Put it this way, if there is credible opposition on the field, the sorc needs to cast to be effective. You seemed pretty blithe about the spells ending the fight the first 2 rounds. With a summoner, if the spells end the fight early, great. If they don't, then they can forgo spells and tear the opposition apart with ease.I am not assuming anything. I am just giving an example. The point is that many full casters get their party to "wipe up" stage, and conserve spells. It might take 3 spells, but the point does not change.
The problem is that you said "The sorcerer pretty much needs to cast a spell every round to be effective.", but that is not true at all. It is a false statement for sorcerers, wizards, druids, clerics, witches, and probably arcanist also. I simply countered it by saying how a sorcerer can be effective without casting every round, and not its not theory craft. No, I am not saying that every spell cast will overcome SR or will overcome every save. I am only saying that your statement is false. The pit spells can be cast in round one and basically end a fight, as an example.
For the last time the 2 rounds was just an example. I wont repeat it again and all being a class built around spells it makes sense that it primarily get by on spells just like wizards (best class in the game). And stop moving the goalpost. First the sorcerer needs to cast every rounf. Now the argument is that a class based around spells relies on spells. As long as someone is decent at choosing spells this is a nonissue.
So once again it does not matter if it is 2 rounds or 6 rounds. The point remains the same.
Now stop focusing on the number of rounds. It was never the focal point.
Design Manager
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Of some relevance, Jason Buhlman has blatantly referred to the Summoner as "the most horribly twisted and broken thing in the game" (jump to 24:45), and they're aiming to release a fixed version. So that counts for something.
They can, but it is a 1 round casting time and a 1 minute duration.
I do use this for my mounted summoner, but MAN it is a PAIN. Almost not worth it, especially since it makes the eidolon easier to hit without a commensurate natural armor or HP boost.
This is mostly a style choice, for which you pay a hefty premium.
I disagree. The Summoner already has better action economy than most other classes in the game, and thanks to its numerous natural attacks and comparative expendability, the eidolon is better able to leverage the benefits of the spell than most other characters.
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The problem with summoners isn't the summoner. The problem is and will always be the player and/or the gm. The only time its the gm's fault is if he lets the player play a summoner without knowing about the summoner rules and not pulling an offending player aside and fixing any problems. All other blame lies on the player. Because the summoner is so fluid, if the player's eidolon build is a problem. The player needs to fix it. If the player is taking to long then the player needs better organization and plans stuff better. If he is being a douche and not allowing other players their fun, chances are he would do it with other characters. As far as a fighter not being as good as an eidolon. A fighter cant be banished. A fighter will have more hitpoints and more feats. A smartly built and played fighter will have less problems facing an adversary played intelligently by a gm.
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The problem with summoners isn't the summoner. The problem is and will always be the player and/or the gm. The only time its the gm's fault is if he lets the player play a summoner without knowing about the summoner rules and not pulling an offending player aside and fixing any problems. All other blame lies on the player. Because the summoner is so fluid, if the player's eidolon build is a problem. The player needs to fix it. If the player is taking to long then the player needs better organization and plans stuff better. If he is being a douche and not allowing other players their fun, chances are he would do it with other characters. As far as a fighter not being as good as an eidolon. A fighter cant be banished. A fighter will have more hitpoints and more feats. A smartly built and played fighter will have less problems facing an adversary played intelligently by a gm.
I don't really buy that at all.
1) "It's the player's faultfornot letting other people have their turn":
Really? It's the player's fault that the class chassis is so potent and adaptable that he can participate in nearly everything as well as or better than the classes who specialize in it? I don't think so, especially not given the number of times I've seen new players create one these super builds almost on accident.
2) "It's the GM's fault for not pulling Billy aside and telling him to play nice":
It might be the GM's fault for letting the Summoner in in the first place, but I won't fault him for asking his player to condescend to his fellow players and play down at their level. While a player might be frustrated that he brought the sum total of his system mastery to bear and is still getting out-performed by a wide margin, I know many who would be downright offended at someone "letting" them have a turn. "Come here little Fighter, I softened one up for you. Want me to hold him so you can hit him a few times?"
