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Vote for the option(s) matching the game as you've experienced it (using the + button). If your experience has been different in different adventures, feel free to vote for multiple contradictory options.
(1) I find casters consistently make martials look weak.
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(2) I find actual gameplay to be well balanced between martials and casters.
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(3) I find martials tend to dominate, at least in combat.
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(4) In my game, casters dominate play, except at very low levels.
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(5) Casters dominate only in very high level play.
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(6) Casters seem to dominate the game outside of combat.
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(7) I find caster-martial disparity irrelevant because we work as a team.
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(8) In my games, disparity is prevented by significant house-ruling: E6, banning overpowered spells, or similar.
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(9) In my games, disparity is prevented by the GM forcing so many encounters a day that the casters have to conserve their spells.
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(10) In my games, disparity is prevented by players voluntarily refusing to take the overpowered options.
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(11) In my games, disparity is prevented because players don't play ultra-mundane classes like Fighter or Rogue.
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(12) In my games the GM rolls dice behind a screen and I’m pretty sure 'save negates' spells only work when it's in service to drama so casters aren't as powerful as they're supposed to be.
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(13) In my games, disparity is prevented because the caster players are incompetent.
5, 6, and 10 are the usual experience on my end.
5, tempered by 10.
Martials seem to rule for levels 1-3, then for many levels the balance seems to work out fine. After 10th level, things steadily start to favor the full casters.
We have an agreement to not use a lot of save-or-suck/die and action denial builds on both side of the screen. That goes a long way towards keeping balance and preventing rocket tag.
5, 6, and 10 are the usual experience on my end.
4,6,10,11. that would be my 'average' games. I've played with FAR too many DM's/groups to say those cover every one I've been in.
5,6,7 and 10
Wouldn't a strawpoll be more effective.
Effective in what way?
(9) In my games, disparity is prevented by the GM forcing so many encounters a day that the casters have to conserve their spells.
Granted, this was in 1st Edition AD&D, but had an unintentional house rule allowing spellcasters to recharge during the approximate equivalent of a D&D 5th Edition Short Rest, not because we wanted a house rule, but because we wanted a rule at all, and in the abysmally organized 1st Edition Dungeon Master's Guide the rule about how often you could recharge was not next to the rules about what you needed to do to recharge, and nobody found it until it was too late to retcon everything. The party holing up and Clerics going "Pray . . . put 'em on, pray . . . put 'em on, pray . . . put 'em on" was a thing.
7 and 10 for my group, with touches of 8 and 9.
4, 5, and 6 all tempered by 7
7, 13, and also most of my players mostly play martials.
bump for relevance?
Question for OP - I understand that Fighters, Rogues, Barbarians count as Martials. I understand that Wizards and Sorcerers count as Casters. What does Paladin, Ranger, Bard, Inquisitor, Alchemist, etc. count as, for the purpose of this poll?
Usually 6 level casters are considered casters. The half casters are where things get grey.
firstly yay, my bump was a success.
Question for OP - I understand that Fighters, Rogues, Barbarians count as Martials. I understand that Wizards and Sorcerers count as Casters. What does Paladin, Ranger, Bard, Inquisitor, Alchemist, etc. count as, for the purpose of this poll?
secondly, i agree 1/2 casters probably count as martials but there can be exceptions if played right.
Question for OP - I understand that Fighters, Rogues, Barbarians count as Martials. I understand that Wizards and Sorcerers count as Casters. What does Paladin, Ranger, Bard, Inquisitor, Alchemist, etc. count as, for the purpose of this poll?
When talking about the caster/martial disparity, people generally consider "casters" to be the classes that have a caster level equal to class level, with an emphasis on classes that get 9th level spells. Summoners generally get lumped into this category, while bards often do not. Wizard is the posterboy for "casters".
Martial characters are the ones who get no magic whatsoever, and generally don't get anything beyond extraordinary class abilities (no spell like or supernatural abilities. Fighters are the most common example of "martial" although depending on the contest, rogues or even monks might make a better example.
