Goblin Squad Member
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Nonsense, we're all just Thod alts, roleplaying villains and victims.That's another part of the problem, just villains and victims. We've got some proactive robbers, but we don't have many people playing cops yet. I suspect that will change with time, but it would be nice if there were some sort of brute squad people could call on to come fight bandits that are just camping around ambushing people.
To be fair, Phaeros are doing a good job acting as Team EBA, World Police right now. They are keeping us occupied with things that aren't accidentally picking on small settlements.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't see the EBA making all these mistakes, like some of you are going on about. We gave the understanding that they were in a combat zone, we gave them the tools to contact us, several groups gave them gear/recipes/expendables, and divided towers evenly.
The issue here is that they didn't understand the political climate. Maybe we could have been more clearer, maybe they misunderstood what we were saying, personally I think there was a miscommunication, and it wasn't double checked. My point is that we did not throw BWG under the bus, whether some of you want to say so or not.
We gave them the keys to success, they didn't use those keys. Furthermore, it specifically states in our alliance agreement that they will defend themselves to the best of their abilities, and if they need help they request help, they did not request help, nor even contact us that they were being attacked. We can't be everywhere all the time, we can be in key locations, and the hex they were attacked in wasn't a key location. We don't have the manpower (yet), to patrol every single hex in our territory.
You all can agree or disagree with me, but short of stationing people to handhold, and protect their settlement 24/7, we did everything else we could possibly do.
This sounds completely reasonable to me.
I'd like to suggest that however little responsibility EBA had for teaching their member state BWG how to play PFO effectively, Xeilias had even less.
You can't teach people who missed 2/3 of all Alliance meetings, and all of the social engagements they were invited to.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The situation is that we tried to meet them halfway, but you can't meet someone half way, when the member base (including leadership) is mostly causal, or not willing/able to communicate on a regular basis.
They may have been good people, they may have liked to RP, as well as being casual players, there is nothing inherently wrong with what they wanted. The situation is that they didn't understand what a sandbox is, no matter how much it was explained, or warned, and you couple that with time constraints, you begin to get a negative situation brewing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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To be fair, Phaeros are doing a good job acting as Team EBA, World Police right now. They are keeping us occupied with things that aren't accidentally picking on small settlements.Nonsense, we're all just Thod alts, roleplaying villains and victims.That's another part of the problem, just villains and victims. We've got some proactive robbers, but we don't have many people playing cops yet. I suspect that will change with time, but it would be nice if there were some sort of brute squad people could call on to come fight bandits that are just camping around ambushing people.
Thanks, Tink :)
We are very motivated to move the fight closer to Golgotha. Not only does that give y'all the PvP you want, but it also lessens the likelihood that y'all will get bored and pick on players who aren't really interested in PvP. Seems to be working so far.
The same way that TEO responds to moving theirs to 11am server time? You said you wanted a war, we aren't going to be stupid about it.How does T7V respond to ongoing rumours that Tink is actually their super secret leader, and this has all been a ruse? It's all anyone is talking about.How does Golgotha respond to ongoing rumors that Phyllain changed Golgotha's PvP Window to the middle of the night when no Golgothans were online to defend their Towers, despite all the rhetoric about how much you guys want PvP?Squirrel!
Phaeros capped three Towers from Golgotha last night without a single peep from any of you guys. We defended our Tower right on your doorstep, too. Can we haz some more of your smart warfare, please?
This is a new month, requiring a new month of subscription time. I'm not even sure how many players on any side decided to pay for March, rather than reserve that month for when holdings and outposts show up or waiting for some other fun feature in the future.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am amazed and disappointed even, by the people who still don't know or accept what the design of this game has always been proposed to be. GW and Ryan have been remarkably consistent in stating their vision of open world pvp with consequences. I come from a tabletop background going back to the blue box, I've played some themepark WoW. I read the kickstarter, I read the blogs describing the overarching goals of the game. I joined expecting to have to learn to protect myself and my settlement at all times. I expect to learn to pvp. I expect to die. I expect to lose gear and resources. I just don't understand the willfull attempts to ignore everything that Goblinworks has always said this game will be.
Why do I think that? Because in this very thread, someone from Golgotha has stated the intention to WIN the game.
