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I hate to put more pressure on GMs, since their plate is already full, but the characters stat arrays shouldn't matter a lot if the GM is doing a good job managing the spot light of the game.
Again, if the GM is managing the spotlight and the players are respectful of each other then the game should still be fun with random stats.
Depends on whether you want to tailor the concept to the stats, or the stats to the concept. If there's a character I found in literature that I want to plunder -- hey, this week I want to be Inspector Columbo, complete with bird and trenchcoat -- I need to be able to put the stats where Columbo has them, not where the dice give them.
At the extreme, random stats give me no control over concept at all. 3d6 in order, and I got an intelligence of 6? Guess I'm not playing a wizard after all. It's not that fun to be forced to play a character you don't want to play.
And all the modifications that give me more control over the character design process basically add complexity while giving me only some of what I wanted in the first place, the ability to play the character I envision playing.
Just reading these comments, I'm starting to think that everyone allows a stat array higher (sometimes much higher) than a 15-point buy. Why is that?
I give my high stat array because it helps MAD characters be playable without needing to sacrifice too much. In general it's also much more fun for the players, and while the point buy equivalent of my stat array is very high, it's a well rounded array and doesn't actually allow anyone to min/max their stats particularly hard. No one starts with a 20 in any stat, which actively discourages SAD classes (which are typically spell casters which are the most powerful classes in the game) and encourages MAD classes further.
It does increase the power level of the group, but the players seem to enjoy the weld rounded nature of their characters more. It sucks tanking your int and cha to 7 just so you can fulfill the other parts of your character concept. So, as a GM I just compensate by adding the advanced simple template to every creature (+2 to all rolls, +4 AC, and +2 hp/hd) and maximize hp.
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PF is a d20 system. If two melee characters are fighting side by side, one has an additional +1 STR over the other, it wouldn't even be noticeable in a short fight. We're talking about a difference of 5% of attacks that will miss for one character will hit for the other. An observer would see no difference in fighting skill.
True that they may not see a difference in skill, but they should be able to tell the difference in results.
The person with the higher strength will hit 5% more AND do an additional 1-2 points of damage every hit. The amount varies depending on if they are using a two-handed weapon or not and what their exact strength is.
They will also be able to carry more equipment. A single point of Str can make a big difference in the amount of equipment you can carry at a light or medium load. At the low end, you have trouble wearing any armor. At the high end, you could carry a small character without problem.
Also when we are talking about rolled statistics it is often much more than a +1 bonus difference between the best and worse characters. Using 4d6 drop lowest you can easily roll a character with a total bonus of zero or less, or someone who has a bonus in every single attribute.
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That's a good point about the damage boost.
I figure that the "fairness" factor is for video games. If you're playing a roleplaying game and another character is bigger and smarter than your character then you just roleplay that accordingly. Thankfully the game makes class abilities powerful enough to smooth over inequality deriving from ability scores.
I just see so many player stat blocks that are min/maxed or pretty good at everything. It'd be interesting to, once in a while, play a character that is not very good of lots of stuff but just good enough at this one area to maybe survive an adventure. Maybe I'm a masochist.
I remember reading that 15 point buy was supposed to generate near the same bonuses as 4d6 drop the lowest, but there was a math error. Not sure if that's true or if that was from original D20.
The Standard method of ability score generation (4d6 drop the lowest) is equivalent to about 19 points. However, it carries much more risk compared to Point Buy.
I would suggest the Standard Fantasy Point Buy amount of 15 is more 'equivalent' to the Standard method (4d6 drop the lowest) because of the risk involved.
I like the idea of giving players a choice, perhaps between 15 Point Buy and and 4d6 drop the lowest if you're using the rerolling rules from Dungeons and Dragons 3rd edition, or 10 Point Buy and 4d6 drop the lowest if you're not. You could even give players a choice between the Classic 3d6 method and a 0 Point Buy.
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I remember reading that 15 point buy was supposed to generate near the same bonuses as 4d6 drop the lowest, but there was a math error. Not sure if that's true or if that was from original D20.The Standard method of ability score generation (4d6 drop the lowest) is equivalent to about 19 points. However, it carries much more risk compared to Point Buy.
I would suggest the Standard Fantasy Point Buy amount of 15 is more 'equivalent' to the Standard method (4d6 drop the lowest) because of the risk involved.
I like the idea of giving players a choice, perhaps between 15 Point Buy and and 4d6 drop the lowest if you're using the rerolling rules from Dungeons and Dragons 3rd edition, or 10 Point Buy and 4d6 drop the lowest if you're not. You could even give players a choice between the Classic 3d6 method and a 0 Point Buy.
That last one really hurts casters. A fighter can fight with all 10s a caster us extremely limited at the start and unlikely to ever get high level spells. No cure light wounds for you and forget ressurection.
