Something I noticed a long time ago, but always forget to mention--> One problem with X is OP debate threads is that one side is normally arguing from the viewpoint of "The most powerful(theoretical or not) build you can have in a game, and some others are using mid-level optimization as the baseline.
One thing I liked about the DPR thread is that many of the builds were supposed to be practical builds, and not using what might be allowed in theory/vary by table.
PS: I have no problem with highly optimized builds, but they should not be used as the standard for proving "X is OP:. Now if you want to prove what is possible that is another debate.
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I had forgotten about greater aspect.
S'why I said depending on the level of the summoner. Summoners are nasty. It's a complete myth that they're somehow this timid little loser who has to hide behind Big Mr. E. :P
God forbid you have a half-elf summoner as then you get an extra 5 evolution points to play around with, so you and your eidolon just end up freakin' sweet. And evolution surge...ooh, those spells are sexy. *shudders*
All this talking about summoners makes me want to play one, but would I be able to look myself in the mirror tomorrow? Hm, maybe... :3
I had forgotten about greater aspect.S'why I said depending on the level of the summoner. Summoners are nasty. It's a complete myth that they're somehow this timid little loser who has to hide behind Big Mr. E. :P
God forbid you have a half-elf summoner as then you get an extra 5 evolution points to play around with, so you and your eidolon just end up freakin' sweet. And evolution surge...ooh, those spells are sexy. *shudders*
All this talking about summoners makes me want to play one, but would I be able to look myself in the mirror tomorrow? Hm, maybe... :3
Yeah.. :)
I still think the astral construct menu model would have been a better way to do the eidolon. That is what I was expecting.
Oh well, that ship has sailed unless the Unchained book has drastic alterations.
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Something I noticed a long time ago, but always forget to mention--> One problem with X is OP debate threads is that one side is normally arguing from the viewpoint of "The most powerful(theoretical or not) build you can have in a game, and some others are using mid-level optimization as the baseline.
One thing I liked about the DPR thread is that many of the builds were supposed to be practical builds, and not using what might be allowed in theory/vary by table.
PS: I have no problem with highly optimized builds, but they should not be used as the standard for proving "X is OP:. Now if you want to prove what is possible that is another debate.
That's actually why I didn't even bring "playing dirty" into it, other than to note that the rabbit hole goes a lot farther than using a few simple spells and his class features to beat the living piss out of a ranger. >_>
But the funniest part is, that guy (who said the thing about the ranger) was making some point (I forgot what it was now) about ranger minus AC vs Summoner minus Eidolon, and yet the comparison is hilarious because the summoner can probably still beat the ranger handily at most levels and beat him in melee at high levels, all while lacking his most noteworthy of special features (his eidolon). Except that in an actual fight, the summoner has that eidolon (because summon eidolon), and his other stuff. I feel a Ranger would be very hard pressed to take on a summoner and his eidolon by himself. Heck, I'd be afraid of trying to take on a caster with gate at all since they can call in minions of my CR or greater.
And I love rangers. :|
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I had forgotten about greater aspect.S'why I said depending on the level of the summoner. Summoners are nasty. It's a complete myth that they're somehow this timid little loser who has to hide behind Big Mr. E. :P
God forbid you have a half-elf summoner as then you get an extra 5 evolution points to play around with, so you and your eidolon just end up freakin' sweet. And evolution surge...ooh, those spells are sexy. *shudders*
All this talking about summoners makes me want to play one, but would I be able to look myself in the mirror tomorrow? Hm, maybe... :3
Yeah.. :)
I still think the astral construct menu model would have been a better way to do the eidolon. That is what I was expecting.
Oh well, that ship has sailed unless the Unchained book has drastic alterations.
Oh lord, don't get me started on how much I love astral construct and metamorphosis powers. I just want to make more and more special abilities to select for those powers to add more and more options. Which I wouldn't even mind as a GM since you're still limited to X options. I just love them so much more than summoning spells. :P
And what spells are those exactly? They get the best conjuration spells (calling/summoning, transportation, and CC spells), the best abjuration spells sans disjunction* (including spell turning, the dispel line, the dismissal/banishment line, resist energy spells, stoneskin, and even utility stuff like alarm), they get the best illusion spells (including the invisibility line, blur/displacement, improved invisibility as a 3rd level spell, and simulacrum for goodness sakes), they get all the best transmutation spells sans the polymorph line of spells (which they don't need because their eidolon is already loaded for and they still get alter self for utility), and they get the best enchantment spells (charm/dominate monster, heroism spells), and they even cherry pick some of the other strongest spells in the game (like magic jar).