3) "A Fighter can't be banished":
Nearly as ridiculous as "a wizard can't cast spells in an antimagic zone". Totally aside from the fact that isn't even a level appropriate option in the first half of the game, how many spells actually can simulate a banish effect? 3? 5? Out of literally thousands of spells if you include 3pp options. That's like saying a level 5 half-elf paladin who can deal 1,000 points of damage a round is fine because the GM should be using nothing but Rangers with Favored Enemy: humanoid (elves) and elf-bane arrows. There's also the fact that the Summoner can bring him right back with summon eidolon, making him even stronger by being able to apply his feats like Augment Summoning to the eidolon.
4) "A Fighter will have more hit points":
No, he won't. The summoner can pick up rejuvenate eidolon spells and even feed his own hit points to the eidolon.
5) "A smartly built and played fighter will have less problems facing an adversary played intelligently by a gm":
No, he won't. The eidolon has evolutions granting him innate flight, unique attack options, even SLAs. He also has a near full-caster class feature called the Summoner, so he's infinitely more able to adapt and overcome.
YOU seem to be the one moving the goal posts. You declared that the greater number of spell slots was a major advantage for sorc. I was showing that it wasn't as much advantage as you claim since the summoner has quite a few effective actions that don't involve spells and then YOU started going on about 2 rounds. I was pointing out that 2 rounds wasn't sufficient for many fights and now you say it doesn't matter if it is 2 rounds or 6. It matters quite a bit since if you cast for 6 rounds, that spell slot advantage goes away pretty rapidly.
I told you the number of rounds was not the focal point BEFORE my last post. Now either you missed it or you chose to ignore it. Now maybe I should have not used a specific number but you have not done a great job of getting your point across either.
The summoner has a higher floor than a sorcerer but I still think the sorcerer has a higher ceiling. I say that because I don't need to plan as much to avoid a sorcerer single handedly owning an encounter if I intend for it to be difficult. The master summoner might require more work but one archetype does not define a class.
As for this martial vs frontline summoner debate we should assume they have a party with them and run them vs several opponents. Levels 5 and 11 might work. In order to avoid system mastery everyone should look over the builds to suggest better ideas and to avoid things such as the martial forgetting to buy ammo or the summoner not having evolution X when it makes since for him to have it.
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I can't imagine a bigger waste of time than adversarial analysis of Pathfinder.
PvP tells you basically nothing about how the game plays in a campaign setting.
Well, yes and no. I'm going to jump out and say that PvP is not something that I encourage in my games in the least, however when you get right down to it, the entire game is PvP.
You see, realistically speaking, monsters and players are generally following the same rules. It's not like in games like World of Warcraft where you have different mechanics vs the computer and other players. When you fight a creature it has statistics just like you. It has a role just like you. All NPCs are run by a human mind so there is no "aggro" system (that awful Antagonize feat be damned).
For me specifically, it's irrelevant to me if the eidolon can out-damage a Fighter or whatever, but what is relevant to me is that between the eidolon, the summoner, and his minions, he can fill every role in the party, often better than anyone else. He also lacks certain innate weaknesses of other classes with comparable purpose.
As others have pointed out, while a sorcerer might cast more spells per day, the summoner doesn't need to. He can cast the spells that are needed and he and his eidolon, his summons, and so forth can take it from there.
The funny thing is, despite how grossly overpowered the summoner is I don't actually mind them. Their spell list bugs me more than anything else.
As for this martial vs frontline summoner debate we should assume they have a party with them and run them vs several opponents.This is the key disparity.
Summoners provide more to the party and can single class party pretty well. Sorcerers not so much.
What!? No really what? Since when does Summoner have Heroism on their list? Transmutations? Abjurations (ok they have a couple)? Divinations? Dazing Super High DC spells? Ya, no. Sorcerers contribute *way* more to the party then a Summoner if they want to.
Then how can you possibly have a conversation about the power of a summoner and his eidolon if you don't know about 1/2 the factors involved?
I'm no expert at melee builds so I will not be going there.
Let me try that again.
I'm no expert at melee builds, so I will not be going there. I can build something better than the pregens, but I haven't spent the time figuring out exactly what the best feat choices are for the various melee build types.
