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Hey all,
I've been working for some time on a Shaman guide. I love the class, I love its two "parent classes," and I currently play a Life Shaman in my weekly Pathfinder game. I was surprised to see that there was no Shaman guide already, given the class's extreme versatility.
I was also saddened to see that the iconic shaman is not likely to win many hearts and/or minds in PFS play, so I felt obligated to show some of the class's potential.
I've decided to make the current state of my guide available so that I can begin to collect feedback on the sections I've already completed as I move forward and hit the other sections.
The tone is conversational and the opinions are my own. The formatting is rough and by no means final.
This guide is currently a work-in-progress.
I value your feedback - I honestly do. These forums have been kind to me and have taught me a lot about the game. It's a heck of a community.
If you want to argue that something should be rated differently, or I've made an error, I want to hear it. I simply ask that you keep all criticism constructive!
To-do list:
Completed:
To-do list:
Waves/Wind Spirits
Spells
Spirit Animal suggestions
Feats
Magic Items / Equipment
Sample Builds
Add "Why Play A Shaman" section
Archetypes
I like the Speaker for the Past archetype especially
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I like the Speaker for the Past archetype especially
To-do list:
Waves/Wind Spirits
Spells
Spirit Animal suggestions
Feats
Magic Items / Equipment
Sample Builds
Add "Why Play A Shaman" section
Archetypes
Agreed - there are some great options among the initial batch of archetypes!
Thanks for posting this, looks like a good start!
Quick read through:
You should mention that Battle - Hampering Hex is strictly inferior to Evil Eye if Evil Eye isn't mind affecting.
I'd put Heavens blue overall.
I'd mention that Lore is usually better as a wandering spirit, for maximum arcane enlightenment flexibility.
I'd put Wall of Stone 2 spell levels early for Stone Spirit Blue.I'm really curious to see how Shamans take advantage of the new Familiar Folio stuff. +2 Str on a Mauler, or Fast Healing 1 on a Protector, can make some of those spirit animal abilities quite handy.
Edit: I'd like to eventually see a short discussion of Cleric/Wizard spells for Human FCB or Arcane Enlightenment. My quick ones are: Burning Disarm, Shield Other, Remove Disease, Mirror Image, Haste. Shield other and a reach Metamagic rod are a workable replacement for Life Link.
Markov,
Thanks for the feedback.
I agree with you on Wall of Stone, I missed that initially. Thanks for the pointer.
I do plan to do a section for the Human FCB. I feel like a section on Arcane Enlightenment could almost be its own guide... but I'll keep thinking about it.
I also want to do an in-depth familiar section, but I personally see that as one of my lower-priority tasks.
Thanks again!
Agreed - there are some great options among the initial batch of archetypes!I like the Speaker for the Past archetype especially
To-do list:
Waves/Wind Spirits
Spells
Spirit Animal suggestions
Feats
Magic Items / Equipment
Sample Builds
Add "Why Play A Shaman" section
Archetypes
Ok. No. Just no. Default Shaman is best Shaman. The other archetypes trade off way to much for way to little. Possessed Shaman is the only archetype I'd give a "maybe" and even then I'd only recommend it if you don't have a skill monkey. Especially the incredibly awful Unsworn Shaman. Losing Hex is the most tragic thing that can happen to the Shaman.
Remember, the greatest strength of the Shaman is it's incredibly flexible Wandering Spirit and Wandering Hex. Particularly it's ability to hijack the entire Sorcerer/Wizard list with Wandering Hex + Arcane Enlightenment.
I'll also back Heaven being blue, a lot of the other spirit abilities of the others spirits are pretty useless. Turning into an elemental... yawn.
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I also love this class, and am running a heaven/life shaman of level 7, and concur with most what is posted, I have not played many different shaman types, or used archetypes, preferring the normal shaman.
playing a home game, I have asked if leadership and improved familiar would allow my pet to have character levels to work with.
I agree with Markov, Heaven should be Blue. Void adaptation is nice, not needing to breath!?!
I think I was really letting the spell list hold Heavens spirit back. But I agree, it's pretty great.
Agreed - there are some great options among the initial batch of archetypes!I like the Speaker for the Past archetype especially
To-do list:
Waves/Wind Spirits
Spells
Spirit Animal suggestions
Feats
Magic Items / Equipment
Sample Builds
Add "Why Play A Shaman" section
Archetypes
Ok. No. Just no. Default Shaman is best Shaman. The other archetypes trade off way to much for way to little. Possessed Shaman is the only archetype I'd give a "maybe" and even then I'd only recommend it if you don't have a skill monkey. Especially the incredibly awful Unsworn Shaman. Losing Hex is the most tragic thing that can happen to the Shaman.
