Goblin Squad Member
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Golgotha have chosen to label themselves as Evil, the onus is on them and their players to live up to it. Shirking that responsibility because it is difficult, while hiding behind the veil of provocative discussions is really just a disservice to serious role players.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I do not see you guys as particularly evil at all.
Most of what you get up to is random banditry (chaotic) self serving banditry for loot (more neutral) and settlement wise lawful (autocratic rule and all). There is no rule of law per se but that is not in itself an evil thing.
I have heard Phyllain say on more than one occasions they chose Lawful Evil because they figure it will give them the most power advantage later in the game- a purely NON-RP decision, as I have heard him put it.
Otherwise, Gol Tink is actually quite serious with his post, whether he intended it or not. There are lots of things we might call "evil" that Golgatha could do; but if they did them many of us (needless to say, myself included) would cry foul from the standpoint of a) exploiting game mechanics or b) calling 'griefer' on them. In fact, there are more than a few instances of that having already occurred (not all of them being propagated by me- just the most recent one ;).
So yeah, they could really be "evil;" but the out-of-game social consequences would be pretty bad while the in-game consequences could be as severe as an account ban (say, for die-hard griefing).
So naturally the troll post to follow this is that there is no space for true Evil or Good RP in the game. Ok whatever. We are still having fun killing each other as enemies.
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Apparently we have a lot to learn from the EBA.
There really seems to be only 1 option for Golgotha...
Switch to Good alignment and show people how its done. :-)
Dialing up the evil is problematic because it can get us closer and closer to the behavior Lisa and Ryan oppose.
If CCP ran this game I can think of numerous ways to dial it up. With Paizo involved... not so much.
We may just have to see what the game mechanics tell us to do.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So naturally the troll post to follow this is that there is no space for true Evil or Good RP in the game. Ok whatever. We are still having fun killing each other as enemies.
I used to be part of a Drow clan on NWN Richterm servers. Roleplaying anything even slightly close to actual evil got us near banned quite regularly.
Not that individual Drow are actually evil - it is more like the society is Lawful Evil but the individuals that make it up are Chaotic Neutral.
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Goblin Squad Member
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No. But people would cry foul if we did all the things we have talked about. No one wants to see mostly naked 1000xp alts with mage expendables suicide running banks.That is just hilariously chaotic.
Not really evil.
What does making a point of calling Golgotha chaotic do for you?
Killing for the sake of killing regardless of the target's affiliation is chaotic evil. We do our part to attempt to confirm a potential target's affiliation before attacking.
We care very much about properly identifying targets as friends or foes, which makes us Lawful in that we want to follow the codes we have set out, which we believe set us above the common bandit who will rob anyone.
From the Pathfinder Corebook,
"A lawful evil villain methodically takes what he wants within the limits of his code of conduct without regard for whom it hurts. He cares about tradition, loyalty, and order, but not about freedom, dignity, or life. He plays by the rules but without mercy or compassion. He is comfortable in a hierarchy and would like to rule, but is willing to serve."
The evil is fairly obvious and we embrace that.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Everyone kills things in game all the time.
There is nothing overtly or specially evil about killing characters that just happens this time to be controlled by a player and instantly resurrects unless the DEV god's of GW make it so in the game mechanics (which they might).
"We are evil cause we kill other players" is a cop out. Get your game on and invent some proper evil to do.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Everyone kills things in game all the time.
There is nothing overtly or specially evil about killing characters that just happens this time to be controlled by a player and instantly resurrects unless the DEV god's of GW make it so in the game mechanics (which they might).
"We are evil cause we kill other players" is a cop out. Get your game on and invent some proper evil to do.
Sorry Neadenil, we are not here to cater to your expectations. You are welcome to enjoy any content we create.
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Any settlement that encourages 2 blondes to engage in a lingerie pillow-fight for the honor of going off to fight an adventure, and allows the pillow-fight to go on for their own amusement long after the adventure opportunity has ended, has at least a nominal call to the description "evil". :-)
With the exception of miss-identifying my group as TSV and attacking us. Other than that I am sure Grim and Golgotha are sincere in their efforts to properly identify targets.
:)
We're bad bad people.
I don't know how anyone puts up with us.
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Lingerie pillowfights are a settlement exclusive emote that I might be able to talk Golgothans into paying for (per last night's dev fireside chat).
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Do you know what a really evil settlement would do?
They'd claim more than their share of the map. THEN they'd operate outside that territory, perhaps even that same night, perhaps using excuses like penalizing people for violating borders that hadn't even been drawn yet, much less agreed on. That would be pretty evil.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My alt hung around in Emerald lodge for a week once and in Golgothat later for another week based upon contracts discussed with settlement members. They did not cheat me, but then neither contract was… let's say completed. She experienced no chaos nor law nor good, …
She saw no evidence they are not evil and no evidence that they are chaotic.
