The Unofficial Top 32 Guildhall and Armory


RPG Superstar™ General Discussion

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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 , Marathon Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Dedicated Voter Season 8

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Monica Marlowe wrote:

Good Round everyone! Good round! Shake it off. You've seen your reviews, now back to the drawing/writing/drafting table and start making monsters!

You guys are awesome! And stop posting, please, you're giving me anxiety attacks.

I'll echo Monica here - great job getting so far, now shift focus forward and ignore the sirens call of the "post a reply" box. Trust me, you do NOT want to be in the line of fire if the judges decide to lay down the law and start issuing warnings and disqualifications for commenting on entries.

And don't make the assumption that you are out because of how the comments or exit polls are turning out. Keep working on the assumption that you made it and are on to the next round.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32 , Star Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7, Star Voter Season 8 aka DeathQuaker

Indeed, everyone clearly worked very hard. Good job and good luck, everyone!

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32 , Star Voter Season 7, Star Voter Season 8

I'm trying to keep a sock stuffed in my mouth (harder than I expected), but I hope I can at least say that I'm really enjoying this round, and am learning a lot -- and not just from my own map's feedback. This whole contest is just such a boon to the gaming community in general, and everyone who dreams of designing fantasy RPG's in particular. Like a free, public master class in game design for the world. I know Paizo benefits from this, but it's also an act of great generosity.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32 , Marathon Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Champion Voter Season 8, Marathon Voter Season 9 aka GM_Solspiral

I believe I have critiqued everyone's maps but PM me if I missed you

Marathon Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9 aka Clouds Without Water

*dances limbo in limbo*

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32 , Star Voter Season 7, Star Voter Season 8

All right, total radio silence is getting to me. So here's a question that has nothing to do with the present round, and I'm genuinely curious what others would think. I've been considering what other sorts of challenges might make sense for a round of RPG Superstar, and it occurs to me that there's an obvious one that I don't remember ever being included: Puzzles. These are a long-standing part of the RPG tradition, but you hardly ever see them anymore, in Paizo products or anywhere. Is this just because everyone hates them and doesn't want to deal with them? Or are they beloved and unjustly neglected? There are probably more recent examples, but the last one I clearly remember seeing was in Shackled City (in the 5th chapter; I remember it involving colored mirrors, though I don't remember the puzzle's name.)

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32 , Marathon Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Champion Voter Season 8, Marathon Voter Season 9 aka GM_Solspiral

I think puzzles fit better in video games than in a table top game... I had a GM that loved throwing them in 2nd ed but that was like 15 years ago.

Ever time I've tried to throw one out there it ended up disappointing.

Marathon Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9 aka Clouds Without Water

Traps could be an interesting variation. There may not be a lot of room for crunch-y variety, but the descriptive part could vary widely. I miss the fluffier rounds of earlier RPGSS years.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32 , Star Voter Season 7, Star Voter Season 8

If they did traps, maybe they could get Grimtooth as a judge? =7

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16 , Star Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7, Star Voter Season 8

Puzzles often betray the disconnect between the character and player, and seem to break the momentum of a good game as a result. I wouldn't say that's true of all puzzles, but certainly most. PFS scenarios include them often enough and while they're rarely done poorly, they most often result in one or two players figuring them out while everyone else hits up the snack counter. It's not surprising that they don't show up as often as they used to.

Scarab Sages Modules Overlord

Scott LaBarge wrote:
I've been considering what other sorts of challenges might make sense for a round of RPG Superstar, and it occurs to me that there's an obvious one that I don't remember ever being included: Puzzles. These are a long-standing part of the RPG tradition, but you hardly ever see them anymore, in Paizo products or anywhere.

It's a perfectly fair idea, and one I have even kicked around. There are a few reasons I have back-burnered it for the moment. The first is exactly what you mention - Paizo doesn't put a whole lot of puzzles in adventures, and those we do evolve naturally from our writers. In other words, we never say "what we need here is a collection of 12 puzzles." We DO often need a specific number of magic items, maps, monsters, encounters, and adventures. Since we want to find awesome new talent in this contest, I want to focus on challenges that are relevant to the things we most often ask freelancers to do.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 , Marathon Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9 aka Locke1520

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A decent way to include puzzles might be to add it to the list of things a designer should add to the encounter round.