To be clear, the reason I wanted to purchase the settlement account is because Golgotha has shown no particular interest in WINNING PFO compared to PLAYING PFO.
I had one day of grandiose thinking, and knew that WINNING this game risks complete destruction, and I don't see Golgotha anywhere close to wanting to put it all on the line the way I was considering. Frankly it isn't a particularly *smart* idea. I just think it would be fun, and could succeed.
It is perfectly reasonable to prefer PLAYING PFO, but until Ryan tells us not to WIN PFO and crush the world beneath our heel exacting tribute from all, there will be players who give the idea some thought, and occasionally some voice, and it would behoove us all (including my settlement) to plan and prepare for such grandiose schemes.
If I thought for a moment that Golgotha had the ambition I felt yesterday, I'd never consider wasting huge sums of money on a settlement account.
What comes to mind is the scene in the movie Tombstone where the leader of the Cowboys wistfully wonders what will happen when he is gone and Ringo is in charge of the gang.
When this game gets bigger, you'll see madmen show up that will make you miss the days of Phyllain's restraint.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't see the EBA making all these mistakes, like some of you are going on about. We gave the understanding that they were in a combat zone, we gave them the tools to contact us, several groups gave them gear/recipes/expendables, and divided towers evenly.
The issue here is that they didn't understand the political climate. Maybe we could have been more clearer, maybe they misunderstood what we were saying, personally I think there was a miscommunication, and it wasn't double checked. My point is that we did not throw BWG under the bus, whether some of you want to say so or not.
We gave them the keys to success, they didn't use those keys. Furthermore, it specifically states in our alliance agreement that they will defend themselves to the best of their abilities, and if they need help they request help, they did not request help, nor even contact us that they were being attacked. We can't be everywhere all the time, we can be in key locations, and the hex they were attacked in wasn't a key location. We don't have the manpower (yet), to patrol every single hex in our territory.
You all can agree or disagree with me, but short of stationing people to handhold, and protect their settlement 24/7, we did everything else we could possibly do.
Cheatle, honestly I had no clue about any of this. Didn't even know we could call on others. I knew about the towers, and some tier 1 +2 equipment, but as far as anything else, nope. Oh, and it is hard to understand about a political environment when I barely understood one existed. I learned about the politics the hard way, after the fact. If I had all of this knowledge earlier, like say during the kickstarter days, I would have never back this project.
With that said, I do hope for the rest of everyone playing this game, that they have the best experiences possible.
Yes, I'm sure Mourn would have been completely transparent with you guys about him having talks with other groups. You'll never believe that it happened, though it did, but then that's how the world works sometimes.What other groups? No League settlement representative was ever proactively contacted by BWG players during Mourn's administration. I can't speak for Cal, Fanndis, and the northern settlements, but it is doubtful their reps were contacted. The Keepers attempted to reestablish communication with them on BWG's public forums right before the incident. They wouldn't proactively contact Golgotha, the Chaotics, and the Northern Coalition! Unless your implying a mysterious unaligned third party outside of the map's current power blocs, this statement doesn't hold water.
I suggested in a thread that they consult Thod.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The situation is that we tried to meet them halfway, but you can't meet someone half way, when the member base (including leadership) is mostly causal, or not willing/able to communicate on a regular basis.
They may have been good people, they may have liked to RP, as well as being casual players, there is nothing inherently wrong with what they wanted. The situation is that they didn't understand what a sandbox is, no matter how much it was explained, or warned, and you couple that with time constraints, you begin to get a negative situation brewing.
@Cheatle
Communication goes two ways. And I know how difficult it is if someone doesn't listen. I have two kids - sometimes they need to experience something goes wrong before they will start listening.But I know from my adult experience that something will go wrong. So it then depends how dangerous or costly it is if I allow it to happen.
And before you complain - nobody I think did expect it to go so bad so quickly.
A comment about the sandbox. It isn't the problem that they have been in a sandbox. The problem is where in the sandbox they were. The exact same playstyle next to Forgeholm and we wouldn't be here and have this long thread.
And because we are all in a sandbox there is an effect if EBA (or Golgotha) throws some sand in one direction or another. Every of your actions generates a ripple with people closer affected more as people further away.
