Favorite low level encounter and why?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


What are your favorite low level monsters to run, and why? Stats not needed. Sub EL 5 please! Enemies from Bestiary 1-4 only.


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I have to say my favorite low level creature is the humble leech swarm. Being consumed by a leech swarm has to be among the most horrifying ways for a person to die; the whole idea disgusts me in a good way. And then mechanically, when used in the right situation, they are a TPK waiting to happen and I like things brutal.

1. Swarm/vermin immunities, no weapon damage!
2. Blindsight so no invisible safety!
3. Blood drain!
4. Poison for dexterity DRAIN!
5. High DC as far as Distraction DCs tend to go!
6. Sky high stealth so on top of all that the party doesn't see it until it is too late!

Seriously if my level 16 caster could summon a leech swarm, he would all day every day.


chaoseffect wrote:
Seriously if my level 16 caster could summon a leech swarm, he would all day every day.

Fun fact: If your caster is a witch or a druid, he can! Well, sort of.


Kudaku wrote:
chaoseffect wrote:
Seriously if my level 16 caster could summon a leech swarm, he would all day every day.
Fun fact: If your caster is a witch or a druid, he can! Well, sort of.

I'm in the process of rerolling my Wizard into a False Priest Sorcerer to fill a divine casting gap in my group; don't worry, a scroll of that at CL 16 was one of my first buys.


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I'm fond of dark folk, with their fluff, see in darkness, and death throes.


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Pugwampi, as a DM their unluck along with others allows me to not only extend their use for players that would normally slaughter their CR but also extends the use of the monsters they are grouped with.


I love the mandragora, lots of special abilities and resistances, burrow speed, grapple, poison and a small creature with reach.


Humans... They can be builtto do anything, so the opposition (the players) don't know what to expect...


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I have a soft spot for fey. A couple favorites:

Tooth fairies. My players first encountered them when they were led by a wee tooth fairy sorceress and they were harvesting teeth from villagers. As my players fought them, my soundtrack was "Dance of the Sugar Plum Fairies." My players found the little buggers damn creepy, possibly because of the outsized pliers. The second time, my players encountered them, they went straight to fireball. I actually looked at the player and said, "You know they're not that much of a threat at your level, right?" Player: "I don't care. I'm not messing with these things."

The Skin Stealer is pretty damn creepy, too. Wait until your players find their best friends' dessicated skins in its knapsack.


I prefer humanoids or fey, specifically kobolds or mites.

Kobolds: tack on NPC levels for CR -3 instead of 2. With creative use of shenanigans like the Familiar Folio or certain feats you have a CR1 kobold "Paladin" that is Adept 2/Warrior 1 riding around on a donkey rat that assumes a medium battle form thanks to one of the guy's feats being Boon Companion. He'll never do lots of damage but you've got 2 decent monsters for the price of one out of a single CR 1 encounter.

Mites: Vermin Empathy plus Scent. These things are MASTERS of using their environment. Give them some smokesticks and fill the area with fog; they don't care since they can hop on a mount to fly plus they can follow their foes by scent. Prestidigitation to scent-mark your enemies making it even easier. Since they're only CR 1/4 you can either pair them with vermin, run a horde, or add class levels easily to add challenge and diversity to the encounter.


Mark Hoover wrote:


Mites: Vermin Empathy plus Scent. These things are MASTERS of using their environment. Give them some smokesticks and fill the area with fog; they don't care since they can hop on a mount to fly plus they can follow their foes by scent. Prestidigitation to scent-mark your enemies making it even easier. Since they're only CR 1/4 you can either pair them with vermin, run a horde, or add class levels easily to add challenge and diversity to the encounter.

I once popped a mite alchemist on a giant wasp. I introduced it to my players by playing "Ride of the Valkyries."


Panguinslayer7 wrote:
Pugwampi, as a DM their unluck along with others allows me to not only extend their use for players that would normally slaughter their CR but also extends the use of the monsters they are grouped with.

Summoning them is the main reason why I think the first world summoner might be worth anything. Just summoning them to spread about the battle field and act as conduits for an automatic AoE, no save misfortune hex.

The fact that they can do things like flank or aid other is just a bonus. Heck. the fact that they are so deliciously weak is a bonus (the best strategy to use unluck is to spread them out, which also means that the enemy has to waste time and divide their forces to chase them down. )

Mark Hoover wrote:

I prefer humanoids or fey, specifically kobolds or mites.

Kobolds: tack on NPC levels for CR -3 instead of 2. With creative use of shenanigans like the Familiar Folio or certain feats you have a CR1 kobold "Paladin" that is Adept 2/Warrior 1 riding around on a donkey rat that assumes a medium battle form thanks to one of the guy's feats being Boon Companion. He'll never do lots of damage but you've got 2 decent monsters for the price of one out of a single CR 1 encounter.

Depending on exactly how the mauler archetype works, I could get a familiar with more strength than its raging blood rager master. This depends a bit on whether you can use improved familiars for the archetypes (the mauler in particular seems to suggest improved familiars) and what exactly is the increase to strength for going small to medium.