A lot of this ends up being dependent on the campaign being run. Getting through Skull and Shackles with a summoner as our arcane spell caster is a challenge. Summoner spells tend to be fairy short range, so you end up smarting for long-distance damage spells. You can send your eidolon out but you first have to unfetter him (contributing to your enabling spell overhead) and give it a useful movement mode and speed (tying up evolution points and keeping it from being an overbalanced combat monster).
You're listing off a whole bunch of good spells to know, but that summoner isn't going to know all of them, particularly not if he's also learning spells to maintain his eidolon.
You're listing off a whole bunch of good spells to know, but that summoner isn't going to know all of them, particularly not if he's also learning spells to maintain his eidolon.
Which is why you don't need all of them. Just consumables of them. Which are cheap. Epic cheap in fact because the vast majority of them have been super discounted.
EDIT: That said, the last time I made a summoner for a thing, I had all my good spells as spells known. It was the extra stuff like rejuvinate eidolon that got the wand of cure light wounds treatment.
Summoner is easy to optimize. All builds posted in this thread are ones that are based on picking obvious evolutions and feats. Maxing natural attacks and picking improved natural armor, extra strength, and power attack are kinda no brainers for any summoner.Something I noticed a long time ago, but always forget to mention--> One problem with X is OP debate threads is that one side is normally arguing from the viewpoint of "The most powerful(theoretical or not) build you can have in a game, and some others are using mid-level optimization as the baseline.
One thing I liked about the DPR thread is that many of the builds were supposed to be practical builds, and not using what might be allowed in theory/vary by table.
PS: I have no problem with highly optimized builds, but they should not be used as the standard for proving "X is OP:. Now if you want to prove what is possible that is another debate.
That was a general statement, not really just for this specific class.
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A lot of this ends up being dependent on the campaign being run. Getting through Skull and Shackles with a summoner as our arcane spell caster is a challenge. Summoner spells tend to be fairy short range, so you end up smarting for long-distance damage spells. You can send your eidolon out but you first have to unfetter him (contributing to your enabling spell overhead) and give it a useful movement mode and speed (tying up evolution points and keeping it from being an overbalanced combat monster).You're listing off a whole bunch of good spells to know, but that summoner isn't going to know all of them, particularly not if he's also learning spells to maintain his eidolon.
When we ran Skulls and Shackles, a Master Summoner was our arcane caster and he just wrecked town. His eidolon was a skill-monkey/scout adapted to all environments, and his ability to field nasty minions appropriate to any situation trivialized a lot of encounters.
Before we get into the whole "Master Summoner is OP and different than the core Summoner", the reality is that an unarchetyped Summoner would have had almost exactly the same impact on the game. He'd still be able to whip up mounts, environment appropriate allies, etc., utilize any magical goodies we stumbled across, and be capable of basically soloing encounters. Fortunately, the guy playing the MS focused on facilitating the party and the other players were new enough that they didn't recognize how often he was taking a suboptimal or reserved approach so that they could participate, but a Summoner could easily play through Skulls and Shackles without any party at all.
When we ran Skulls and Shackles, a Master Summoner was our arcane caster and he just wrecked town. His eidolon was a skill-monkey/scout adapted to all environments, and his ability to field nasty minions appropriate to any situation trivialized a lot of encounters.
Before we get into the whole "Master Summoner is OP and different than the core Summoner", the reality is that an unarchetyped Summoner would have had almost exactly the same impact on the game. He'd still be able to whip up mounts, environment appropriate allies, etc., utilize any magical goodies we stumbled across, and be capable of basically soloing encounters. Fortunately, the guy playing the MS focused on facilitating the party and the other players were new enough that they didn't recognize how often he was taking a suboptimal or reserved approach so that they could participate, but a Summoner could easily play through Skulls and Shackles without any party at all.