I like the idea of giving players a choice, perhaps between 15 Point Buy and and 4d6 drop the lowest if you're using the rerolling rules from Dungeons and Dragons 3rd edition, or 10 Point Buy and 4d6 drop the lowest if you're not. You could even give players a choice between the Classic 3d6 method and a 0 Point Buy.
I admit I've never understood any advantages to rolling. None.
But I'm tempted to ask in this case : would you be interested in rolling five of the six stats (using any method you liked) and then setting the 6th stat to be the value of whatever's left using a 15 (or whatever) point buy system. E.g., you roll all twelves for your first five stats (2 pt equivalent), you then get a 14 (5 pt equivalent) for your final stat.
Would this be as good as rolling for all six? If not, why not?
If so, just use this when everyone else makes a 15 point character and everyone's happy.
That last one really hurts casters. A fighter can fight with all 10s a caster us extremely limited at the start and unlikely to ever get high level spells. No cure light wounds for you and forget ressurection.
A low casting stat isn't as big of a deal in Pathfinder. Sure your DCs will be horrible, but a headband of your stat combined with stats from leveling will leave you capable of casting anything.
And a 0 point buy isn't all 10s. You just have to take from some stats to feed other stats. You can actually have a natural 18 with 0 point buy. You could less pitifully have one 16 and five 8s.
You could less pitifully have one 16 and five 8s.
PROTIP: That's still pitiful.
You could less pitifully have one 16 and five 8s.PROTIP: That's still pitiful.
Well, if the entire party is doing 0 point buy, it's not that bad. Most casters have a low DC option. Witches are probably hurt the most by not having a single high stat.
I like the idea of giving players a choice, perhaps between 15 Point Buy and and 4d6 drop the lowest if you're using the rerolling rules from Dungeons and Dragons 3rd edition, or 10 Point Buy and 4d6 drop the lowest if you're not. You could even give players a choice between the Classic 3d6 method and a 0 Point Buy.
Guys! C'mon.
I was merely suggesting a choice between the Classic 3d6 method and a 0 Point Buy in order to reinforce my previous point about giving players somewhat equivalent choices between random methods and non-random methods. I was not suggesting that the best method of all methods Upon High is the Classic method or a 0 Point Buy. It was an example, the Classic Method is equivalent to about 3 points.
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I like the idea of giving players a choice, perhaps between 15 Point Buy and and 4d6 drop the lowest if you're using the rerolling rules from Dungeons and Dragons 3rd edition, or 10 Point Buy and 4d6 drop the lowest if you're not. You could even give players a choice between the Classic 3d6 method and a 0 Point Buy.I admit I've never understood any advantages to rolling. None.
But I'm tempted to ask in this case : would you be interested in rolling five of the six stats (using any method you liked) and then setting the 6th stat to be the value of whatever's left using a 15 (or whatever) point buy system. E.g., you roll all twelves for your first five stats (2 pt equivalent), you then get a 14 (5 pt equivalent) for your final stat.
Would this be as good as rolling for all six? If not, why not?
If so, just use this when everyone else makes a 15 point character and everyone's happy.
Yes, this method would be good because it attempts to address the point that different players enjoy different methods of character creation. For comparison, some players enjoy the creative exercise of building their character's background while others enjoy randomly generating one and witnessing what is born.
There are many different issues with different methods of ability score generation. Each method has its pros and cons. One issue that I'm concerned with is the ubiquitous 'dump score'. Neither the Standard method nor the Point Buy method address this very well. Other issues are the disparity between different sets of rolled scores or the archetypal ("cookie-cutter") sets of scores generated using point buy.
The point is different players place more or less value on each of these issues and gravitates to an ability score generation method as a result. The Dungeon Master is traditionally in charge of what method will be used and he should be cognizant that what he likes is based upon what issues he places value.
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I hate rolling for stats, someone always "rolls" an exceptionally good set of stats when no one was present to observe. I dislike the immediate advantage the rolled stats tend to give. No one likes to play sidekick because they happened to roll poorly relative to someone else.
I like point buy better, because it is more fair at character generation. Sure, some classes are easier or harder to play based on point buy, but the player gets to decide how to arrange his stats and what choice of class to play. If a player has poor system mastery this can still give bad results, but is more fair than rolling.
I like stat arrays the most, and when I GM that is what I provide. I give an array of 16/16/15/14/13/11. It's very generous, but also stops casters from getting a very high stat from the beginning of the game. Instead capping them at 18 in their casting stat. This also prevent melee types from starting with 20 either, which can be more damaging at low levels. This particular stat array also makes MAD character viable, and perhaps even thrive because you've got 4 decent stats to start with.
What GMs do you have that don't rule "If I didn't observe you make the roll for stats, you don't get what was rolled."?
I remember reading that 15 point buy was supposed to generate near the same bonuses as 4d6 drop the lowest, but there was a math error. Not sure if that's true or if that was from original D20.The Standard method of ability score generation (4d6 drop the lowest) is equivalent to about 19 points. However, it carries much more risk compared to Point Buy.