Point is- you can get something rather beefy despite being a familiar.


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Classic Pathfinder Goblins.

...I like the songs.


Charau-ka in very large numbers. Especially if you make use of their thrown weapon mastery.


lemeres wrote:
Summoning them is the main reason why I think the first world summoner might be worth anything. Just summoning them to spread about the battle field and act as conduits for an automatic AoE, no save misfortune hex.

Why take a horrible archetype for them when you can just be a horrible person instead? Summon Evil Monster adds them to the list too, which means any Summoner I make in the future that is actually based around summoning is going to at least be kind of a dick in order to qualify.


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Yellow Musk zombies.

I love the look of surprise when they hit one and get a cloud of spores in their face!

"Yah! Weren't expecting that, were you?"

Plus they're not affected by Channel Energy or other tricks to use against undead. Keeps your players on their toes!

Dark Archive

1 1st level Orc Skald, yelling Rage

X number of 1st level Orc Warriors as per core thus lowest CR.

You can have 5 Orcs under CR 2 who will guarantee murder a low-level party.


chaoseffect wrote:
lemeres wrote:
Summoning them is the main reason why I think the first world summoner might be worth anything. Just summoning them to spread about the battle field and act as conduits for an automatic AoE, no save misfortune hex.
Why take a horrible archetype for them when you can just be a horrible person instead? Summon Evil Monster adds them to the list too, which means any Summoner I make in the future that is actually based around summoning is going to at least be kind of a dick in order to qualify.

Because it synergizes with pugwampi use to a certain extent.

The unluck aura doesn't work on animals (And gnolls, for flavor reasons). So having Summon Nature's Allies, which is full of animal summons on all levels, seems like a decent enough idea.

Plus, if you were a normal summoner, and you wanted to focus on your summon monster SLA, then your eidolon would not be a big deal anyway.

There are also arguments that you can have multiple summons and your eidolon out at the same time with first worlder. This mostly comes from the fact that it replaces the normal SLA ability rather than altering it, yet doesn't carry over the same restrictive language. So the eidolon can act as your normal wand and skill monkey just like a master summoner's would.


Bringing this back up because it's the most relevant seach result regardless of not being the newest.

Mites are a truly underappreciated enemy, capable of delivering wonderfully rich encounters. A favorite of mine is a mite confederacy consisting of two, or more, combined tribes led by a mad scientist and his cult of anthropomorphic insects.

This cult leader is a mite, Vivisectionist Alchemist 9/VMC Druid. Vivisectionist get anthropomorphic animal and awaken as extracts, and can make anthropomorphic animal permenant. They get Wild Empathy from VMC Druid, and thus qualify for Vermin Heart. Now they can use anthropomorphic animal on vermin, make it permenant, and awaken the abomination. If they happen to have Leadership, you can make these aforementioned abominations into followers. Something like a Blister Beetle or Bombadier Beetle would still have its breath weapon, even as a level 1 Commoner.

It's a low-level dungeon that is essentially a typical den of mites with double the number of enemies (two tribes instead of one). The Alchemist VMC Druid is hardly all that scary, their companion isn't fully leveled, and they have very few feats... but lots of flavor. The cohort can be built for battle, and is probably the only source of real danger. The mite chieftians and all the normal bugs aren't going to be as scary as you want them to be... so we add bug-people abominations, just for fun.


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Krenshars, goblins, lizardfolk, kobolds, undead, and bandits are some of my fav's.

In the first or second session in the last campaign that I ran, one of the PC's used Mage Hand to dump some unattended ales on some lizardfolk commoners who were hanging out in a tavern (and minding their own business), so the lizardfolk commoners left and came back with a lizardfolk bruiser and two of his thug buddies and they flipped the PC's table in the middle of their meal and started a tavern brawl. Who doesn't love a tavern brawl at level 1 ;)


Well, VM beat me to the punch with mites, and RK took my second fave kobolds. I would say outside the obvious Vermin, Animals and Undead, I have a lot of fun with the fey.

They are highly defensive and have tons of skills. They're easy to "reskin;" just take their SLA's or other magical abilities and swap them for other, similarly powerful stuff. If Sprites normally radiate light as the Light spell, how much different would they be if that was instead a radiation caused by the Create Water spell, or maybe Ghost Sound?

Plus, adding a level or 2 of an NPC or PC class level still keeps them in the "low CR" category but can really compliment their Tiny size and natural abilities. Some, like Korreds, don't really need any class levels to be interesting and flavorfull. Others, like an Atomie with a level of un-rogue or a grig Bard (Voice of the Wild)3 with a trained fox or something.

One last thing, a second for kobolds: adding NPC levels keeps their CR super low! Challenge yourself to see how much mileage you can get out of a combo of Adept and Warrior levels while the end result shakes out to CR = total Class levels -3. Adept 5/Warrior 2 for example gives you a decently armed kobold with 4 feats, a 5th level familiar to trick out, and the capability of casting Invisibility while also having mildly good Will and Fort saves, all as a CR 4 encounter. Go crazy!