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Goblin Squad Member
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They adhere to their oaths/promises/contracts that they make on paper, they usually don't try to manipulate those oaths/promises/contracts which makes them LN in my book.
They murder people and steal from them, regularly, I see this as CE, at times, but at other times it does seem LE as they have their own code of conduct (that they mostly play up and do abide).
LE is apt, but I see levels of LN and CE in there. I believe that they are attempting to play their alignment within the bounds of what the game provides.
Do you know what a really evil settlement would do?
They'd claim more than their share of the map. THEN they'd operate outside that territory, perhaps even that same night, perhaps using excuses like penalizing people for violating borders that hadn't even been drawn yet, much less agreed on. That would be pretty evil.
ouch .... that's a solid hit lol
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Goblin Squad Member
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from the D&D Wiki
A Lawful Evil character sees a well-ordered system as being easier to exploit, and shows a combination of desirable and undesirable traits; while it usually obeys its superiors and keeps its word, it cares nothing for the rights and freedoms of other individuals and is not averse to twisting rules in its favor.[citation needed] Examples of this alignment include tyrants, devils, undiscriminating mercenary types who have a strict code of conduct, and loyal soldiers who enjoy the act of killing.[citation needed]Like Lawful Good Paladins, Lawful Evil characters may sometimes find themselves faced with the dilemma of whether to obey law or evil when the two conflict. However, their issues with Law versus Evil are more concerned with "Will I get caught?" versus "How does this benefit me?".[citation needed]
Boba Fett of Star Wars, and X-Men's Magneto are cited examples of Lawful Evil characters in Complete Scoundrel (3.5e)
From the Pathfinder Wiki
Lawful evil is the realm of the individual who knows what they want and will manipulate the system (legal, cultural, and so forth) to achieve those ends, no matter the consequence. This can be for personal gain (for example, the traditional evil vizier who seeks to claim the kingdom for himself) or to better society at all costs - the "I know what's best for everyone else"-attitude without any of the compassionate limits to action found in lawful good (an excellant example is Cardinal Richelieu of Three Musketeers fame).
For me Golgotha is most definitely LE. but a rather proactive LE.
LE settlements in many instances (in games, film, literature, and history) work under a veil, they scheme and plot right under the noses of the good settlements around them. Jut like the dark lords of the Sith.What evil banditry goes on around the good settlements is not connected to the LE settlement until THEY want it to be. So the banditry seems chaotic in nature.
Guurzak's plan to hold for the later game is perfectly reasonable and should be embraced by the good settlements to fully immerse into the world. Golgotha should be playing the sleeping dragon, dormant until it is big enough and strong enough to attack.
The thing is, Pathfinder Online is not ready to support LE. But those in Golgotha want to stick to their ideals now and not wait for the game to give them their ideal play experience.
The only settlements that should be being questioned on alignment right now is the few Good settlements that are actively aggressive, expansive and attack settlements (and not necessarily evil ones) without provocation. They have reacted to a label that is as far from roleplaying as anything else. Before I even got into PFO, there was threats at Golgotha to drive them out before the end of EE by these so called good settlements! Good is supposed to respect all life no matter how evil. Killing evil just because they are evil is more Chaotic Evil than Lawful Good!
Territorial Lines have been drawn on the map yet it seems that the Good settlements are the only ones trying to expand into neighboring territories. Stoneroot are expanding all the way to the east, TEO are pushing North, with no concern for the consequences. Rushing towers with large numbers, not engaging in PVP but simply sitting in a group around the tower spamming heals is not engaging the games mechanics, its exploiting.
War of Towers was meant as a way to define these boarders. Not a race to see who can hold them all first. IMHO It failed miserably and in the process has created some much unneeded bad publicity for the game and those playing it.
To TEO and SG, how much more enjoyable would this game become if the Empire was just another good settlement?
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Goblin Squad Member
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So what you have done the entire game?Do you know what a really evil settlement would do?They same thing they always do: denigrate those who strive for something better while pretending that they themselves are the "real" good guys.
I think you guys might be confusing the topic with "is EBA goodie-two-shoes enough?". Which is in that other thread.
But it makes me look forward to hearing Thod's class on politics tomorrow...
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Goblin Squad Member
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From what I have heard and seen, many of the supposed "good guys" have both discovered and used every game mechanic advantage (or loophole) they can find. This includes the use of macros that spam abilities, that although can not be countered by GW technology, were clearly not in the spirit of the game.
I do not fault them for the use of these mechanics, tactics or even exploits. But, some of them are full of crap when they at the same time say they are concerned about adhering to Ryan's mantra "Just because you can do it, doesn't mean you should".
