do in a Human-based game.
Because they were all new to the game, they ended up falling into the classic "I'm so powerful I can do what I want" trap. When my character discovered that we'd inadvertently started a war, he lost faith - and fell.
It was AWESOME playing as a fallen paladin.
I agree with the OP, having it be part of the narrative is a much better way to look at it.
Lays hands upon this thread to obtain new voices and opinions...
Two perfect examples of Paladins not being sticks in the mud. I was playing one in 4th ed. Bear with me I think you will find it amusing. He was like any other man with needs so he went out and hired a hooker. GM said okay having no problem I was actually doing this. Now what happened was just after I finished her friend stuck a dagger at the family jewels and they proceeded to rob me of my hard earned gold. Needless to say I didn't go looking for hookers after that. GM still got a chuckle trying to tempt me.
Second Paladin story. Friend of mine was playing him. Now I hadn't been playing in this campaign long in fact just rejoining when this happened. The setting was in a Forgotten Realms kingdom with a rather reserved and very Lawful Good Dwarf king. So we had all met with the king convincing him that our Drow companion was actually a good guy. Our Paladin which had spoken on the Drow's behalf then asked. "Got any whores in your city?" Before anyone could react all of us stunned the paladin had asked this added. "Is your daughter there available?" The rest of the party all pretty much ran away from the Paladin expecting every good god and the king to nuclear smite him. Our GM was very merciful since he didn't get smited although they did beat the hell out of him and made him stay outside the kingdom out in the cold north.
Another friend has played Paladins more like a mercenary then anything being more of a dick that way then saying no we shouldn't do bad immoral things.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
I played a atheist paladin. Oath of vengeance human, I played him very border line in alignment...played him pretty close to ghost rider...almost fell a few times. Then the new GM started and told me that a paladin could never be a atheist.. I ended up dropping the character since the concept was null and void. (Was going for a good man without a god needing to be there to tell him what to do)
I return to my old thread, beloved still to my heart.
So this thread reminded me of a NPC I've been thinking about making for a homebrew setting. Essentially, before the events of the campaign, the "party" was five heroes set out with defeating some impossibly powerful Lich. Along the way, however, the Lich essentially drops an Armageddon mana bomb spell that rips a hole into another plane for a few seconds. The paladin sees things inside of the hole, and the things see him. Almost compulsively, as they finish the campaign and defeat the Lich, the paladin is trying to learn everything he can about the things he saw. A Devil Queen approaches him, one that, while can manipulate the truth is physically incapable of uttering a falsehood. And essentially tells him that the mana bomb was a giant lighthouse that attracted the attention of the Zerg/Tyranids/whatever you want to call them.
The paladin continues to search into this, and eventually comes to the conclusion that there is no force on the planet, no collation that can stand against them. If they arrive, every living thing on the planet will be eaten. There's only one being that he can think of that has any sort of army large enough or powerful enough to stand against him- the Devil Queen he spoke to. And to him, the only choice he could make was to bring her and her armies into the world. She wouldn't lift a finger to defend a dominion that wasn't hers, and even if it meant he couldn't be a paladin anymore, he wasn't willing to risk every man, woman, child of every race be devoured. He would keep himself in good enough standing with the Queen such that he be treated as an Infernal Lord- so that at least there would be ONE bastion of the world he fought for. The demons would enslave everyone. The Zerg would eat everyone.
Hmm, that could make for an interesting story idea I admit. Having a paladin choose to fall, so as to save the life of everyone on the planet.
Yet, if I may ask... what of those of the Celestial planes? The Agathion, the Angel, the Archon, and the Azata? Surely they would be willing to help save the Material Plane with many of them powerful enough to fight off this alien threat.
What of the deities of Golarion, lawful, good, chaotic, and even evil... surely most of them would not want all those on the planet killed? All there followers and worshipers lost.
I love my paladins, and I've played a few, all distinctly different.
Ammarron, the tiefling divine hunter paladin, who worships Sarenrae and is a big fan of the doctrine of redemption as she allowed him to rise to be a paladin despite his infernal heritage.