I will point out that nothing about the Vivisectionist allows them, specifically, to awaken an anthropomorphic animal. That is still not allowed, because of the whole Intelligence 3 thing. But it's a plot device that is bought and paid for in the way of feats given up for VMC Druid, as well as feats invested in Leadership and Vermin Heart... and potentially Vermin Companion.

The decreased effectiveness of what our 10HD mite Vivisectionist 9 is now, in juxtapose to what he ultimately could have been, absolutely has to be accounted for in his overall CR. They are BAB+6, with 5D6 Sneak Attack... but they have only one feat available... could retrain Point Blank Shot, I guess, since they come with that from their racial hit dice. If anything, I would retrain PBS to Vermin Companion, simply for flavor and not effectiveness. He only has 3rd-level extracts, no Bombs, and a 5th-level Animal Companion.

The cohort could potentially be 7th-level... perhaps one of the bug-person abominations... and this is generally the true BBEG for my little mite dungeon. With a Leadership of ~10, our Vivisectionist has about five 1st-level followers... which are all awakened, anthropomorphic insects, probably with a level in Warrior for the BAB's. I do not ever factor in the cost of casting anthropomorphic animal, making it permenant, or casting awaken on the cohort or followers. That is all done for free in the name of awesomeness.

The two 4th-level chieftians are usually built as archers, to take advantage of the feat mites come with. It's easy enough to change, but I sort of like using them as ranged support. You can use them as minion archers, with enough accuracy to menace the party all the way until the end.


My favorite Pugwampi encounter is realistically about CR6 in the proper environment, and has exactly one Pugwampi.

This tiny Pugwampi is UnRogue 8, stacking the Carnivalist and Sylvan Trickster archetypes. Again, rule of cool, here... as both archetypes alter class skills and both alter Rogue Talents in a way. Great flavor, though, and doesn't break anything for this particular gremlin encounter. Our Pugwampi takes Improved Familiar at level 7 for a Nuglub as its Familiar, which is another gremlin, and immune to its master's Unluck Aura. Nuglubs are also bigger than Pugwampi, get a +4 racial bonus to trip things, and shares its master's Sneak Attack. Both have BAB+6, max Stealth, and the Pugwampi has a single Witch Hex (DC 14+Int)... Unluck Aura + Hex = a lot of fun... for me. Not a single Rogue Talent, though, and only 2D6 Sneak Attack.

It's actually a really great gremlin encounter.


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Haunted Church (CR6)

For a fun little sidequest, we use an Allip and a Huecuva. Visually, an Allip gives you a classic, ghost grim reaper wraith undead look... and the Huecuva gives you a zombie monk/priest to go with the whole church thing. There are two spots in the floor that collapse, leading to the basement... and there is a Bloody Skeleton in the basement, that is mysteriously adjacent to where the person falls prone regardless of which trap they fall through. Place the collapsing floor traps for maximum inconvenience to the party in combat, where they may be too distracted to notice them.

The incorporeal Allip's ability damage touch attack, and 60' fascination aura is the real fun of this encounter. Speaking of auras, the Huecuva provides Undead creatures within 30' a +2 profane bonus to Will saves against Channel Energy, and has 2 claws with filth fever. It is just the few monsters, and this should probably reduce to CR4-ish... CR5 absolute max... including the traps, as well as playing the environment and terrain of the ruined church heavily against the party.


Test the party's mettle with a swarm of leeches that can fly...

Aerial Leech Swarm

CR 5 (w/ template)
XP 1,600 (w/ template)
N Diminutive vermin 
(aquatic, swarm, air)
Init +4; 
Senses blindsight 30 ft.; darkvision 60'
Perception +0

DEFENSE
AC 18, touch 18, flat-footed 14
(+4 Dex, +4 size)
hp 39 (6d8+12)
Fort +7, Ref +6, Will +2
DR 3/-
Resist electricity 15
Immune mind-affecting effects, swarm traits, weapon damage
Weaknesses susceptible to salt (see giant leech)

OFFENSE
Speed 5 ft., swim 30 ft., fly 30' (perfect)
Melee swarm (2d6 plus poison)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 0 ft.
Special Attacks blood drain, distraction (DC 15)

STATISTICS
Str 1, Dex 18, Con 15, 
Int —, Wis 10, Cha 2
Base Atk +4; CMB —; CMD —
Skills Stealth +16
(+24 in swamps), Swim +12; 
Racial Modifiers +8 Stealth in swamps, uses Dexterity to modify Swim checks

SPECIAL ABILITIES

Blood Drain (Ex)
Any living creature that begins its turn with a leech swarm in its space is drained of its blood and takes 1d3 points of Str and Con damage.

Poison (Ex)
Swarm—injury; save Fort DC 15; frequency 1/round for 2 rounds; effect 1d4 Dexterity drain; cure 1 save.

ECOLOGY
Environment temperate or warm marshes
Organization solitary, pair, or infestation (3–6 swarms)
Treasure none

This horrifying cloud of ravenous, blood-draining parasites eschews the stealth of a lone leech’s methods in favor of swift and merciless feeding.

