Class/Race/etc to make the most optimal Shadowdancer you can feasibly make. Preferably one built around the idea of also being a mid-high charisma character who is disdainful of others, like a nobleman who's past has led him to a very dark(no pun intended) present. Ideally I'd like him Light or no armor, and gets by in combat by being extremely agile.
I'd LIKE a reach build, but I am literally open to any weapon suggestions and options one might wanna throw my way. Elegance and deadliness are the main goals here, someone who simply doesn't get hit by the enemy, and laughs while he cuts them down, fading in and out of the shadows around him. Thanks in advance for any/all suggestions and help.
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Most optimal? Assuming you really want to take this prc for some reason:
Bard [Dervish Dancer archetype, flashy dance moves bard] , race: Fetchling [Dex and cha bonuses...yup and they are a shadow race.] , the racial as well, shadow blending giving increased miss chance in shadowy areas, making very hard to get hit by your enemies. Your spell like abilities also increase as you level, even giving you shadowwalk later on.
Dervish isn't really a reach build but well, considering with bards, you will have ways to make your own shadows/darkness , this should give you the miss chance that you need most of the times, while using a rapier or something. If not into the dervish, well then just play a regular bard and do a reach build, I guess.
Note: you might want to consider taking shadow magic alternate racial trait, this will boost your shadow spell like abilities from Shadowdancer.
And that would be my suggestion.
Why take rogue when you can take slayer?
Fetchling Swashbuckler 2/Slayer 4-7/Shadowdancer X.
Trade some sneak attack for more flat damage, feats, and more hit points. Take stygian slayer archtype for flavor and free invisibility. Level 7 nets you more spells you can cast from items for more sneakiness. Wield a scorpion whip as Cory Staffford 29 mentioned.
The Swashbuckler 2/Stygian Slayer 4-7/Shadowdancer actually seems really really appealing.
I've never used a whip or scorpion whip on a character, do they threaten the full extent of their reach or only at-reach like polearms? Also, going this route, what would be the earliest I could go into Shadowdancer? I would ideally like to enter at 6th level.
Luckily for you then the bare minimum entry level is 6 due to the 5 skill rank requirement in stealth. Due note that it would consume all your feats to get in at 6 if you lack bonus feats in your final build.
Best race for a Stealth based character is Wayang. They get Pass Without Trace and Ventriloquism as racial SLAs, as well as bonuses to Stealth and Perception. What more do you need? Pass Without Trace is especially nice, as it makes you immune to scent and non-magical tracking, while basically lasting ages. Combine that with Dampen Presence and Hellcat Stealth (Both of which require Skill Focus Stealth) and you basically can never be sensed.
You'll need some way of Flight though, to negate Tremorsense. And you'll need tons of feats, and class abilities that help with those feats. I would suggest against Ninja and Rogue, as they lose out on Sneak Attack progression. It's also best to be a high BAB class if you actually care to go more than 2 levels in the class, as your Shaddow Summon will have equivalent BAB (though considering it's a touch attack, perhaps building for saves would be better).
Honestly, if there were still early access, an Eldritch Knight with a Wizard Shadowcaster base would have been a great lead in, IMO. But the loss in caster level and BAB would probably suck too much. A Kensai Magus or an Archaeologist Bard, while great mechanically and thematically, suffer similar problems. So really when it comes down to it, you might need to be a Fighter type class. Mutagenic Fighter can select wings as a Mutagen, so he might be your best bet for such a bit.
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TheOddGoblin,
PRD:
Whip: A whip deals no damage to any creature with an armor bonus of +1 or higher or a natural armor bonus of +3 or higher. The whip is treated as a melee weapon with 15-foot reach, though you don't threaten the area into which you can make an attack. In addition, unlike most other weapons with reach, you can use it against foes anywhere within your reach (including adjacent foes).
Scorpion Whip: This whip has a series of razor-sharp blades and fangs inset along its tip. It deals lethal damage, even to creatures with armor bonuses. If you are proficient with whips, you can use a scorpion whip as a whip.
the Improved Whip Mastery feat lets you threaten to your natural reach plus 5'.
Correct me if I'm wrong but would Improved Whip Mastery essentially let you threaten the entire range of the whip/scorpion-whip since the weapon threatens 15' + the feat allowing you to threaten 5'-10', correct?
I'd have to waste a feat on Whip Mastery, which is essentially rendered useless because of the Scorpion Whip, but it seems worth it for the AoO threatening.
I hate to double-post but would it be smarter to make the character a Human character for the extra feat, maybe with the Adopted Trait to pick up their Spell-Like Abilities Racial Trait? Thereby netting me some bonus skill points and a little more versatility?
^Last time I checked on these boards, Adopted lets you get Race Traits that are regular traits that you can pick up if you are of a certain race, but it doesn't let you get Racial Traits that are hard-wired into a race unless you trade them out for something else. (I remember asking about this because I was wondering if Adopted would let me pick up Weapon Familiarity, which would actually make sense, but this doesn't work because Weapon Familiarity is a Racial Trait and not a Race Trait. Confusing? Sure got me.)
