Trying to help a fellow pc with his muse touched inspired blade swashbuckler. Stats 10 str, 18 Dex, 10 con, 14 int, 10 wis, 16 cha.
Feats:
1: weapon finesse, weapon focus, fencing grace
3: combat reflexes
4: weapon specialization
5: arcane strike
I am a bit unsure from here. He wants to be a damage monster yet still a finesse guy. Any tips or suggestions?
Swashbucklers don't qualify for Arcane Strike.
Swashbucklers don't qualify for Arcane Strike.
Not anymore at least. The ruling that allowed SLAs to count as casting (in general) has been removed.
I still vaguely question why people are loath to grab power attack/piranha strike. I understand the justification (attack bonus for parrying)... but full BAB, plus a +1-+4 attack boost mechanic, along with weapon focus feats.... Swashbuckler is basically a fighter that can't get gloves of dueling. And in general, fighters are not hurting for attack bonus.
But that is just my opinion.
I still vaguely question why people are loath to grab power attack/piranha strike. I understand the justification (attack bonus for parrying)... but full BAB, plus a +1-+4 attack boost mechanic, along with weapon focus feats.... Swashbuckler is basically a fighter that can't get gloves of dueling. And in general, fighters are not hurting for attack bonus.
I'd say Power Attack -> Cornugon Smash is well worth it; you're crippling their attack that way anyhow. Actually as far as the gloves of dueling go, I'm pretty sure there was a ruling or at least a post a while ago that said something along the lines of "Oh for god's sake, if a class feature does the same thing and is called almost the same thing, it qualifies..." but I don't feel like trying to track it down, so don't take my word for it.
Also consider performance feats, with a higher cha like that. Dazzling display, savage display, performing combatant. (these three, together) Throw in masterful display and any of the other performance feats too if you feel like it. While it's feat heavy, you can rack up some detriments on the enemy or various bonuses on yourself. First strike? Make a performance check, then get +d6 damage on all attacks until the end of your next turn (and keep that chain going if you get any crits during that time. Make sure you get that keen weapon :D
If you did pick up sneak attack damage anywhere, you could upgrade to shatter defenses, pick up hero's display, (or take it instead of savage display) and basically just keep hammering away at your enemy, intimidating him whenever you get a first strike, critical hit, or hit with two or more attacks in a round. Sneak attack away. Or get the masterful display and apply savage and hero's. Anyway, that's kind of extreme with the feat limitations of swashbucklers, but you get the point.
Without Power Attack, damage lags behind an equivalent two-hander.
With Power Attack, damage eventually (level 5) pulls ahead of everyone but the Daring Champion.
You want Power Attack.
Damage only is behind the two hander on a crit. And this dosent count the parry riposte and double level to dam that a panache point can give. I like power attack but i dont see it in a swash buckler until very high levels.
...
I still vaguely question why people are loath to grab power attack/piranha strike. I understand the justification (attack bonus for parrying)... but full BAB, plus a +1-+4 attack boost mechanic, along with weapon focus feats.... Swashbuckler is basically a fighter that can't get gloves of dueling. And in general, fighters are not hurting for attack bonus..
I dont know about people but for me, piranha strike is out since that will cost dex to damage with out a agile weapon. But also for the same reasons that power attack is out until very high in the levels.
The swash buckler already have large bonusses to damage, true they are just behind the two hander in pure damage pr swing. But they have options to remedy that, parry riposte and an extra level to dam for a point. The penalty from power attack will pehaps bring damage on a hit over the two hander but it will also risk all the damage you already have along with all the crits that give back points to boost damage and other tricks. At level 12 power attack will give 8 more damage to a guy with a rapier but ha already have 1d6+dex+12 Level+ 2 weapontraining+4 greater spec+? Magic pointy stick of some kind. It is not unrealistic to assume that the -4 will make one of his 4(he have haste) attacks miss or Fail to crit and it is not worth that. IMOP.But this is not a math simulation it is just how i think of it. The higher bonusses you have besides power attack the less impressive it is. We have been kneeling at the alter of Power Attack so long that we belive it is always a good plan, it is not.
I still vaguely question why people are loath to grab power attack/piranha strike. I understand the justification (attack bonus for parrying)... but full BAB, plus a +1-+4 attack boost mechanic, along with weapon focus feats.... Swashbuckler is basically a fighter that can't get gloves of dueling. And in general, fighters are not hurting for attack bonus.I'd say Power Attack -> Cornugon Smash is well worth it; you're crippling their attack that way anyhow. Actually as far as the gloves of dueling go, I'm pretty sure there was a ruling or at least a post a while ago that said something along the lines of "Oh for god's sake, if a class feature does the same thing and is called almost the same thing, it qualifies..." but I don't feel like trying to track it down, so don't take my word for it.