Aerial Creature
This template can be applied only to a non-outsider with none of the subtypes that follow: air, cold, earth, fire, or water. An aerial creature’s CR increases by 1 only if the base creature has 5 or more HD.

Rebuild Rules
• Type The creature gains the air subtype.
• Senses The creature gains darkvision 60 ft.
• Defensive Abilities The creature gains DR and resistance to electricity as noted on the table below (DR 3/-, electricity resistance 15)
• Speed The creature gains a fly speed equal to its highest speed with perfect maneuverability (maximum fly speed of 10 feet per HD)

Note: I don't even give them the 1D6 electricity damage 6HD gives their natural weapons, as I don't think swarm attacks technically qualify... but you very well could add it, if you really wanted to.


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Giant Frogs - Can jump and swim in a swamp where the party's maneuverability is seriously compromised. They have a ranged touch attack to grab their prey and can swallow small creatures whole.

For extra fun and to reduce the lethality have the frogs' tongues latch onto the characters' backpacks, shields etc and then break them away from the character to swallow whole.

Slightly higher level
Twigjacks - Splinterspray ambush and then practically free movement movement + teleport ability in dense woodland where characters' movements are constrained.

For extra fun, try and entice the party to climb into the trees before teleporting away.

Pure Evil - Ghouls hiding in a muddy pool of water.


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Mark Hoover 330 wrote:
Well, VM beat me to the punch with mites, and RK took my second fave kobolds. I would say outside the obvious Vermin, Animals and Undead, I have a lot of fun with the fey.

Wait a minute! Unless Mark Hoover and Mark Hoover 330 are different people then you beat VM by over 7 years.


TheMonocleRogue wrote:
Charau-ka in very large numbers. Especially if you make use of their thrown weapon mastery.

Thrown-Weapon Mastery (Ex), wrote:

"In addition, a charau-ka gains a +1 racial bonus on all thrown weapons, and their threat range for thrown weapons is doubled, as if the charau-ka possessed the Improved Critical feat for all thrown weapons."

It's that way on D20PFSRD, too... but WTF is that +1 racial bonus going to, exactly? All thrown weapons, yeah, I get that. But, like, all thrown weapon attacks? All thrown weapon damages? Both?

Great low-level monster, though. I'm probably going to throw some class levels on one to see what I can come up with.


Looking back at my Pugwampi Carnivalist-Sylvan Trickster notes, I see that I had added VMC Cavalier.

At level 9, so one more level than the version I posted previously in this thread (still BAB+6), Order of the Blossom has doubled our Sneak Attack from 2D6 to 4D6... which our Nuglub Familiar shares. And it looks like our Nuglub Familiar has the Prankster archetype [which stacks with Improved Familiar], giving it Improved Dirty Trick. Nuglubs already have Step Up, Toughness, and Weaon Focus (claw)... their bite attack has the grab ability, and their claws have the trip ability with a +4 racial bonus to trip on top of that.

VMC Cavalier comes with the edicts one must adhere to, and Order of the Blossom demands our Pugwampi never refuse the request of a fey... the Nuglub happens to be such a fey... and can now essentially make demands of its master. This is a dynamic I especially enjoy.

The effects of your Challenge from Order of the Blossom is the target takes a scaling penalty on saving throws against spells and spell-like abilities used by fey or by the cavalier... which is a -2 penalty at level 9. The Pugwampi's Shatter SLA will benefit from its Challenge, but its Challenge will not help its Hex. Again, though, our Nuglub Familiar is fey, so this penalty to the target's saves still applies to something like the Nuglub's Ghost Sound, Heat Metal, and possibly even its Snare SLA's.

I definitely like this level 9 version with VMC more than the level 8 one without VMC, but I think it's probably beyond the maximum challenge rating for this thread. It's hilarious, to me, that a single Pugwampi and its Nuglub Familiar provide too challenging an encounter for any discussion, though. It's not like any piece of that puzzle is especially dangerous when viewed by itself. Pugwampi aren't dangerous, Familiars are not typically dangerous, and Nuglub gremlins are not, themsleves, dangerous.


I'm amused that a 9th level NPC with Leadership and/or using Variant Multiclassing is considered "low level". No mite about it, passion (for the idea) overcame reason.


Azothath wrote:
I'm amused that a 9th level NPC with Leadership and/or using Variant Multiclassing is considered "low level". No mite about it, passion (for the idea) overcame reason.

You're not wrong, but in my defense... this IS still a low level encounter. It be but one Pugwampi and one Nuglub... it's literally just two gremlins. Regardless of the gremlins' possible levels, if you match the encounter to where the Nuglub's BAB matches that of the party's martial characters, this should still be relatively early. Anything beyond CR5 or CR6, and the party doesn't even miss a beat dealing with this "threat". It becomes trivial if you allow the number of class levels or HD to influence when you introduce this pair of gremlins.