I would suggest the Standard Fantasy Point Buy amount of 15 is more 'equivalent' to the Standard method (4d6 drop the lowest) because of the risk involved.
I like the idea of giving players a choice, perhaps between 15 Point Buy and and 4d6 drop the lowest if you're using the rerolling rules from Dungeons and Dragons 3rd edition, or 10 Point Buy and 4d6 drop the lowest if you're not. You could even give players a choice between the Classic 3d6 method and a 0 Point Buy.
4d6 drop low is equivalent to 15 pt buy already.
average on 4d6 drop low is 12.24 which is the same as 12,12,12,12,12,13 pt buy with a little left over. Or 15 points.
What GMs do you have that don't rule "If I didn't observe you make the roll for stats, you don't get what was rolled."?
It's awkward. We have a really bad power gamer in the group who always tries to outdo everyone. He will show up with really high "rolled" stats. Because we are close friends outside of the group, other people in the group have a hard time calling him on it because it's basically saying he's lying.
Which I'm sure he is, and I would call him on it if I were the GM, but I am not the current GM. Honestly, I probably wouldn't allow the player at my table because he always treats it as a competition with the other players.
But yeah, that's basically why.
I will say though, the current GM dealt with this by giving everyone the same array as that player "rolled".
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What GMs do you have that don't rule "If I didn't observe you make the roll for stats, you don't get what was rolled."?It's awkward. We have a really bad power gamer in the group who always tries to outdo everyone. He will show up with really high "rolled" stats. Because we are close friends outside of the group, other people in the group have a hard time calling him on it because it's basically saying he's lying.
Which I'm sure he is, and I would call him on it if I were the GM, but I am not the current GM. Honestly, I probably wouldn't allow the player at my table because he always treats it as a competition with the other players.
But yeah, that's basically why.
I will say though, the current GM dealt with this by giving everyone the same array as that player "rolled".
That's certainly one way to deal with it. Personally I'd have a character generation session, Everyone rolls their stats for first level right then and there, mete out rerolls or have everyone try a different method if most are uncomfortable with their results with what they know of my sessions and encounter builds.
If I don't see the full process of the dice leaving your fist to settling on the table, it doesn't count. I wouldn't be so strict on other rolls in the game, but for something that's going into multiple sessions, I'm going to be all eagle-eyes.
Now I really want to give it a whirl. Wonder if the one home-game I'm in would mind me GMing Emerald Spire on rolled stats if he ever gets tired of GMing.
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I personally like character to be great at some things AND bad at others; it gives PCs more of a chance to shine when they are the only one in the party who can make a check.
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4d6 drop low is equivalent to 15 pt buy already.average on 4d6 drop low is 12.24 which is the same as 12,12,12,12,12,13 pt buy with a little left over. Or 15 points.
That's not a good way to model it. For a proper comparison you'd have to get the average point-buy value of a rolled stat, not the point-buy value of the average rolled stat. The problem is, that rolling can generate stats between 3 and 18 while point-buy only allows stats between 7 and 18, although rolling below 7 is rather rare.
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I personally like character to be great at some things AND bad at others; it gives PCs more of a chance to shine when they are the only one in the party who can make a check.
I find that the universe tends to deliver the lowest rolls in those circumstances.
DC 20 lockpick on the trap? Investigator has +10 and is the only one trained? Cleric casts Guidance for an extra +1, and the bard starts belting out Inspire Competence?
Roll 1, fail check by more than 5, trigger trap, cleric ends up using their last channel to heal just before a fight with a pack of ghouls with class levels.
Different strokes for different blokes.
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average on 4d6 drop low is 12.24 which is the same as 12,12,12,12,12,13 pt buy with a little left over. Or 15 points.
That doesn't take into account the higher cost of the more extreme variants you get from random spikes - a 15 and a 10 represent a higher point-buy than a 12 and a 13.
From another thread:"Across one hundred trials, 4d6 Drop Lowest varies between a -4 Point Buy and a 50 Point buy, averages an approximate 20 Point Buy with a median of an approximate 18 Point Buy."
However, rolled stats are almost always going to be weaker than the equivalent planned point buy. They will typically include (a) odd-numbered stats, which don't help much, and (b) high chance of bad minimaxing for your preferred class choice - eg, for a monk I'd want four fairly high stats, but for a wizard I'd want one really high stat and a couple of decent ones. I can create that with Point Buy, but rolled stats might give me all 14s (bad for a wizard) or one 18 and a bunch of 12s (bad for a monk).
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I hate to put more pressure on GMs, since their plate is already full, but the characters stat arrays shouldn't matter a lot if the GM is doing a good job managing the spot light of the game.