Sounds like it didn't matter what sort of spell caster he took, his level of system mastery was far enough ahead of other players that he could have dominated anyways.
I wonder how much of your experience is because the summons list for aquatic creatures tend to be more powerful than land creatures. Unless he was human, he couldn't have started with augmented summons. That means except for the pony and dolphin none of the creatures summoned have very many hit points. The pony is docile so it really shouldn't want to fight.
How good was his handle animal skill? Was he consistently making the DC 20 rolls to get them into combat? Did you have someone else with spell craft, so he didn't have to spend skill ranks on that and could focus on other skills?
I'm not familiar with the Skulls & Shackles AP, but it seems that soloing it would be tough if you have anything other than pure combat.
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The fact that he had far more castings of summon monster than any other caster could possibly bring to bear was a large factor; the summoner generally has twice as many (or more) of the highest level spell a wizard could bring to bear thanks to his SLA and early access options. The Master Summoner obviously exacerbates that.
You don't need Handle Animal to make summoned monsters attack, that's specifically covered by the summon monster spell, where it says the summoned creature "attacks as you direct it".
At 1st level, nothing has many hit points, so that's really not a relevant point to anything.
As far as the experience being a result of aquatic creatures being stronger - this isn't the only time we've had a summoner in the group. It was just an anecdotal response to someone saying the AP influenced how strong/effective the summoner was and quoting Skulls and Shackles as an example. Our experience was that the summoner was actually very effective in that AP.
The class has also been ridiculously potent in every other game I've played in, whether it was a PFS character already hampered with houserules or a homebrew where the GM thought he knew how to mitigate a summoner because of reading some misinformation on the internet about the class being just fine if you know the rules. Turns out, the rules don't actually slow the class down much, because the RAW summoner is really strong.
As I noted (and actually linked to a video of) earlier, even the lead designer at Paizo, the guy who wrote the class, thinks it's crazy broken. The guy who wrote the class and the rules obviously knows the rules, both RAW and RAI, and still thinks its broken.
You don't need Handle Animal to make summoned monsters attack, that's specifically covered by the summon monster spell, where it says the summoned creature "attacks as you direct it".
The Pony specifically has the Docile SQ.
As for other animals, you need a special trick to make them attack certain 'unnatural' things, such as undead. Summoned creatures are still creatures of that type, so you would need to force them to attack such creatures. Why else would the Summoner get Handle Animal as a class skill?
You don't need Handle Animal to make summoned monsters attack, that's specifically covered by the summon monster spell, where it says the summoned creature "attacks as you direct it".The Pony specifically has the Docile SQ.
As for other animals, you need a special trick to make them attack certain 'unnatural' things, such as undead. Summoned creatures are still creatures of that type, so you would need to force them to attack such creatures. Why else would the Summoner get Handle Animal as a class skill?
Handle Animal is for getting the animals to do something other than attack.
I agree that Summon Monster includes "attack" as part of the spell. That's basically all it includes. For anything else, you need to Handle Animal. You couldn't even get the summoned animals to follow you around without it, as that isn't "attacks as you direct it". Without something to attack, they would just wander off.
This spell summons an extraplanar creature (typically an outsider, elemental, or magical beast native to another plane). It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions.
The summoned creatures don't need to be forced to attack your enemies. The spell inherently makes them do so. They don't "attack as you direct them."
What you can't do is direct them to attack a specific foe, or stop attacking, or do some other service, unless you can communicate with them.
For myself, I don't see that the base Summoner is broken. The Master Summoner, however, is. They simply went off the deep end as the designers sat down and said: "Alright - I'm a Summoner. What else should I be able to do? Shouldn't my summons last longer? Okay! 10x duration! Shouldn't I be able to have multiple summons in play? Boom! You got it!"
Most of the SLA summoning shenanigans could be fixed by only allowing the single creature use of the spell like Warpriest does. Summoning multiples with one spell is often both more exploitable and more likely to slow down play.
It's not that I don't think Summoners are OP. It's just that:
1) They aren't "that" OP.
2) There are other classes/archetypes just as OP.
3) The number of minor fixes needed to bring the class in-line is small.
