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Does it have tentacles? Then accord to Mr. Fishy's research, YES...
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Since when does depraved = evil?You need to define SEX first.
Despite dictionary and science, lots of people have very different definitions they assume are the correct meaning on this one.
That said, Summoner is certainly allowed to create a female-looking eidolon for sexual recreation. I'd call this an evil action, as it really isn't any different from giving birth to a daughter for the purposes of sexual recreation. Depraved behavior.
I will note that the First World Summoner is able to create a fey eidolon, so don't restrict it to just outsiders.
Objections to the word, or context?
Basically, summoned eidolon is an intelligent creature being forced to exist as a sex slave. The summoned eidolon can't even commit suicide, as the summoner will just bring them back with a fresh summoning.
Slavery is a lawful action (in pathfinder).
That said, forcing sex on others, aka, rape, is an evil action (in pathfinder).
A character that spends their life trying to summon forth a better rape victim is depraved.
You're certainly allowed to play evil characters in pathfinder.
Not objections as much as humor. There are certainly things I personally indulge in that some might consider depraved, but I don't think of myself as evil. There are even things that are commonly accepted now which in other times and other cultures might be viewed as depraved (or 'evil'). I made the post with a chuckle, not seeking to engage in philosophical or contextual debate.
Lets keep in mind that the normally accepted use of an eidolon is to have it engage in combat on your behalf, both killing things and taking grievous wounds itself up to and until its corporeal form is destroyed... only to have it summoned again the next morning to be subjected to the same. Some might view that as as bad or worse than being used for sex, consensual or otherwise.
Moreover, the presumption of forced sex is an absurd one to make in my opinion. It really depends on the individual context of the Summoner in question. I've run or had run four Summoners at my table:
1) In Skull n' Shackles an outcast half-elf (Master Summoner) befriended an ethereal elemental spirit who shared his sense of displacement, caught as she was between air and water. The two were close, best friends in a world where both were alone, and she taught him not just how to summon elementals to defend himself but also who to draw her more and more into his world, represented by her continuous 'evolution'. I ran her as a Tinkerbell sort, despite the lack of any sort of sexual relationship (she was a small creature and sex was a foreign concept to her that she viewed with mischievous delight), she got incredibly jealous when he did eventually become romantically involved - with a Nereid no less.
2) A brother and sister (Summoner and Master Summoner), twins who shared the same ancestral magic and were watched over by creatures whom had made a pact with their bloodline millennia before. As their bond grew closer, the creatures corporeal form customized itself to their particular needs. Their relationships weren't in any way romantic, but more like an owner with a truly beloved pet and a pet that would do anything to protect its owner.
3) An NPC, a twisted and evil half-elf/half-orc Summoner who was a recurring villain in our games... she was decadent and perverse, and her demon wolf summoner eagerly served as protector, enforcer and lover. It was drawn by her Summons because it most closely mirrored her own nature and would be a natural and instinctive companion.
4) A young wanderer (Spirit Summoner) who left his home and his mother to see the world, encountering in a time of need a silent warrior who rescued him and became a constant companion, training him in the martial and magical arts and serving as protector and advisor. It was later discovered by him that the eidolon was in fact his father, an extra-dimensional creature looking after and educating his offspring until he was ready to join him with the other 'exalted'.
All four instances couldn't possibly be more different and in none of those examples was anyone a slave or forced to do anything against their will. Don't fall into the trap of presuming that your lone interpretation of how summoners 'are supposed to work' is the only one that might apply, and then sit in moral judgment based on that presumption.
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Well... we have clear examples of half-outsider creatures (I mean, it's what Half Celestials and Half Fiends are), so I can't see why you couldn't have progeny with an Eidolon provided it has the necessary bits and bobs to procreate. The real question is what the child would be. I imagine you could have some sort of Half-Eidolon offspring that has evolutions or benefits based on those of the eidolon. Or heck, if you wanted to be really crazy with it, a child of an eidolon could either:
A) Have evolutions rolled randomly based on the HD of its parent, or
B) Have the mutability aspect be controlled by the child itself, so that it could change it's own evolutions, maybe 1/day or something.
