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So accordind to the item creations rules, it seems that my over 3 necromancer can craft a wonderous item that casts Cure Light Wounds all day for 2000gp (spell level 1 * caster level 1 * 2000). The party bard is assisting the crafting by casting the spell. This feels cheap somehow, but is it legal? The gm will allow it if rules support it.
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Questions like this come up often (I'll link a couple in a second).
What you have to keep in mind when crafting items is that it's half art, half science.
There are a number of cheap, overpowered combinations that are mathematically possible, given a purely "rules as read" stance.
What you have to then do is compare your crafted item to similarly functioning items and their prices.
For example, you could craft a CL 3 ring that gives you Invisibility at will, and it would be priced less than 20k.
But a Ring of Invisibility, which does the same thing, is 20k.
So you'd be encouraged to adjust your price up.
You should talk over item creation with your GM and determine fair prices for your curative items.
Not a mathematically possible price.
Edit: HERE is an excellent breakdown of item crafting costs. As you'll note in the thread, there are other examples of items that come out cheap when using just math, compared to versions that exist in print.
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People had a cure cantrip back in 3.5 and noone seemed to complain about that. In PF, people are going to be healed with any downtime at all anyway. They just find a way. You can either let it happen easy, or you can make them burn gold and wait even longer to get what they actually want.
Your DM said he'd allow it if the rules did. The rules do. If he has a problem with it later and says he's taking it away, the rules allow that too. Usually the overpowered item creation is for much worse things than CLW. You should be fine.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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So accordind to the item creations rules, it seems that my over 3 necromancer can craft a wonderous item that casts Cure Light Wounds all day for 2000gp (spell level 1 * caster level 1 * 2000). The party bard is assisting the crafting by casting the spell. This feels cheap somehow, but is it legal? The gm will allow it if rules support it.
You jumped to the chart didn't you?
You skipped step 1:
Similar items
And skipped step 2:
Items of similar power
An unlimited CLW is similar in power to an artifact or at least more expensive than the Ring of Regeneration.
You also forgot that Use-Activated or Continuous = Spell level x Caster level x 2000 gp (Note 2)
Note 2 = If a continuous item has an effect based on a spell with a duration measured in rounds, multiply the cost by 4. If the duration of the spell is 1 minute/level, multiply the cost by 2, and if the duration is 10 minutes/level, multiply the cost by 1.5. If the spell has a 24- hour duration or greater, divide the cost in half.
Also: Items that use spell effects, based on spell, are also required to be Use-Activated, if you look at similar items item in the book. This would usually add the requirement = Charges per Day
Charges per day = Divide by ( 5 divided by charges per day ).
......................
Lastly: All magic items have one more Requirement = Dungeon Master Approval.
They can refuse the item creation, allow its creation, add/subtract stuff to how it works, change it after the fact, and even remove it from game after the fact.
Do you mean an item that can cast cure light wounds at will with a standard action (akin to a wand but with unlimited charges), or an item that will continually cast cure light wounds on the target with no action needed (akin to fast healing 1d8+1)?
If it's the former I'd price it fairly low (>10k), if it's the latter I'd price it very high indeed.
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Ok, let me try to respond to everything by supplying more details:
The item we made is a pair of gloves that can cast cure light wounds at will as a standard action (it's a touch spell after all). We have, nor need, no dedicated healer in the party. Later, I intend to make an opposite glove that casts inflict light wounds- for the undead of course.
The only similar item I found was the Gloves of Bony Power. from the Armory of Nethys.
Also, I very carefully considered the rules of the chart as far as CL (we chose 1, because you can set the CL as low as you like) and spell level (also 1). "Use-activated or continuous" items cost Spell level x caster level x 2,000, ergo 2000gp in total. Giving it "charges per day" reduces the cost (and effectiveness), but the party can easily pony up the cash for the downtime healing.
I have missed no detail so minor as "forgetting a step" or consulting GM approval, merely given the above facts both he and I are on the fence about this. I have read all posts I could find related to the topic prior to posting.
Thanks for the feedback so far!
I would be fine with such an item in my game, and I came up with the following formula in the last such thread:
I'd price such an item at least 3750g, which is the cost of five wands of Cure Light Wound (if created as a slotless/non handheld item, the price would double of course). I'd also require it to be worn (if slotted) for 24 hours before it could be activated.
Requiring a standard action and limiting it to 1d8+1 would make it unlikely to be used in combat, and between fights I prefer my players to heal up. If HP were meant to be a per day resource, you would heal fully with 8hrs of rest.
