Does Death cure Schizophrenia?


Advice


My players have met an important NPC in a variation of the Skull and Shackles adventure path that has Schizophrenia and paranoia. So instead of curing him the long and expensive way, they want to kill him and reincarnate him, figuring that reincarnation should fix any mental instability caused by outside sources as it has been established that was not mad to start out with. Any advice on how I should proceed?


Maybe he doesn't want to die? Plus if he's paranoid they may run into his traps and then he will laugh about catching these "traitors"


Hazrond wrote:
Maybe he doesn't want to die? Plus if he's paranoid they may run into his traps and then he will laugh about catching these "traitors"

Oh They are gung ho on killing him,they are the type of party that shoot first and cast speak with the dead later.

I convinced the party of his "importance" to the mission, so they are going to keep him alive ..after they "fix" his mind.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Tom Marlow wrote:
My players have met an important NPC in a variation of the Skull and Shackles adventure path that has Schizophrenia and paranoia. So instead of curing him the long and expensive way, they want to kill him and reincarnate him, figuring that reincarnation should fix any mental instability caused by outside sources as it has been established that was not mad to start out with. Any advice on how I should proceed?

Considering how ghosts retain the insanities they have in life, I'd say your players are wrong.


Well, he may not be cured, reincarnate explicitly does not affect the mind, plus, you can't force somebody to accept revival, if he truly is paranoid he may decide he would rather stay in the afterlife then be revived and surrounded by traitors


Hazrond wrote:
Well, he may not be cured, reincarnate explicitly does not affect the mind, plus, you can't force somebody to accept revival, if he truly is paranoid he may decide he would rather stay in the afterlife then be revived and surrounded by traitors

Fair point, Thanks

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Sounds pretty meta-gamey to me, but you're the dm. I probably wouldn't allow it, simply because I would have a hard time believing the PC would trust his party members to bring him back from the dead, spending money, and not simply allow him to die and take all his stuff. You, know, pirates and all.


LazarX wrote:
Tom Marlow wrote:
My players have met an important NPC in a variation of the Skull and Shackles adventure path that has Schizophrenia and paranoia. So instead of curing him the long and expensive way, they want to kill him and reincarnate him, figuring that reincarnation should fix any mental instability caused by outside sources as it has been established that was not mad to start out with. Any advice on how I should proceed?
Considering how ghosts retain the insanities they have in life, I'd say your players are wrong.

True, thanks

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Oops, missed that it was an NPC. But kind of still applies, I guess.

Scarab Sages

There is nothing about reincarnation, or even death for that matter, that states that it cures a target of a mental affliction. By the book, the ONLY way to recover from an insanity is the long way (Link). In fact, reincarnation even goes so far as to say that the subject keeps its mental ability scores, providing solid evidence that their plan, while quick, would prove ultimately fruitless.


I would tell your players you have made up your mind on whether or not this will cure him, but you will not tell them. then make the reincarnation experience very traumatic for the NPC and give him MORE INSANITIES! and turn him into a recuring insane villain that blames them for all of his mental distress, not just the new ones from having his soul shoe-horned into another body to make things more convenient for the players.


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That thread title... I know it's a legitimate question, but I immediately thought of Yahoo Answers.


I will say this. The most fun I've had as a GM was playing the role of lunderbud in rise of the runelords. He's an advanced hill giant with literally no part in the story, but he was big and dumb so I played him up like an enraged 4 year old throwing a tantrum as soon as one of the players mis-pronounced his name as "lunderbutt". and hilarity ensued.

Insane characters are a blast to portray, and I would never allow my players to take that fun away from me.

Liberty's Edge

Excerpts from Reincarnate:
All physical ills and afflictions are repaired.
A reincarnated creature recalls the majority of its former life and form.

Schizophrenia and paranoia are mental afflictions, not physical. You could easily take the stance that he would be reincarnated with 'most' of his past mind.

Also, since a reincarnated creature does not recall all of his former life, he could either be a little better, a little worse, or have no significant change...but it is doubtful that he might be cured.

In the end, it is up to you, but keep in mind that the decision you make now may impact the game later...otherwise your players may use this same tactic later to 'cure' PCs or NPCs.

If it was me, I would tell the player casting the spell to reread the book...and then give him a Knowledge (arcana) or Spellcraft roll. If successful, tell him that his mind would likely not get any better from the experience. The one thing you really should consider though is that if they DO kill him, how his paranoia will affect his interaction with them when they come back.


Sounds like it would be best to stick to restoration (normal or greater) or heal. Reincarnation doesn't affect the mental aspects.


Quote:
Greater restoration, heal, limited wish, miracle, or wish immediately cures a target of all insanity.

Any particular reason why they're not going with the more straightforward ways to cure insanity?