Either way, it'd be kinda cool.
Eidolons are creatures just like you and me. I don't know how they procreate, but they procreate some how. An Eidolon's natural state is amorphous, it doesn't have its own shape and is either shaped by the bond between its summoner or it becomes unbound and it's shape goes haywire.
You as the summoner decide what shape it takes (within reason) and its not unreasonable that you would be able to... uh.. ehem... Make it so it can participate in the act so to speak by giving it the possible equipment. However, it doesn't mean that they can procreate with the summoner or any other creature besides another Eidolon. Magic might be a possible way to do so, but naturally chromosomes have to equal each other and line up to create half-breed creatures. If your GM lets such a thing pass.... uh... I guess go for it if you want.... just don't get me involved. ;3
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the eidolon always shares your alignment, i always interpreted that it meant it ways shared your views of things, making it almost impossible for the sex to not be consensual.An interesting interpretation.
Pretty sure what makes it "consensual" is that you ask and they, of their own free will, say "yes."
Does the eidolon have ability to say "no" to their summoner? Isn't it basically a slave?
Technically speaking, if it's bound to your will against its own, that would essentially make all summoners pretty grimbad, wouldn't it? Sex or not? I mean, don't get me wrong, I think I would be very unhappy with being forced to have sex with anyone without it being my choice, but I'm going to be strait with you and say I'd hate being used as a meat shield against my will so very much more.
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On a sidenote, outsider-mortal breeding is kind of par for the course in D&D. A eidolon-touched version of aasimar/tieflings would be pretty cool. I might have to make this a race now. Maybe give them an evolution point at 1st level and another every 8 levels thereafter or something, which they can change around each day.
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Does this really need rules?
The rules of engagement are clear. First you need a ring...
Here we go again...
There are no rules clarifying whether eidolons are free-willed or not, so people should stop stating one way or the other like it's true for all games. It's purely what the GM decides for his setting.
Though considering it's the same alignment as you, enslaving it would be pretty dickish.
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Here we go again...
There are no rules clarifying whether eidolons are free-willed or not, so people should stop stating one way or the other like it's true for all games. It's purely what the GM decides for his setting.
Though considering it's the same alignment as you, enslaving it would be pretty dickish.
Personally I like the fact that there's no Y/N answer as to the eidolon's position as volunteer buddy or enslaved meatbag. It gives you more room to make the characters you want.
Or, as a third option, just a mindless puppet. Hm. There's an idea—a muppet eidolon.
Or...oh god.
Here we go again...
There are no rules clarifying whether eidolons are free-willed or not, so people should stop stating one way or the other like it's true for all games. It's purely what the GM decides for his setting.
Though considering it's the same alignment as you, enslaving it would be pretty dickish.
Really? I was sure Ultimate Campaign had a section specifically detailing how much free-will the eidolon has...
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I searched.
Eidolons: Outside the linear obedience and intelligence scale of sentient and nonsentient companions are eidolons: intelligent entities magically bound to you. Whether you wish to roleplay this relationship as friendly or coerced, the eidolon is inclined to obey you unless you give a command only to spite it. An eidolon would obey a cruel summoner's order to save a child from a burning building, knowing that at worst the fire damage would temporarily banish it, but it wouldn't stand in a bonfire just because the summoner said to. An eidolon is normally a player-controlled companion, but the GM can have the eidolon refuse extreme orders that would cause it to suffer needlessly.
So, yeah. No bad touch unless you decide is bad touch.
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In the case of the Synthesist, if you *became* your Eidolon would you be capable of siring offspring with another person in that form (some sort of Eidolon Bloodline like Impossible springs to mind)?