Well...swashbucklers can intimidate as a swift action while attacking anyway. It is the menacing swordplay ability- it just needs you to have at least 1 panche point. Cornugon smash would only free up their swift action (which admittedly has some value, since swashbucklers have a lot of swift action abilities)
Damage only is behind the two hander on a crit. And this dosent count the parry riposte and double level to dam that a panache point can give. I like power attack but i dont see it in a swash buckler until very high levels.Without Power Attack, damage lags behind an equivalent two-hander.
With Power Attack, damage eventually (level 5) pulls ahead of everyone but the Daring Champion.
You want Power Attack.
No, I generally find that the precision damage actually appears to only work to make 1 handed power attacks on par with 2 handed power attacks from a full BAB character with decent strength.
There is a slight a slight growth beyond that at mid to late levels... but as you said, it lags on crits. The extra damage just makes up for the loss compared to a 2 handed crit fisher getting more crits due to iteratives.
The general purpose of precise strike seems to be merely to put 1 handed attacks on par with 2 handed ones mechanically. This also means that their sword and board still keeps up damage without going TWF. That kind of thing seems to be the general trend of the swashbuckler- redeeming mechanically weak styles. They also do well with throwing builds.
Trying to help a fellow pc with his muse touched inspired blade swashbuckler. Stats 10 str, 18 Dex, 10 con, 14 int, 10 wis, 16 cha.
Feats:
1: weapon finesse, weapon focus, fencing grace
3: combat reflexes
4: weapon specialization
5: arcane strike
I am a bit unsure from here. He wants to be a damage monster yet still a finesse guy. Any tips or suggestions?
Arcane Strike is casters only, so unless you dipped a level of sorcerer/wizard/bard you won't qualify for it. If you do dip a level of sorcerer, a shield spell will add to your AC handily, and a spell like enlarge person can boost your damage (I know it's not thematic, though).
Go for critical hits (keen and/or Improved Critical), and get Combat Expertise for access to disarming. An old trope would be to dip two levels of Master of Many Styles to get Crane Wing, but that's been nerfed by the powers-that-be (shame, the feats were not broken, it was the Master of Many Styles being able to ignore level/BAB requirements that broke them).
The reasoning here is the finesse approach should be on avoiding damage as well as dishing it out. With more critical hits you will deal more damage, by boosting AC and avoiding attacks (and disarming foes) you will avoid taking it.
The things to aim for in dealing damage are in order of importance:
Attack bonus (more attack bonus = more hits = more damage) - I cannot overstate this one enough!
Static bonus (as much as you can) - you have already largely addressed this
Threat range (more crits = more damage)
Damage dice (increase them by enlarge and lead blades)
Trying to help a fellow pc with his muse touched inspired blade swashbuckler. Stats 10 str, 18 Dex, 10 con, 14 int, 10 wis, 16 cha.
Feats:
1: weapon finesse, weapon focus, fencing grace
3: combat reflexes
4: weapon specialization
5: arcane strike
I am a bit unsure from here. He wants to be a damage monster yet still a finesse guy. Any tips or suggestions?Arcane Strike is casters only, so unless you dipped a level of sorcerer/wizard/bard you won't qualify for it. If you do dip a level of sorcerer, a shield spell will add to your AC handily, and a spell like enlarge person can boost your damage (I know it's not thematic, though).
Go for critical hits (keen and/or Improved Critical), and get Combat Expertise for access to disarming. An old trope would be to dip two levels of Master of Many Styles to get Crane Wing, but that's been nerfed by the powers-that-be (shame, the feats were not broken, it was the Master of Many Styles being able to ignore level/BAB requirements that broke them).
The reasoning here is the finesse approach should be on avoiding damage as well as dishing it out. With more critical hits you will deal more damage, by boosting AC and avoiding attacks (and disarming foes) you will avoid taking it.
The things to aim for in dealing damage are in order of importance:
Attack bonus (more attack bonus = more hits = more damage) - I cannot overstate this one enough!
Static bonus (as much as you can) - you have already largely addressed this
Threat range (more crits = more damage)
Damage dice (increase them by enlarge and lead blades)
Yes the option of getting arcane strike from a SLA is gone. With the last retcon.
enlarge person is a bad option to offer someone using dex to hit and dam:)Keen and improved crit are of no use since he get the effect for free at level 5:)
Could anyone please explain to me how to get power attack or piranha strike with his build?
He has Str 10 so no Power attack.
He is using a one handed weapon so no piranha strike!
Thanks for all the responses. I didn't realize they took back arcane strike. I can play around with some stats as the character is not made yet. What feat progression do you think is best to maximize his output? He wants to be up there in dpr. Sadly our groups biggest lack is buffs and spellcasters so he will need to be pretty self reliant. I think this is why I veered away from power attack.