This spell summons an extraplanar creature (typically an outsider, elemental, or magical beast native to another plane). It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions.The summoned creatures don't need to be forced to attack your enemies. The spell inherently makes them do so. They don't "attack as you direct them."
What you can't do is direct them to attack a specific foe, or stop attacking, or do some other service, unless you can communicate with them.
Let's try bolding this a little differently, shall we?
It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability.
Attack (DC 20): The animal attacks apparent enemies. You may point to a particular creature that you wish the animal to attack, and it will comply if able. Normally, an animal will attack only humanoids, monstrous humanoids, or other animals. Teaching an animal to attack all creatures (including such unnatural creatures as undead and aberrations) counts as two tricks.
So unless specially trained, an animal will only attack humanoids, monstrous humanoids, or other animals. Nothing indicates that the summoned creatures are specially trained.
Let's try bolding this a little differently, shall we?
It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability.OR you can emphasize the first part: "It attacks your opponents...", which means "It attacks your opponents". "To the best of its ability" does not require that it be prompted, forced, tricked, or encouraged to attack. It will attack with tooth and claw, doing whatever damage it can.
Let's try bolding this a little differently, shall we?It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability.Attack (DC 20): The animal attacks apparent enemies. You may point to a particular creature that you wish the animal to attack, and it will comply if able. Normally, an animal will attack only humanoids, monstrous humanoids, or other animals. Teaching an animal to attack all creatures (including such unnatural creatures as undead and aberrations) counts as two tricks.So unless specially trained, an animal will only attack humanoids, monstrous humanoids, or other animals. Nothing indicates that the summoned creatures are specially trained.
I think that may be an appropriate consideration for summon nature's ally, but summon monster specifically summons extraplanar versions of those animals (as GM, I even describe them in fairly alien ways). That throws enough of a wrench in the assumptions that I'm not sure I'd say animal handling is quite as necessary to push them into attacking funky opponents. While summoned to the prime material plane, they're already unnatural compared to more mundane beasts.
I would grab handle animal on a summoner anyways to make my summons do odd things when needed.
I'm actually wrong; Sohei 1 has access. Buy a horse, get Mounted Skirmisher off their prereq-ignoring bonus feats.How does the sohei gets pounce at 2nd?The Eidolon's pounce is, of course, much worse than any other PC's pounce because it's available at level 1. It'd be much less ridiculous if it was level-locked to 10 like every other non-wildshape means of obtaining pounce in the game.Except the Master of Many Styles, who can get it at 2nd.
Or the Sohei, who can get it at 2nd.
Or the Magus, who can get pseudo-Pounce (30' range, extra attack thrown in at a notable bonus, requires a 2nd level spell slot) at 4th.
You are correct, i hadn't thought that.
By the same can't MoMS also get it at 1st level, by using his regular feat to get Pummeling Style and his bonus feat to get Pummeling Charge?
Looking through this thread it's almost as if I was living Ashiel's nightmare.
And loving it.
Looking through this thread it's almost as if I was living Ashiel's nightmare.
And loving it.
Oooh, shiny! *clicks*
That picture is awesome. (@.@)*continues reading*
I think a lot less people would have problems with the class if it was a full 9 level spell casting class, with all it's levels matching up with wizard/sorcerer spells.
I think a lot less people would have problems with the class if it was a full 9 level spell casting class, with all it's levels matching up with wizard/sorcerer spells.If that comes with getting its baseline stats adjusted-- d6 hit dice, no light armor, 1/2 BAB-- and it keeps its relatively narrow natural spell list, that'd help. It'd get rid of its early-access spells at least.
Still has the summoning ability's ridiculousness. And at that point it would sort of make you look between the Summoner and the Occultist Arcanist and wonder why both exist.
Many Summoners aren't going to have the strength for armor anyways. You have to build for that, and Str isn't usually at the top of the list.
As for Summoner vs. ACG Occultist, the Occultist is already more interesting just because of the much better spell list.
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Many Summoners aren't going to have the strength for armor anyways. You have to build for that, and Str isn't usually at the top of the list.
Umm,no. None of the armors the Summoner has access to by default require more than a 10 STR, with lots of room to spare. The Summoner is also CHA SAD, so he has plenty of room in most builds to put a bit into one, two, or even all three of his physical stats.