Rahmiel, the aasimar divine hunter/hospitaller paladin of Andoletta, who uses his powers to heal the group and make them harder to attack much more often than he strikes at the enemy himself. He's made quite a name for himself as a diplomat as well.
Kiroshka, the half orc lady redeemer paladin of Arshea. She is a diplomat and a believer on converting anyone who can be redeemed by ... doing what Arshea does :)
Quinray, the half elf multiclassed eldritch scion magus/paladin of Yuelral, out to keep evil magics out of the hands of those who would use them do do more evil if he cannot see them destroyed.
None are the stereotyped lawful stupid type.
I love playing Paladins, they are likely my favourite class to roleplay.
I once played a Paladin who had a sentient lamp that could light any darkness. He wanted nothing more than to bring light and hope to a world that had no sun and where most people lived underground. After a long series of events he ended up destroying the world, the lamp slowing convinced him that he needed to return life to the sun. Turns out the sun was too close to the planet and burnt it to a crisp. He wasn't forced to do anything and my GM gave him chances to turn back, but from what my character knew he thought he was saving the world and he would stop at nothing to do it. His party trusted him and supported him until the end in the same way he did for them.
JonathonWilder wrote: Hmm, that could make for an interesting story idea I admit. Having a paladin choose to fall, so as to save the life of everyone on the planet.
Yet, if I may ask... what of those of the Celestial planes? The Agathion, the Angel, the Archon, and the Azata? Surely they would be willing to help save the Material Plane with many of them powerful enough to fight off this alien threat.
What of the deities of Golarion, lawful, good, chaotic, and even evil... surely most of them would not want all those on the planet killed? All there followers and worshipers lost.
It's usually a rule in my homebrew settings that the Higher Planes cannot directly intervene.
This is my current Character, a Paladin of a Godess named Numara.
It is a long read.
Mara Caervon
Personality;
As a child Mara was a spirited lass with a curiosity for exploration. She also enjoyed storytelling and music. More interested in playing with the boys her own age, or holder, especially her elder brothers, she was often seen on the training grounds were they practiced sword fighting, archery and riding.
As she grew older her passion for exploration and storytelling grew. Making up grand plans to travel around the world with her own theatre, telling stories and fascinate entire crowds with heroic deeds of heroic characters in the long forgotten past.
All these plans became a distant dream after a life altering accident which would forever change her and her course in life.
She still finds comedy, theatre and stories immensely entertaining though.
Background;
Many, if not most would scoff at you if you ever said that Growing up as nobility was hard.
But actually, it was.
Endless hours of learning to read and write, the study of numbers, and all the tests that followed was not a practice Mara really mastered, nor enjoyed. There were off course exceptions. History, Heraldry and religion were subjects she loved.
But what annoyed her the most was how her parents involved her in their politics.
The seemingly endless hours of practicing how to eat and greet proper, lessons in etiquette, and plans of marriage. The last one infuriated her.
She didn’t want to marry some stupid boy of their choosing.
Every time the subject of marriage was brought up, Mara would rebel.
Though harmless in her rebellion she nonetheless became the thorn in her family’s facade.
She wanted to be outside, see the city, meet new friends and explore rather than bowing to her family’s demands. And this is how she met her first true friend who would later change her life and straighten her path towards true goodness.
Tobias was his name.
An orphaned boy at her own age of 12, a child growing up at an orphanage, living without any of the privileges Mara enjoyed.
One of the good things he had was his caretaker named Bianca.
She was a kind and benevolent woman who did what she could to take care of the children.
Mara used to sneak out with food and sweets, stolen from her kitchen and bring this to Tobias in the afternoon after she was done with her study and chores.
Over time their friendship grew, but would soon take a turn none of them expected.
One evening Tobias had managed to sneak away with some flint and tinder. An exciting thing to play with, but a toy that came with dire consequences.
By accident they lit the orphanage on fire. Chaos ensued and in minutes the orphanage was consumed in an inferno. Luckily all of the children survived but Bianca, the caretaker got badly burned and died hours later from the wounds she suffered while saving the children.
While the other kids, including Tobias was taken away by the city guard, Mara remained.