On the other hand, I have been playing a Summoner -- no archetypes on it. I've hated not having Obscuring Mist or Fog Cloud to shut down archers. I've found that not getting Waterbreathing and Fly until 7th level really can be a problem. I was even more annoyed when I found out that Air Bubble isn't on their list.
I've also hit situations when the Eidolon goes down but not dead. Hello empty round as it takes a standard action to dismiss.
Now, how much of an expert are you at Summoner?
What!? No really what? Since when does Summoner have Heroism on their list? Transmutations? Abjurations (ok they have a couple)? Divinations? Dazing Super High DC spells? Ya, no. Sorcerers contribute *way* more to the party then a Summoner if they want to.As for this martial vs frontline summoner debate we should assume they have a party with them and run them vs several opponents.This is the key disparity.
Summoners provide more to the party and can single class party pretty well. Sorcerers not so much.
Uh, summoners have always had heroism on their list. Though heroism IS unusual because it's still a 3rd level spell instead of a second level spell =P
Though they do get greater heroism as a 5th level spell. (Edit: Just like bards do.)
You can look at the compiled summoner list over here.
The summoner list isn't as extensive as sorcerer/wizard, but it is by no means a weak spell list. You should probably actually look at it before claiming "summoners can't do _____" =P
(A sorcerer should catch up, and eventually surpass, a summoner as support around 8th level or so, because the sorcerer WILL have more staying power, etc.)
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Then how can you possibly have a conversation about the power of a summoner and his eidolon if you don't know about 1/2 the factors involved?
I'm no expert at melee builds so I will not be going there.Let me try that again.
I'm no expert at melee builds, so I will not be going there. I can build something better than the pregens, but I haven't spent the time figuring out exactly what the best feat choices are for the various melee build types.
On the other hand, I have been playing a Summoner -- no archetypes on it. I've hated not having Obscuring Mist or Fog Cloud to shut down archers. I've found that not getting Waterbreathing and Fly until 7th level really can be a problem. I was even more annoyed when I found out that Air Bubble isn't on their list.
I've also hit situations when the Eidolon goes down but not dead. Hello empty round as it takes a standard action to dismiss.
Now, how much of an expert are you at Summoner?
Enough of one to recognize that the eidolon gets flight as a 5th level evolution so the summoner gains access to unlimited flight at the exact same level as the wizard gets it for a few minutes per day, and before the sorcerer gets it at all. Enough of one to know that Gills is a 1 point 1st level evolution. Enough of one to know that the eidolon can learn obscuring mist as a Minor Magic evolution if I want it. So, a bit more of one than some, it would seem.
Enough of one to recognize that the eidolon gets flight as a 5th level evolution so the summoner gains access to unlimited flight at the exact same level as the wizard gets it for a few minutes per day, and before the sorcerer gets it at all. Enough of one to know that Gills is a 1 point 1st level evolution. Enough of one to know that the eidolon can learn obscuring mist as a Minor Magic evolution if I want it. So, a bit more of one than some, it would seem.
Flight for the Eidolon is nice. If you want to bring along the Summoner at 5th level they have to be size small, the Eidolon would need the mount evolution, and either you increased the Eidolon's strength (total of 5/8th of evolutions) or used Ant Haul via page of spell knowledge or spells known to allow it.
Gills doesn't allow the summoner to breath water until 10th level.
I admit that I hadn't noticed that the Minor Magic including Obscuring Mist as an option. I read through those evolutions when I got Ultimate Magic, but missed that detail. It is sort of expensive for a once a day ability, but still I'll have to think on that.
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Eidolons' (and summoners') saves are pretty bad without gear, though. Even with Greater Heroism. That's basically the only reason the shared item slots are a pain in the ass.I've done this math. The Bidped Eidolon still has better saves than the fighter with some summoner buffs.
Well... "Better than a Fighter" is not exactly impressive... And by being biped, they lose access to pounce.
The funny thing is, despite how grossly overpowered the summoner is I don't actually mind them. Their spell list bugs me more than anything else.
Yeah... I really, really hate their spell list. A revised spell list and revised point-cost for their evolutions (Pounce is 1 point, but Weapon training costs 2? See in the Darkness costs 3? WTF?) would most likely be enough for me.