I'm very sensitive to this as I follow every move of EBA and Golgotha and extrapolate how it might affect us.
And also please don't see it just as negative. Ripples can also be very positive.
BWG didn't take advantage of the positives and ignored the negatives. And it was their position which made a small wave into a tsunami.
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Goblin Squad Member
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you shot your own settlement member, NihimonHuh?
I said I thought the community was trying to get Goblinworks to cap the NPC Towers at 6.
Bluddwolf said I was wrong.
I linked the posts where the community was suggesting capping the NPC Towers at 6. I mentioned that you seemed to be agreeing that the NPC Towers should be capped at 6.
What am I missing here?
Nope, I made the wrong conclusion of the original posts meaning, as I read and posted while half-awake with my mind in a sea of code.
Allow me to be the first to welcome our Role Playing Overlords!
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Goblin Squad Member
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I only play PFO because I am a TT player and enjoy Pathfinder TT. If/when PFO becomes what some have suggested - simply one large group of wolves fighting another large group of wolves - I will stop playing, which means I won't be playing any MMOs. I think this is the case for others currently playing the game as well. I am enjoying myself, the game mechanics and the people I have met while playing the game but the main attraction is that it is set in Golorion, NOT that it is an MMO sandbox thing or whatever you call it. Yes, I get that the *vision* is for PvP anytime/anywhere and that many people believe it is healthy/better to have it so (including Ryan), but I feel that GW needs to be aware of who is actually playing the game and crowdforge appropriately. I think people like me have a place in this game just as much as the highly competitive people who want the PvP challenge/rush do. I just think GW needs to walk a delicate line in balancing the enjoyment of all the various play-styles, and, besides the tragedy at BWG, I think they have done a pretty good job of it so far. I hope they continue to do so as the game advances and that we can keep lots of diverse players rather than loose them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Cheatle
Communication goes two ways. And I know how difficult it is if someone doesn't listen. I have two kids - sometimes they need to experience something goes wrong before they will start listening.
But I know from my adult experience that something will go wrong. So it then depends how dangerous or costly it is if I allow it to happen.And before you complain - nobody I think did expect it to go so bad so quickly.
A comment about the sandbox. It isn't the problem that they have been in a sandbox. The problem is where in the sandbox they were. The exact same playstyle next to Forgeholm and we wouldn't be here and have this long thread.
I do agree with the sentiment on communication. I will sleep well at night knowing we had best interests at heart but that doesn't mean that we don't have anything to learn from this.
I will also however issue a stern warning to any who think this only happened to BWG because they were on the "front line". We've had plenty of griefing stories from other parts of the map. GW even had to put an order down to stop it Marchmont.
And don't let Golgotha's generally chivalrous attempts at arch rivalry with EBA fool you. When the REAL arsehats come into the game, they will be preying on the weakest settlements they can find.
I only play PFO because I am a TT player and enjoy Pathfinder TT. If/when PFO becomes what some have suggested - simply one large group of wolves fighting another large group of wolves - I will stop playing, which means I won't be playing any MMOs. I think this is the case for others currently playing the game as well. I am enjoying myself, the game mechanics and the people I have met while playing the game but the main attraction is that it is set in Golorion, NOT that it is an MMO sandbox thing or whatever you call it. Yes, I get that the *vision* is for PvP anytime/anywhere and that many people believe it is healthy/better to have it so (including Ryan), but I feel that GW needs to be aware of who is actually playing the game and crowdforge appropriately. I think people like me have a place in this game just as much as the highly competitive people who want the PvP challenge/rush do. I just think GW needs to walk a delicate line in balancing the enjoyment of all the various play-styles, and, besides the tragedy at BWG, I think they have done a pretty good job of it so far. I hope they continue to do so as the game advances and that we can keep lots of diverse players rather than loose them.
People like the EBA are trying to make your playstyle workable, while players like me are occasionally trying to make your game interesting.
I'll also remind you that even Golgotha has gatherers. But our gatherers are gatherers with backup (often very nearby).