For example, what if the contest rules wrote:
Your encounter must include a monster from r3 and a new map (not from r2) and at least one trap, hazard or puzzle.

Marathon Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Dedicated Voter Season 9

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Grimtooth's Traps kickstarter was massively successfully funded - it won't be long before sooooo many traps and puzzles are available to throw at our PCs ;)

But as Grimtooth would say, "There will never be enough puzzles or traps!" :D

Star Voter Season 8 aka TealDeer

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Puzzles are also really, really hard to do in a way that don't feel arbitrary and stupid. I remember in the First Steps PFS adventure I played Monday (it's been 3 years since I played Pathfinder, figured I should refresh myself on the rules if I'm going to continue to freelance with 3pp Pathfinder publishers), there is a puzzle where this jerk randomly locks you in his basement and forces you to solve a really stupid puzzle involving 3 boxes. I got frustrated and spent the entire time glaring at the DM and trying to find ways to subvert the puzzle.

There are two types of truly good puzzles. The first is when Stupid B~++$@&! Puzzles are part of the buy-in to the adventure. White Plume Mountain and Tomb of Horrors are good examples of this: every puzzle in there is absolute bull, but you know, going in, that these are Absolute Bull dungeons made by Crazy Jerk Wizards. Plus, there's ways to subvert / hijack those puzzles to your own needs.

The second is when the puzzle naturally evolves from the environment. These are both much harder to create but also much more rewarding in the end. Good examples might be solving a symbolic language created by local thieves to try to find their hideout, working with a sluice in a dam to unleash a flood to take out a monster (this is especially good bc the party thus has two options: solve a puzzle, OR fight a monster).

Another good example: in the same First Steps adventure, there's an old rotting warehouse the party is supposed to investigate to get a box out of it. I believe the adventure is written so that you have to deal with a combat encounter, a trap, and a puzzle. You have the Quest Item, a crate full of paperwork on a precarious perch of two boards set over a huge rotted hole in the floor, a winch for moving crates in and out of the warehouse, a bunch of Dire Rats with disease to attack the players (maybe some more stuff, there were coffins in there...) and a trap consisting of rotted planks around the hole that give way if you try to get the box. I THINK the way you're SUPPOSED to solve this room is fight the rats, find the trap, and use the winch to get the box.

I didn't even find out about this setup. I looked out on the water and went, "Hey how high above the water is this warehouse at low tide?" "Eh, 15 feet I'd say." "Cool, we take the boat tied up next to the warehouse at low tide an row under it." "You find a giant hole with the box on two planks above it." "... THAT WAS TOO EASY. THIS IS A TRAP."

And it was a trap just... not for those of us under the box. Our Halfling Arcanist climbed in through the window instead, because she hadn't talked to the rest of the party and didn't know we were doing this (she'd wandered off alone. sigh.) She was how I found out about the interior layout and probable EXPECTED solution, because she accidentally set off the trap... dropping the box right into our boat (and... knocking my poor gunslinger into the water, where she started screaming MY BLACK POWDER MY BLACK POWDER NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO)

This is a puzzle that:

1. Has more than one solution. You can use the winch, OR take a boat under the hole and grab the box that way.
2. Makes total sense for the location. The box contained important shipping information and illegal goods (I think) that the guy who owned it was trying to hide from the authorities. An old warehouse on the water would naturally have a winch for taking goods into and out of the building, and it'd also make sense for a small boat to be tied up to the dock.
3. Has failure modes that not only aren't garbage, but still make sense for the location. A paranoid guy who cared about keeping the paperwork out of the wrong hands would indeed look at that floor and go, "Okay, I can put the box over those planks so that it's hard to get. If someone tries, it falls into the water; I lose my papers, but the other guy doesn't get 'em, either. And I can always grab it with the winch or my own boat." The box also had black powder in it, which would a. serve as an additional failure mode and trap layer if some wise guy set off a fire spell of some sort, and b. also served as treasure (my sopping wet gunslinger nearly cried with joy at the unexpected boon).

THAT is a GOOD puzzle. It makes sense in context, it has multiple solutions, and multiple failure modes that aren't total gotchas (I imagine if you got the box out of the water fast enough, for instance, you could get the papers. Setting it on fire, uh, well, that's your own fault).

Meanwhile, "Lol a crazy guy locks you in a vault with random hidden keys and some boxes :V " is arbitrary and rude and boring.