The main enemy here is the Nuglub, a martial "bruiser", so match the encounter based on what this small weak gremlin might do. The wee Pugwampi is just there for fun. Yeah, it has a Hex, but it's still just a stupid, tiny gremlin that one might literally crush under their boot no different than the butt of a cigarette. This encounter is absolutely still designed to be a low level threat, because it is completely trivial at mid levels and beyond.


VM, you know that I love and praise your NPC builds, PC builds, and other designs, but your version of "low level" and others' doesn't seem to mix. Following strict CR rules, for example, your Huecuva encounter you say is a CR6, but closer to CR 5 or 4, including traps:

x1 Allip: CR3/800xp
x1 Huecuva: CR2/600xp
x1 Skeleton, Bloody: CR.5/200xp
x2 Collapsing Floor traps: CR1 ea/800xp

That alone works out to 2400 XP, or a CR6 encounter. Now you add in the suggestion in the CRB that creating an environment that specifically only hinders the PCs raises the CR by +1 and you're at a CR7 encounter. The OP called for "sub CR5" encounters.

Voody, per other threads your players typically have a 20 point buy or higher and also gestalt on the regular. You also allow VMC rules for building PCs in your game. If this thread's OP wants CR4 or lower encounters, they're probably looking for threats to parties APL 1-3. If you figure the CR rules are based around a 15 point buy and "modest" optimization, how well do you think THAT kind of party would fare against your ruined church?

Round 1: PCs enter an area of natural Darkness. One of the PCs has Darkvision, 2 more have Low Light vision and the arcane spellcaster of the group has a Dancing Lights they send into the middle of the church. Because of this, all 4 PCs can clearly see an old man, seemingly a priest of this faith, at prayer before the altar.

All PCs at this point have to make a DC 12 Will save to even notice that the priest isn't what he appears to be, and that's if the GM is generous. If the party moves forward to try and encounter the "priest," if they're not actively searching for traps only someone with Trapfinding will even notice the x2 collapsing floor traps in their way.

Noticing the traps requires a DC 20 Perception check, modified by distance. Failing that, any PCs (at this point they cover enough ground to affect any and all PCs moving forward) affected require a DC 15 Ref save or they take 1d6 damage, are knocked prone, are next to a bloody skeleton and alert the allip in the shadows here.

Ref saves aren't typically great for a lot of PC classes at L3. These PCs only have 2 feats, 2 traits, so based on modest optimization they may not have spent these 4 things on bolstering their Ref saves. Hitting a DC 15 may be tough for them.

Now you've got 1 or more PCs on their backs in the cellar. They will have to also immediately make a DC 15 Will save or be Fascinated by the allip. That creature can then advance on anyone Fascinated, only triggering them out of the effect when the creature attacks. That attack is a +4 Touch against a Prone foe; it is VERY likely to hit and deliver Wis damage. This in turn is going to give 5 temp HP to the INCORPOREAL foe in the PC's midst.

And don't count out the Bloody Skeleton! It's only got a +2 broken scimitar attack, but if, say, it is getting a Surprise round against a Prone foe, it might actually hit and deliver an extra 1d6 damage. Or, y'know, since we want to make this the MOST dangerous encounter, that skeleton might eschew it's scimitar and the Surprise round altogether and just deliver a full attack with x2 claws +2 to hit each.

Now, how are L3 PCs going to hit an Incorporeal creature? Well, they could toss holy water, if they remembered to bring any; they could try spell attacks which they might only have a few of at this low level; they could hope that someone in the party has a Magic weapon or their unarmed strikes are considered Magic (based on WBL of only 2k GP, this is actually not likely); they could channel 2d6 positive energy which the allip may have a +6 to save against, based on the huecuva's positioning. All of these are not great options.

At this point let's review: the PCs are divided between 2 levels of the ruined church. They may or may not have a clear path through the upper level to get to the huecuva, and dropping to the cellar quickly might cause some damage. Once in the cellar they've got a regenerating foe and an Incorporeal undead, and the party likely has weak options to attack the allip unless they KNEW ahead of time they'd be encountering this kind of undead. One or more of the PCs have already taken SOME HP damage from the fall, and may have also taken Wis damage as well as more HP damage from the bloody skeleton.

Seems pretty perilous for the heroes. If they survive, they're going to need to spend multiple healing resources to recover. As L3 PCs with only 2k GP from WBL, this single encounter will likely be ALL they can manage in a single day unless every other encounter, before and after this, are APL -1 or weaker.

I've said it before and I'll say it again VoodistMonk; I fear that which you deliver unto these builds!


Boomerang Nebula wrote:
Mark Hoover 330 wrote:
Well, VM beat me to the punch with mites, and RK took my second fave kobolds. I would say outside the obvious Vermin, Animals and Undead, I have a lot of fun with the fey.
Wait a minute! Unless Mark Hoover and Mark Hoover 330 are different people then you beat VM by over 7 years.

Holy Shnikies! I completely missed my old avatar up there! Well there you go, kobolds and mites... :)


Oh yeah, and the OP might've been in 2015 but the request was

Arturus Caeldhon wrote:
EL 5 please! Enemies from Bestiary 1-4 only.