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Most of the problem with the summoner is that it was trying to be two things at the same time. The first thing is basically what the Occultist is: A master of summoning magic. And this is why the summoner has early entry to so many conjuration spells. The second thing it is trying to be is a monstrous companion class, inspired by things from Digimon to the Fate/Stay series. And this is why the summoner has early entry to so many buffing spells, because the summoner needed something to do while his companion was busy. This is also why the summoner has average BAB and armor, so it can assist its companion in the field, like a battle duo.
So, the current summoner is basically a +hybrid of these two concepts, and if it were only good at one of the above, then the class would be fine. As it is, it can flip flop between the two being fairly good at either, making it like having two separate 6th level spell lists in the same class. In other words, a class getting early entry to conjuration would be fine. Getting early entry to most buffing spells would also be fine. But getting early entry to both at the same time is too much.
The rest of the problem with the summoner is that the eidolon's multiple attacks just stack too well. There would be lots of easy fixes to this. My favorite is simply an attack penalty for every extra attack you have over a certain number by level. So, at level 1 you may only have 2 optimal attacks. If you add a third, then all of your attacks take a -2 to hit when full attacking. This cost would be additive, so if you have 4 attacks at level 4, then you would take a -4 to hit with each attack, because you only had 2 optimal attacks and you now have 2 more. The number of optimal attacks could slowly increase with level. That way, everything currently existing could be built using the same rules, but it just wouldn't be as OP.
Umm,no. None of the armors the Summoner has access to by default require more than a 10 STR, with lots of room to spare. The Summoner is also CHA SAD, so he has plenty of room in most builds to put a bit into one, two, or even all three of his physical stats.
Many Summoners aren't going to have the strength for armor anyways. You have to build for that, and Str isn't usually at the top of the list.
Mithral Chain Shirt, 12.5 lbs or 10 lbs if you go Mithral Shirt.
Light crossbow, 4 lbs,Bolts, 1 lbs. per 10,
Melee weapon(s), 8+ lbs.
Belt, 1 lbs. (you are going to want a magical belt, right)
Cloak, 1 lbs.
Boots, 1 lbs.
Headband, 1 lbs.
Spell Component pouch, 2 lbs
Waterskin, 4 lbs.
Handy Haversack (eventually), 5 lbs.
= 40.5 lbs, or 38 lbs if you go Mithral Shirt.
Celestial Armor is 20 lbs and frequently talked about as the best light armor.
Str 10 light encumbrance: 33 lbs. I find that higher strength can be worth it for the carrying capacity, especially at the early levels.
Ant Haul is on their spell list, but then you are consuming spell slots or cash to make up for it.
If you're not going for a melee summoner, why are you using an 8 lb+ melee weapon? Why is your waterskin not in the handy haversack?
If you're not going for a melee summoner, why are you using an 8 lb+ melee weapon? Why is your waterskin not in the handy haversack?
Longspear is 9 lbs and allows you to operate as a reach cleric. Be careful of that first disarm. Might want a spiked gauntlet, 1 lbs.
Waterskin is because last thing I want to do when exhausted is have to dig through a pack for the water. Yeah, I know that heroes are supposed to be tough, but they still should hydrate themselves. You can take that out.
Now how about the things that people might like that I didn't list because I had already gone over light encumbrance?
Mnemonic Vestment, 1 lbs.
Magic gloves may or may not weigh a pound or two.
If you fill the wrist slot, it may take a pound.
Several slot-less items have a weight.
If you actually want to get out that rope and grapnel to use it, you'll be at medium encumbrance as soon as it leaves your haversack.
This is not my idea of lots of room to spare.
Umm,no. None of the armors the Summoner has access to by default require more than a 10 STR, with lots of room to spare. The Summoner is also CHA SAD, so he has plenty of room in most builds to put a bit into one, two, or even all three of his physical stats.
Many Summoners aren't going to have the strength for armor anyways. You have to build for that, and Str isn't usually at the top of the list.Mithral Chain Shirt, 12.5 lbs or 10 lbs if you go Mithral Shirt.