Bianca, seeing Mara there at her side, clearly consumed by regret, grief and sorrow lifted her hand and touched Mara’s cheek while saying;
“Do not let this burden you. There is nothing to forgive! Remember this, when things get rough and you are weighted by sadness and despair, clutch this, my pendant of Numara, hold it tight to your chest and she will comfort you as she took care of me and the other children. And remember, that even though this tragedy happened, you were a beacon of hope and light in Tobias’s heart, and you gave both me and him hope. You showed us that there are individuals among the nobility that do not care about family names or riches. You saw the truth. No matter name or rank, every individual has value. I may not be your mother, but it would bring me great pride if you were my daughter.
They shared some more words before Bianca finally passed away.
Mara was never able to completely forgive herself, vowing instead that for as long as she draws breath, she will be the beacon of hope for all children growing up without parents or is unfortunate in other ways.
Realizing that given a slight chance every child has tremendous potential for good and prosperity. They, like everyone else just need support and care to flourish.
She never saw Tobias again, and this continued to be an empty part of her heart which she never was able to truly fill.
She continued to venture into the city, giving away toys, food and clothes she no longer needed to the unfortunate children in orphanages.
As the years passed she became more and more at odds with her family. Their constant disdain for her preference for the poor rather than the rich and pompous provoked them endlessly.
Mara, having made up her mind years ago did not relent from her chosen path.
At the age of 18 she joined the city guard. Signing a binding contract for three years of service, feeling that she would be more in tune the common folk, and able to really help rather than eating luxurious dinners and listening to hopeless politics and bickering.
It was during the first year of service that her divine gifts started to manifest.
One late evening standing watch, she and couple of other guards stopped a merchant caravan for routine inspection before they would be allowed to leave the city.
Mara, feeling that something was off with the merchant continued to prod and question. Something made the hair on her neck rise. Something didn’t seem right. After a while of questioning he finally stumbled in his lies and was caught smuggling children and stolen goods out the city.
She had some more success sniffing out untrustworthy people, and as this power grew, visible physical changes appeared on Mara. The color of her eyes changed from green to sparkly blue.
Her family, clearly disturbed by this change hired scholars to research her strange change in eye color, but no one knew the exact reason.
Some concluded that Numara, Mara’s goddess, a young deity still searching for her true place among the pantheons is growing, goes through phases and changes, and so I turn does Mara.
Only time will tell where this divine bond eventually will take her.
After a while, her officer, impressed with her apparent ability for sniff out evildoers promoted her to the rank of sergeant, a title really uncommon among woman. These acts of good brought renown and a measure of pride to her family. Maybe there was hope for Mara after all.
Present;
To strengthen the community and good, Mara realized early on that the first step you need to take is to welcome everyone. Make them feel at home and relaxed and over time they will by themselves see the benefit of including others into the warmth.
Now, still employed in the city guard, but no longer bound by contract Mara can in the afternoon often be found at different taverns where she and her colleagues enjoy their free time with cards, darts, song, stories and laughter. Everyone is welcome and everyone is included if they decide to tag along on the fun.
Even though she outranks most of her close colleagues she still maintains a humble demeanor and commands through friendship and loyalty rather than pure authority.
At times, she still brings freshly baked bread and sweets away from home to her work.
She loves how it brings pure joy and content to those who do not sleep in a castle, but in a barracks.
Today, most of her salary is donated to orphanages around in the city.
The income she had while under contract was spent on buying back the property were on which she met her first true friend. Now, thanks to her, a new promising orphanage has been built on top of the ashes of the old one.
If you knew who you were looking for, she would be easy to spot. A young beautiful woman in her early 20’s, around 5.7ft, outgoing, boisterous and an energetic demeanor.
She has a pair of glistening blue eyes and a big smile is often seen plastered on her face. She would be hard to miss.
The story so far In-game.
Mara is currently Lvl 2 and has just been dragged into a huge case of corruption and crime inside the City guard. She is working tirelessly in coordination with other instances of law in the city in order to find the source of mental manipulation that may be the cause of this catastrophe.
