Legolas eat yer heart out! Lars is THE MAN!
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That was really neat.
Puts the abilities of high level archer characters into perspective. I still have trouble visualizing Pistol Gunslingers with their free action reloads though. (I usually flavor it away by saying high level slingers have developed more modern loading methods that only they can operate.)
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Uh, I hate to break it to you--that should be stuff low level archers should be able to do. As he explained, the old text books suggest what he does is the baseline. He rediscovered ancient techniques, but everyone used to do these. Just about any low level fighting type dedicated to archery should be able to do that sort of stuff, and hey, they kind of can with Rapid Shot and, later, Manyshot.
High level stuff, though, blows real humans out of the water. Numbers were run long ago that show, by 3rd edition standards, the best human being to ever live on Earth is 6th level, so, high level characters should be punching out concepts, cutting rivers in half, and throwing mountains at each other (sigh), not just doing what regular people can do.
But but....no I got nothing martials need cool high level abilities.
Old records were prone to a little exaggeration, especially when it came to military prowess.
It also said it took him years of training and research to do what he does. Which to me speaks of being high level or at the very least mid level.On a side note, I think 6th level is a bit low for the greatest human to ever live. Cutting rivers in half etc sound more like a Mythic character than simply high level.
A fifth level wizard can fly. Fifth.
Raistlin, Gandalf, and Merlin never flew.
Sixth sounds about right for "total expert"
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Numbers were run long ago that show, by 3rd edition standards, the best human being to ever live on Earth is 6th level
I don't want to derail this thread so I'll just point out that many people (myself included) think that there are many flaws in the argunent that led to that conclusion.
As far as real life is concerned, everything he was doing was very impressive.
In pathfinder? You can do all this by 2nd level.
Show me the build that at 2nd level can do that then.As far as real life is concerned, everything he was doing was very impressive.
In pathfinder? You can do all this by 2nd level.
Do what exactly? Be accurate with your shots and move? A fine target (like a soda cap, or a head of an arrow) with a dex mod of 0 would have an AC of 18. an immobile one has an AC of 13. It's not hard for a second level to hit a target like this.
Him catching an arrow and shooting it back would suggest imp unarmed strike, deflect arrows, and snatch arrows. I doubt he can do this all the time though and would mean he can catch bullets mid air if he had the feat.
Rapid shot as well.
Anything I'm missing?
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Do what exactly? Be accurate with your shots and move? A fine target (like a soda cap) with a dex mod of 0 would have an AC of 18. an immoble one has an AC of 13. It's not hard for a second level to hit a target like this.
Him catching an arrow and shooting it back would suggest imp unarmed strike, deflect arrows, and snatch arrows. I doubt he can do this all the time though and would mean he can catch bullets mid air if he had the feat.
Rapid shot as well.
Anything I'm missing?
See, what I asked was 'show me the build'. What you did was talk about a few feats. As for accuracy, there was shooting an arrow out of the air, which presumably has higher than 18 AC. And 2nd level with a full BAB class with 18 dex is +6 before rapid shot, which means an average of 12 on roll, which while not super difficult is still harder than average, meaning using rapid shot pushes that to 14 (which he's obviously using), which IS difficult.
Not to mention the rate at which 3 arrows were fired, which is something no 2nd level character can do. To get to ten we're at one hell of a build already, most likely some kind of Zen Archer monster.
Note that he also by PF rules didn't have a hand free to use Snatch Arrows, also noting that he'd normally have to throw the arrow back instead of firing it from his bow.
Not to mention the again laughable point of moving and firing more than one arrow (gotta love PF mobility), and there's no way he could do this all at 2nd level. Even IUS/D. Arrow/S. Arrow would require almost every feat he could get.
This isn't a second level build unless you're gestalting like 8 classes that get bonus feats.
Do what exactly? Be accurate with your shots and move? A fine target (like a soda cap) with a dex mod of 0 would have an AC of 18. an immoble one has an AC of 13. It's not hard for a second level to hit a target like this.
Him catching an arrow and shooting it back would suggest imp unarmed strike, deflect arrows, and snatch arrows. I doubt he can do this all the time though and would mean he can catch bullets mid air if he had the feat.
Rapid shot as well.
Anything I'm missing?
See, what I asked was 'show me the build'. What you did was talk about a few feats. As for accuracy, there was shooting an arrow out of the air, which presumably has higher than 18 AC. And 2nd level with a full BAB class with 18 dex is +6 before rapid shot, which means an average of 12 on roll, which while not super difficult is still harder than average, meaning using rapid shot pushes that to 14 (which he's obviously using), which IS difficult.
Not to mention the rate at which 3 arrows were fired, which is something no 2nd level character can do. To get to ten we're at one hell of a build already, most likely some kind of Zen Archer monster.
Note that he also by PF rules didn't have a hand free to use Snatch Arrows, also noting that he'd normally have to throw the arrow back instead of firing it from his bow.