Well... Evolution costs and the Race Builder do consistently show that Paizo is really freaking bad at calculating point-based build systems...
Well... "Better than a Fighter" is not exactly impressive... And by being biped, they lose access to pounce.Eidolons' (and summoners') saves are pretty bad without gear, though. Even with Greater Heroism. That's basically the only reason the shared item slots are a pain in the ass.I've done this math. The Bidped Eidolon still has better saves than the fighter with some summoner buffs.
IMHO: Pounce is a bad ability. You either devolve your game into rocket tag or the GM throws encounters at you where you can't pounce/full-attack. At best you unbalance the game. At worst you are effectively weaker.
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IMHO: Pounce is a bad ability. You either devolve your game into rocket tag or the GM throws encounters at you where you can't pounce/full-attack. At best you unbalance the game. At worst you are effectively weaker.Well... "Better than a Fighter" is not exactly impressive... And by being biped, they lose access to pounce.Eidolons' (and summoners') saves are pretty bad without gear, though. Even with Greater Heroism. That's basically the only reason the shared item slots are a pain in the ass.I've done this math. The Bidped Eidolon still has better saves than the fighter with some summoner buffs.
The fact that the GM can invalidate an ability doesn't mean it's weak. Otherwise, literally every single ability in the game is weak. There is not a single ability that the GM can't nullify with a little creativity and a mean disposition.
It's no more rocket tag than any other full attack. The only difference is that the Eidolon is doing the opening full attack, instead of taking it after making a single attack.
Never understood the problem with Pounce, really... Why does the GM have a problem with the character moving and full attacking but not with the player losing most of his damage after moving 10ft and simultaneously being forced to eat a full attack from the opponent?
Besides, Eidolons have access to flight, which makes it really easy to find a charge lane. And even if they can't pounce, all they lost is 1 evolution point. Difficult terrain is really easy to bypass, and affects enemies just as badly as it does the Eidolon.
IMHO: Pounce is a bad ability. You either devolve your game into rocket tag or the GM throws encounters at you where you can't pounce/full-attack. At best you unbalance the game. At worst you are effectively weaker.Well... "Better than a Fighter" is not exactly impressive... And by being biped, they lose access to pounce.Eidolons' (and summoners') saves are pretty bad without gear, though. Even with Greater Heroism. That's basically the only reason the shared item slots are a pain in the ass.I've done this math. The Bidped Eidolon still has better saves than the fighter with some summoner buffs.The fact that the GM can invalidate an ability doesn't mean it's weak. Otherwise, literally every single ability in the game is weak. There is not a single ability that the GM can't nullify with a little creativity and a mean disposition.
It's no more rocket tag than any other full attack. The only difference is that the Eidolon is doing the opening full attack, instead of taking it after making a single attack.
Never understood the problem with Pounce, really... Why does the GM have a problem with the character moving and full attacking but not with the player losing most of his damage after moving 10ft and simultaneously being forced to eat a full attack from the opponent?
Besides, Eidolons have access to flight, which makes it really easy to find a charge lane. And even if they can't pounce, all they lost is 1 evolution point. Difficult terrain is really easy to bypass, and affects enemies just as badly as it does the Eidolon.
The Eidolon's pounce is, of course, much worse than any other PC's pounce because it's available at level 1. It'd be much less ridiculous if it was level-locked to 10 like every other non-wildshape means of obtaining pounce in the game.
The problem with summoners isn't the summoner. The problem is and will always be the player and/or the gm. The only time its the gm's fault is if he lets the player play a summoner without knowing about the summoner rules and not pulling an offending player aside and fixing any problems. All other blame lies on the player. Because the summoner is so fluid, if the player's eidolon build is a problem. The player needs to fix it. If the player is taking to long then the player needs better organization and plans stuff better. If he is being a douche and not allowing other players their fun, chances are he would do it with other characters. As far as a fighter not being as good as an eidolon. A fighter cant be banished. A fighter will have more hitpoints and more feats. A smartly built and played fighter will have less problems facing an adversary played intelligently by a gm.
I don't really buy that at all.