(Guards were running around the marketplace beating up merchants and stealing their stuff, and when these tradesmen lay bloodied in the mud they were carried off and put in jail for no apparent reason.)
A close friend of Mara, a younger man named Locke Amarand(played by a friend, a character sworn by oath to be loyal to mine) was also partially in on this whole clusterf%#!, but through careful mental manipulation by Caran (my fiancé) he no longer remembers who was with him. (yup, this is rough)
Through testimony from the victims I got a perfect description of Locke and had to arrest him.
For the moment she does not know that the source of all this is her own fiancé, Caran.
Caran is the only son of a family closely allied with Mara’s. This is a political marriage set in motion to strengthen both families politically.
He, apparently out of curiosity wanted to see how he could really screw me and the city guard over. He actually instigated this whole ordeal, and they are to be married in 14 months. Mara's Fiancé, Caran is played by another friend of mine. (yeh, I know, he is probably evil as FF, but I have no chance of knowing this yet since we are only lvl 2.)
As mentioned above, Locke has now been Caught and found partially guilty through clever wording of questions with a "Zone truth" spell cast on him by a Priestess of a god representing law and justice.
He is only atm partially guilty because his mind and memories have clearly been tampered with.
His case will worsen If we manage to restore his memories though, because he was in on this and stole things while the guards beat the merchants up.
Mara is currently wracked with disappointment over her friends actions. It was she that got him the job as a city guard, it was her words that got him hired, and it was she who trained him. Locke tried to excuse his actions, saying that he was afraid the guards would beat him up, but he knows that no guard would dare lay a finger on him. He is after all nobility.
In my game I handwave alignments out completely and reduce the paladin's code to a cleric's. As long as he serves his god's general agenda, it's all good.
A gaming table, in my opinion, has never been a good place to debate ethics. It is generally not a good place to discuss ethics where one guy can unilaterally decide "truth" and punish others for it.
My favorite way to play a Paladin is to play someone who is not a zealot or even particularly religious (except insofar as religions do good for people) but someone who is such a fundamentally good person that their getting an advance on their future karmic rewards. Someone who is so admirable and virtuous that the universe itself is invested in their continued survival.
Think Cactoid Jim or Chris Pratt from Jurassic World for examples.
Velera wrote: Mara Caervon, a Paladin of a Goddess named Numara. You did not specify, but this very much sounds like you're playing an Oathbound Paladin who swore the Oath of the People's Counsel. Is that correct?
All in all it sounds like she would be a very interesting and we'll developed character, one who's be very helpful within an adventuring party.
Jonathon Wilder wrote: Velera wrote: Mara Caervon, a Paladin of a Goddess named Numara. You did not specify, but this very much sounds like you're playing an Oathbound Paladin who swore the Oath of the People's Counsel. Is that correct?
All in all it sounds like she would be a very interesting and we'll developed character, one who's be very helpful within an adventuring party. Hi Jonathan.
Thank you.
This is a homebrew Campaign set in a homebrewed world.
Numara is a godess dedicated to luck, prosperity, curiosity, society, inventions and general goodness :P
Mara is actually a Sacred servant Paladin dedicated to society and the protection of the poor and downtrodden within it.
We focus alot more on the roleplay aspect rather than the rules and archetypes.
She has not swore any oath to any council, but was promoted to her current rank within the city guard because of her current and previous deeds instead.
You may think "this is strange, a city guard who does not swear any oath?". Yes, one of the perks of being nobility i guess, even though she does not like it.
You could call her a lonely agent of a godess not yet mature. Numara is still young, and her place amongst the gods is not yet set in stone.
She would without doubt be a very helpfull addition to any adventuring party as long as the moral compass of the group worked :P
This unfortunately is not the case in her current group :(
Locke Amarand will probably loose a friend if his involvement in the marketplace crimespree ever surfaces.
And as for her fiancè? I dare not think about it. It would be a catastrophe. I am not sure how she would take this.
I still look forward to it though :P Will she forgive him and try to show him a better path, or will he be left behind, a planned marriage left in ruin and an alliance between two families shattered?