Piranha Strike only requires bab +1 and weapon finesse, if I'm not mistaken: Weapon finessable weapons like the rapier apply to this right? Ack --- Not a light weapon, so no, it doesn't count, which is just stupid. I'm sure a gm would allow for it, considering that an exception is made for the weapon finesse feat for rapiers being treated like a light weapon there.
Well, on a side note, Effortless lace isn't PFS legit either, so if you're playing by PFS standard you'd have to do without piranha strike.
It´s not PFS legal. But he does not want PFS-legal help. Sounds good.
But still burning money to take a feat wich improves damage in a class that WILL need every ounce of precision is kind of well ... suboptimal.
You will meet enemys with very high BABs and wich are usually bigger than you. So your opportune parry and riposte will get dicier by the moment.
Also you have to shore up your defenses. I just noticed that even with charmed life and irrepresible I fail my will saving throws.
Also think about extra traits. Some are absolutly excellent.
Totally a home game. Where is effortless lace?
Effortless Lace will allow for Piranha Strike.
A good solution if one want it(i dont but it is not terrible). It is vulnerabel but cheep to replace.
Don't forget about the Inspired blade, comes with a free weapon focus, and easy build towards dex to damage at first level.
Rapier training will grant them an additional +1 damage making up for not being able to take arcane strike as well.
While +2 int is not optimal it will still give the player 5 panache points to start with, they may wish to invest in magic items that boost int and charisma, and it will be a little harder to build points back up. Only on crits
Still when you crit on a 15-20 that is a 30% chance of a crit per attack.
Also feel free to read through the swashbuckler and see what abilities you lose when not fighting one handed the main thing you lose is level to damage (and then this only is lost if you attack with your off hand weapon), so if you like you could go with two weapon fighting when moving around the field you still get bonus damage and when you can pull full round attacks you get more attacks, which help you crit more.
Allowing you to rebuild your panache, also you can still parry and riposte.
Even if he would qualify Arcane Strike does not seems to me a good idea as the Swashbuckler has better uses for his Swift Actions
Our gm feels we can use piranha strike with a rapier. Another question though. Would it be better to go with human instead to get that at level 1? Or like power attack are we sacrificing too much to hit? I am not as fluent with pathfinder as you guys and look forward to any additional insight and suggestions.
Well...swashbucklers can intimidate as a swift action while attacking anyway. It is the menacing swordplay ability- it just needs you to have at least 1 panche point. Cornugon smash would only free up their swift action (which admittedly has some value, since swashbucklers have a lot of swift action abilities)
That's the thing. Sure, you can use Menacing Swordplay; you're just sacrificing the ability to use the riposte part of parry and riposte or charmed life or dodging panache or doubled precise strike or Hurtful which is the other great reason to use Power Attack or... well anyhow, maybe don't use Menacing Swordplay.
Our gm feels we can use piranha strike with a rapier. Another question though. Would it be better to go with human instead to get that at level 1? Or like power attack are we sacrificing too much to hit? I am not as fluent with pathfinder as you guys and look forward to any additional insight and suggestions.
as you Can see there is some debate about the value of -1 to hit +2 to Dam. I dont like it. But others do. You need to get dex to Dam as fast as possible and after that it is a bit more open. Some Will say combat reflexes, other will say piarnha strike, pehaps some wil say Dodge and mobility, get weapon spec at level 4 and you wont be doing it wrong.
|
Without Power Attack, damage lags behind an equivalent two-hander.
With Power Attack, damage eventually (level 5) pulls ahead of everyone but the Daring Champion.
You want Power Attack.
Power attack is only situationally useful without a two-handed weapon. It's not worth it on a Swash as it not only costs you a feat but also requires a 13 strength. Normally a Swash can dump their strength.
In addition, even in rounds where using PA would increase overall damage somewhat - it also reduces your defense via parry.
Pirannha strike doesn't require high strength - but it removes all Paizo feat options for dex to damage.
Our gm feels we can use piranha strike with a rapier. Another question though. Would it be better to go with human instead to get that at level 1? Or like power attack are we sacrificing too much to hit? I am not as fluent with pathfinder as you guys and look forward to any additional insight and suggestions.
Piranha Strike is basically Power Attack for light weapons. It's useful if you face monsters with low AC and high hit points, otherwise it's not up to much. Power Attack is best when you have a two-handed weapon and Furious Focus.
Concentrate on raising accuracy, rather than damage, and DPR will rise anyway.
So I added a few levels and I am looking for some additional tweaks. Also if it helps we are running second darkness.
Level 1: Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus, Fencing Grace,
Level 3: Combat Reflexes
Level 4: Weapon Specialization
Level 5: Dazzling Display
Level 7: Savage Display
Level 8: Performing Combatant
Level 9: Greater Weapon Focus
|
|
I ran the numbers once before and they were pretty conclusive. If you want to match two-handed power attackers, you need Power Attack.