Light crossbow, 4 lbs,
Bolts, 1 lbs. per 10,
Melee weapon(s), 8+ lbs.
Belt, 1 lbs. (you are going to want a magical belt, right)
Cloak, 1 lbs.
Boots, 1 lbs.
Headband, 1 lbs.
Spell Component pouch, 2 lbs
Waterskin, 4 lbs.
Handy Haversack (eventually), 5 lbs.= 40.5 lbs, or 38 lbs if you go Mithral Shirt.
Celestial Armor is 20 lbs and frequently talked about as the best light armor.
Str 10 light encumbrance: 33 lbs. I find that higher strength can be worth it for the carrying capacity, especially at the early levels.
Ant Haul is on their spell list, but then you are consuming spell slots or cash to make up for it.
ummm more like
Mithral Chain Shirt, 12.5 lbsBelt, no listed weight
Cloak, no listed weight
Boots, no listed weight
Headband, no listed weight
Spell Component pouch, 1/2 lb
Handy Haversack (eventually), 5 lbs.
So like 18 pounds.
Of course, you probably aren't going to have a Handy Haversack until at least level 3. And that's if you don't use your wealth for any other things like getting wands and such. Realistically, you shouldn't have one until level 4 or 5.
I think a lot less people would have problems with the class if it was a full 9 level spell casting class, with all it's levels matching up with wizard/sorcerer spells.I would prefer more the calss if it were an actual 6th level casting class.
The contrapositive does not prove me incorrect, but I see what you are saying.
The main problem is that this class is based on a mechanic that requires nine levels of spellcasting.
Black Tentacles is certainly a summoner thing. The class name is summoner not summon-monsterer.
ummm more like
Mithral Chain Shirt, 12.5 lbs
Belt, no listed weight
Cloak, no listed weight
Boots, no listed weight
Headband, no listed weight
Spell Component pouch, 1/2 lb
Handy Haversack (eventually), 5 lbs.So like 18 pounds.
Really?
You must be using a different spell component pouch than I'm used to.
As for those other items, someday you may want a better belt, cloak, boots or headband than you've allocated for.
Sure, your style choices might be slightly different, but you still need to consider it.
No weapon at all? Not even a spiked gauntlet?
No weapon at all? Not even a spiked gauntlet?
With 10 strength?
No.
No weapon at all? Not even a spiked gauntlet?With 10 strength?
No.
My PFS character is like this. I have a dagger, just in case, but I use acid splash for damage.
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It's worth noting that the reach cleric guide suggests strength as a primary stat - you're free to use a longspear with 10 strength of course, but I don't think your 1D8+0 is going to be very effective. If you only want reach for Aid Another (which is a decent option) you're better off with a whip. 15 foot reach and it only weighs two pounds. :)
At low levels Mage Armor provides the same AC bonus as the Chain Shirt and it doesn't have a dex cap. Lasts for hours, works on incorporeal enemies and saves you anywhere between 10 and 20 lb. Seems like a decent option.
If flying boots are going to tip you over the weight budget you can probably afford 1500 gp for muleback cords. Hell, replace your haversack with muleback cords and you've saved 500 gp! =D
Edit: Realized I might come across as a bit cavalier. Don't get me wrong, encumbrance can be an issue, especially at the low levels when you're scraped for money and can't afford light-weight gear like mithril chain shirts.
However in my experience it's relatively easy to manage even at low levels as long as you prioritize your gear and past level 4+ it is very rarely a problem since there are a multitude of magical methods to trivialize weight issues.
Perhaps more crucially, the problems caused by having an average strength (encumbrance) are much, much, much easier to solve than the problems caused by having a low dexterity, constitution, or wisdom. I'd take the slight inconvenience of having to counter encumbrance over a 10 dex/con/wis any day of the week.
Looking through this thread it's almost as if I was living Ashiel's nightmare.
And loving it.
That IS a nice picture. Where's it from? Final Fantasy, or somewhere else?
Nice rendition of a dragon horse.
==Aelryinth
Honestly can't remember. but here's my best guess.
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No weapon at all? Not even a spiked gauntlet?With 10 strength?
No.
Carrying a spiked gauntlet allows you to grant flanking to allies that are trying to peel an annoying melee enemy off of you.