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Goblin Squad Member
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I only play PFO because I am a TT player and enjoy Pathfinder TT. If/when PFO becomes what some have suggested - simply one large group of wolves fighting another large group of wolves - I will stop playing, which means I won't be playing any MMOs. I think this is the case for others currently playing the game as well. I am enjoying myself, the game mechanics and the people I have met while playing the game but the main attraction is that it is set in Golorion, NOT that it is an MMO sandbox thing or whatever you call it. Yes, I get that the *vision* is for PvP anytime/anywhere and that many people believe it is healthy/better to have it so (including Ryan), but I feel that GW needs to be aware of who is actually playing the game and crowdforge appropriately. I think people like me have a place in this game just as much as the highly competitive people who want the PvP challenge/rush do. I just think GW needs to walk a delicate line in balancing the enjoyment of all the various play-styles, and, besides the tragedy at BWG, I think they have done a pretty good job of it so far. I hope they continue to do so as the game advances and that we can keep lots of diverse players rather than loose them.
I think they try hard to balance everything and we shouldn't forget that Lisa also plays a role when giving input. Over time areas of more PvP and areas of less PvP will develop and people will move towards the area that fits best with the playstyle.
Unfortunately the landrush might have placed non-compatible playstyles into too close proximity. And no - I'm not talking EL here. We adapt.|
Goblin Squad Member
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And don't let Golgotha's generally chivalrous attempts at arch rivalry with EBA fool you. When the REAL arsehats come into the game, they will be preying on the weakest settlements they can find.
And I hope by then that the community is in a state that they band together and fight them and don't just let it happen.
Maybe even EBA and Golgotha fighting side-by-side - and horror of all - the neutral Emerald Lodge fielding their contigent beside them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It seems backwards to me to have the PVP stuff in place before the safeguards are in place or whatever needs to be in place to prevent this kind of thing from happening.
Yes, you will get the PVPrs to fund the beta, but the folks that aren't as interested in PVP (not care bears, folks who realize there will be PVP but choose not to actively pursue it) will get frustrated and quit, and not only stop funding the beta, but also possibly not return.
I'd think at this stage of the game, you'd want to accomodate a wider variety of playstyle to get more subs for the beta (ie. Open Enrollment) for the time being. Err on the side of more subs while crowd forging, as it were.
On the first day of WoT when Golgothans were given our map of tower targets I was very impressed with what Thod had carved out for the Emerald Lodge (as far as towers we weren't going to attack).
I didn't see the negotiations, just the result and all I can say is...
well done.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have no doubt that if a truly Evil group who came to PFO to drive others out, you would see quite the community alliance forming together to stomp that behavior out.
EBA and Golgotha might fight, but we're like siblings. We do that. But someone outside the family starts something, well...
It seems backwards to me to have the PVP stuff in place before the safeguards are in place or whatever needs to be in place to prevent this kind of thing from happening.
Yes, you will get the PVPrs to fund the beta, but the folks that aren't as interested in PVP (not care bears, folks who realize there will be PVP but choose not to actively pursue it) will get frustrated and quit, and not only stop funding the beta, but also possibly not return.
I'd think at this stage of the game, you'd want to accomodate a wider variety of playstyle to get more subs for the beta (ie. Open Enrollment) for the time being. Err on the side of more subs while crowd forging, as it were.
The game is GROWING subscriptions.
While a handful of players selling their ball and going home is worth discussing, we have all the tools in place (including these forums) to prevent the kinds of occurrences that would create a discernible negative effect on the game.
And if that settlement account sold for a premium, I'd suggest that demonstrates there are folks that feel very positive about the possibilities available, even to a late starting settlement.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is where international politics happens... internal politics happens on Mumble/Teamspeak, internally. I'm hoping to start interviewing people and doing some actual reporting, so my site will hopefully start being a decent resource for following the politics of PFO, but I've been super busy with work.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is where international politics happens... internal politics happens on Mumble/Teamspeak, internally. I'm hoping to start interviewing people and doing some actual reporting, so my site will hopefully start being a decent resource for following the politics of PFO, but I've been super busy with work.
I would love such a site. Lots of work though.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What happened to Hammerfall, and why is it mentioned as an example of an alternate outcome for the BWG debacle? :)
I don't see any one place besides this forum to keep track of political developments, and things seem to be moving fast in these last few months...