I've run the numbers too - and PA is only beneficial if you assume that all of your opponents will have a crappy AC. Which admittedly - is true of some games with some GMs.
But if your GM actually designs encounters to be difficult where opponents actually use their treasure instead of keeping a heap of gold - thereby having decent ACs - PA with a one-handed weapon kinda sucks.
Damage only is behind the two hander on a crit. And this dosent count the parry riposte and double level to dam that a panache point can give. I like power attack but i dont see it in a swash buckler until very high levels.Without Power Attack, damage lags behind an equivalent two-hander.
With Power Attack, damage eventually (level 5) pulls ahead of everyone but the Daring Champion.
You want Power Attack.
Mathematically you're wrong on the damage. In fact, the reason the Swashbuckler pulls ahead at 5th is because of crits; early Improved Critical is awesome.
I ran the numbers once before and they were pretty conclusive. If you want to match two-handed power attackers, you need Power Attack.
Now, I didn't bother to include the parry/riposte. Partially this was for simplicity. Partially it was because the Fighter has, by comparison, an open feat, so they could take Amateur Swashbuckler if they really wanted. The double-precision-bonus is an absolutely terrible trade for your panache unless you know it'll kill a target, so I didn't bother with it either.
Both of those are inconsistent bonuses regardless. I would assume that a player intent on becoming a "damage machine" wants to be a damage machine at all times, not just when he's okay burning off extra panache and didn't need to boost his saves or do anything else with his Swift action, or when he's able to burn off lots of AoOs (and hope enemies are actually bothering to go after him) to spam Parry.
Don't get me wrong-- good abilities. Useful abilities. But they're not inherently relevant here. You need Power Attack to compete in damage.
i belive that you have done the math but i am not sure i belive the resultat you present unless i see your math. And i dont find the two deeds irrelevant. The extra damage for a point and a Swift will be good in every round where you dont spend the swift before the round on a immidiate or in the round.
At what AC do you make your simulations, and how do you calculate overkill? Is it a attack pr killed BG or a DPR simulation. What is the difference on a charge(where i belive PA will be a good idea along with the extra level to dam move to feel important) and what does critical focus do to the numbers(i assume it favors PA?)Edit:'if the figther took Amateur swash what did you plan for him to use it on? One parry riposte pr Day or is he figthing with a ligth or one handed piercing weapon?
I ran the numbers once before and they were pretty conclusive. If you want to match two-handed power attackers, you need Power Attack.
I've run the numbers too - and PA is only beneficial if you assume that all of your opponents will have a crappy AC. Which admittedly - is true of some games with some GMs.
But if your GM actually designs encounters to be difficult where opponents actually use their treasure instead of keeping a heap of gold - thereby having decent ACs - PA with a one-handed weapon kinda sucks.
the swash can get very high to hit but my looking at numbers agree with you. If it is convinient pehaps you could share your numbers?
Generally i dont think PA is a terrible idea but i dont think it is amazing on a swash either.
Don't forget also that in raising his strength to qualify for power attack he will probably need to pull back on dexterity some (or charisma) and those are much more critical to building a dex swash than strength (he has also apparently dumped Con pretty darn low, but I digress).
Also an idea I am using on a daring champion: a one level dip in Bard (Archaeologist). Add the fate's favored trait and pick up lingering performance so you get more rounds of the luck bonus at +2 to almost everything. I am already really noticing the pump in damage and to hit at only second level and while I lose one in BAB the luck will be on most of the time and it exceeds the loss of one on BAB.
One handed Power Attack/ Piranha will rarely run at a 'net loss' on a Swashbuckler. At mid-levels, adding 6 crit-able damage should be at least +25%, meaning that your overall hit chance would have to be peculiarly low for a martial with weapon training and focus before you actually started to lose out. Whether it's actually a real asset is a different story.
Either way, if you use Power Attack -> Cornugon Smash -> Hurtful, you're getting enormous benefits from it. It's true that it requires 13STR, but unless someone is really determined to get one extra point of panache per day or something, that really isn't that hard. Plus it's helpful for reasons like CMD not to play the Anemic Avenger.
if the figther took Amateur swash what did you plan for him to use it on? One parry riposte pr Day or is he figthing with a ligth or one handed piercing weapon?
It doesn't matter. You can't get Parry/Repose with Amateur Swashbuckler
"You gain a small amount of panache and the ability to perform a single 1st-level swashbuckler deed.
Choose a 1st-level deed from the swashbuckler’s deeds class feature (you can’t select opportune parry and riposte). Once chosen, this deed can’t be changed."
That was from March of 2015, the ACG mega-errata came out in July of that year. In March of 2015, Parry & Riposte was a legal choice for Amateur Swashbuckler (and Signature Deed, I think.)
Oh yeah good call, didn't realize the thread was that old.