Ahhh... I see, well in that case, I think I might be better off just sticking to the Fetchling instead, though the extra feat and skill points are still tempting since I'm needing so many feats to make this character work(Weapon Focus, Slashing Grace, Whip Mastery, Improved Whip Mastery) and those aren't even including the Shadowdancer's prerequisites... hmmm...
Any suggestions on what order to take my feats and such? We're starting at 5th level, and while before I was pretty set on going Shadowdancer at 6th, I'm willing to delay a little bit if it makes for a better build. I'm currently thinking Swashbuckler(Mysterious Avenger) 2/Slayer(Stygian Slayer) 3 for the build. Can't decide between Human or Fetchling for race, both are equally tempting for different reasons.
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You may like my Core Rulebook Monk/Cleric/Shadowdancer from this thread. It probably isn't the most powerful build but I think it puts a neat twist on the concept.
If I were to build it non-Core it would be a Cleric of Desna for the Butterfly's Sting feat to pass crits to my Shadow as well as AoOs (and Hasting it at higher levels).
The downside to Slayer is that studied target isn't a +2 until level 5, and is a clunky move action until level 7. Just taking Swashbuckler to 5 would grant weapon training (allowing +2 to weapon training gloves) and Weapon Specialization, plus some odds and ends.
One possible option would be Swashbuckler 1/ Spirit Guide Oracle 4, with Fate's Favored and Magical Knack. In the two levels of spellcasting you get you can pick a couple of arcane spells to go along with having a +3/+3 Divine Favor; Mirror Image and Vanish come to mind. You also qualify for Divine Protection, giving you some awesome saves. If you pick the Battle mystery you can grab free Weapon Focus, making Slashing Grace easy; if you don't mind having to use it two-handed, the Katana qualifies nicely. Note that using a Swordmaster's Flair Blue Scarf can turn any melee weapon into a reach weapon with panache.
EDIT: Incidentally, another two levels of Oracle would open up Haste and Heroism among other things...
owner - Redcap's Corner, Owner - Redcap's Corner
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wayang magus (hexcrafter) 3 / fighter (lore warden) 2 / shadowdancer 3 / barbarian (titan mauler) 2 / ninja 2
Feats
1: Combat Reflexes
3: Skill Focus (Stealth)
4: Dodge
5: Combat Expertise, Butterfly's Sting, Mobility
7: Combat Patrol, Hellcat Stealth
9: Weapon Finesse
11: Quick Draw
Magus arcana: prehensile hair
Rogue talent: fast stealth
Ninja trick: pressure points
Weapons: boarding pike of repelling, keen fauchard (using cracked opalescent white pyramid ioun stone)
Str 10, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 17, Wis 10, Cha 12 starting stats at 20 pts.
Chill touch: the only spell you ever need!
Fetchling Swashbuckler 1/Paladin (Temple Champion) 4/Shadowdancer X
Take Variant Channeling (darkness) and the Night domain.
From 8th level onward, pick up the Dimensional Agility feat chain.
From 8th level onward, pick up the Dimensional Agility feat chain.
Unfortunately Shadow Jump is a supernatural ability rather than a spell-like ability.
The Fetchling's Shadow Walk SLA might qualify, and Shadow Jump should qualify, my GM would probably allow it.
My problem right now is trying to decide what feats to take for this character being 5th level, and when would/should be the earliest I go into Shadowdancer. Right now I'm pretty set on 2 levels of Swashbuckler(Mysterious Avenger) to negate the need to take a feat for whips, and to gain the finesse for whips, unless that would not apply to Scorpion Whips. After those two levels, 3 levels of Slayer(Stygian Slayer) to get me started at 5th level which is the level we are starting our campaign. I'll stick with Stygian until I go into Shadowdancer, I'm just having trouble picking feats for the character and when to pick up the prerequisites for Shadowdancer while still taking the feats needed to make the whip deadly.
Another option I'm considering is going with a Gunslinger and essentially be a pistol-wielding ninja type of character. Would this idea be at all viable, maybe with pistol-daggers or are regular pistols just outright more useful? Maybe Gunslinger and Stygian Slayer into Shadowdancer?
From 8th level onward, pick up the Dimensional Agility feat chain.Unfortunately Shadow Jump is a supernatural ability rather than a spell-like ability.
Screw that. Ask your GM. The vast majority of them will be fine with it on account of not being total idiots.
Any GM who's that much of a system literalist deserves to have a Snowcone Wish Machine Wizard hit their game.
So... does anyone have advice on the Gunslinger -> Shadowdancer or gun wielding Shadowdancers in general? I really would like to explore this concept a little further but would need to know if I could make it work or if it would be useless to attempt.