Remember, the greatest strength of the Shaman is it's incredibly flexible Wandering Spirit and Wandering Hex. Particularly it's ability to hijack the entire Sorcerer/Wizard list with Wandering Hex + Arcane Enlightenment.
I'll also back Heaven being blue, a lot of the other spirit abilities of the others spirits are pretty useless. Turning into an elemental... yawn.
The archetypes do tend to trade versatility, and I'm definitely not in favor of losing Hex - but I like some of the options some of them offer for a more focused build if you know what gap you will be called on to fill.
More on this when I get to archetypes, I guess.
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I've finished with the Waves/Wind spirits. I'm going to take aim at Spells next.
To-do list:
Completed:
Edit: I'd like to eventually see a short discussion of Cleric/Wizard spells for Human FCB or Arcane Enlightenment. My quick ones are: Burning Disarm, Shield Other, Remove Disease, Mirror Image, Haste. Shield other and a reach Metamagic rod are a workable replacement for Life Link.
I'm just curious why you put Burning Disarm on the list? I want to like that spell because it works nicely with my current character concept, but it seems just really quite awful.
I am very interested in seeing this guide develop. I am playing an Animist in an upcoming (think May/June) game, and I can use all of the help I can get.
Bummer that you're only making this now, when I need to have my first spellcaster ever ready in a week and I've decided on Shammy. :p
What you've made all seems like sound advice, and there's plenty of helpful information. Keep up the good work!
I am curious how much more in-depth you'll go into Arcane Enlightenment though. Surely you're not doing another full spell list with comments, but I'd like to see some highlights, Wizard spells that are exceptionally good to grab.
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Bummer that you're only making this now, when I need to have my first spellcaster ever ready in a week and I've decided on Shammy. :p
What you've made all seems like sound advice, and there's plenty of helpful information. Keep up the good work!
I am curious how much more in-depth you'll go into Arcane Enlightenment though. Surely you're not doing another full spell list with comments, but I'd like to see some highlights, Wizard spells that are exceptionally good to grab.
Really the trick is to grab whatever you need for a given day. Need a nice SoL like Create Pit to go with your Slumber Hex? Grab that. Got some downtime? Explosive Runes. That's why I support the default Shaman so vigorously, since it gets multiple "flex hexes", flexible spirit abilities, and a whole flexible spontaneous spell list.
Thank you for the guide, it made me finally read Shaman. And I must say, all the class features except spellcasting look so meh. It's almost like Paizo expects me to only play human or something with access to its FCB and have wandering spirit permalocked into Lore.
Thank you for the guide, it made me finally read Shaman. And I must say, all the class features except spellcasting look so meh. It's almost like Paizo expects me to only play human or something with access to its FCB and have wandering spirit permalocked into Lore.
Another option to get Arcane Enlightenment is to use Spirit Talker to get it, change the spells you select every day if you want, and save your wandering spirit for whatever you'd like.
Really the trick is to grab whatever you need for a given day. Need a nice SoL like Create Pit to go with your Slumber Hex? Grab that. Got some downtime? Explosive Runes. That's why I support the default Shaman so vigorously, since it gets multiple "flex hexes", flexible spirit abilities, and a whole flexible spontaneous spell list.Bummer that you're only making this now, when I need to have my first spellcaster ever ready in a week and I've decided on Shammy. :p
What you've made all seems like sound advice, and there's plenty of helpful information. Keep up the good work!
I am curious how much more in-depth you'll go into Arcane Enlightenment though. Surely you're not doing another full spell list with comments, but I'd like to see some highlights, Wizard spells that are exceptionally good to grab.
This is a good summary. The Shaman is incredibly flexible, and Arcane Enlightenment kicks it into overdrive.
Bummer that you're only making this now, when I need to have my first spellcaster ever ready in a week and I've decided on Shammy. :p
What you've made all seems like sound advice, and there's plenty of helpful information. Keep up the good work!
I am curious how much more in-depth you'll go into Arcane Enlightenment though. Surely you're not doing another full spell list with comments, but I'd like to see some highlights, Wizard spells that are exceptionally good to grab.
In terms of Arcane Enlightenment, I need to see how annoyed with spell lists I am after finishing the Shaman list, but I'm currently thinking of selecting a number of spells that are useful options for each shaman role, as well as a few that are generally useful or have interesting interactions with other shaman spells/hexes.