I don't plan spotlight time. I do put various situations in the game to make it so that unless you have built a character that is bad at everything that you should find something to do. Personally I don't think it is the GM's job to "spot light" your character. The game has social situations, combat of various types, traps, some problem solving, and so on. Between all of that you should have a character can contribute better in some way at some time. If not then planned spot light time won't help because someone else will be better at you in each of those situations anyway, even during time that was planned for you. The only exception would be something RP based that is written around your background story, but background story moments do not help a player fell less marginal if he has crappy stats, and super character" is doing everything else.
Real life example: I tend to roll well, and I so with a druid whose primary goal was to be good in combat in animal form. Due to my high perception I found all of the traps, and bad hiding bad guys, and I killed them in melee, even in humanoid form. What I could not kill my animal companion did. Our scout had rolled terribly so did not want to really risk scouting. A few times I chose a mobile and/or small form and went ahead to check things out. Now you will probably reply with "It was a druid". I will admit using one of the game's best classes did help me do this, but if that player had better stats he would have had a higher perception, and hit points. He admittedly said that was what stopped him, so even if my druid who rolled well had not existed he still would have been reluctant to scout, and he would still would not have found those traps.Of course not rolling for stats would remove have made this situation a lot less painful. This is how I manage spotlight time--> I make sure the player has the means to create his own spotlight time, and you give them a variety of situations to use what they have.
PF is a d20 system. If two melee characters are fighting side by side, one has an additional +1 STR over the other, it wouldn't even be noticeable in a short fight. We're talking about a difference of 5% of attacks that will miss for one character will hit for the other. An observer would see no difference in fighting skill.
It might not be a +1 in the main stat. It might be a +2 or more, and the player will notice when. Also many times the rolls(for stats) create a much larger difference across the board that shows in the game.
It's all psychological to the players but the characters themselves would barely notice.
The characters most likely would not care, since they are not real people. They would likely be happy to have someone else who is great at ___. I know I prefer getting teamed up with talented people in real life. The players however might not be so happy playing Robin to everyone else's Batman.
Now if you're straight up rolling and one person get's a 40 point buy equivalent and another gets a 5 point buy, you will notice the difference. But if both players are mature then you have an interesting party dynamic that we don't normally get to play with.
I don't think it is so much a maturity thing since we all know someone will emerge as the MVP. However, most people at the least like to know they are useful at the table, and/or they get to do use their talents. Sometimes the difference in stats causes this not to happen.
Now of course you will likely say that if super character can do everything the other character can do that he should step aside and not use ability X*. However the player will know this is a metagame decision, and may not like it. Had they had equal stats this may not have been an issue.
*Another dynamic is that the other characters combined leave one character in a position where is not the best for any situation, so they have to step aside occasionally, if that player is the type to want the spot light.
Another real life situation: I was GM'ing and there was a player who was decent at many things, but good at nothing. After the game he came to me about times when he wanted to do _____. _______ came up at important times in the game, and being unsuccessful would have caused the party a lot of trouble, so they did not want to leave it to chance.
Basically he wanted to be the the character that saved the day, but did not make a character that could save the day in any situation. Now of course I could have made the situation easier to bypass, but then the "why are you coddling my character" would have come up. <----This was not due to low rolls in this situation, but the same player only avoided the situation before because the game ended before his low rolls doomed his character to the party tag-a-long
Rather than having the best man for the job step aside, and manage all of this spotlight time, if your players care about it, why not just use point buy?
Now if the players know you will create situations specially for them, and the other players will step aside, and that does not bother them, then rolls are fine.
I was slated to run an AP, and half of the group wanted to roll so I told them that everyone rolls and then records the stats. They can then choose any rolled stat array. That way we dont have someone being forced to use an 11 point buy while someone else has a 37 point buy. Everyone can use the 37 point buy.
PS: I don't think anyone rolled a 37 point buy. I just chose a high number to make a point. I think the highest was close to 30.
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Back in 3.0 when we were still rolling stats, one of the players rolled the equivalent of a 48 point buy. D&D 3 point-buy was different from Pathfinder (25 being standard and 32 high), but it would have cost about 37 points in PF. As a compromise, the DM gave every player a 40 point-buy. Since than, I always use point-buy.
I've also seen proponents of some esoteric stat rolling method throw a tantrum when they didn't end up with the stats they wanted.
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More and more I just want to tell my players "Pick the stats you want" and be done with it. Rather than waste time with convoluted methods of 'fairness' and 'balance'.
Hubris points:
Everyone assigns there own stats and then calculates the Point Buy value. If your PB value is over a certain number, you get Hubris points. Anytime the DM needs to make a random decision, like which character will this random event/monster/attack effect/hit, he picks the person with the highest Hubris score, and then subtracts 1 from that Hubris score. I wish I could remember where I saw this...memory is always the 2nd thing to go with age, I just wish I could remember the first.The method we currently use, take cards (18 cards, adding up to whatever power level the DM wants).