Kudaku wrote:
Quote:
Greater restoration, heal, limited wish, miracle, or wish immediately cures a target of all insanity.
Any particular reason why they're not going with the more straightforward ways to cure insanity?

They are lv 9, no one in the party can cast Greater restoration, heal, limited wish, miracle, or wish or any variation there of, and they are borderline evil. In their minds it would be easier to kill him and speak to his corpse.


I thank all of you for your insight and help. I am going to let them try to reincarnate him, but with it will not cure his Schizophrenia and paranoia. Most likely will have him hound the pc's for what they did to him. Thanks again for your help.


Sheogorath approves of this topic!


Restoration works too, though less effectively. Just lowers the DC, as opposed to immediately curing. But, well, I hope they have fun with the crazy NPC rising from the dead.

Silver Crusade

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Sheogorath says this thread makes his teeth itch...

Do not disallow them their plan. Let them kill him and, as has been pointed out, have him decline to acquiesce to their offer of revival. When the reincarnation fails and they try speak with dead have them run a (high) risk of speaking with the wrong personality that knows nothing of the information they need.

Never disallow players their ideas... just don't let them play out the way they think they will. ;)

The Exchange

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Tom Marlow wrote:
Kudaku wrote:
Any particular reason why they're not going with the more straightforward ways to cure insanity?
They are lv 9, no one in the party can cast Greater restoration, heal, limited wish, miracle, or wish or any variation there of, and they are borderline evil. In their minds it would be easier to kill him and speak to his corpse.

I think once they've killed a stranger in the belief that "he'll be more reasonable once we've killed him," they've passed over 'borderline' evil and straight into 'evil, yet moronic'.


I agree with all the reasons the plan wouldn't work that have been stated, but I have an additional reason. Say the soul makes it out of the boneyard:

1) He/she goes to a good afterlife. I would say the mental problems get autofixed then, but I wouldn't have a NPC in a game I am GMing who makes it to paradise agree to come back to life.
2) He/she goes to a bad afterlife. Not only would the mental problems not be fixed, but they are probably worse. On the plus side, he/she would definitely agree to reincarnation.
3) He/she goes to a neutral afterlife. I figure he/she is probably not better or worse.

Liberty's Edge

Tom Marlow wrote:
I thank all of you for your insight and help. I am going to let them try to reincarnate him, but with it will not cure his Schizophrenia and paranoia. Most likely will have him hound the pc's for what they did to him. Thanks again for your help.

Don't you mean that you will let them try to MURDER and then reincarnate him?

You should still give the caster the chance to know that it will not work, after all, he's the user of the spell.

Also, are you not concerned about alignment shift?

Sovereign Court

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Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber

The wording of reincarnate ("Since the dead creature is returning in a new body, all physical ills and afflictions are repaired.") is similar to raise dead, but even more powerful as it takes care of magic disease and curses.

Raise dead, per PRD:

"Normal poison and normal disease are cured in the process of raising the subject, but magical diseases and curses are not undone."

Hmmm... but because reincarnate only speaks of "physical ills and afflictions" I would limit it to physical diseases and poisons, as well as any previous STR/CON/DEX damage or drain... which means "mental ills" such as mental diseases and curses remain, IMO.


RedDogMT wrote:
Tom Marlow wrote:
I thank all of you for your insight and help. I am going to let them try to reincarnate him, but with it will not cure his Schizophrenia and paranoia. Most likely will have him hound the pc's for what they did to him. Thanks again for your help.

Don't you mean that you will let them try to MURDER and then reincarnate him?

You should still give the caster the chance to know that it will not work, after all, he's the user of the spell.

Also, are you not concerned about alignment shift?

I let my players do what they want, and live with the consequences of their actions both for good and ill. If they are inspired to make any check to see if it would work, then I will have an appropriate dc.

My games also plays alignment loose and grey, and since the NPC in question is attempting to kill them/has kill some of their crew, they have no qualms in killing him. The fact that he might know what is going on, has lead them and me to the question of this thread. Even though it will not work, the attempt will add a new dimension to the narrative it they try it.


Mechagamera wrote:

I agree with all the reasons the plan wouldn't work that have been stated, but I have an additional reason. Say the soul makes it out of the boneyard:

1) He/she goes to a good afterlife. I would say the mental problems get autofixed then, but I wouldn't have a NPC in a game I am GMing who makes it to paradise agree to come back to life.
2) He/she goes to a bad afterlife. Not only would the mental problems not be fixed, but they are probably worse. On the plus side, he/she would definitely agree to reincarnation.
3) He/she goes to a neutral afterlife. I figure he/she is probably not better or worse.

Interesting angle, will think on this. Thanks


Tom Marlow wrote:
RedDogMT wrote:
Tom Marlow wrote:
I thank all of you for your insight and help. I am going to let them try to reincarnate him, but with it will not cure his Schizophrenia and paranoia. Most likely will have him hound the pc's for what they did to him. Thanks again for your help.