1) "It's the player's faultfornot letting other people have their turn":
Really? It's the player's fault that the class chassis is so potent and adaptable that he can participate in nearly everything as well as or better than the classes who specialize in it? I don't think so, especially not given the number of times I've seen new players create one these super builds almost on accident.2) "It's the GM's fault for not pulling Billy aside and telling him to play nice":
It might be the GM's fault for letting the Summoner in in the first place, but I won't fault him for asking his player to condescend to his fellow players and play down at their level. While a player might be frustrated that he brought the sum total of his system mastery to bear and is still getting out-performed by a wide margin, I know many who would be downright offended at someone "letting" them have a turn. "Come here little Fighter, I softened one up for you. Want me to hold him so you can hit him a few times?"
3) "A Fighter can't be banished":
Nearly as ridiculous as "a wizard can't...
I forget that being a douche is ok for some people. I can take any class and play it in a way that it is not fun for anyone else. Just because you can be a douche doesn't mean you should. I never said anything about softening up the baddies so you can take the kids out. If you are playing in a group with other people, and you are doing everything and not giving them a chance to do it... well Your a douche and shouldn't be playing with others. It has nothing to do with the class but with the kind of person you are.
The Eidolon's pounce is, of course, much worse than any other PC's pounce because it's available at level 1. It'd be much less ridiculous if it was level-locked to 10 like every other non-wildshape means of obtaining pounce in the game.Except the Master of Many Styles, who can get it at 2nd.
Or the Sohei, who can get it at 2nd.
Or the Magus, who can get pseudo-Pounce (30' range, extra attack thrown in at a notable bonus, requires a 2nd level spell slot) at 4th.
Or archers... Who can full attack from great distances.
Or casters... Who can teleport as a move action and still cast 2 spells, all in the same round.
Besides, at levels 1-5, everyone using a 2-handed weapon has "Pounce".
Here's a 6th level eidolon I threw together in a few minutes.
Base Form: Quadruped [Size Medium; Speed 40 ft.; AC +2 natural armor; Saves Fort (good), Ref (good), Will (bad); Attack bite (1d6); Ability Scores Str 14, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11; bite, limbs (legs) (2).]
Adjustments for level: +2 Str, +2 Dex, +4 natural armor, Darkvision, link, share spells, evasion (as rogue except without restrictions), devotion (+4 morale bonus vs enchantments)
Ability Boost: +1 Con
Evolution Points = 9 (10 w/ half-elf)
Chosen Evolutions
* Limbs (2) = 4
* Flight = 2
* Improved Natural Armor = 1
* Pounce = 1
* Minor Magic = 1
Total = 9. If half-elf, add INA again.
Feats: Arcane Strike, Multiweapon Fighting, Weapon Proficiency [morning star]
Your Eidolon
HD: 5d10+10 (37 hp)
AC: 21, touch 13, flat 18 (+8 natural, +3 dex)
Fort +6, Ref +7, Will +1; +4 vs enchantments
Defensive Abiltiies evasion, devotion
Speed 40 ft., fly 40 ft. (good)
Melee 4 moring stars +6 (1d8+3) or 2 longspears +6 (1d8+4/x3) and bite +1 (1d6+1)
Special Attacks arcane strike (1 swift; +1 to damage and all attacks count as magic)
Spell-like Abilities (CL 3rd, +3 Concentration)
1/day -- One spell chosen from the following list: burning hands, comprehend languages, cure light wounds, detect chaos/evil/good/law, magic missile, obscuring mist, silent image, vanish [APG] (self only), or ventriloquism.
Str 16, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11
BAB +5; CMB +8; CMD 21
Skills -- 20 skill points (divide as pleased)
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Enough of one to recognize that the eidolon gets flight as a 5th level evolution so the summoner gains access to unlimited flight at the exact same level as the wizard gets it for a few minutes per day, and before the sorcerer gets it at all. Enough of one to know that Gills is a 1 point 1st level evolution. Enough of one to know that the eidolon can learn obscuring mist as a Minor Magic evolution if I want it. So, a bit more of one than some, it would seem.Flight for the Eidolon is nice. If you want to bring along the Summoner at 5th level they have to be size small, the Eidolon would need the mount evolution, and either you increased the Eidolon's strength (total of 5/8th of evolutions) or used Ant Haul via page of spell knowledge or spells known to allow it.