That's kind of why I'm looking at APL3.


The Church encounter maybe slightly to high a CR but is still nicely constructed. I wouldn't add 1 to the CR for the environment, a creature is meant to be encountered in its native environment and a desecrated church is the archetypal undead territory. Maybe drop one of the collapsing floor traps and the skeleton if necessary.

Personally, I think the combination of pews to channel the PCs movement, or create difficult terrain whilst the Allip can fly over the top is great. I would have the Huecuva behind the lectern, which provides cover.

I would also only have the one collapsing floor, at the gap in front of the pews before the lectern area. This gives the Allip somewhere to retreat to if reduced to half HP. I would then add in a collapsing ceiling trap, triggered by hitting one of the pillars. Let the Allip use the pillar as cover and when hit drops a small amount of masonry that causes 1d6 damage in the target square and 1hp of 'splash' damage to the surrounding squares.

If both the Allip and Huecuva are below 1/2 HP have them retreat to the sanctuary for the final stand.


Hugo Rune: Before you throw out that CR increase suggestion, let's really think of what the PCs are walking into: natural Darkness (since all of the undead have at least Darkvision) so the PCs will have to have a light source unless ALL PCs have Darkvision. Based on proximity to that light source, approaching to monsters from stealth may be impossible.

Depending on HOW the broken pews, chunks of fallen masonry and buckled flooring conducts foes to the lectern, the PCs may have little choice but to travel through the area of the collapsing floor trap. Even if every PC on foot makes their save, they're now stuck, either from Difficult Terrain or a gaping hole in the floor that they've got to get around, moving slowly towards the huecuva.

The huecuva already has Cover and no ranged attacks of their own, so they are incentivized to wait until a PC gets within melee range to attack. If the PCs present themselves as competent ranged attackers, depending on the lectern, design of a pulpit, or other environmental debris which, again, should only benefit the undead, it is entirely reasonable that a single Move action gives this foe Improved Cover versus ranged attacks. The terrain, then, puts the huecuva at AC 19 or 23 versus ranged attacks if they can even be targeted in the first place.

The allip is incorporeal but still only has Darkvision, so it needs to be able to exit solid material objects in order to perceive the living from great distances. Even still, it can ALSO benefit from Cover or Total Cover thanks to this environment, meaning it's either completely immune from an attack in a given moment or it has effectively an 18 AC instead of its normal 14, and a +2 Ref save.

The bloody skeleton is ALWAYS, per the design of the encounter, exactly next to any square a PC is Prone in if they fail their save against the trap. This means the first attack of this undead is ALWAYS against a prone, flat-footed opponent. That positioning in the environment is a significant bonus to its meager +2 to hit on any single attack.

Are you saying that a minimum +4 to most enemy's ACs, natural Darkness that likely must be overcome by the PCs in some way (thus frustrating their opportunity for Stealth), and an opportunistic auto-bonus to the skeleton's first attack aren't worth increasing the CR by +1? PCs can't use that Cover; one of their foes is Incorporeal and the other has no ranged attacks. They have to get into melee or ready ranged attacks with a reduced chance to hit in order to combat these foes, and in order to GET to these foes their movement is slowed or perhaps even forcing them into danger while one of their foes completely ignores it.


Hi Mark Hoover 330, To answer your questions:
Q: Do I think natural darkness is ever a reason to up the CR of an encounter?
A: No, otherwise every single underground or nighttime encounter should be considered more difficult. It is up to the party to ensure that they have the required light sources. In this particular encounter, they would be able to see it is dark inside before entering and easily light a torch or lantern, cast a light spell, etc before setting foot inside the church.

Q: Do I think difficult terrain should increase the CR of an encounter? No, unless it becomes a trap in its own right (eg fighting on a narrow ledge requiring an acrobatics roll to avoid falling). Ideally, every encounter should take place in terrain and that terrain should normally benefit the native defender to a degree. My two examples in my post above have frogs in a swamp and twigjacks in a dense forest.

The way the encounter is setup, the PCs should only face one creature at a time (though the Huecuva is buffing the other two) unless they charge in. A careful party could fight the Allip at the entrance to the church, carefully advance towards the Huecuva and despatch it with many missiles and discover the collapsing floor and safely trigger it, allowing them to kill the skeleton in the cellar below. At the other extreme, two party members deal with the Allip whilst two go for the Huecuva. One of the huecuva two triggers the trap and faces the skeleton. A far more dangerous encounter, but only because of poor PC tactics.


Hugo Rune wrote:
The way the encounter is setup, the PCs should only face one creature at a time (though the Huecuva is buffing the other two) unless they charge in. A careful party could fight the Allip at the entrance to the church, carefully advance towards the Huecuva and despatch it with many missiles and discover the collapsing floor and safely trigger it, allowing them to kill the skeleton in the cellar below. At the other extreme, two party members deal with the Allip whilst two go for the Huecuva. One of the huecuva two triggers the trap and faces the skeleton. A far more dangerous encounter, but only because of poor PC tactics.

This.