The repugnant gnome bends over revealing the full glory of his arsless leather chaps. Hands on cheeks he words out, "Last I heard Hammerfall has more towers than the entire Northern Coalition...combined"
thhhhhhpt
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Goblin Squad Member
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It seems backwards to me to have the PVP stuff in place before the safeguards are in place or whatever needs to be in place to prevent this kind of thing from happening...
I honestly can't tell if you really don't understand or are deliberately exaggerating. Nothing "wrong" happened. The game played out as intended. Pvp occurred with consequences (not rep loss due to open pvp status, but social consequences such as increased aggression against Golgotha from neighbors), and rewards (loot drops). Some players on both sides changed how they play the game, and others quit because they finally experienced a major component of the game. This will happen again and again and again all across the map because it is the game. Hopefully, there wont be the rage as the people who have so far ignored information from the developers will now understand it better. The echo chamber is never a good place to learn things.
What happened to Hammerfall, and why is it mentioned as an example of an alternate outcome for the BWG debacle? :)
I don't see any one place besides this forum to keep track of political developments, and things seem to be moving fast in these last few months...
Early in the game Golgothans realized that Thornguards sucked and invited Ryan and Lisa to watch us do a raid on Hammerfall. (Poaching on ZKM back then seems to have been a component of our target selection).
After the raid, Hammerfall players realized they wanted to be less convenient to Golgotha, and though the devs finally fixed Thornguards, Hammerfall was still a ghost town, when I banked there last week.
But it is still their settlement and they retain all the possibilities open to those with settlement ownership.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am amazed and disappointed even, by the people who still don't know or accept what the design of this game has always been proposed to be. GW and Ryan have been remarkably consistent in stating their vision of open world pvp with consequences. I come from a tabletop background going back to the blue box, I've played some themepark WoW. I read the kickstarter, I read the blogs describing the overarching goals of the game. I joined expecting to have to learn to protect myself and my settlement at all times. I expect to learn to pvp. I expect to die. I expect to lose gear and resources. I just don't understand the willfull attempts to ignore everything that Goblinworks has always said this game will be.
I agree.
It is true that some sociopaths are playing PFO and killing characters and taking their stuff, but not all people killing characters and taking their stuff are sociopaths.
It's like people have never played competitive sports before, or something...
In American Football, one guy hits another guy and takes the Basic Stitched Leather +3 he drops.
The rules of this game are that you can kill other characters and take their stuff; that is one of the ways you compete.
I have attacked 2 poachers in EBA lands (Note: I have since learned it is currently against EBA policy to attack poachers not affiliated with belligerents). I ran one off, and one fought and died and called me a douche (both after several attempts at contact, suggestions to gather elsewhere and trade, and at least 10 minutes of non-action). I said 'sorry,' and told him he could return to his corpse and retrieve what remained of his goods. I did that because a person that has intimate knowledge of the rules would not have called me a douche; this person needed coaching, not to be 'taught a lesson.' When I got another reply that didn't include an insult, I gave an explanation of my actions and some pointers.
I did this because I want to be known as a good player, which has nothing to do with my character's alignment.
It is and will always be incredibly important to teach new players the rules of the game. My hope is that all players will be motivated by this tragedy to consider how they, personally, can better teach their fellow players how the game is played. It isn't required, it's a bit of a chore, but it's good sportsmanship, and I think the majority of us are interested in being good sports while we compete.
EDIT: To add, I did not attack ANY possible poachers when we had that rush of new faces at the end of January/beginning of February. A little restraint was warranted.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It seems backwards to me to have the PVP stuff in place before the safeguards are in place or whatever needs to be in place to prevent this kind of thing from happening...I honestly can't tell if you really don't understand or are deliberately exaggerating. Nothing "wrong" happened. The game played out as intended. Pvp occurred with consequences (not rep loss due to open pvp status, but social consequences such as increased aggression against Golgotha from neighbors), and rewards (loot drops). Some players on both sides changed how they play the game, and others quit because they finally experienced a major component of the game. This will happen again and again and again all across the map because it is the game. Hopefully, there wont be the rage as the people who have so far ignored information from the developers will now understand it better. The echo chamber is never a good place to learn things.