Single pistol, dual pistols, or even a musket are all options I'm open to, though I'd prefer for this character to be a close range type of character. Maybe Racial Heritage(Ratfolk) for the Gulch Gunner archetype and pistol-fighting? The cramped, tunnel-fighting up-close-and-personal style of fighting would fit a stealthy pistol assassin really well in my opinion, but I'm not sure if it would work well mechanically.
Unfortunately Shadow Jump is a supernatural ability rather than a spell-like ability.
Here's a relevant discussion from way back.
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...total idiot...
...or perhaps a GM would just prefer to preserve the distinction between an inherent ability based on walking between shadows and actually having to cast a teleportation spell.
It's certainly an option worth asking about - and not at all unreasonable. But marching in expecting a GM to allow it and then throwing insults if they don't is kind of bad form.
So... does anyone have advice on the Gunslinger -> Shadowdancer or gun wielding Shadowdancers in general? I really would like to explore this concept a little further but would need to know if I could make it work or if it would be useless to attempt.
Single pistol, dual pistols, or even a musket are all options I'm open to, though I'd prefer for this character to be a close range type of character. Maybe Racial Heritage(Ratfolk) for the Gulch Gunner archetype and pistol-fighting? The cramped, tunnel-fighting up-close-and-personal style of fighting would fit a stealthy pistol assassin really well in my opinion, but I'm not sure if it would work well mechanically.
What a coincidence. I entered this thread because I was working on a concept for a gunslinger shadow dancer. I was going to go pistol and focus on movement. I wouldn't spend a feat for that considering you already need 3 for the prestige class and that removes any other combat feats unless human. I would not get in their faces, but 10-15 feet away would be interesting to work with. So I'm curious too. Any ideas for a gunslinger shadow dancer?
If you want the whip, I'd do weapon master fighter 3 for the feats and weapon training.
Shadowdancer pairs great with ninja or rogue 2 for pressure points to get in on the str damage.
Bloodrager would work well if you don't need the extra feats, a lot of bloodlines get cool tricks in the first few levels, lots of options. Not weapon specific, so don't need so many feats. Of course they're MAD as hel.
Tough to beat trench fighter for a gun dip. Otherwise, gunslinger is good to leave at 5 or 7. Grasping Strike could be fun for kiting, doing a doublehackbutt vital strike musket master thing? (Someday I want to see a bouncy goblin using one of those, prone and sliding all over the map.)
What about the gunslinger archetype that uses crossbows for a quieter approach? I can't remember the name but fifth level gets dex to damage and then you can go into shadowdancer at 6th. The character would be pretty SAD, but very feat heavy.
What about the gunslinger archetype that uses crossbows for a quieter approach? I can't remember the name but fifth level gets dex to damage and then you can go into shadowdancer at 6th. The character would be pretty SAD, but very feat heavy.
I've been debating this exact same thing because I too like the idea of a "gun assassin" type of character, though I'm pretty sure I would go with twin double-barrel pistols. That is something that I've been unsure of, between the whip and the pistols, as BOTH are feat intensive(whip requires Weapon Focus, Slashing Grace, Whip Mastery, Improved Whip Mastery, to be "functional" in my opinion).
I've never played a Gunslinger so the idea of building one is something I'm unsure of, especially since the only real draw to the class(Dex to damage) is something I can gain with the whip as well. The two levels of Swashbuckler(Mysterious Avenger) help to somewhat mitigate the feat-intensity since they give proficiency in the whip and free Weapon Finesse. I believe I would be able to have all 4 feats that are "needed" by 5th level if I go with Fighter(Weapon Master) though that does mean I will have to wait until I can gain the 3 prerequisite feats of Shadowdancer before I can enter the class.
What are people's thoughts on only take the 3(or maybe even just 2 levels?) dip in Fighter for the feats and the rest(until Shadowdancer) taken in another class that offers benefits(maybe Stygian Slayer for talents, or maybe Bloodrager with Arcane bloodline for Disruptive?) I'm very much open to suggestions, my only requirement is that I have 8 levels of Shadowdancer by 20th level, though I'd prefer 10. I've dabbled with the idea(and honestly quite like it) of going with Swashbuckler 2/Fighter 2/Slayer 7/Shadowdancer 8, alternative levels of Shadowdancer and Slayer as soon as I qualify for the class. This would net me with spell-completion access and Invisibility and Sneak Attack damage to go along with all the benefits of Shadow Walking and other Shadowdancer abilities. Depending on what other's thoughts are on the matter, I'd be willing to go Swashbuckler 2/Stygian Slayer 10/Shadowdancer 8, which gains the character the ability to turn into a cloud of darkness, which is also very in-theme for the character.
Would I lose out on too many feats by going with Slayer(Stygian Slayer) instead of going with Fighter?
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Heh. Someone linked my thread. ;)
Yeah, if it is a home game I haven't found a DM yet who wouldn't allow Shadow Dancer's ability to qualify. Horizon Walker works by RAW. Shadow Walk should for the same reason.
Its kinda funny looking back on that thread and considering Paizo's recent reversal of SLAs qualifying you for Feats and PrCs.