So... TL;DR -- puzzles are REALLY HARD. I do think they'd make a good RPGS challenge, but Owen pointed out reasons they don't always work... and again, super, super difficult. I could see creating a puzzle encounter instead of a monster encounter for a penultimate round though.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32 , Star Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7, Star Voter Season 8 aka DeathQuaker

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I would add to all that's been said--all good stuff--that a challenge to making puzzles is incorporating in the cooperative/team play that much of playing an RPG should, IMO, encourage. While everyone has their own niche/way to shine, a good adventure offers challenges where everyone must learn to rely upon each other's strengths, shore up each other's weaknesses, and do things that require folks working together to survive.

A lot of puzzles are designed such that they only really occupy one character--or worse, as Brian said, one or two players solving the puzzle effectively out of character. A brief puzzle like that could be okay if it means, say, the wizard is getting his high-Int moment to shine (but the wizard also rarely has trouble shining elsewhere), but it's hard to make that compelling or memorable over the course of the adventure.

Things where the PCs really have to work together ("okay, you stand on that square, I'll stand on this one, and Bob'll pull the rope") can engage everyone and make everyone feel useful, and is a good way of emphasizing party teamwork outside of combat.

Even then it has to avoid a lot of design pitfalls though.

Certainly a compelling puzzle within an encounter/adventure proposal could really help a Superstar-contestant shine... but it's also risky in alienating voters who just generally dislike puzzles.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32 , Marathon Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8 aka Cathara

Now I really, really wish I'd had more time to work on my map :( I know I could have done better than this. Ah well, next time. :)

Lantern Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32 , Dedicated Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7, Star Voter Season 8 aka Black Powder Chocobo

Avatar-twinsies!

Congrats for being selected as the alternate map, Allana. Unlike the other alternates, you at least get a chance to get comments and critiques for refining your abilities.

Designer , Marathon Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7

Allana Sliwinski wrote:
Now I really, really wish I'd had more time to work on my map :( I know I could have done better than this. Ah well, next time. :)

It's going to be just a bit tougher too, with some people having already voted (they can change their votes, but they might not choose to do so). On the other hand, congratulations on being the top alternate! Now the authors of all 33 items that received at least a weak keep from 2/3 judges get a shot this year.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 , Marathon Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7, Dedicated Voter Season 8 aka Jiggy

Wait, what? Did someone get DQ'd?

Scarab Sages Modules Overlord

As a result of a disqualification, a new map has been entered in Round 2. Because the timeframe on voting is getting tight, I'd ask everyone who has already voted to take a moment to consider The Sunken City of Justnoque, and decide if it's inclusion calls for a change in your vote (which is easily done at the same link you originally voted).

This is the map of the first alternate, Allana Sliwinski, who won that position with the round 1 entry of the Harlequin's Hurlbat. It takes considerable drive to complete a Superstar challenge as an alternate, since you know there is only an outside chance anyone will get to see your work, and I congratulate Allana Sliwinski on being ready for this moment.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled contest!

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32 , Marathon Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8 aka Cathara

Mark Seifter wrote:
Allana Sliwinski wrote:
Now I really, really wish I'd had more time to work on my map :( I know I could have done better than this. Ah well, next time. :)
It's going to be just a bit tougher too, with some people having already voted (they can change their votes, but they might not choose to do so). On the other hand, congratulations on being the top alternate! Now the authors of all 33 items that received at least a weak keep from 2/3 judges get a shot this year.

I'm super happy to get a shot! It's awesome :) I just wish I'd had a bit more time to put into the entry, leading up to it I was changing country and starting a new job >.<

Still, super fun and that's what's important.

Designer , Marathon Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7

Jacob Kellogg wrote:
Wait, what? Did someone get DQ'd?

Based on your post in the other thread, I'll save you the heart attack: it wasn't you. A contestant provided additional information to explain their entry.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 , Marathon Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7, Dedicated Voter Season 8 aka Jiggy

What happened? Did somebody talk about their map or something?

EDIT: Ninja'd. No heart attacks here, as I was pretty confident about not having done anything post-reveal to DQ myself. But maaaan, that's so sad that someone got themselves DQ'd. Again. Does that happen every year? Seems like it does.