In terms of Arcane Enlightenment, I need to see how annoyed with spell lists I am after finishing the Shaman list, but I'm currently thinking of selecting a number of spells that are useful options for each shaman role, as well as a few that are generally useful or have interesting interactions with other shaman spells/hexes.
Sounds like a good plan. I know I personally just read a few Wizard guides when trying to figure out what spells are worthwhile.
That said, there's always the big choice of how high to go/how much Int to take. I'm just a noobie with a penchant for research, so that judgement call was the hardest part for me.
(if the opinion of someone who would need to read your guide to know anything is worth a damn)
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Arcane Enlightenment is a bit of a trap. It's crazy MAD. You need WIS for your spell DCs, INT for to get higher level spells, and a decent CHA to get more than a single use out of it. Crazy MAD. To make Arcane Enlightenment work, you pretty much have to dump everything else.
On the other hand, Shamans work just fine as a 3/4 melee type class with some witch hexes and a decent spell list. I disagree that their spell list is poor. It's a bit of a mishmash, with spells off the Cleric, Druid, and Wizard spell list, but there's plenty of juicy stuff there. You can also pull in extra spells through your Wandering Spirits and off the Cleric spell list through the human FCB. It's not hard to build a decent caster without having to bother with Arcane Enlightenment.
In terms of Arcane Enlightenment, I need to see how annoyed with spell lists I am after finishing the Shaman list, but I'm currently thinking of selecting a number of spells that are useful options for each shaman role, as well as a few that are generally useful or have interesting interactions with other shaman spells/hexes.Sounds like a good plan. I know I personally just read a few Wizard guides when trying to figure out what spells are worthwhile.
That said, there's always the big choice of how high to go/how much Int to take. I'm just a noobie with a penchant for research, so that judgement call was the hardest part for me.
(if the opinion of someone who would need to read your guide to know anything is worth a damn)
It's something I will definitely have to address - and your opinion is definitely valued, as I said in the OP.
I think that if you're really planning to make use of Arcane Enlightenment, you need to buy at least a 13 Int at character creation since it only costs three points (assuming point buy), and you get a LOT of value even from the first three levels of spells (especially if you get it via Wandering Hex / Spirit Talker).
Because you need Int to actually cast the spells, you only get a number of spells equal to your Cha mod, and the spells use Wis for the DC... you are already needing three stats to pull this off without even considering CON/DEX. I don't know that a standard 20-point buy can go too much higher without neglecting their HP.
If I'm understanding the way that metamagic feats interact with spell level, then using them could also get more mileage out of Arcane Enlightenment without increasing Int.
There are some great wizard guides out there, so that's definitely something for the mean time. It is definitely a planned section for the guide, though.
Arcane Enlightenment is a bit of a trap. It's crazy MAD. You need WIS for your spell DCs, INT for to get higher level spells, and a decent CHA to get more than a single use out of it. Crazy MAD. To make Arcane Enlightenment work, you pretty much have to dump everything else.
On the other hand, Shamans work just fine as a 3/4 melee type class with some witch hexes and a decent spell list. I disagree that their spell list is poor. It's a bit of a mishmash, with spells off the Cleric, Druid, and Wizard spell list, but there's plenty of juicy stuff there. You can also pull in extra spells through your Wandering Spirits and off the Cleric spell list through the human FCB. It's not hard to build a decent caster without having to bother with Arcane Enlightenment.
My personal preference is also to get spells from the cleric list rather than build around Arcane Enlightenment, but I can see the allure of taking it.
And yeah, while the Shaman list isn't as poor as some classes that are secondary casters and there are some great options on it, I can't really think of a class that is a primary spellcaster that has a list of this quality. I prefer the Witch spell list to this. Thankfully, as we both mentioned, there are easy ways to get some of the glaring omissions.
For an upcoming campaign, I'm interested in trying a melee build that uses Evil Eye/Chant and Battle Spirit's ability while focusing around standard action attacks (Eventually Vital Strike?) so that the Move remains available to keep debuffs up.
The issue I have with the melee builds I've seen so far is that, if they neglect the debuffing/buffing aspect of the class's Hexes, I start to wonder why you wouldn't just play something else. It's a big part of the class.
13 INT is enough to make Arcane Enlightenment work with a Belt at high levels. Until then, just drink a potion of fox's cunning when you need higher INT.
13 INT is enough to make Arcane Enlightenment work with a Belt at high levels. Until then, just drink a potion of fox's cunning when you need higher INT.