I'm not entirely sure but I'd guess the problem is (at this stage of the game) the consequences for murderers/bandits are far less severe than the victim's. And, as far as I know, that is not at all how it is intended or described.
I'm not entirely sure but I'd guess the problem is (at this stage of the game) the consequences for murderers/bandits are far less severe than the victim's. And, as far as I know, that is not at all how it is intended or described.It seems backwards to me to have the PVP stuff in place before the safeguards are in place or whatever needs to be in place to prevent this kind of thing from happening...I honestly can't tell if you really don't understand or are deliberately exaggerating. Nothing "wrong" happened. The game played out as intended. Pvp occurred with consequences (not rep loss due to open pvp status, but social consequences such as increased aggression against Golgotha from neighbors), and rewards (loot drops). Some players on both sides changed how they play the game, and others quit because they finally experienced a major component of the game. This will happen again and again and again all across the map because it is the game. Hopefully, there wont be the rage as the people who have so far ignored information from the developers will now understand it better. The echo chamber is never a good place to learn things.
As a tier 2 gatherer of 4 gathering types I feel the consequences of losing to banditry are usually inconsequential.
I could lose ~30 minutes of gathering if I wasn't smart enough to run away.
Yes, moving hundreds of recipes/spells/maneuvers from one bank to another in one load is risky, but that always remains a choice of risk versus time spent moving them one at a time (or some hybrid) for safety. That's a good thing in a game where choices matter.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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I think the biggest missed opportunity here was for BWG to make an example of themselves in a positive way rather than a negative way. The negative way was to quit the game.
The positive way would have been to go to the community and say:
Here is what we want to do. Here is what happened to us. Here is what we did.
Here are our characters, and the Feats we have slotted.
How can we do better?
Where should we operate?
What tactics should we be using?
How should we respond to a similar event?
Then they could learn from their experience and get better and have more fun. Because there was a lot of learning to do for them, and they could have had more fun.
The thing that really makes me sad is that I know there are things they could have done, and I know people would have been eager to help.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm not entirely sure but I'd guess the problem is (at this stage of the game) the consequences for murderers/bandits are far less severe than the victim's. And, as far as I know, that is not at all how it is intended or described.
The primary deterrents are social as reflected by the rep system which will limit trainiing, and gear access (ie. will crafters equip you), the end result being lower powered characters for pvp behaviour that does not reflect appropriate gameplay. Some people feel a bounty system will be a deterrent, but there is nothing to stop bounties from being offered now. There will always be situations where pvp will be able to occur without rep loss (feuds, wars, factions, open pvp windows on towers/holdings), just as the scenario that started this happened in.
Some people talk about consequences as though they are actually supposed to limit pvp. They aren't. Consequences simply attach a cost to pvp. They will not, and are not intended to limit <appropriate > pvp. They will gimp the power and development of characters doing inappropriate pvp through mechanisms that are essentially already in place and being iterated. This thread is a good example of how the in-game settlements will iterate their own individual responses to pvp whether it is considered appropriate by game mechanics or not.
Edit: clarified appropriate pvp
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Goblin Squad Member
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It seems backwards to me to have the PVP stuff in place before the safeguards are in place or whatever needs to be in place to prevent this kind of thing from happening...I honestly can't tell if you really don't understand or are deliberately exaggerating. Nothing "wrong" happened. The game played out as intended. Pvp occurred with consequences (not rep loss due to open pvp status, but social consequences such as increased aggression against Golgotha from neighbors), and rewards (loot drops). Some players on both sides changed how they play the game, and others quit because they finally experienced a major component of the game. This will happen again and again and again all across the map because it is the game. Hopefully, there wont be the rage as the people who have so far ignored information from the developers will now understand it better. The echo chamber is never a good place to learn things.
I'm not exaggerating anything. earlier I asked what the tragedy was, because it seemed like the game as intended happened.
Then I was told, no not really because things that weren't in place yet exacerbated the situation.|
Goblin Squad Member
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According to my possibly limited understanding, EL is missing a tower, or was yesterday.
Yes indeed there have been rumours that our most Northern tower had been taken by the evil Golgothans. I have send the heroes of Baron's Folly - at least all 4 of which I could get hold of - up to the tower to teach them a lesson.