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If the DM is still on the fence about this then change it from "at-will" to "5/day". The price remains the same, you'll probably get about the same utility, and you can use a happy stick to top off when the gloves of good touch run dry.
This line shows there may be an issue with pricing, if 5x/day equals unlimited. There is a huge difference to 5d8+5 over 5 rounds and however much you want. At around 10th level in PFS, we were blowing through one to two wands per session at least. 3600 is not a good price and doesn't fit for similar function items, namely a 1st level spell being used an unlimited number of times. As another stated, ring of invisibility seems the best equivalent, as it is a first level spell cast at will
Magic Item Gold Piece ValuesMany factors must be considered when determining the price of new magic items. The easiest way to come up with a price is to compare the new item to an item that is already priced, using that price as a guide. Otherwise, use the guidelines summarized on Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values.
Guidelines used to estimate prices if there is nothing similar. "Guide" is also the key wording. You GM should be involved in the entire process of item creation and they are the final arbiter of price and function. If a GM is new, they should have players use only stock items until they get the hang of the flow of the game and how good equipment can effect encounter outcome.
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This guys DM is already confirmed to be okay with this as long as the rules say it's okay. The rules say "Whatever the DM says goes". There is nothing else to say until the DM has seen it in action and (potentially) has a problem with it.
Ok, let me try to respond to everything by supplying more details:
Thanks for the update!
The way I see it there are two different levels of consideration needed for your item.
On the micro-level, you should consider how this item will affect the party. In this case, it is simply a convenient alternative - they pick up this item instead of buying wands of Cure Light Wounds or forcing some poor guy to play "the healer". IE for your party this item has a value somewhere between the price of three and twelve wands depending on the length of the campaign, the speed of leveling, and how many encounters you expect to go through. Based on this logic, I'd price it anywhere between 2250 (three wands) and 9000 (twelve wands). Putting a very high price on it (someone mentioned the ring of regeneration, which is monstrously overpriced at 90k) simply means it's one more item the party won't bother buying.
On a macro-level, you should consider how this item will affect everything outside the party, aka the campaign world you are playing in. If it's relatively inexpensive (under 10k) and provides literally unlimited HP healing, a logical assumption would be that it will dramatically alter military warfare and healthcare. For example, there would be little need for military field hospitals. Instead you would have a team of medical personnel doing combat triage to differentiate between dead, severely injured (ie dying) and merely wounded men, and a few guys constantly healing the casualties as directed using the gloves/ring/staff of unlimited healing. The constant replenishment of wounded personnel would in turn affect combat tactics, changing the focus from primarily wounding and driving off the opponent to brutally killing off as many troops as possible to ensure they are not immediately healed up again. Based on this logic, I'd either price the item high enough that it wouldn't be readily affordable for towns and cities (30k+) or (more likely) place some kind of limitation on the item to limit its utility on a large scale. One example is that it works akin to the Dungeon Ring, and only works when used on a target with an attuned item of negligible cost for an adventurer, but significant cost for a commoner.
Example:
Ring of Harmony
Aura: Faint Conjuration; CL: 1st
Slot: Ring; Price 6, 000 GP (Harmony Ring), 100 gp (Attunement Ring); Weight -
A ring of harmony is made out of platinum, set with a square-cut spinel. This ring is magically attuned to one or more attunement rings at creation. A ring of Harmony allows the wearer to cast Cure Light Wounds at will, but only on himself or a target wearing an attunement ring tuned to the wearer's ring of harmony. A ring of harmony or attunement ring must be worn for a full week before it begins to work.
The language is rough, but you get the general idea. I added an additional downside in that everyone in the party are sacrificing a ring slot to gain unlimited healing. This is a great bargain at low levels (where magical rings are rare and healing is expensive) but will become less and less attractive as the party reaches the mid-high levels where healing wands are dirt cheap but magic ring slots are precious. Feel free to alter the price and attunement period to whatever seems appropriate for your group. :)
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So accordind to the item creations rules, it seems that my over 3 necromancer can craft a wonderous item that casts Cure Light Wounds all day for 2000gp (spell level 1 * caster level 1 * 2000). The party bard is assisting the crafting by casting the spell. This feels cheap somehow, but is it legal? The gm will allow it if rules support it.
1) Generally items that cast instantaneous spells have a number of daily uses, not a unlimited number of uses.
2) unless it use a body slots there is a x2 multiplier
3 and most important) Always compare what you are crafting to an existing item before using the table.
4) It should be a command word item, not a use activated, so the base is 1,800, not 2,000.
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Existing cure X item:
Strand of Prayer Beads
Bead of healing Wearer can cast his choice of cure serious wounds, remove blindness/deafness, or remove disease.