The reason why I asked is that is because the Oath of the People's Counsel actually provides a paladin with access to bardic performance. More, it is an oath that shows the paladin has a closer bond or connection to the common folk.
I'm curious, given what you've described, what is it that the fiance has done that if she found out would ruin the relationship? I admit, the first thing comes to mind is that perhaps he cheated on her with another and then hid this from her. A second consideration is that of some sort of corrupt action or behavior as common among some nobility.
The "Falling as Going For Broke" meme isn't really someone who's describing themselves as a good person, but more like a person who's tendency to dark impulses is kept in check by a code.
It's more like that speech The Doctor gives to Madam Kovarion.
Madame Kovarian: The anger of a good man is not a problem. Good men have too many rules.
The Doctor: [turns his head slowly to look at her] Good men don't need rules. Today is not the day to find out why I have so many. Hmm?
Madame Kovarian: Give the order. Give the order, Colonel: "Run away."
Jonathon Wilder wrote: The reason why I asked is that is because the Oath of the People's Counsel actually provides a paladin with access to bardic performance. More, it is an oath that shows the paladin has a closer bond or connection to the common folk.
I'm curious, given what you've described, what is it that the fiance has done that if she found out would ruin the relationship? I admit, the first thing comes to mind is that perhaps he cheated on her with another and then hid this from her. A second consideration is that of some sort of corrupt action or behavior as common among some nobility.
I can have a close bond with the common folk through the roleplaying aspect of my character. It is more than enough for me :)
As i wrote further up if i remember correctly, her fiancè instigated the whole violent scene at the marketplace. It was he (Caran) that manipulated the guards into violence, and while the guards beat up the merchants, Caran and Locke stole most of the valuables that the merchants were selling.
If Mara would ever find out what kind of a bully and a thief Caran is, it would not be a good thing for their relationship nor the bonds that their families wants to create.
Indeed the DM is the key to almost everything really.
Playing a chosen one paladin right now, where one of his childhood friends is a cleric of the whispering way, one can see from a mile away how this would end badly.
But the GMs allows the player to be neutral even being a necromancer and my paladin mostly stays near to keep her under constant watch, should the undead run out of control, i cut them down, should she turn evil, i will cut her down with no hesitation too.
This allows mostly for my PC to watch over her actions and the GM handwaving the "raising undead should be instatly punished" thing and thus the group remains going foward.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Paladin story/Question.
I once had a discussion with a friend of mine who was New to DMing and was kind of struggling with the ideal of "Lawful Good" Like how does a Paladin actually be lawful good. If Laws get in the way of being good some times.
So I ask him to give me a example.
DM's Example: Your walking along, you pass a two story house. You here some one from the top floor scream out a window. "HELP HELP MURDERER!"
You check the door and its locked. To help the person you will need to break into the house... breaking a law to do good, how do you deal with this as a Paladin.
I could at this point see where his hang up was.
It was on a very easy to make and simple mistake, not understanding how being lawful works. See because the Paladin does not have to always follow the law all the time every time. (That's Lawful,Neutral) The Paladin simply must "Be Lawful"
My Answer: "I check to see if there is anyone around, if there is I yell at them to go get the guards/magistrate." -I.E. I call the cops-
"After that I kick in the door -breaking a law- run up stairs and hopefully save some one's life. Maybe even catch a bad guy. (Or kill them If I must) After that I make sure the victim is at least not dying, I help them down stairs and I wait for the Authorities to get there."
"When they get there, I tell them what happened, I explain WHY I broke into the house. At that point if they say."
Police: Good job! But you did break in, please come down to the station while we sort this out and get all the info.
Me: "Absolutely!"
If they say "Good job, don't worry about the Breaking and Entering" Great!
If they say "Well you did break the law, its a 50 gold fine, but don't worry, time served no record." Good.
If they say. "That's a 50 gold fine, pay up." I pay the damn fine...
----
There is a very big difference between breaking a law and being unlawful. Laws are about responsibility and consequences. And Intentions are very important.
He kind of got my point and took away from it.