What a sight in their gleaming armour ... But I get sidetracked here. I was about to report some more glory of the Emerald Lodge.Okay - truth be told - there isn't any glory to be told. As they arrived they found that a Golgothan group indeed had camped their and left the place in disarray. The emerald green banner had been taken down and rubbish left behind - nobody responsible to be seen in a mile around.
Guess they had pledged their evil souls all night at the Altar of Abraxas close by to the tower or mistaningly wandered into our tower.
So our heroes had a healthy breakfast and then cleaned up the tower again - so the Wandering Merchant is back in as good a condition as Guildenstern left it for us.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm not entirely sure but I'd guess the problem is (at this stage of the game) the consequences for murderers/bandits are far less severe than the victim's. And, as far as I know, that is not at all how it is intended or described.The primary deterrents are social as reflected by the rep system which will limit trainiing, and gear access (ie. will crafters equip you), the end result being lower powered characters for pvp behaviour that does not reflect appropriate gameplay. Some people feel a bounty system will be a deterrent, but there is nothing to stop bounties from being offered now. There will always be situations where pvp will be able to occur without rep loss (feuds, wars, factions, open pvp windows on towers/holdings), just as the scenario that started this happened in.
Some people talk about consequences as though they are actually supposed to limit pvp. They aren't. Consequences simply attach a cost to pvp. They will not, and are not intended to limit <appropriate > pvp. They will gimp the power and development of characters doing inappropriate pvp through mechanisms that are essentially already in place and being iterated. This thread is a good example of how the in-game settlements will iterate their own individual responses to pvp whether it is considered appropriate by game mechanics or not.
Edit: clarified appropriate pvp
But there is no consequences to PvP outside the windows if that person has multiple characters. The loss of reputation is only a deterrence to a new player with one character.
My understanding is that the modus operanti for most PvPers in the game right now is to gank away their reputation, then park that character and switch to another one of their characters who has recovered their reputation points. Rinse and repeat. For them, there is NO consequence that is meaningful in the context of the loss of reputation system. Can't enter any settlement - change to your other character for a while. That is meaningful <sarcasm>.
Also, I hear that the PvPers are doing gamey things with the flag system as well, so that responders also take the reputation hit as well or possibly even getting off reputation free and their victim take the reputation loss.
One thing I have learned is most(note - most, not all) PvPers will game the system if they can. If that is the case, is any programmed 'limitation/conseqence' even possible?
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you assume that your enemy is exploiting by default, then anything they do will look exploitive. That's neither accurate nor productive.
Most of Xeilias's players are actively, deliberately, and legitimately maintaining high reputation. Those few players who have chosen to tank their reputations have suffered for it and complained about it to no end, and will almost certainly choose not to do so again. I haven't heard a single person say "OK, used up my rep, time to play my crafter for a week."
There are definitely bugs in the rep system, which have affected the evil PVPers more than anyone else. When we started taking rep hits in open tower windows, we announced it on the boards and also engaged in careful testing in an effort to replicate the issue; we were unable to do so. There have been a couple of isolated instances of independent griefing in newby towns where somebody would attempt to trick new players into flagging so that they could be attacked freely; those incidents were righteously stepped on and have not continued.
In short: these conversations are far more productive when people stick to describing their own experiences rather than reporting hearsay and inventions as fact.
@Black Moria
I've heard none of those things, though the new patch has a bug with people (including me) taking rep where they shouldn't, even in open PvP windows.
I have enough accounts to rotate through more rep than a single account holder, but I haven't used them that way.
Frankly though, people have multiple accounts and DTs so they can have more power or potential power. Keeping that in mind cycling rep would be just as legitimate play as being able to fill multiple parts of the gather/refine/craft chain.
But I already get more than my share of PvP, so rather than cycling rep, most of my time and characters get used in the same mundane ways everyone else uses theirs.
Unless it's changed, reputation only regens while you're logged in. So they could theoretically do this, but only with multiple accounts.
They changed it to where it comes back slower, but comes back offline too.
You get 30 rep back an hour. A kill on a high rep character takes about 42 hours to get back.