Classes that get some magic are generally considered fairly well rounded, and not representative of game imbalance.
Some classes like gunslingers have their own weird bundle of issues, and are often left out of the conversation because they are not representative of broad game balance issues between the classes.
If your ambiguous weapon-using partial casters seem notably better, or notably worse than casters, they can be counted as martials.
If they are consistently better/worse than non-casters, they can be counted as casters.
If they seem well-balanced, and have largely replaced non-casters for you, vote for option 11.
If there is no particular pattern, discount them for the purposes of voting.
Careful, guys. Don't make this thread into an argument. That'll make more work for me!
Careful, guys. Don't make this thread into an argument. That'll make more work for me!
hey you signed up for it. :3
If your ambiguous weapon-using partial casters seem notably better, or notably worse than casters, they can be counted as martials.
If they are consistently better/worse than non-casters, they can be counted as casters.
If they seem well-balanced, and have largely replaced non-casters for you, vote for option 11.
If there is no particular pattern, discount them for the purposes of voting.
Weapon using partial casters are grouped as partial casters, not partial melees. Melees are by definition NOT casters.
The base martial classes are barb, rogue, monk and fighter, with ranger and paladin straddling the partial-caster line and basically ignored because, well, they DO have spells, and its enough for them, as prepared casters, to adjust to different situations and close many holes.
==Aelryinth
FFS.
Martial != Mundane.
Cut that out.
2 and 7 for me/my most recent PF group.
I lump casters together (Paladins, Rangers and Sorcerers are all castesr).
Non-casters I consider martials.
I mean, come on, aside from spells, even Rangers are better than Fighters (Animal Companion anyone?).
Take away a Paladins spellcasting and they still have a mount, Smite and those dang saves... Lay on hands... the list goes on and on...
Do the other caster-martial disparity threads turn into semantic debates about whether Inquisitors and Paladins are casters or martials? Or do people just assume their own widely divergent personal definitions and then argue at cross-purposes?
Do the other caster-martial disparity threads turn into semantic debates about whether Inquisitors and Paladins are casters or martials? Or do people just assume their own widely divergent personal definitions and then argue at cross-purposes?
For most of them, neither. Most of the acrimony seems to be about whether there's a difference at all, even between Fighters/Rogues and Wizards/Druids/Clerics....
FFS.
Martial != Mundane.
Cut that out.
stop being so cranky
also: on topic! 39 votes for 4 & 6, seems like a ton of people think it exists.
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One factor I haven't seen here is players not having the system mastery to really exploit casters. I think the power floor for casters is very deep and playing their strengths is often a narrow set of options that I certainly don't see too frequently in actual play. For a lot of players that don't visit boards the concept of a 15 minute workday is alien and they are conservative with spells. Often I'll see sorcerers over wizards because players limit themselves to themes because that seems efficient or a natural thing to do. Sometimes the fighter is super important because players are used to MMOs and they need a tank. (Personally I always put my materials in bottleneck positions to keep monsters away from them mates.
I think you can use option no.13. It's a bit harsh, but it's basically what you're saying.
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"In a game where literally anything could potentially be possible, making sweeping generalizations about the power of classes relative to one another is pretty pointless."
Perhaps you are thinking about a different game? I'm holding a 575 page rule book in my hands (titled CORE RULEBOOK) that lists what is, and what is not possible. This thread is talking about the rules contained in that book. Maybe you are thinking of a game that does not have rules?
(Personally I always put my materials in bottleneck positions to keep monsters away from them mates.Of course this only works in adventuring environments that provide bottlenecks.
True but I always try to be a wall regardless of environment. This is one reason that I argue in favor of self healing and aggro drawing effects for martials despite the latter being unpopular. It makes tanking a real thing and is pretty useful. Of course with third party its a thing in my games so I'm biased.