Don't you mean that you will let them try to MURDER and then reincarnate him?

You should still give the caster the chance to know that it will not work, after all, he's the user of the spell.

Also, are you not concerned about alignment shift?

I let my players do what they want, and live with the consequences of their actions both for good and ill. If they are inspired to make any check to see if it would work, then I will have an appropriate dc.

My games also plays alignment loose and grey, and since the NPC in question is attempting to kill them/has kill some of their crew, they have no qualms in killing him. The fact that he might know what is going on, has lead them and me to the question of this thread. Even though it will not work, the attempt will add a new dimension to the narrative it they try it.

Generally speaking, a character doesn't need to make a check to know what the effects are of spells that he can cast. In this case the player believes that the rules work one way, and you view them differently.

It would not be expected for a player to be 'inspired' to have their character roll some sort of check to determine if a players interpretation of the rules are correct or not. If a player misunderstands a rule, it is the job of the GM to correct that, and preferably as soon as the GM is aware of the misinterpretation, not after both game time and real time as well as other resources are spent going down a wrong path.


Tom Marlow wrote:
Mechagamera wrote:

I agree with all the reasons the plan wouldn't work that have been stated, but I have an additional reason. Say the soul makes it out of the boneyard:

1) He/she goes to a good afterlife. I would say the mental problems get autofixed then, but I wouldn't have a NPC in a game I am GMing who makes it to paradise agree to come back to life.
2) He/she goes to a bad afterlife. Not only would the mental problems not be fixed, but they are probably worse. On the plus side, he/she would definitely agree to reincarnation.
3) He/she goes to a neutral afterlife. I figure he/she is probably not better or worse.

Interesting angle, will think on this. Thanks

You are welcome. A healthy dose of the good afterlife bit came from Buffy the Vampire Slayer (who didn't want to come back).


Actually, pulling a Sheogorath, or rather having the PCs "taught a lesson" by some god tossing them into the broken mind of the NPC.


It's very interesting how schizophrenia is represented in the game. Are NPCs with this disorder has symptoms like in the real life? For instance, is there shown that they have delusions and hallucinations like described in this article http://schizophreniaguide.net/bipolar/difference-between-bipolar-disorder-a nd-schizophrenia in any way? The idea of mental diseases in the game is very exciting.


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You know I'm pretty sure there are some varieties of Intelligent undead that are spawn from murdering insane people. Want to make players think twice about this kind of method have him become an undead monster, one the players are I'll equipped to handle is even better.

Shadow Lodge

Have some fun with this and find an "interesting" and warped take.

For example, change his gender.Woman are generally more mentally stable so maybe cure one of the mental illnesses. However,she's very annoyed st the party for this development.

Or replace his mental illness with amnesia from the trauma.

Basically, reward the party for their creative solution, but give them some side effects.


Allips are for example an undead spawned from madness, and I'm sure there are many more. If the players cast the reincarnation and it doesn't work it serves as a great way to foreshadow an undead attack that night. If it's an undead that can create more the players get to be responsible for an undead infestation that they must resolve before it gets our of hand.

At the very least it will teach the players that there are consequences for their actions.

Anyway, I'll do some research see if I can find any particularly fitting undead.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
baconwing wrote:
I would tell your players you have made up your mind on whether or not this will cure him, but you will not tell them. then make the reincarnation experience very traumatic for the NPC and give him MORE INSANITIES! and turn him into a recuring insane villain that blames them for all of his mental distress, not just the new ones from having his soul shoe-horned into another body to make things more convenient for the players.

When ever a player wants to know a fact about the world, I always say.

"How are you asking?" At that point they'll either roll a knowledge they think is appropriate or go look for someone who might plausibly know the answer.


I think you need to decide before this goes down.
What caused his mental issue?
You mentioned not natural..

is it a curse? from a caster? an item?
did someone hit him so hard he has brain damage?

Mental illness can come from a physical reason, and if it was a phsyical reason then some of those reviving effects would techincally work as they fix all physical issues that are not natural or uber magically.
iif it's a curse spell sorta thing, and they use a spell that can fight agianst magic causes.. you could either let it go or have a spell off between the caster levels. or just let the higher level win. bit weird but it's a bit of a weird situation..

If it's the caster level+stat roll off sorta thing. then it does create a situation where the players do get rewarded for thinking out of hte box. but still suffer consequences (alignement shift, relationship changes etc) but it just doesn't compeltely shut them down and railroad them-which some players can take offensively if it hasn't been that sorta game prior.

plus it's always easier to fail aroll rather than come to a situation where your angry at the gm for your percieved "not warned this wouldn't work befoer we spent all these resources" situation that things could lead to

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