I'm curious as in a recent game my cohort shacked up with a Synth PC (after being the cohort's mount for a while - gotta love a PC mount with pounce for a paladin cohort with the archetype for riding... we all ended up being their sidekicks by the BBEM and joked her surname ought to be Killsteal...); if there was ever a Mythic Sequel or something things might get interesting... (or would do if the Eidolon PC hadn't suddenly changed gender...
Ofc, YMMV...
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In the case of the Synthesist, if you *became* your Eidolon would you be capable of siring offspring with another person in that form (some sort of Eidolon Bloodline like Impossible springs to mind)?
Fighter PC: "Go f!%$ yourself!"
Synthesist PC: "Don't mind if I do..."
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Technically speaking, if it's bound to your will against its own, that would essentially make all summoners pretty grimbad, wouldn't it? Sex or not? I mean, don't get me wrong, I think I would be very unhappy with being forced to have sex with anyone without it being my choice, but I'm going to be strait with you and say I'd hate being used as a meat shield against my will so very much more.the eidolon always shares your alignment, i always interpreted that it meant it ways shared your views of things, making it almost impossible for the sex to not be consensual.An interesting interpretation.
Pretty sure what makes it "consensual" is that you ask and they, of their own free will, say "yes."
Does the eidolon have ability to say "no" to their summoner? Isn't it basically a slave?
Maybe I've been viewing them wrong, but I've always thought the summoner was always a bit of a monster. He's always seemed to be a PC that doesn't fight his own battles and forces others to fight for him.
That said, the class is in appeal to the pokemon crowd. "Go Eidolon!"
On a side note, you can make a much stronger summoner pet by taking a fighter (or another class with full BAB) and then taking a familiar (eldrich heritage, in example). Have the familiar resemble a humanoid child and make the fighter more monstrous. Then just role play your fighter as an eidolon of the familiar.
I searched.
Eidolons: Outside the linear obedience and intelligence scale of sentient and nonsentient companions are eidolons: intelligent entities magically bound to you. Whether you wish to roleplay this relationship as friendly or coerced, the eidolon is inclined to obey you unless you give a command only to spite it. An eidolon would obey a cruel summoner's order to save a child from a burning building, knowing that at worst the fire damage would temporarily banish it, but it wouldn't stand in a bonfire just because the summoner said to. An eidolon is normally a player-controlled companion, but the GM can have the eidolon refuse extreme orders that would cause it to suffer needlessly.So, yeah. No bad touch unless you decide is bad touch.
Interesting.
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I am waiting for the Succubus in a Grapple to arrive.
Also, post number.
Immature comments aside, I believe the relationship itself should be reasonable, considering it makes sense and is well-written/told. The capability of intercourse itself is as malleable as the Eidolon itself, soo...
As for the procreation, I am stayin' the hell outta this subject.
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On a side note, you can make a much stronger summoner pet by taking a fighter (or another class with full BAB) and then taking a familiar (eldrich heritage, in example). Have the familiar resemble a humanoid child and make the fighter more monstrous. Then just role play your fighter as an eidolon of the familiar.
I don't know why anyone would trade an eidolon for a fighter. It just seems like such a huge downgrade.
That said, the class is in appeal to the pokemon crowd. "Go Eidolon!"
Odd, it seemed to share far more in common with Final Fantasy summoning like from FFX. Y'know, the one where Yuna calls out a big beastie to fight the BBEG for a bit, it gets smacked down, she calls another big beastie, etc. I think they might have even been called Eidolons in that (it's been a while since I played).
Besides, pokemon trainers 6 different pokemon for different purposes. Everyone knows that! :P
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If you really insist that the eidolon is a “slave” then all Summoners are slavers by and perhaps the class takes on a darker tone. If you’re really a slaver compelling the eidolon against its will (which I don’t think is at all the case by RAW) I’m still not sure why forcing your slave into sex would be so much worse than forcing it into combat. In combat the eidolon will face pain and fear while it kills people. If sex is worse than killing people it seems like kind of an uptight world.