"Problems are from being to strict with the whole moral code thing. And don't be to Happy with the Fall Hammer for Paladins."
|
2 people marked this as a favorite.
|
I've recently encountered an interesting reply on reddit within another Paladin dilemma thread; it was very awesome.
Allow me to quote it here:
/u/john_stuart_kill, Ethics PHD wrote: [Preceding question: Is it time to get rid of the gotcha quests for paladins?]
Totally. Full disclosure: I'm a PhD in ethics, and I think all the time about morality in Pathfinder. Not surprisingly, my first character ever was a paladin, and it remains a favourite class of mine.
Anyway...it is absolutely bananas that people interpret the paladin alignment restriction in such a way as to even make this a possibility. Granted, the RAW on paladin alignment restriction is rather ambiguous (big surprise: most conceptual issues which involve morality tend to be at least somewhat complex)...but this interpretation is extremely uncharitable in the least.
Paladins receive their powers, and the ensuing alignment restriction, from their devotion to a deity and that deity's code of conduct (outside Golarion, this can of course be to an abstract concept and not necessarily to a deity...but for simplicity's sake, let's just talk about it with regard to deities; everything I'm going to say will basically apply to abstract concept devotion anyway).
Now, it's not like everybody's born a paladin and most just eventually lose their abilities; only the most dedicated and devout and strong-willed ever become even 1st-level paladins. These are people who are exceptional enough to have been more or less hand-picked by their deities for paladinhood, primarily due to their uprightness and dedication to the right and the good, to crib a bit from W.D. Ross. And it's not like these folks, once they become paladins, just put their feet up and rest on their laurels. By their nature, and motivated by the favour shown by their god, paladins will, for the most part, continue to strive to do good, to better themselves and the world around them. This is neither a coincidence nor a contingent fact; this is part of what it means to be a paladin.
Of course, some paladins fall: they lose their faith, or are genuinely corrupted, or just can't maintain their commitment, or somehow fall otherwise. They are mortal; they are fallible, even though they are selected largely because they are less fallible than most. Some might fall by way of terrible trauma, some by irresistible greed or ambition or other temptation, some by hubris, some by simple world-weariness. For whatever reason, fallen paladins no longer show the dedication and discipline and strength of character that made them paladins in the first place. In such cases, one can only imagine the disappointment felt by their gods, who put such trust in these mortals, only to see it betrayed...
Now, with all that in mind...we're supposed to believe that a god would strip a paladin of her powers for some kind of "gotcha" technicality, some immoral act committed in an impossible scenario? That's nonsense. There's not some obtuse contract full of legalese and surprise clauses in place: a paladin is so by virtue of her own virtue, her character, and not just her actions. A god cannot (and would not, since gods aren't stupid petty children) expect a paladin to control the whole world, such that she would never get herself into a morally difficult or troublesome situation; indeed, if anything, a god should expect that its paladins would deliberately put themselves into such situations, since it's these circumstances which most call for a paladin. And when difficult struggles like these don't turn out to be as clean and perfect and neatly tied up as we would want (another big surprise: that's life), forcing the paladin into a difficult choice, we're supposed to believe that a god would punish its paladins for making the attempt?
Because, of course, that's the real test: making the attempt. What a god can and should expect of its paladins (and, of course, since we're talking about paladins, we're talking about lawful/good gods, it should go without saying) is that they struggle with morality, that they strive to be better, that they constantly examine their consciences and their codes of conduct and do their very best to live by those tenets, while also championing law and goodness in a world which can be very messy indeed. Such people don't go around never feeling guilt and never doing anything difficult; quite the opposite! The best paladins will always be wondering how they could have done more, been better, shone brighter!