It is clear that "EvE Rules Apply", and again, I have no problem with that. I just won't stand silent and be lectured by sanctimonious hypocrites who cry for leaving NPC settlements alone, or for every non pvper who rage quits over rare to infrequent predation at the hand of banditry.
Everyone should adopt that same policy, of using every advantage they can. As leveling continues, the need for training on a regular basis is becoming less frequent, and the reputation system is predictably less effective or even needed. And as it has been detailed here and in other threads, it is the "good guys" who are exploiting that system with baiting tactics that if I or any of mine had suggested months ago, they would have railed against.
Is this any different than the "Jet Can" Exploit I had suggested over a year ago?
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Goblin Squad Member
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You guys are acting like there isn't an empirical statistic that measures this, reputation. We don't have the alignment system in yet but we have already seen for months now:
1. EA strives to keep its reputation high, mostly killing only in sanctioned PvP, just like the good guys are supposed to do in this game.
2. Golgotha methodically times its reputation hits. They burn their rep, call off the dogs and then get back to burning rep once they have it back. Just like a Lawful Evil group is supposed to in this game.
3. We have already seen a few chaotic evils burn through their rep and get bored and leave the game when they realize they have to chill out or suck. That's exactly the behavior CE is supposed to have in this game.
The meta game has nothing to do with this. Playing evil or good in PFO doesn't make you a bad or good person its called a ROLEPLAY game folks and so far I think everybody is doing pretty much exactly what they advertised they would.
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Goblin Squad Member
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3. We have already seen a few chaotic evils burn through their rep and get bored and leave the game when they realize they have to chill out or suck. That's exactly the behavior CE is supposed to have in this
Who is the "We" you are referring to?
What "chaotic evil" groups or prominent individuals have left the game?
This seems similar to what was or still is being said about banditry. But when asking those that complained the most about banditry, they admitted that they had only been killed once, or not at all but heard about it happening.
I have to admit, I have been merciful on two occasions now, to not perpetuate the myth. Last night I came across a husk, just outside of Marchmont. I looked around and saw two Goblins (one regular and the other a Sergeant), and I assumed that us who had killed the gatherer. I looted the husk of 32 cp, some wool, hides and a story about Paladins. That is when the victim returned to his husk. He was a tier 1 (0) cloth wearer and considering what likely killed him, I could have easily killed him. I shouted a "Hey" in local and jumped once (my take on a universal "I mean you no harm". He took his gear and bugged out.
The point is, I doubt there are or were very many CE characters out there to begin with, I was never intending to be one either.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You guys are acting like there isn't an empirical statistic that measures this, reputation. We don't have the alignment system in yet but we have already seen for months now:
1. EA strives to keep its reputation high, mostly killing only in sanctioned PvP, just like the good guys are supposed to do in this game.
2. Golgotha methodically times its reputation hits. They burn their rep, call off the dogs and then get back to burning rep once they have it back. Just like a Lawful Evil group is supposed to in this game.
3. We have already seen a few chaotic evils burn through their rep and get bored and leave the game when they realize they have to chill out or suck. That's exactly the behavior CE is supposed to have in this game.
The meta game has nothing to do with this. Playing evil or good in PFO doesn't make you a bad or good person its called a ROLEPLAY game folks and so far I think everybody is doing pretty much exactly what they advertised they would.
Well said.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I just read the new blog about the plans for the alignment system. I believe I'll be content to let the game mechanics keep track of other peoples' alignments without feeling any need to question whether they're portraying their declared morals accurately. I have found in TT that my opinion on Chaotic vs Lawful is not always in line with the populace at large.
OOC (not to imply that the above is IC), I have found Golgotha to be a surprisingly good neighbor. They provide a sufficiently dire threat over the horizon to keep me from getting too complaisant in my PvE focus, but have not done anything I would consider "griefing" in my area of the map.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Please do remember its EE and not all systems are in. Also at this conjecture, we are trying to promote the game. We could kill you guys, rob your husks, take your supplies, and then leave you to deal with the escalations naked. It wouldn't take much with our populations levels right now. I am sure as we get our systems in (assassination, poisons, disguise, etc.) we will become the evil you all know we are.
And of course, people could do it to us (though some might need to band together).
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Goblin Squad Member
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Golgotha have chosen to label themselves as Evil, the onus is on them and their players to live up to it. Shirking that responsibility because it is difficult, while hiding behind the veil of provocative discussions is really just a disservice to serious role players.I just noticed this today. It is plainly obvious you were writing a parody of a comment I made in another thread, lol almost word for word, and posted it here because you think I am a member of this Golgotha group. I'm not, never was, and I don't play the game, haven't for more than a month or two now. Just kind of lurking and observing and commenting until the game shows more promise.
You are half correct, right up til the second comma at least. I was parodying you because I found your original comment absurd, and I found parodying it amusing.
I try not to make assumptions about people's motivations. You should try it.