1- randomly divide cards between 6 stats, in order
2- add up each stat
3- add 1 to a stat and 2 (max 18)to another stat
3.5(optional) switch any 2 stats
4- adjust for race
OR
Online I give stat arrays of about 20 point buy value.
Here are some previous threads to look at;
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2na5r?PCs-using-different-ability-score-generat ion#30
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nj6v?How-do-you-roll-stats-for-new-characters# 8
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pj2l?Character-Generation-Methods#19
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pr5y?Suggestions-for-alternative-attribute-gen eration#10
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qaqa?roll-or-points-buy-which-is-better#38
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2r46q&page=2?Imbalance-Via-Rolls#73
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ri4f&page=2?Generating-Stats-tricks-and-pr eferences#59
But I'm tempted to ask in this case : would you be interested in rolling five of the six stats (using any method you liked) and then setting the 6th stat to be the value of whatever's left using a 15 (or whatever) point buy system. E.g., you roll all twelves for your first five stats (2 pt equivalent), you then get a 14 (5 pt equivalent) for your final stat.
Interesting.
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Back in the prehistoric beginnings of D&D, we rolled straight up 3d6, in order, and lived with it. But we played rather often (several hours a day, on average) and if you got something really awful, you just managed to die, er... inadvertently, and started over.
More recently, we used the 4d6, drop lowest and assign method, and it's still frustrating for the guy who gets left out of the magic of having high stats. I was that guy. My highest stats were a 16 and a 13, which isn't awful, but paled in comparison to the other PCs in our group. So yeah, it sucked big. I played that character for 5 years, and strangely was the only one who never died or had to get raised.
So even though I have a sentimental attachment to rolling for stats, time & experience lead me to reject that method as sucking too badly. All the more or less clever ways to get around sucking badly that I see in this thread are just way, way too complex for me. Silly, absurd artificial ways of hanging onto the intrinsic randomness of rolling dice for stats.
And it all begs the basic question: what do players want out of their stats? They want high & higher stats, that's what. We're playing to have fun, right? So why not be super-heroic?
In the PF campaign we started in September, we did 25-point buy, no scores below 8 or above 17 before racial mods. Heroic, yeah, you're darned tootin. But without too extreme a case of min-maxing.
Whatever method you decide to use, just let the players have fun with being heroes.
YMMV.
Hubris points
Neat!
The method we currently use, take cards (18 cards, adding up to whatever power level the DM wants).
1- randomly divide cards between 6 stats, in order
2- add up each stat
3- add 1 to a stat and 2 (max 18)to another stat
3.5(optional) switch any 2 stats
4- adjust for race
You're words intrigue me, and I would hear more. (For example: what kinds of cards?)
Here are some previous threads to look at;
I'm
a great
helper,
yes
indeed
I sure
am! :D
EDIT: removing unnecessary part
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average on 4d6 drop low is 12.24 which is the same as 12,12,12,12,12,13 pt buy with a little left over. Or 15 points.That doesn't take into account the higher cost of the more extreme variants you get from random spikes - a 15 and a 10 represent a higher point-buy than a 12 and a 13.
From another thread:
"Across one hundred trials, 4d6 Drop Lowest varies between a -4 Point Buy and a 50 Point buy, averages an approximate 20 Point Buy with a median of an approximate 18 Point Buy."However, rolled stats are almost always going to be weaker than the equivalent planned point buy. They will typically include (a) odd-numbered stats, which don't help much, and (b) high chance of bad minimaxing for your preferred class choice - eg, for a monk I'd want four fairly high stats, but for a wizard I'd want one really high stat and a couple of decent ones. I can create that with Point Buy, but rolled stats might give me all 14s (bad for a wizard) or one 18 and a bunch of 12s (bad for a monk).
That poster doesn't explain how they account for the point-buy of values 3-6. I would hazard a guess it got bought as a 7, or just didn't get counted at all.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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Personally I like 15 point buy - I feel PFS does 20 because you are sitting down with a random group so you need to be more individually powerful to compensate for lack of coordination, whereas a home game can synergize their characters and don't need the extra boost.
There are two rolling methods I've seen that eliminate or reduce the possibility of unfairness.
The one my current group uses is that you roll stats and your point buy value at the end must be between 10 and 20. If it falls outside this range scrap them and reroll. We use a computer to roll so this doesn't take forever and you never get to see the set of uberstats you had to throw away. You only see the final result. This method allows for randomness without a super wide variation in stats.
The other that I've seen used is where you have each player roll a set of stats, then each set goes into a common pool. Everyone can then pick a set from that common pool and use it. Multiple players can choose the same set. This pretty much eliminates the unfairness because each player gets the same options. Not everyone will pick the same set always - you might have sets like 16 14 13 13 11 8 vs 18 12 11 10 10 7 - a SAD caster might prefer the second set while a more MAD character the first.
