My players have met an important NPC in a variation of the Skull and Shackles adventure path that has Schizophrenia and paranoia. So instead of curing him the long and expensive way, they want to kill him and reincarnate him, figuring that reincarnation should fix any mental instability caused by outside sources as it has been established that was not mad to start out with. Any advice on how I should proceed?
Maybe he doesn't want to die? Plus if he's paranoid they may run into his traps and then he will laugh about catching these "traitors"
Maybe he doesn't want to die? Plus if he's paranoid they may run into his traps and then he will laugh about catching these "traitors"
Oh They are gung ho on killing him,they are the type of party that shoot first and cast speak with the dead later.
I convinced the party of his "importance" to the mission, so they are going to keep him alive ..after they "fix" his mind.
Well, he may not be cured, reincarnate explicitly does not affect the mind, plus, you can't force somebody to accept revival, if he truly is paranoid he may decide he would rather stay in the afterlife then be revived and surrounded by traitors
Well, he may not be cured, reincarnate explicitly does not affect the mind, plus, you can't force somebody to accept revival, if he truly is paranoid he may decide he would rather stay in the afterlife then be revived and surrounded by traitors
Fair point, Thanks
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Sounds pretty meta-gamey to me, but you're the dm. I probably wouldn't allow it, simply because I would have a hard time believing the PC would trust his party members to bring him back from the dead, spending money, and not simply allow him to die and take all his stuff. You, know, pirates and all.
My players have met an important NPC in a variation of the Skull and Shackles adventure path that has Schizophrenia and paranoia. So instead of curing him the long and expensive way, they want to kill him and reincarnate him, figuring that reincarnation should fix any mental instability caused by outside sources as it has been established that was not mad to start out with. Any advice on how I should proceed?Considering how ghosts retain the insanities they have in life, I'd say your players are wrong.
True, thanks
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There is nothing about reincarnation, or even death for that matter, that states that it cures a target of a mental affliction. By the book, the ONLY way to recover from an insanity is the long way (Link). In fact, reincarnation even goes so far as to say that the subject keeps its mental ability scores, providing solid evidence that their plan, while quick, would prove ultimately fruitless.
I would tell your players you have made up your mind on whether or not this will cure him, but you will not tell them. then make the reincarnation experience very traumatic for the NPC and give him MORE INSANITIES! and turn him into a recuring insane villain that blames them for all of his mental distress, not just the new ones from having his soul shoe-horned into another body to make things more convenient for the players.
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That thread title... I know it's a legitimate question, but I immediately thought of Yahoo Answers.
I will say this. The most fun I've had as a GM was playing the role of lunderbud in rise of the runelords. He's an advanced hill giant with literally no part in the story, but he was big and dumb so I played him up like an enraged 4 year old throwing a tantrum as soon as one of the players mis-pronounced his name as "lunderbutt". and hilarity ensued.
Insane characters are a blast to portray, and I would never allow my players to take that fun away from me.
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Excerpts from Reincarnate:
All physical ills and afflictions are repaired.
A reincarnated creature recalls the majority of its former life and form.
Schizophrenia and paranoia are mental afflictions, not physical. You could easily take the stance that he would be reincarnated with 'most' of his past mind.
Also, since a reincarnated creature does not recall all of his former life, he could either be a little better, a little worse, or have no significant change...but it is doubtful that he might be cured.
In the end, it is up to you, but keep in mind that the decision you make now may impact the game later...otherwise your players may use this same tactic later to 'cure' PCs or NPCs.
If it was me, I would tell the player casting the spell to reread the book...and then give him a Knowledge (arcana) or Spellcraft roll. If successful, tell him that his mind would likely not get any better from the experience. The one thing you really should consider though is that if they DO kill him, how his paranoia will affect his interaction with them when they come back.
Sounds like it would be best to stick to restoration (normal or greater) or heal. Reincarnation doesn't affect the mental aspects.
Greater restoration, heal, limited wish, miracle, or wish immediately cures a target of all insanity.
Any particular reason why they're not going with the more straightforward ways to cure insanity?
Greater restoration, heal, limited wish, miracle, or wish immediately cures a target of all insanity.Any particular reason why they're not going with the more straightforward ways to cure insanity?
They are lv 9, no one in the party can cast Greater restoration, heal, limited wish, miracle, or wish or any variation there of, and they are borderline evil. In their minds it would be easier to kill him and speak to his corpse.
I thank all of you for your insight and help. I am going to let them try to reincarnate him, but with it will not cure his Schizophrenia and paranoia. Most likely will have him hound the pc's for what they did to him. Thanks again for your help.