Not to mention the again laughable point of moving and firing more than one arrow (gotta love PF mobility), and there's no way he could do this all at 2nd level. Even IUS/D. Arrow/S. Arrow would require almost every feat he could get.
This isn't a second level build unless you're gestalting like 8 classes that get bonus feats.
Shooting an arrow head mid flight (which is just a moving air born target, which you can ready an action to shoot if your GM allows it) would just be a fine target without dex mod. Why is it higher than AC 18?
You can just not hold on to your bow with 2 hands at the end of your round. When you catch the arrow, just use it next round.
If you want to move and shoot 2 arrows, just take a 5 foot step and rapid shot at the start of your next round after moving in your previous.
As for the 3 arrows in one round, so? The game isn't trying to be realistic with firing rate. The fact that you can fire a semiautomatic firearm only 3 times in a round (semiautomatic quality + rapid shot) and a musket once a round at level 1 is proof. This isn't something the game does.
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Pathfinder is a game. Some things, like attacks per round, are just arbitrary numbers assigned for game balance, not because that's how it functions in reality. This guy is amazing. In pathfinder terms, a 6th level character can do most of that. Some things just aren't supported in the rules, like there's no ranged parry feat or ability or any move and full attack with bow ability, but again, it's just a game, not a reality simulator.
Actually, shooting an arrow out of the air is a special ability of the toxophilite Ranger archetype.
This guy is awesome, I now want to see how many arrows he can put into robes and wizard hat before he gets his spells off lol.
As to this not exactly following RAW or being high level or low level or whatever. Stop thinking about the game as RAW and think about it more as concepts you and the DM can make or do by talking about it. You may notice that pathfinder becomes really fun when people allow for more creativity without redistricting it to RAW and instead think of the rules as guidelines. You just need to have the DM adjudicate actions that are not in the rules or such that the game makes sense when the rules do not.
Example: suppose A player wanted to do some of things Lars did, like say run while firing his weapon. He may not have Shot on the Run but he still thinks that at 6th level he should be able to do it anyway without dumping 3 feats to get it and the DM agrees. The DM says he can do it but he will take a -4 for each shot fired this way and he cant use Rapid shot or many shot. The player agrees and he can now run, while firing off a number of shots given by his base attack at -4. The DM writes down what they decided and in the future he or somebody else can do this but at -4.
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Numbers were run long ago that show, by 3rd edition standards, the best human being to ever live on Earth is 6th levelI don't want to derail this thread so I'll just point out that many people (myself included) think that there are many flaws in the argunent that led to that conclusion.
Indeed. I have no idea what argument/thread this info is in reference to, but it intrigues me at least.
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Keep in mind Lars is not using a longbow in classic format. Longbows were invented to keep up with armor advances.
Yes, he can punch through chain mail and the leather under it. He's using an arrow. Arrows have been able to do that since BC. Chain mail has holes, and anything with holes doesn't work well against piercing attacks.
He's using a short bow, drawn to the chest. Yes, this will kill a human in light or no armor...arrows can do that. Against scale, plate armor, and against shields, his arrows are basically useless.
In short, he effectively has no strength bonus to damage because he's not taking a full draw, and has much lower range since he's not using a long bow properly.
His short range technique is awesome, and he's clearly put a LOT of practice into this. I'm not sure of his levels, but he's definitely got some feats in there.
I'd like to know how he does as a competition shooter.
But against heavily and thickly armored opponents, he's basically firing sticks. There's a REASON longbows can drive through 4 inches of oak...they had to, to kill knights in their damn plate armor.
==Aelryinth
THe strength bonus you get from using longbows is a considerable bonus to an archer's damage. You can sort of compensate for it with Deadly Aim and enough magic, but still.
Not having that extra bonus damage makes a big damage in damage over time.
Look at some of the bows he's using. They are barely 3 feet long. Classic no-str short bows all the way. Yes, he can get a lot of arrows into the air. In reality, he'd have a TH penalty, too, since he doesn't have the armor punch of a longbow...but we'll just ignore that.
Note that just using hand-holding on a classic longbow also would accelerate the rate of fire. just take some practice. You couldn't snap shoot quite like a short bow, but you'd still get more arrows off.
==Aelryinth
I would also like to point out a historical fact with Saracen archers and the like. They are based around knights and armor around the time of the Crusades.
The Saracens are a euphemism for Muslims during the middle ages. Muslims typical came from hotter countries wear people wore light armor because, well, it was damn uncomfortable. When you're wearing leather and silks, short bows are all you need to be effective.
There are multiple battle records during the crusades of knights being shot with literally dozens of arrows by Muslim archers, and continuing to fight because those arrows couldn't actually penetrate their armor. A small force of knights Templar could easily route a much larger force of Muslims because they were trained to fight and kill in heavy armor, and did so even in the heat of the Holy Lands.
So, speed shooting with a short bow is extremely impressive in its own environment. Add Heavy Armor to the mix and its just throwing sticks into the air, and that speed shooting archer better find a longbowman to hide behind who can actually punch an arrow through a breastplate.
===Aelryinth