Designer , Marathon Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7

Allana Sliwinski wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Allana Sliwinski wrote:
Now I really, really wish I'd had more time to work on my map :( I know I could have done better than this. Ah well, next time. :)
It's going to be just a bit tougher too, with some people having already voted (they can change their votes, but they might not choose to do so). On the other hand, congratulations on being the top alternate! Now the authors of all 33 items that received at least a weak keep from 2/3 judges get a shot this year.

I'm super happy to get a shot! It's awesome :) I just wish I'd had a bit more time to put into the entry, leading up to it I was changing country and starting a new job >.<

Still, super fun and that's what's important.

And hey, if nothing else, you'll be ready for an even stronger entry next year!

Scarab Sages Modules Overlord

Jacob Kellogg wrote:
What happened? Did somebody talk about their map or something?

Sadly, yes. If the contestant wants to talk about it further, that's their choice.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32 , Marathon Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8 aka Cathara

That's the plan :D This is gonna be a montage for next year if nothing else. (and everybody needs a montage)

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32 , Star Voter Season 7, Star Voter Season 8

It was the "Leftover's" map; he provided a link to some content that explained his map. I was kind of figuring he was in trouble, and I'm a bit surprised it took as long as it did for a DQ to get announced. But I'm sure the judges wanted to be deliberate, careful, and fair, and get the addition of the alternate lined up properly.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32 , Star Voter Season 7, Star Voter Season 8

And congrats, Allana, on your advancement! I see the new sig by your name and everything! :-)

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32 , Marathon Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8 aka Cathara

Oh wow! That just appeared :D

Marathon Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9 aka Clouds Without Water

Allana Sliwinski wrote:
Now I really, really wish I'd had more time to work on my map :( I know I could have done better than this. Ah well, next time. :)

First, congrats!

Second, trust me, I know exactly what you mean!

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32 , Marathon Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8 aka Cathara

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R D Ramsey wrote:
Allana Sliwinski wrote:
Now I really, really wish I'd had more time to work on my map :( I know I could have done better than this. Ah well, next time. :)

First, congrats!

Second, trust me, I know exactly what you mean!

Cheers :) I'm psyched I got the special tag, it's kinda epic.

Now I should get back to prepping for game tonight!

RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32 , Marathon Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Marathon Voter Season 9

If I remember correct, last year there was 1 DQ because the entrant had made top-8 in a previous year.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32 , Marathon Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8 aka Cathara

Grumpus wrote:
If I remember correct, last year there was 1 DQ because the entrant had made top-8 in a previous year.

Top 8 aren't allowed to try again?

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16 , Dedicated Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7 aka primemover003

Ouch, a self inflicted DQ... When all else fails, read the directions folks!

Congratulations Allana! You're in the big show now. Keep your foot on the gas because the pace only gets crazier from here on out!

--Vrock Superstar

Scarab Sages Modules Overlord

Allana Sliwinski wrote:
Top 8 aren't allowed to try again?

Correct.

The Rules wrote:
The contest is open to the general public, with the following exceptions: Employees of Paizo, their immediate family members, and persons with whom such employees are domiciled are ineligible. Anyone who has been employed full-time as a designer for a game company is ineligible. Anyone with a cover credit on a hardcover RPG book is ineligible. Anyone who has a design credit in 3 or more of Paizo's Pathfinder products is ineligible. The top 8 finalists of all previous RPG Superstar™ contests are ineligible. Contestants must provide their real names on their paizo.com accounts. Legal identification must be produced on request.

Marathon Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9 aka Clouds Without Water

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Did everyone get their map in by the deadline? Even all 4 of us alternates? Grats us! :-)

Scarab Sages Modules Overlord

Yes, everyone did and, yes, you deserve congratulations!

Project Manager

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Congrats, Allana! :D

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32 , Star Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7, Star Voter Season 8 aka DeathQuaker

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Ouch, sorry to hear about the disqualification.

Allana, congratulations and good luck!

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16 , Marathon Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8

Congrats, Allana!

Unfortunate thing that disqualification. :/

Even though it probably isn't much comfort right now, at least the lessons learned this year can be used to come back stronger next year.

Shadow Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32 , Marathon Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9 aka mamaursula

If there is ANY doubt that commenting at all on your own items is strictly forbidden, I hope everyone learned an important lesson here today and will stop chatting up the forums. Better to be safe than disqualified. This includes commenting on other entries and adding in stuff about your own. Seriously, go read a book, watch a movie, make some monsters, just don't disqualify yourself.