Each special bead can be used once per day,
bead of healing –9,000 gp
CL: 5th (healing),
Reverse engineering of the price:
1 day use converted to 5 daily uses = x5 = 45,000
no body slot used converted to slot use = /2 = 22,500
3rd level spell, CL 5 =3*5 = 15 (you can cast only 1 of the 3 possible spells in a day)
22.500/15 = 1,500
It seem they are giving it the discount for "several similar abilities".
So, to remove the discount: 1,500/75*100=2,000
Personally I will not give the "several similar abilities" to a item like the Prayers beads, but I would consider it a command word item. The difference is relatively small.
So your item pricing:
5 daily use CLW item with a CL of 1
2,000 *1 * 1* 2 (no body slot) = 4,000 (2,000 to make it)
(later Edit: I hadn't read all the thread when I did make the post, your item use a body slot, hands, so it don't get the multipler. On the other hand, hands items use both hands, even if they are 1 single glove)
Depending on the campaign, it can be worth it, or not.
A CLW wand price is only 750 gp, crafting it is only 375 gp and it has 50 charges.
But it require a UMD check to use it if you don't have CLW in your class spell list.
The item cost a bit less than 5 CLW wands, so your campaign will last long enough that you will use it more than 250 times?
The added benefits for your necromancer to be able to use CLW without a UMD check is worth it?
I had already examined the possibility to make a similar item for my magus, probably it is not worth it money wise, but even with maximized UMD it is not guaranteed that I can make the UMD check.
A way to reduce the cost is to make it a wearable item (like a bracelet or some such, depending on what is your class).
A price of 2,000 gp and a production cost of 1,000 make it more interesting.
As I said above, I will make it a command word items, so 1,800/900 is mi final price.
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Edit:
The usual citation:
Pricing New Items
The correct way to price an item is by comparing its abilities to similar items (see Magic Item Gold Piece Values), and only if there are no similar items should you use the pricing formulas to determine an approximate price for the item. If you discover a loophole that allows an item to have an ability for a much lower price than is given for a comparable item in the Core Rulebook, the GM should require using the price of the Core Rulebook item, as that is the standard cost for such an effect. Most of these loopholes stem from trying to get unlimited uses per day of a spell effect from "command word" or "use-activated or continuous" descriptions.
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Boots of the earth:
I think they are a badly thought item.
Fast healing 1 when standing still for 5,000 gp is too good.
Especially as there is no requirement to touch earth/rock at all.
You are on the 3 level of a tower, on a wooden floor? They work.
So that "of the earth" si a misnomer.
The only question is if that "move action to plant your feet" should be repeated every round. But that is irrelevant for out of combat healing and would be a big hindrance for in combat use. Trying that to reduce their benefits would only make them even more of a "out of combat" healing item.
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There was a belt is 3.5 that had a cure wounds effect. It was in the Magic Items Compendium and if I remember right to cost 500 gp.
It had 3 charges daily and each charge could cure 1d8+5 (I think +5).
You could use up to all 3 charges as one standard action.
We always gave these out for free so no one had to play a healbot.
Actually if you and your GM are thinking about allowing this I suggest that your GM read this post:
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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This guys DM is already confirmed to be okay with this as long as the rules say it's okay. The rules say "Whatever the DM says goes".
The GM is free to allow the item, but you will never see any item like this printed. The boots of Fast Healing 1 is the closest to this item you will ever see made by Paizo.
WotC made a Belt of Healing in the MIC that was 750 gp and had 4d8 once a day or 6d8 if you used 3 standard actions. So a max of 6d8 healing a day for 750 gp.
Out of combat healing that isn't a wand is strongly discouraged. It breaks all kinds of parts of the game. It allows parties to not need a Cleric/Druid/Bard to use the Wands. An At Will item of healing isn't something I would ever allow in any game I ever played or GM.
I've played with at will healing items in a game before.
It was a crazy min maxed 19th level game where we fought gods, and my character had a vest of heal that cost nearly 200,000 gold from what I remember. So each round I could heal myself as a standard action for 110 hit points. Of course, my character had over 600 hp and would regularly take 200-300 points of damage a round. Combat was a complete game of rocket tag, and basically we would rush in and 1 round everything, or (most of us) die. We were subsequently resurrected because we had staves of wish and other such shenanigans too.
I guess my point is that trivializing health restoration with a continuous use item isn't something that should be introduced into the game in my opinion. A wand of cure light wounds or the boots of the earth are enough as is. Anything more powerful than the boots of the earth would just get out of control too quickly.