Or I took the Undersized Mount feat from the ACG. Female elf, half-elf, or human can ride a flying quadruped just fine at 5th level with no special spells, options, or evolutions. Also, synthesist has no restrictions on flight.
Gills doesn't allow the summoner to breath water until 10th level.
Non-issue for synthesist. Only an issue for the core summoner if it's an extended aquatic adventure where I can't just quickly scout the forward sections with the eidolon and then swim through. Also, UMD is a thing, and the Summoner is well suited to use it.
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Or, hell, if you want to go all out on a natural attack eidolon that just smashes things and doesn't solve its own problems or get fancy, you can provide its flight yourself when you hit 7th level (because summoners can cast it, for some reason). Also, arcane strike is in question depending on your GM's stance on FAQs=Errata (or even if they go out of their way to read them or know the FAQ exists to begin with), since it requires you to be able to cast arcane spells to qualify, which SLAs don't normally fulfill.
Aside, the Mount evolution literally does nothing. A creature doesn't need a special ability to be usable as a mount. There aren't even any size restrictions on it, just carrying capacity tends to be an issue for things that aren't quadrupeds (although riding a creature ill suited to be a mount imposes a -5 penalty on ride checks). A human can ride a pony just fine.
Form: Quadruped (+2 natural armor, good fortitude/reflex, bite, 2x limbs [legs])
Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11
Qualities: +2 Str/Dex, +4 natural armor, darkvision 60 ft, link, share spells, evasion, devotion
Evolutions (9 points; +1 for Extra Evolution)
Claws (1)
Pounce (1)
Improved Natural Armor x2 (2)
Gore (2) (The interaction with Max. Attacks and taking an evolution that grants two attacks is unclear; otherwise take Claws again)
Ability Increase [Str] x2 (4)
Wrecking Eidolon
hp: 42 (5d10+10 plus 5)
AC: 24, touch 14, flat 20 (+10 natural armor, +3 Dex, +1 dodge)
Fort +6, Ref +7, Will +1; +4 vs enchantments
Speed 40 ft
Melee bite +10 (d6+5), gore +10 (d6+5), 2 claws +10 (1d4+5)
Str 20, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11
BAB +5; CMB +10; CMD 23
Feats Dodge, Toughness, Power Attack (boiler plate feats)
Skills 20 ranks, class skills are Bluff, Craft, Knowledge (planes), Perception, Sense Motive, and Stealth + 4 more.
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I forget that being a douche is ok for some people.
But they aren't being a douche, they're just playing how the class is geared to play, which ends up having the same results as if they were being a douche.
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I forget that being a douche is ok for some people.
Playing a mechanically superior character isn't being a douche, and your sweeping statement is probably the most ignorant and offensive thing I've seen someone post lately. I've seen many players show up at the table and steam-roll encounters both on and off the battlefield by accident. As first or second time players they just went with the summoner because it was cool and followed the natural flow of choices. I've also noted earlier that it's just as offensive for many people to be played down to. Do you really think people at the table don't know when you're condescending and allowing them to participate? Most people I know don't want to be allowed to participate by another character, they want their game designers to preserve a certain level of niche protection and not make classes that they (the designers) themselves think are the most twisted and broken thing at the table.
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Or, hell, if you want to go all out on a natural attack eidolon that just smashes things and doesn't solve its own problems or get fancy, you can provide its flight yourself when you hit 7th level (because summoners can cast it, for some reason). Also, arcane strike is in question depending on your GM's stance on FAQs=Errata (or even if they go out of their way to read them or know the FAQ exists to begin with), since it requires you to be able to cast arcane spells to qualify, which SLAs don't normally fulfill.