The party generally only fights these critters one at a time... first the Allip, then the Huecuva, finally the skeleton. I guess I have had the Huecuva retreat into the basement with the skeleton, so they "had" to fight both of them together. I have also had the party burn down the church, and wait until high noon to enter the smoldering ruins... no more pews, no more floors to have traps in them, no more basement, no more cover... just an ash pit with some Undead in it. Like shooting fish in a barrel. So, it goes both ways.

The environment being used against the party should be guaranteed, or at least expected.


I think the large fire would attract attention.

A nasty thought I've just had: The collapsing floor is only triggered when a total mass of 300lbs is applied across the trapped area. That weight could be made of multiple characters or a PC plus the Huecuva. The collapsing floor dislodges a support beam and 2 rounds later the collapsing ceiling trap is triggered. The Allip, being incorporeal is immune. Of course, that has bumped up the CR a little but would make an interesting encounter (and demonstrates a good use of traps). In Gygaxian 1e days the treasure would be a ring of feather falling worn by the Huecuva.


Azothath wrote:
I'm amused that a 9th level NPC with Leadership and/or using Variant Multiclassing is considered "low level". No mite about it, passion (for the idea) overcame reason.

In defense of my mite confederacy encounter... it is like a mini megadungeon. Something you use to introduce a low-level party to dungeons where they don't see the sun for a few days. A party could see several new levels crawling through these stupid caves. Most of what they encounter is exactly what you would expect from any other tribe of mites, simply doubled in quantity to provide at least a moderate challenge and some random fluff in the background.

Towards the end of this miniature megadungeon you encounter less than half a dozen Warrior 1 bug-people, with maybe 4HD each. A 5HD Animal Companion. The 7th level Cohort. And finally, there's the 10HD Alchemist cult leader. If necessary to keep the CR low enough, we can essentially remove the Alchemist, himself, as a story piece. God's away on business, or whatever. Pretend the 5HD Animal Companion belongs to the 7th level Cohort. Just don't build the Cohort with a companion of their own.

I didn't have to remove anyone when I used a version of this. Pretty sure the party was about level 3 going in, and 5 coming out... I think they slept once inside the dungeon, and again right before exiting so they were all fresh up on renewable resources to protect their newly acquired mite babies. People are weird.

As for the other encounter with a 9th level NPC, its Nuglub companion is an Improved Familiar... not a Cohort. Our 10HD Pugwampi has ~50hp (which is about right for CR5), and gives our Nuglub "bruiser" about 25hp... only 6hp more than your standard CR2 Nuglub... making the Nuglub not even average health for a CR3 encounter by itself. Our big, bad "bruiser" is literally a small gremlin Familiar... not even a Mauler, but a Prankster since it works with Improved Familiar (which is how we get the Nuglub in the first place).

Being the "brains of the operation", our Pugwampi will flee for its life if the Nuglub is killed. You can be as cruel as you want when you choose its one Hex, but it's usually better to grab something that helps the pair of gremlins more than hurts the party... the Healing Hex is good and counts as CMW to keep our Nuglub fighting an extra round... Verdant Familiar can turn our Nuglub into a plant creature... Fortune lasts for two rounds, which is probably our Nuglub's entire life.

Giving class levels to a monster comes with ability score increases, and the hit dice gives two stat bumps along the way. Without gear, our Pugwampi very well could have a 16 Intelligence... so the DC of its Hex could potentially be 17+... you could use Slumber to knock the party out, and give the Nuglub any of the simple weapons with a x3 crit multiplier... but why would you do that? Seriously. Why?

I have used this particular dynamic duo in one form or another against a 4th level party. It was fun enough, but I still had to really play the environment against the party... stuff like using the Pugwampi's Unluck Aura to mess with Acrobatics checks and Reflex saves to avoid falling... both gremlins still died as expected once toe-to-toe with the party. I didn't have the Pugwampi flee, like I probably should have, but ultimately the encounter was simply more memorable than your average gremlin encounter... not more challenging. Mission accomplished.

I am well aware that giving something 9 freaking class levels hardly ever is going to produce a balanced CR5 encounter... but I am also well aware that most CR5 encounters are a freaking cake walk for a party built by people that can operate forks without going blind. I take into consideration what it is, exactly, that I actually have. I compare the abilities I actually plan on using against monster creations tables and character sheets of the party. I often dummy run playtest potential outcomes using their character sheets when I am building something unique or fun or silly to throw at them.

I didn't just randomly throw a bunch of 9th level NPC's into a low level encounter thread. These are tried and true encounters I have used for parties of less than 5th level. The VMC involved is often for flavor, and only hurts the NPC's by removing precious feats. And, I never set out to make these encounters TPK's... I just wanted something, literally anything, that would stand out from the average. I wasn't even trying to go above and beyond with creating a challenge. Just something fun for the party. Something potentially memorable.