Lantern Lodge Dedicated Voter Season 8, Marathon Voter Season 9 aka Jayson MF Kip

Congrats, Allana!

Do us alternates proud!

Star Voter Season 8 aka TealDeer

A, congrats Allana!

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32 aka jeffh

Monica Marlowe wrote:
If there is ANY doubt that commenting at all on your own items is strictly forbidden, I hope everyone learned an important lesson here today and will stop chatting up the forums. Better to be safe than disqualified. This includes commenting on other entries and adding in stuff about your own. Seriously, go read a book, watch a movie, make some monsters, just don't disqualify yourself.

Owen has specifically said that commenting on other entries is NOT against the rules. I've chosen to stop doing it because apparently some people do take a dim view of it - possibly because of this misconception that there's a rule it violates, I'm not sure - but it will not get you DQed by itself.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2014 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 , Dedicated Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Dedicated Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9

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Based on my observations and experiences from the previous years, below are a few things I recommend to the finalists.

1) I recommend that you don't talk about your entry at all during the voting round. Even just saying that your entry isn't quite as good as you wanted it to be because of circumstances X, Y, and Z is kind of tempting fate. If you're not sure what's ok to say, err on the side of caution; say nothing until the round is over.

2) I recommend that you don't talk about each other's entries. It's certainly not against the rules to do so, but there are historical reasons for why I recommend against it. It's a bit unfair to say something that reveals a perceived weakness in other people's work, even if it's part of an otherwise positive comment. Even if that's not your intention, someone might misinterpret your words. So, again, if you're unsure, err on the side of caution.

3) I recommend that you don't moderate or admonish one another. In the context of RPG Superstar, you are peers, equals, so please respect one another. If you want to issue a friendly warning, be discreet about it. Don't do anything that draws more attention to a fellow finalist's plight.

That's just my 1d2 cp, take it or leave it. :-)

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32 , Star Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7, Star Voter Season 8 aka DeathQuaker

Thanks, Mikko.

RPG Superstar 2009, Contributor

I too agree with Mikko. Best to keep your head down, focus on absorbing the feedback you get on your submission. Plan your strategy for the next round. And, if you've got anything to say about your fellow competitors, make sure it's supportive. You're all running this race together. And though there's only one winner, everyone has already "won" by being in the competition and having a chance to experience it. If you want to give someone advice (like here in the Guildhall), that's certainly cool. Just be careful with how it comes across or you potentially paint yourself in a negative light...both to the one you're addressing and those who are reading along.

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16 , Marathon Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Dedicated Voter Season 9 aka Darkjoy

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Scott LaBarge wrote:
If they did traps, maybe they could get Grimtooth as a judge? =7

Nah, you need ME

RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 , Marathon Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Dedicated Voter Season 9 aka motteditor

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Jeff Heikkinen wrote:
Owen has specifically said that commenting on other entries is NOT against the rules. I've chosen to stop doing it because apparently some people do take a dim view of it - possibly because of this misconception that there's a rule it violates, I'm not sure - but it will not get you DQed by itself.

It's not that it's against the rules. It's that it's easy to basically try to get people to vote for yourself by pointing out the flaws in your competitors. That's what's frowned on. On the flip side, if all you're going to say it "great job/congratulations/this rocks," you're not really adding much to the discussion and it just seems like you're trying to get attention for yourself.

Mikko and Neil are mostly right.

Of course, complete radio silence is a little tough, IMO. I found it frustrating to suddenly not have the Guildhall there as part of the camaraderie that is part of the contest (I've become friendly with several of my competitors over the years). While you should largely be using this time to work on monsters (even if you don't think you're going to advance, it's good practice and there are plenty of other places you can use monsters; an open call for them was just posted by LPJ Design), I do recommend also taking some time to decompress even as you design.

There's nothing that says you can't talk about non-gaming related things here: What are you guys planning food-wise for Super Bowl parties? Do you want the Patriots to win in a close thriller or to just blow the Seahawks out? Which is the best super hero show -- "Flash," "Arrow" or "Gotham"?

The rules are you can't elaborate on your current entry, so don't talk at all about maps or dungeons, but you can keep getting to know each other and letting us get to know you. (Though as Neil says, be careful about how you do it.)

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