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I hate to put more pressure on GMs, since their plate is already full, but the characters stat arrays shouldn't matter a lot if the GM is doing a good job managing the spot light of the game.I don't plan spotlight time. I do put various situations in the game to make it so that unless you have built a character that is bad at everything that you should find something to do. Personally I don't think it is the GM's job to "spot light" your character. The game has social situations, combat of various types, traps, some problem solving, and so on. Between all of that you should have a character can contribute better in some way at some time. If not then planned spot light time won't help because someone else will be better at you in each of those situations anyway, even during time that was planned for you.
Each GM should do whatever they want to do. This game requires that they enjoy their role and continue doing it.
I will say that managing the spotlight is different than planning spotlight time. If you've just rolled through a combat encounter, a trap, and an obstacle and a cleric has been kind of useless for the whole session then the GM could make the next social encounter center around the cleric. Or hey, isn't that weird, the next trap requires someone to channel positive energy to deactivate it. That's not written into the adventure, you say? Strange. Nudging the spotlight is easier for the GM then it is for the character.
Shifting this back to rolled versus point-buy: if a character gets a junk stat array via rolling, the GM has the power to compensate through the narrative (unique magic items found built especially for that character?). One might argue that this is unnecessary work for the GM and they should have just used point buy to begin with. I can't argue against that except that some times things are more interesting when they're different.
I hate to put more pressure on GMs, since their plate is already full, but the characters stat arrays shouldn't matter a lot if the GM is doing a good job managing the spot light of the game.I don't plan spotlight time. I do put various situations in the game to make it so that unless you have built a character that is bad at everything that you should find something to do. Personally I don't think it is the GM's job to "spot light" your character. The game has social situations, combat of various types, traps, some problem solving, and so on. Between all of that you should have a character can contribute better in some way at some time. If not then planned spot light time won't help because someone else will be better at you in each of those situations anyway, even during time that was planned for you.Each GM should do whatever they want to do. This game requires that they enjoy their role and continue doing it.
I will say that managing the spotlight is different than planning spotlight time. If you've just rolled through a combat encounter, a trap, and an obstacle and a cleric has been kind of useless for the whole session then the GM could make the next social encounter center around the cleric. Or hey, isn't that weird, the next trap requires someone to channel positive energy to deactivate it. That's not written into the adventure, you say? Strange. Nudging the spotlight is easier for the GM then it is for the character.
Shifting this back to rolled versus point-buy: if a character gets a junk stat array via rolling, the GM has the power to compensate through the narrative (unique magic items found built especially for that character?). One might argue that this is unnecessary work for the GM and they should have just used point buy to begin with. I can't argue against that except that some times things are more interesting when they're different.
A cleric has channel energy no matter what his stats are, so that does nothing to solve the problem the poor rolls are causing.
I should also not have to make up new rules for a player when it is easier to just not roll for stats. That is just making things more complicated since no trap needs channel energy by the rules. Now if the group has nobody to disable traps, and nobody has dispel magic, and channeling is an alternate way to handle the specific trap that is different. So far this rolling and me having to do special things is not adding much to the game, at least not enough for me to deal with all of the problems that come with it.I am well aware that the trap is just an example, but as I pointed out in my other comment the character in question may not be able to do something someone else can not do. Even so occasionally throwing him a bone might not work, especially if the problem is roll stat related.
Interesting is subjective*, and I see your point, but I have never seen rolling make anything more interesting. If things are interesting in the campaign with rolling the campaign as a whole would likely be interesting with point buy also.
*Yes, I am aware that this also means that varying stats can be interesting to some people, even if they are not interesting to me.
As for special items made for that character-->Many groups want the wealth to be evenly divided, so either the character does not get the special item, or it counts against his cut, which he may not want to happen. I have been in groups where we just give an item to whoever needs it, and never count coins, but I have also been in groups where anything you take is counted against you.
I don't think rolling for stats is a terrible thing for every group. I am just pointing out that not using it is not necessarily a lack of management skills for a GM. The problems it brings just are not suitable for every group.
I feel if you need to compensate for rolling stats by adjusting the game to rely on a particular character for some reason (regardless of class) that it simply highlights why rolled stats are bad.
As a GM, I shouldn't have to compensate for characters on an individual basis. Now, if the group as a whole is having problems, that is worth compensating for. Similarly if its too easy. But my goal going into the game is to try to balance the opportunities as much as I can.*
*Yes, spell casters will always be better, not much I can do about it without a lot of work. Part of dealing with this is letting inexperienced players know the dynamic of the game and helping them understand what is and isn't strong and helping them to build their characters.
Did someone mention this already, because it sounds terribly fair? Allow everyone to use each others rolled arrays. So each player generates a set of 4d6 drop the lowest and then you can pick a set from any of the players in the group.
Did someone mention this already, because it sounds terribly fair? Allow everyone to use each others rolled arrays. So each player generates a set of 4d6 drop the lowest and then you can pick a set from any of the players in the group.