As a result of all of that, whenever a paladin (not a fallen one, of course) finds herself in a moral dilemma (following a good order from a tyrant; killing one person to save ten from a passive death; freeing an unfairly-tried-but-probably-guilty prisoner from justice, knowing that he will likely kill again; etc.), she will do her absolute very best to make the right decision, and whatever she decides, she will likely wrack her soul for days (maybe the rest of her life?), wondering if she did the right thing, or how she might do better next time. It is patently absurd to think that her god, witnessing this difficulty and the ensuing internal struggle, will just say "Sorry! Turns out that the right thing to do was to keep that unfairly-tried killer in prison, because utilitarianism is the right normative theory and what you did was consistent with deontology but not utilitarianism! No more Smite Evil for you!" It is the struggle and the commitment which defines the paladin. If anything, any responsible deity will be more likely to punish the "paladin" who always happens to act rightly while never seriously questioning her own actions or intending to do right, than the one who does her best to make difficult choices with careful reflection and consideration, even if she might sometimes have bad moral luck.
What lesson should you take from this wall of text, GMs? It's very simple: stop punishing paladins for being good paladins who try their best to fight evil! A paladin should only fall because she has stopped being the kind of person who becomes a paladin in the first place. The paladin who, in the heat of battle, kills the innocent farmer because he happened to be possessed by a demon, and then feels guilt for her actions and reflects upon what she might have done wrong (and how she might improve next time), every bit deserves the name "paladin". But, if the paladin in your game is always self-righteous and dogmatic, never questions her own actions or "righteousness", and never even risks getting into difficult situations because of the possibility of moral messiness...well, that person lacks moral courage and discipline and virtue, and that person might be due for a couple of days without paladin powers, just to learn a little humility and get a chance to atone for and correct her ways, if for nothing else...
Even though I do not have a PHD in Ethics, this sums up my views on paladins and I cannot help but agree fully with the above.
Thanks Nox Aeterna, blackstarraven, and Derrick Winters for contributing!
I do like the idea myself of a Paladin watching over another member of the party to make sure they don't go too far or begin slipping down the slippery slope which would lead to a darker path. That was a really creative way of handling having a TN necromancer in the party.
Yah, a lot of DMs seem to get hung up on the Law aspect of being Lawful Good or the Paladin's Code in generally in how strictly it should be interpreted The way you helped explain it and offer a possible scenario does seem to be the correct way of going about it to me.
Sighs, even I admit these scenarios are frustrating. Especially when it appears that the reason for forcing such is less to provide a greater roleplay experience and more just to say you forced the Paladin to fall. Really, such should not be something that happens in a single moment with no way of the player finding a way out of the situation.
A paladin's fall could be so much more memorable, especially when working with the player is setting such up and it happening over the course of a few sessions. That, or providing situations where it may seem the Paladin is left without a choice but then it is discovered. Where instead of picking between the lesser of two evils they say screw that and pick a third option.
One what I mentioned before, the idea that a Paladin's fall could come about become of a little choices and step by step. Where the Paladin knows they do that which isn't true to the spirit of his code or his morals but does it anyway, making allowances or excuses, perhaps take more extreme and excessive actions.
The idea that "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster." Where they begin going too far, straying away from the path and becoming as bad as that which he fights. This is one way a DM and player could handle making a Paladin fall, perhaps to be prevented but at the same time maybe allow to happen.
The question is investment and enjoyment, with the issue I see being that the DM and player are not on the same page, that they do not discuss things before hand. I can understand a player's frustration of their DM forcing a fall or otherwise make playing a Paladin not fun.
|
2 people marked this as a favorite.
|
Great post Derrick Winters. Those are my thoughts exactly.
One of the big things to remember about playing a paladin is, that while they are required to be Lawful Good, their code only punishes them for doing something evil, not chaotic (opposite of law), which shows that "good" is the primary aspect of the alignment. A paladin is always striving to do the greatest good for all, generally within the structure of the law. That said, a paladin can break the law or do something chaotic or less lawful if the circumstance warrants it. Like the situations mentioned above, a paladin will walk the moral razor edge, ensuring that the greatest good for all is done. Also, when it comes to laws, I believe that his own moral "law" or the edicts of his deity over rule the laws of man/the land in which he lives, especially in difficult moral dilemmas. He has first and foremost, a responsibility to his own moral code, since it was likely what made him a paladin in the first place. If he can't made a decision based on that, then he relies on the edicts and guidance of his deity. If that doesn't work, then the laws of the land, as long as they are not corrupt and evil, can guide him/her as well.
|