I openly admit that I hope a swarm of people start arcane striking everything in pathfinder society because they have some SLAs. I need this. I want to watch the FAQ burn in a fire. =P
Or, hell, if you want to go all out on a natural attack eidolon that just smashes things and doesn't solve its own problems or get fancy, you can provide its flight yourself when you hit 7th level (because summoners can cast it, for some reason). Also, arcane strike is in question depending on your GM's stance on FAQs=Errata (or even if they go out of their way to read them or know the FAQ exists to begin with), since it requires you to be able to cast arcane spells to qualify, which SLAs don't normally fulfill.I openly admit that I hope a swarm of people start arcane striking everything in pathfinder society because they have some SLAs. I need this. I want to watch the FAQ burn in a fire. =P
i see nothing wrong with the fact that the FAQ opens up item creation feats and arcane strike to non-casters, i merely dislike the fact that it limits martial characters to like less than 15 races.
I forget that being a douche is ok for some people.Playing a mechanically superior character isn't being a douche, and your sweeping statement is probably the most ignorant and offensive thing I've seen someone post lately. I've seen many players show up at the table and steam-roll encounters both on and off the battlefield by accident. As first or second time players they just went with the summoner because it was cool and followed the natural flow of choices. I've also noted earlier that it's just as offensive for many people to be played down to. Do you really think people at the table don't know when you're condescending and allowing them to participate? Most people I know don't want to be allowed to participate by another character, they want their game designers to preserve a certain level of niche protection and not make classes that they (the designers) themselves think are the most twisted and broken thing at the table.
There is a difference between playing down to, and playing in a manner that doesn't demasculate other players and still be a productive member. The point I make is that one can recognize the situation where they are taking all of the fun and to make slight changes. Then when the chance is available, make slight changes to the evolution choices.
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I think summoners are fine, but I do have issue with their spell list being robbed by other classes. I just houserule that when pulling spell list shenanigans you have to use the Wizard/Cleric/Druid level and only get to use the Bard or Summoner level if it doesn't exist higher level somewhere else.
Oh yeah, I allow any class to research any spell, but if it's not naturally on your list then you must research it as the HIGHEST level that it is for whatever classes. So like a bard wanting to learn Anti-Magic Field must learn it as a 8th level spell, not as a 6th level sorcerer/wizard.. which I just realized that means a bard can't learn Anti-Magic Field... I'm okay with that.
(I do NOT allow research to give an unlimited spells known... though I've been wondering... I'll start a thread about that... see what people think)
I just read through this.. thinking about using a summoner for a 3 person party (they're two casters, so melee me and melee edolon might be nice; 2 is the most i'm willing to play).
I saw people asking if the first world summoner was any better. why do people thin kit is? As near as I could tell it was just half the stats of a normal edoleon, (i'm honestly not sure what it's suppose to be used for).So, out of curiousity whatsup with that archetype?
Everything is fine up till you read that they can summon Pugwampis. Combine that with some save or sucks and you've got a nasty nasty Summoner.
First World gets a few niche-useful summons (pugwumpis), but people like to read between the lines of its ability to make it sound better than a first reading shows.
Basically the question is whether you assume that the text of its Summon Nature's Ally is all that there is to it, or if we assume the standard Summoner's restrictions and benefits apply. If we take the former case, we're back down to rounds/lvl, but it can be out alongside the Eidolon and can be stacked ala Master Summoner.
Yes it requires reading in-between the lines to get James Jacobs interpretation.
The bigger question is cast time. Player SLA's default to spell time, while monster SLAs default to standard actions.
Player SLA's default to spell time, while monster SLAs default to standard actions.
Really? since when?
I thought all SLAs were standard actions unless specifically mentioned otherwise.
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My experience with a player using a Summoner:
The Eidolon did respectable damage, but then so did the Inquisitor in the party. The difference became apparent when they fought a Tripuasura. The DR 5/cold iron or good turned the Eidolon into the damage equivalent of a BB gun, while the Inquisitor powered through it.
The player of the Summoner was unimpressed by around level 7, and decided to switch to a Sorcerer, which was both more effective against enemies and more helpful to the party.
I can't help but be slightly mystified when people go on about how overpowered the Summoner is.
Yes it requires reading in-between the lines to get James Jacobs interpretation.
The bigger question is cast time. Player SLA's default to spell time, while monster SLAs default to standard actions.
Uh... no. All spell-like abilities have a standard action casting time unless otherwise noted.