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This guys DM is already confirmed to be okay with this as long as the rules say it's okay. The rules say "Whatever the DM says goes".The GM is free to allow the item, but you will never see any item like this printed. The boots of Fast Healing 1 is the closest to this item you will ever see made by Paizo.
WotC made a Belt of Healing in the MIC that was 750 gp and had 4d8 once a day or 6d8 if you used 3 standard actions. So a max of 6d8 healing a day for 750 gp.
Out of combat healing that isn't a wand is strongly discouraged. It breaks all kinds of parts of the game. It allows parties to not need a Cleric/Druid/Bard to use the Wands. An At Will item of healing isn't something I would ever allow in any game I ever played or GM.
Or wizard/sorcerer et c. with infernal healing if we go beyond the CRB.
Or a witch."Playing a healbot" don't exist in Pathfinder unless someone want to play it.
Healing is part of the resource management, and that is part of playing the game. Remove the need to use resources to heal and you change some of the basis of the game.
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I think it is important to point out that those gloves have a line "first aid gloves becomes nonmagical" at the end. 4,500 gp for an item that can cure but when used up it turns into a normal glove.
The design of the game is for healing to require a healer, require a wand with a caster with that spell (or UMD), or require potions (or other expendable items) but never unlimited use at will items.
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Having played in games where the party is willing to spend whatever it takes to have enough wands of cure light wounds to always get back to full health after a battle without expending valuable daily resources, I don't think an unlimited healing item would make all that much difference. It's the same as that, only with more up-front cost and less expenditure over the long run.
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cure light takes 1 standard action, which as a DM I would rule so similar to a round that this line should be considered.
You realize almost every single spell is cast as a standard action? If you have a problem with abundant healing, just say it.
^ That.
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For people who do think that it will be a bad thing, I'd like to ask have you ever tried it?
I'll admit I really don't like two things:
Unlimited free healingA player that went supernova then says "I'm done for the day lets rest"
I've never tried unlimited free healing, but I always heal up to full with wands after every fight. Provided the group has someone who can use a wand. If I'm in a group with no one that wand us, I'll play the someone who can wand us. It is part of the game. You might as well play a group of six fighters.
It isn't my fault if I'm playing and some other player goes nova and wants to stop. He gets to be less effective while the rest of us continue the day.
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It isn't my fault if I'm playing and some other player goes nova and wants to stop. He gets to be less effective while the rest of us continue the day.
I see this kind of thing a lot in topics discussing the '15-minute work day'.
Do you actually press on and threaten TPKing because your friend is out of spells? Why would you do that, IC? And if you can complete the challenges of the day ahead of you with a spell-less wizard, I seriously doubt it was even close to a real challenge for your group.
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I've been burned before by custom magical items to the point where I don't allow them outside of the "pay 50% more to fuse a new item to an old one" rule. If your DM does allow them, then he needs to be VERY careful.
As far as OOC healing goes, I think there are enough alternatives between Boots and the Earth and Wands of IF and CLW that there isn't really a need for an infinite CLW item. Furthermore, it seems like there is an unspoken Paizo "no infinite cure spells" rule in place because in the tons of splat books I've skimmed I haven't seen one item that lets players cast any cure spell at will. It's a pretty obvious magical item idea so if Paizo doesn't want to touch it, thats a good enough excuse for me not to want to touch it either.
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It isn't my fault if I'm playing and some other player goes nova and wants to stop. He gets to be less effective while the rest of us continue the day.I see this kind of thing a lot in topics discussing the '15-minute work day'.
Do you actually press on and threaten TPKing because your friend is out of spells? Why would you do that, IC? And if you can complete the challenges of the day ahead of you with a spell-less wizard, I seriously doubt it was even close to a real challenge for your group.
In character, because you're on a timetable and you don't have the option to stop again. Out of character, because the DM is glaring at the wizard for being an idiot. Part of playing a wizard is about managing your spells; if a wizard novas like a star and clicks dry in the first or second encounter of the adventure then they needs to be held accountable for their actions. Put another way, 15 minute adventuring days invalidate the only real restriction on an already broken class, making it even more broken.
All of which are fine and excellent judgement calls for a personal table (and, in fact, are important judgement calls for each table to make), but aren't the true RAW (which is "it is according to GM fiat whether or not you are permitted to make it; here are the general suggestions that you should probably follow more or less").
Although it's already been said, I feel it bears repeating (because I'm talky and pompous)...