I mentioned it, and I think it is the best way to do it, but I think the idea of having different stats goes against this for many GM's.
The method we currently use, take cards (18 cards, adding up to whatever power level the DM wants).
1- randomly divide cards between 6 stats, in order
2- add up each stat
3- add 1 to a stat and 4 (max 18)to another stat
3.5(optional) switch any 2 stats
4- adjust for raceYou're words intrigue me, and I would hear more. (For example: what kinds of cards?)
We use
1 x22 x2
3 x3
4 x3
5 x4
6 x4
+1
+4= 76/6 stats = 12.6 per stat
Adjust the total points to whatever power level you want.
You mean just normal standard-type playing cards?
So, for example, your load-out could be:
STR 4 [2 aces +2 spades]
DEX 6 [3 hearts +3 diamonds]
CON 10 [4 aces +4 diamonds +2 hearts]
INT 12 [5 hears +5 spades +2 diamonds]
WIS 18 [6 aces +6 hearts +3 aces +3 spades]
CHA 22 [7 spades +7 diamonds +4 hearts +4 spades]
... based on random card pulls, after which you add a +1 and a +4 and racial adjustments?
Could it instead be:
STR 4 [2 aces +2 spades]
DEX 22 [7 spades +7 diamonds +4 hearts +4 spades]
CON 6 [3 hearts +3 diamonds]
INT 10 [4 aces +4 diamonds +2 hearts]
WIS 18 [6 aces +6 hearts +3 aces +3 spades]
CHA 12 [5 hears +5 spades +2 diamonds]
... or does it have to be "in order" somehow (from STR to CHA)? Or do we just divide the cards up among the six and then flip them over from STR->CHA in order?
(I'm using the random example for clarity, not to make any sort of point, just to be clear. Don't know what point I'd make with it anyway: I'm just trying to understand. Sorry! And thanks!)
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If (as a GM) you don't want to have to monitor the creation process, then simple point buy is good depending on how intense you plan your game to be. If you trust your players, this gives them time to plan their characters and flesh them out. On the downside, I find this provides a lot of time for power players to prep their rules lawyering. For new players, this time is a good thing.
For experienced players, I prefer a roll-on-the-spot character creation and get things rolling ad-hoc with little to no prep time. Everyone rolls their 4d6-drop-1's and they can pick among each others' roll-sets for what stats they want to use. Max HP for the first few levels, average starting gold, no magical/alchemical starting items other than class features if applicable.
This is fair since others can partake of others' fortunes, while also shaking up my anything-they-can-get-away-with munchkins *cough* I mean, coworkers I can't ditch.
You mean just normal standard-type playing cards?
Yes, normal playing cards (suits don't matter).
So, for example, your load-out could be:
>examples<
... or does it have to be "in order" somehow (from STR to CHA)? Or do we just divide the cards up among the six and then flip them over from STR->CHA in order?
(I'm using the random example for clarity, not to make any sort of point, just to be clear. Don't know what point I'd make with it anyway: I'm just trying to understand. Sorry! And thanks!)
Start with the following cards;
3 aces(value=1)2 twos
3 threes
4 fours
4 fives
4 sixes
-Keeping 1 ace(a) and 1 four seperate, shuffle/randomize the other 18 cards.
-Deal them into 6 piles of 3 cards each face down.
-Assign a stat(str,dex,con,int,wis,chr) to each face down pile.
-Turn the pile over and add up the numbers.
example;
str->ace,6,2=9
dex->3,5,6 =14
con->ace,6,3=10
int->3,4,2 =9
wis->5,5,6 =16
chr->4,4,5 =13
-Now you should choose race/class,
in this case let's make a human "caster" cleric with Selective Channel.
-Now you add the ace(1) to 1 stat and the four(max 18) to another stat,
in this case I will add 4 to chr and 1 to wis:
str->ace,6,2=9
dex->3,5,6 =14
con->ace,6,3=10
int->3,4,2 =9
wis->5,5,6 =16+1=17
chr->4,4,5 =13+4=17
-Now you can switch any 2 stats,
in this case I will switch con<->dex:
str->ace,6,2=9
dex-> =10
con-> =14
int->3,4,2 =9
wis->5,5,6 =16+1=17
chr->4,4,5 =13+4=17
-Finally, you adjust for race;
in this case I will add 2 for being human to wis;
str->ace,6,2=9
dex-> =10
con-> =14
int->3,4,2 =9
wis->5,5,6 =16+1=17+2=19
chr->4,4,5 =13+4=17
If I had wanted to make a warrior/archer type with the same stats I would have; +4dex/+1chr/switch chr<>str.
str-> =13+1=14
dex->3,5,6 =14+4=18
con->ace,6,3=10
int->3,4,2 =9
wis->5,5,6 =16
chr-> =9
Wow I feel like the odd man out, though I get the benefits of Point Buy, but it seems silly to rely on Luck for every other aspect of the game and not when rolling the characters.