On the other hand, Summoner might be a great class for a pimp. Maybe the Scarlet Pimp Pernell likes spreading contentment and redistributing wealth wherever he and his sexy eidolons go. He pimps for the rich and pays to the poor. He’s the pimping Communist hero your fantasy countryside needs, and his girls (or whatever you dig) never get tired or bored. I always imagined Pernell being a Bard, but I guess there's always room for new innovation.
If you really insist that the eidolon is a “slave” then all Summoners are slavers by and perhaps the class takes on a darker tone. If you’re really a slaver compelling the eidolon against its will (which I don’t think is at all the case by RAW) I’m still not sure why forcing your slave into sex would be so much worse than forcing it into combat. In combat the eidolon will face pain and fear while it kills people. If sex is worse than killing people it seems like kind of an uptight world.
On the other hand, Summoner might be a great class for a pimp. Maybe the Scarlet Pimp Pernell likes spreading contentment and redistributing wealth wherever he and his sexy eidolons go. He pimps for the rich and pays to the poor. He’s the pimping Communist hero your fantasy countryside needs, and his girls (or whatever you dig) never get tired or bored. I always imagined Pernell being a Bard, but I guess there's always room for new innovation.
Lol that is funny.
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The succubus also kills you. Just a note.SO many thoughts... mostly about that whole tentacle evolution and the myriad of possibilities you have in your choice of conjured sex puppet.
I don't know that I would call it evil though... A wizard could summon an Angel and a Succubus and do roughly the same thing... No guarantee for the progeny but... you know.
Silly, that's why you use protection. Death Ward - don't leave home without it!
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I just had a really cool idea for a summoner who uses thee eidolon as a "pimp" who markets the summoner and protects her. They could even lead a cities seamstresses guild, if you know what I mean.
Oh? And who are you getting Death Ward from, the party paladin?
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Whoops. S&&~. I think we're in critical danger of invoking three of the five-or-so Neverending Discussions:
- Fooling around with the eidolon
- Succubus in a grapple
And now,
- Paladins
If sex is worse than killing people it seems like kind of an uptight world.
On public TV I see people shooting other people much more often than f$~~ing them.
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Guys, this is the sort of thread we never want non-RPGers to see.
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Odd, it seemed to share far more in common with Final Fantasy summoning like from FFX. Y'know, the one where Yuna calls out a big beastie to fight the BBEG for a bit, it gets smacked down, she calls another big beastie, etc. I think they might have even been called Eidolons in that (it's been a while since I played).Besides, pokemon trainers 6 different pokemon for different purposes. Everyone knows that! :P
They were Aeons in FFX. Eidolons were in FFIV though, and as I recall Rydia created them from her own mind, not simply received them from a place.
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Guys, this is the sort of thread we never want non-RPGers to see.
We are already devil-worshipers who aim to roll 666 six times in a row as the very first thing in every campaign.
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Summoners have high charisma, eidolons tend towards low wis / int...
Perform sex? Sure. It seems like a cosmetic detail.
Make babies? I would say no.
I consider the eidolon as part of summoner. For example, take slit brain patients in the real world. Both halves of their brain are still part of them, but they work more or less independently. If such a person masturbated, it wouldn't be one half of the brain forcing the other into sex.
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Whoops. S%$*. I think we're in critical danger of invoking three of the five-or-so Neverending Discussions:
- Fooling around with the eidolon
- Succubus in a grapple
And now,
- Paladins
Just for general knowledge, are the other two the Caster-Martial disparity and Roll vs Roleplaying? Just trying to find an in character explanation why I'm putting points in Knowledge(Paizo Forums)...
Damn forums lurkers don't get enough skill points per post, though I took the trait that gives it to me as a Class Skill.
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Silly, that's why you use protection. Death Ward - don't leave home without it!The succubus also kills you. Just a note.SO many thoughts... mostly about that whole tentacle evolution and the myriad of possibilities you have in your choice of conjured sex puppet.
I don't know that I would call it evil though... A wizard could summon an Angel and a Succubus and do roughly the same thing... No guarantee for the progeny but... you know.