Restoration works too, though less effectively. Just lowers the DC, as opposed to immediately curing. But, well, I hope they have fun with the crazy NPC rising from the dead.
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I thank all of you for your insight and help. I am going to let them try to reincarnate him, but with it will not cure his Schizophrenia and paranoia. Most likely will have him hound the pc's for what they did to him. Thanks again for your help.
Don't you mean that you will let them try to MURDER and then reincarnate him?
You should still give the caster the chance to know that it will not work, after all, he's the user of the spell.
Also, are you not concerned about alignment shift?
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The wording of reincarnate ("Since the dead creature is returning in a new body, all physical ills and afflictions are repaired.") is similar to raise dead, but even more powerful as it takes care of magic disease and curses.
Raise dead, per PRD:
"Normal poison and normal disease are cured in the process of raising the subject, but magical diseases and curses are not undone."
Hmmm... but because reincarnate only speaks of "physical ills and afflictions" I would limit it to physical diseases and poisons, as well as any previous STR/CON/DEX damage or drain... which means "mental ills" such as mental diseases and curses remain, IMO.
I thank all of you for your insight and help. I am going to let them try to reincarnate him, but with it will not cure his Schizophrenia and paranoia. Most likely will have him hound the pc's for what they did to him. Thanks again for your help.Don't you mean that you will let them try to MURDER and then reincarnate him?
You should still give the caster the chance to know that it will not work, after all, he's the user of the spell.
Also, are you not concerned about alignment shift?
I let my players do what they want, and live with the consequences of their actions both for good and ill. If they are inspired to make any check to see if it would work, then I will have an appropriate dc.
My games also plays alignment loose and grey, and since the NPC in question is attempting to kill them/has kill some of their crew, they have no qualms in killing him. The fact that he might know what is going on, has lead them and me to the question of this thread. Even though it will not work, the attempt will add a new dimension to the narrative it they try it.
I agree with all the reasons the plan wouldn't work that have been stated, but I have an additional reason. Say the soul makes it out of the boneyard:
1) He/she goes to a good afterlife. I would say the mental problems get autofixed then, but I wouldn't have a NPC in a game I am GMing who makes it to paradise agree to come back to life.
2) He/she goes to a bad afterlife. Not only would the mental problems not be fixed, but they are probably worse. On the plus side, he/she would definitely agree to reincarnation.
3) He/she goes to a neutral afterlife. I figure he/she is probably not better or worse.
Interesting angle, will think on this. Thanks
I thank all of you for your insight and help. I am going to let them try to reincarnate him, but with it will not cure his Schizophrenia and paranoia. Most likely will have him hound the pc's for what they did to him. Thanks again for your help.Don't you mean that you will let them try to MURDER and then reincarnate him?
You should still give the caster the chance to know that it will not work, after all, he's the user of the spell.
Also, are you not concerned about alignment shift?
I let my players do what they want, and live with the consequences of their actions both for good and ill. If they are inspired to make any check to see if it would work, then I will have an appropriate dc.
My games also plays alignment loose and grey, and since the NPC in question is attempting to kill them/has kill some of their crew, they have no qualms in killing him. The fact that he might know what is going on, has lead them and me to the question of this thread. Even though it will not work, the attempt will add a new dimension to the narrative it they try it.
Generally speaking, a character doesn't need to make a check to know what the effects are of spells that he can cast. In this case the player believes that the rules work one way, and you view them differently.
It would not be expected for a player to be 'inspired' to have their character roll some sort of check to determine if a players interpretation of the rules are correct or not. If a player misunderstands a rule, it is the job of the GM to correct that, and preferably as soon as the GM is aware of the misinterpretation, not after both game time and real time as well as other resources are spent going down a wrong path.
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You know I'm pretty sure there are some varieties of Intelligent undead that are spawn from murdering insane people. Want to make players think twice about this kind of method have him become an undead monster, one the players are I'll equipped to handle is even better.
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Have some fun with this and find an "interesting" and warped take.
For example, change his gender.Woman are generally more mentally stable so maybe cure one of the mental illnesses. However,she's very annoyed st the party for this development.
Or replace his mental illness with amnesia from the trauma.
Basically, reward the party for their creative solution, but give them some side effects.
Allips are for example an undead spawned from madness, and I'm sure there are many more. If the players cast the reincarnation and it doesn't work it serves as a great way to foreshadow an undead attack that night. If it's an undead that can create more the players get to be responsible for an undead infestation that they must resolve before it gets our of hand.
At the very least it will teach the players that there are consequences for their actions.
Anyway, I'll do some research see if I can find any particularly fitting undead.