This. Provided you don't actively dump CHA and just leave it at a 10, you can easily get 3 different Arcane Spells a day with just a Headband of Mental Superiority +6 (which you can make yourself at cost with the Fetish Hex).
Spells, though they will likely need some tweaking, are done. Moving on to the spirit animal section.
To-do list:
Completed:
Spells, though they will likely need some tweaking, are done. Moving on to the spirit animal section.
You're a saint, you know that?
Spells, though they will likely need some tweaking, are done. Moving on to the spirit animal section.You're a saint, you know that?
/swoon
Are you still planning an archetypes section?
Are you still planning an archetypes section?
I am - I realize now that I must have removed it as I was copying/pasting that.
Here's the current to-do list:
To-do list:
Completed:
points of interest you are missing:
Traits, non-mod related.
I have enjoyed your guide
A good point, and one I will act on. I'm not going to go too in-depth on traits, but there are a few that are a good value for shaman.
Glad you're enjoying the guide!
Wisdom in the Flesh is the big one, though I prefer to (ab)use that with Paragon Surge (Additional Traits), then actually taking it. It's like being a mini-Possessed Archetype Oracle.
Glad to see that a Shaman guide has arrived! Now we just have Hunter and Slayer left to finish covering the ACG/ACO classes.
Any thoughts on multiclassing/prestige-classing? Or are these just a no-no for Shamans?
Glad to see that a Shaman guide has arrived! Now we just have Hunter and Slayer left to finish covering the ACG/ACO classes.
Any thoughts on multiclassing/prestige-classing? Or are these just a no-no for Shamans?
You really don't want multiclass Shaman. Even more so then normal for a full caster. A one level dip or so might be ok, but really most of the stuff the Shaman does gets better with more Shaman levels.
You really don't want multiclass Shaman. Even more so then normal for a full caster. A one level dip or so might be ok, but really most of the stuff the Shaman does gets better with more Shaman levels.Glad to see that a Shaman guide has arrived! Now we just have Hunter and Slayer left to finish covering the ACG/ACO classes.
Any thoughts on multiclassing/prestige-classing? Or are these just a no-no for Shamans?
I generally agree with Anzyr on this point. I can see a one-level dip in a martial class (honestly, probably fighter) being an option for melee shaman.
As an aside, I've had a busy end to the week and weekend, but I expect to put in some more work by mid-week.
I've completed the familiar section and will be adding the Improved Familiar section soon.
To-do list:
Completed:
I noticed you mention not having Weapon Finesse under Pterosaur familiar.
Familiars don't actually need Weapon Finesse:
Attacks: Use the master's base attack bonus, as calculated from all his classes. Use the familiar's Dexterity or Strength modifier, whichever is greater, to calculate the familiar's melee attack bonus with natural weapons. Damage equals that of a normal creature of the familiar's kind.Also, you mentioned a couple of Small familiars (Goat and Pig) as good Maulers. Because they're small sized, they don't get a Str bonus from the Mauler's ability to grow to medium. So a Compsognathus Mauler has the same Str (8+4Polymorph+2Size+1at 3rd = 15 at level 3) as a Goat (12+2Size+1at 3rd). So Goat an Pig are more useful for other familiar archetypes to get a some combat ability (or at least give some flanking bonuses.)
The Weapon Finesse part I just forgot, but I had read it before because of the whole familiar feat substitution jazz.
The polymorph size thing I just overlooked. I hate that I did that because now I have to go through everything again.
But thanks for bringing it to my attention, will fix ASAP.
Hey, I need some advice. I'm currently playing a lvl 2 human speaker for the past and I have no idea what to do with my feats. I've already grabbed spell focus and greater spell focus conj, but I have no idea what to do from lvl 3 onwards, other than divine interference at 11 and spirit talker at 7. I don't want to fight melee or ranged, and I don't have the CHA for divine protection. So, what would you recommend?
If you already have spell focus, why not augment summoning and superior summoning?
Shamans don't have Summon Monster or Summon Nature's Ally spells on their spell list.
Shamans don't have Summon Monster or Summon Nature's Ally spells on their spell list.
They can get Summon Monster on their list via either Human/Half-Elf/Half-Orc FCB or Arcane Enlightenment, and the likely intent of the one Nature Spirit Hex is to let you convert any spell spontaneously into Summon Nature's Ally.
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Shamans don't have Summon Monster or Summon Nature's Ally spells on their spell list.
Pshh, spell lists are no limit for a Shaman.