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All of the Goddesses are his harem.It has been said that Cayden possibly took the Test of the Starstone in order to get it on with Calistria.BEER FOR CAYDEN CAILEAN, cause seriously he strikes me as the type to do the deed with an outsider if she was hot.MILK FOR THE KHORNE FLAKES!generally removing people's freedom is a lawful and slightly evil action, since chaos want's freedom for everyone.FREEDOM FOR THE FREEDOM GOD!
He wishes.
Though it is a pretty common rumor that he has hit on every female god at least once, with the possible exception of Urgathoa
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I made popcorn if anyone wants some.
Right over here.
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On a side note, you can make a much stronger summoner pet by taking a fighter (or another class with full BAB) and then taking a familiar (eldrich heritage, in example). Have the familiar resemble a humanoid child and make the fighter more monstrous. Then just role play your fighter as an eidolon of the familiar.I don't know why anyone would trade an eidolon for a fighter. It just seems like such a huge downgrade.
That said, the class is in appeal to the pokemon crowd. "Go Eidolon!"Odd, it seemed to share far more in common with Final Fantasy summoning like from FFX. Y'know, the one where Yuna calls out a big beastie to fight the BBEG for a bit, it gets smacked down, she calls another big beastie, etc. I think they might have even been called Eidolons in that (it's been a while since I played).
Besides, pokemon trainers 6 different pokemon for different purposes. Everyone knows that! :P
Huh...thought the eidolon was the downgraded fighter. Perhaps it depends what you end up using it for? A 10HD fighter just seems so much better than an 8HD eidolon at 10th level.
Never got into final fantasy, so didn't really think about the relation. My little brother got pretty hardcore into pokemon, for a period, so I did get a bunch of exposure to that one. I was still a bit old for it.
As for Pokemon, main guy, ash, always has his main pokemon out, then summons the others later. Summoner has the eidolon and the summon monster ability.
Yet another reason to ban Summoners.
Yet another reason to ban Summoners.Seems like a popular line of thought, but I've not seen any summoners that struck me as that overpowered. Maybe too much for pregenerated campaigns?
I wasn't talking "overpowered."
I was talking about this perversion.
That is the impression I have had as well.Yet another reason to ban Summoners.Seems like a popular line of thought, but I've not seen any summoners that struck me as that overpowered. Maybe too much for pregenerated campaigns?
it basically a barbarian with all those attacks on a pounce. that's basically it though. barring the summoner actually summoning tons of summons other than his eidolon.
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I wasn't talking "overpowered."
I was talking about this perversion.
... Yeah, you don't need a Summoner to start figuring out ways to get kinky with Pathfinder classes.
Any crafter can create an intelligent Dancing weapon, probably a whip
Familiars. Animal Companions. Enough said.
Hold Person freezes the target "in place". Find a partner into that sort of thing...
Unseen Servant. Think about it.
Read the Unnatural Lust spell.
Alchemist. Tentacles. Enough said.
Beast Shape, Monstrous Physique, etc. So thus far we have abilities available to:
Bard, Cleric, Druid, Paladin, Ranger, Sorcerer, Wizard, Alchemist, Cavalier, Inquisitor, Magus, Oracle, Witch, Antipaladin, Samurai, Arcanist, Bloodrager, Hunter, Investigator, Shaman, Skald, Warpriest.
The only classes that aren't on that list are straight martials (Barbarian, Fighter, Monk, Rogue, Gunslinger, Ninja, Brawler, Swashbuckler). Even then, if I scanned through the list of Poisons I could probably find something that would add Rogue and Ninja to the list; same with Barbarians and Rage Powers. That list was entirely off the top of my head, save research to make sure that all the casting classes got access to one of those or had a pet. Or both.
I can do worse with Mythic. The ability that makes illusions real? Think about that one.
Seriously, if you're going to ban Summoners as a class for this, you're probably in trouble.
Headband of seduction.