Reference the similarity between cure light wounds command word at will and a ring of regeneration: these are not even close to similar, considering one requires a standard-action and "strong voice" (generally blowing quiet-based stealth checks), while the latter is quiet, and requires no action or concentration in the slightest. Heck, even a constant cure light wounds would not be too similar - the cure doesn't allow the regeneration of lost body parts (although a constant cure light wounds would be seriously annoying to have to constantly roll for, if your group was going for that amount of literalness).
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It isn't my fault if I'm playing and some other player goes nova and wants to stop. He gets to be less effective while the rest of us continue the day.I see this kind of thing a lot in topics discussing the '15-minute work day'.
Do you actually press on and threaten TPKing because your friend is out of spells? Why would you do that, IC? And if you can complete the challenges of the day ahead of you with a spell-less wizard, I seriously doubt it was even close to a real challenge for your group.
Yeah, this kind of reckless thinking always bothers me. It's annoying because it reinforces the idea that a player should be punished, and most of the time it's nearly suicidal. This goes into the 'classes that can go all day aren't good' since almost everyone works on limited resources, but that's not the topic. I can't imagine EVERY adventure is done on the harshest time table.
An item like this isn't really that bad as long as it's use activated, so it gets used for a pit stop. To me, it's going to be one of a few things going on here:
1. The players get it, and the cleric/oracle/etc isn't using resources to heal, so they have more fun.
or
2. They don't get it, cleric/oracle/etc is using resources to heal, has less fun.
Really, it's just saving resources on wands of CLW, so if that's the case, just drop their treasure a little to make up for the scratch they'd be spending on them.
This 'we need a healer' mentality isn't good for the game, mostly because forcing roles isn't good for the game. It's why trying to protect the rogue because 'we HAVE to have someone to deal with traps' doesn't really work.
Out of battle healing should just be routine, dealt with by this kind of thing. If you want healing to really matter, there should be more viable in battle healing aside from the Heal spell. Healing in combat doesn't feel good, and to me, that's a problem.
But this? This item is fine, lowers bookkeeping on CLW charges and such. It's as slow as a wand of CLW, so if you still want to ambush the party while they're licking their wounds, go for it.
I would like to add that I think it's important to avoid both unlimited free* healing and the 15 minute work day. To that end I don't make healing items scarce. There are always potions and wands of CLW aplenty. But those items have intended downsides. You need a caster with the spell on their list, or you need UMD. Or the potions are more expensive and still require actions mid game.
I feel the ring of regeneraiton proves a point, that at least somewhere along the line people considered how balanced unlimited health gain was and said...you know what, that should probably be very expensive. And I agree with them. I don't care for the boots of the earth because they have much of the same power, with little of the cost. Of course the ring does have benefits such as not being actually killed even when sent to the negatives because you have regeneration and being able to regenerate limbs and not being frozen in place (compared to the boots).
If you want out of combat unlimited healing let your players use the boots, that should be good enough on its own.
*Free after initial purchase
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Having played in games where the party is willing to spend whatever it takes to have enough wands of cure light wounds to always get back to full health after a battle without expending valuable daily resources, I don't think an unlimited healing item would make all that much difference.
Note that this isn't necessarily true at a psychological level. The difference with unlimited healing is that players may no longer care to minimize damage in situations that don't look life-threatening. "Let's just jump down the cliff and heal ourselves afterwards. It'll probably be quicker than walking down the winding path."
Good role-playing can prevent this, since real people wouldn't normally want to do that.
(And yes, I am taking both sides of the argument. "Consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.")
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Reference the similarity between cure light wounds command word at will and a ring of regeneration: these are not even close to similar, considering one requires a standard-action and "strong voice" (generally blowing quiet-based stealth checks), while the latter is quiet, and requires no action or concentration in the slightest. Heck, even a constant cure light wounds would not be too similar - the cure doesn't allow the regeneration of lost body parts (although a constant cure light wounds would be seriously annoying to have to constantly roll for, if your group was going for that amount of literalness).
Your right, the CLW is actually substantially better because it is actually useful in combat at low levels (Fast Healing 1 in combat is a joke, especially if you can afford a ring of regeneration). Also, some quick back of the envelope math shows that I can make an item that does Breath of Life at will for 81,000 gp, 9,000 less then a ring of regeneration. (Un)fortunately, I'm pretty sure that you can't make a continuous item from spells with a duration of instant (so no continuous CLW or BoL), but if you could said item would be 90,000 gp and about 31.5 times better then a Ring of Regeneration, with the added bonus of making you basically unkillable without massive damage.
Ring of Regeneration is slower, but it requires no action to use, automatically stops bleed damage, and allows you to replace the missing body parts of whoever you put it on. Even allowing for this, it's ridiculously expensive and I've never heard of anyone buying it.