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Mark Hoover 330 wrote:
Boomerang Nebula wrote:
Mark Hoover 330 wrote:
Well, VM beat me to the punch with mites, and RK took my second fave kobolds. I would say outside the obvious Vermin, Animals and Undead, I have a lot of fun with the fey.
Wait a minute! Unless Mark Hoover and Mark Hoover 330 are different people then you beat VM by over 7 years.
Holy Shnikies! I completely missed my old avatar up there! Well there you go, kobolds and mites... :)

It’s nice to know that despite being in a Topsy Turvey world some classic things haven’t changed.


To answer the opening post (even though it was years ago) my favourite low level monster is the hobgoblin. There are a few things like about them.

1. They are lawful evil, intelligent and more civilised than other similar races like goblins, orc, bugbears, ogres etc. From a role playing standpoint they are more likely to negotiate with PCs and honour agreements.

2. They are known to take slaves, so captured PCs are unlikely to be killed immediately. Less risk of a TPK derailing a campaign.

3. They are a good enemy for a wide variety of levels. A standard hobgoblin could be the boss in a dungeon for low level characters. Or the henchman for a more powerful monster. Or even take class levels and pose an even greater threat without it seeming odd or cheesy.

4. They are militaristic and organised and often form alliances with other races, so it makes sense for encounters with hobgoblins to vary widely. In other words it doesn’t break immersion for the threat posed by hobgoblins to scale up as campaign progresses and the PCs gain levels.

5. Their distaste for “elf magic” but tolerance for shamanistic magic makes them more nuanced and interesting than an ordinary thuggish race.


The church encounter: An allip may be a tortured soul, but they still have an Int of 11 and a desire to perpetuate despair and madness. Huecuvas are very low Int, but they need to be within 30' to buff the allip and they have the ability to appear as a living member of the faith unless someone looks closely (DC 12).

If the expectation is that the huecuva is buffing the allip or the bloody bones, or even both, that creature would need to be situated within 30' of whoever they're helping. It DOES have a Stealth +7, so it might be in hiding, but if it's actively helping another Undead it's close enough to potentially be spotted and targeted by any of the PCs.

In other words, you're not fighting one at a time unless you're not using the huecuva to buff any other undead. The PCs might only be trying to deal damage to 1 at a time, but that doesn't mean the undead have to let them do that.

Personally, I'd set up the fight like this: As the PCs enter a ruined church, they find a "priest" of that faith up near the altar, chunks of debris obscuring him a bit. At that point I'd ask the PCs if they're trying to communicate with the "priest" or moving into the church at all. The only clear path on the battle map that would get the PCs closer to the huecuva would have debris and broken furnishings funneling them through a 15' radius area (the collapsing floor trap is within this area).

At any point, if the players are speaking in character with the "priest" or they're otherwise trying to interact with him, they get a DC 12 Will save to see through his disguise. If the PCs stop before the trap area, attempting to fight the huecuva from range, he dives behind the altar using it as Improved Cover and the allip appears, attempting to Fascinate.

If the PCs move forward, either not seeing through the creature's disguise or trying to melee with this foe, the path of least resistance carries them through the trap area. Any PCs moving forward then may trip the trap and end up dealing with the bloody skeleton. The trap is a signal for the allip to descend through the fallen rubble to deliver Touch attacks to the prone PC and the huecuva uses a hole in the floor behind the altar to descend into the cellar (using Stealth if possible) in order to buff both allies.

If the party doesn't trigger the trap, draws out the allip, and multiple PCs are able to resist the Fascinate and gang up on the creature, the ignored huecuva will dive behind the altar, then use Stealth to move slowly around the side of the fight through Difficult Terrain, constantly buffing the allip until he can leap out and attack a PC flat footed potentially.

Lastly, in a rare situation, if the allip can Fascinate a PC close to the trap area and the huecuva has the opportunity, he may try to Bull Rush a PC into the trap. Also, Undead can use any Simple weapons; depending on the optimization level of the PCs, the huecuva might have a light crossbow or a sling.

Bottom line, as a GM I'd be doing everything in my power to have the monsters attack at once. Why? Because this is ONE encounter. If instead I wanted it to be 2 or 3 SEPARATE encounters, I'd run it like this:

1. PCs enter the church, see the huecuva. Regardless of their interaction, he would immediately flee behind the altar

2. The party stalks deeper into the church and may or may not find/avoid/remove the trap. Either they fall through the floor or they get to the altar and find a steep flight of steps down

3. In the cellar is the bloody skeleton, currently either in Improved Cover using Stealth (DC 12, modified by distance) or appearing right next to any Prone victim. Battle ensues and the PCs will have to figure out how they'll deal with its Fast Healing and Deathless qualities, if at all

4. From here, they hear what sounds like chanting echoing from another area of the cellar. Once the party gets to within 60' of the allip start in with the Will saves. The allip will melt out of solid debris in the area, touch attack, then reposition itself by re-entering the solid objects for 1 round. Rinse and repeat until the creature is defeated

5. During all of this time, the huecuva has geared itself up with some kind of ranged attack. Once the allip has fallen, the huecuva returns to the party's midst, leading in with one attack using this ranged attack, hopefully from a Surprise round. The creature tries to remain adjacent to anything that ensures he has Cover & he fights to the death

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