What my group does is this, we all sit down and roll out 4d6, drop lowest, reroll 1s 6 times. We figure out what our stat blocks look at, then we determine who had the best rolls at the table.
So say Jimmy rolled, 11, 15, 10, 18, 13, 14
But Bobby rolled 15, 16, 12, 16, 14, 18
One is clearly a better set then the other. Well we all use the better rolls. So we all take Bobby's stat array and affix it to our own characters. This means is someone rolls really well we all don't feel so left out. Also if someone rolls straight 8s (Happened once) we don't make them use a useless character.
Point Buy is unfair to classes that are MAD because you are forced to be absolutely abysmal in dump stats (Monk for example need Str, Dex, Con, and Wis as primary stats, and can dump Cha and Int) while only being Meh at best in the primary stats. While someone who is SAD like the Wizard can pour a big ol' 16+2(Racial) in Int and Meh in all others and still be fine the wizard doesn't care if his Str is 11 as wella s everything else. He is powerful where it matters for his character.
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What my group does is this, we all sit down and roll out 4d6, drop lowest, reroll 1s 6 times. We figure out what our stat blocks look at, then we determine who had the best rolls at the table.
So say Jimmy rolled, 11, 15, 10, 18, 13, 14
But Bobby rolled 15, 16, 12, 16, 14, 18
One is clearly a better set then the other. Well we all use the better rolls. So we all take Bobby's stat array and affix it to our own characters.
So everybody in your game get an equivalent of a 51 point buy? That's just insane. Even though Jimmy had decent and considerably better than average stats (equivalent 33 point buy).
Point Buy is unfair to classes that are MAD because you are forced to be absolutely abysmal in dump stats (Monk for example need Str, Dex, Con, and Wis as primary stats, and can dump Cha and Int) while only being Meh at best in the primary stats...
This is the opposite of what is true.
In reality, if I roll an abysmally low 5 (cuz hey, it happens) and am playing a wizard, I can reasonably put that crappy stat into Strength or maybe even Wisdom, since I don't need strength and I have a good Will save. But what am I going to do with a roll of 5 if I want to play a Cleric or a Rogue or a Ranger. Not everyone wants to play characters who are mentally or socially challenged. That seems neither classically heroic nor fun.
The fact remains that rolling for stats is more likely to preclude you from playing a class that you'd like, rather than helping. I can tell you, it's worked pretty much exactly like that since first addition, when character classes had required stats to play. "You want to play a Paladin? Sorry man, not with crap rolls like that."
Obviously the clever prince is a classic, but there's no shortage of idiot heroes.
Idiots are very capable of being fun to play as/with.
<clarification>
Cool! Thanks! :D
What my group does is this, we all sit down and roll out 4d6, drop lowest, reroll 1s 6 times. We figure out what our stat blocks look at, then we determine who had the best rolls at the table.
So say Jimmy rolled, 11, 15, 10, 18, 13, 14
But Bobby rolled 15, 16, 12, 16, 14, 18
One is clearly a better set then the other. Well we all use the better rolls. So we all take Bobby's stat array and affix it to our own characters.
So everybody in your game get an equivalent of a 51 point buy? That's just insane. Even though Jimmy had decent and considerably better than average stats (equivalent 33 point buy).
Point Buy is unfair to classes that are MAD because you are forced to be absolutely abysmal in dump stats (Monk for example need Str, Dex, Con, and Wis as primary stats, and can dump Cha and Int) while only being Meh at best in the primary stats...This is the opposite of what is true.
In reality, if I roll an abysmally low 5 (cuz hey, it happens) and am playing a wizard, I can reasonably put that crappy stat into Strength or maybe even Wisdom, since I don't need strength and I have a good Will save. But what am I going to do with a roll of 5 if I want to play a Cleric or a Rogue or a Ranger. Not everyone wants to play characters who are mentally or socially challenged. That seems neither classically heroic nor fun.
The fact remains that rolling for stats is more likely to preclude you from playing a class that you'd like, rather than helping. I can tell you, it's worked pretty much exactly like that since first addition, when character classes had required stats to play. "You want to play a Paladin? Sorry man, not with crap rolls like that."
If you are so worried about shitty rolls why nto play with straight 12s that would be utterly and without a doubt fair and balanced.
But what if jimmy rolls a bad to hit score and bobby rolls really high (on pure dice) thats not fair, so should Jimmy be able to use some buy method to be as equally good as bobby in a pure luck and chance setting? Dice are not always fair. You can roll straight 18s and still die in opening combat due to bad luck. Why pretend your not in a luck based game from the start?
Also when we roll really high, our NPCs and Mobs get higher stat arrays as well.
The benefits of point buy is that it lets me play any class I choose to and probably not suck depending on what PB the DM assigns.
The benefits of rolling stats are... tradition.