Hi all i know the norm now is to points buy your stats but i still feel rolling stats is best
Why you ask !
Well for one it prevents players useing a dump stat as you can't lower stats to raise others it also gives you something random in character gen you basicly get to pick everything else so its kind of like " this is what nature gave you make the best of it "
It also reduces the ability of players to min max for the same reason
But mainly because it makes you adapt when you can't control every part of the character as sometimes you just dont get what you want
Your thoughts please and keep it friendly
This topic comes up a lot, and it is a matter of preference. I like point buy. Even if I roll I am still putting the low score in the stat I dont need, and the high score in the stat I care about. I also dont have to worry about someone with very poor scores tagging along with someone that has extremely high scores. I rolled druid once with no score below 14's and 4 16's or better. The other guy had a martial character with nothing over 15 and the rest were 11's or worse. The results showed in the game, and he was not happy.
I did not min-man, and powergaming can be done no matter which method you use, it just may not be as effective if you roll poorly.
Many dont like "making the best of it". If I wanted to be the real life version of me I would not play the game, and many feel like it makes the game unfair.
If you are worrying about min-maxing then use a stat array that you feel comfortable with. 16, 14, 14, 12, 10, 9. That array is only an example.
PS: I generally roll very well for my stats, but I still feel bad for the people that don't.
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I love random character gen in most RPGs. My players tend to not take it well when one guy rolls low stats and another guy is super heroic though. Problem with PF/D&D it can make an unbalanced party. I am lazy and prefer to spend the time I am motivated on cool stories and less on encounter building. Now we are totally point buy and it works well for us. YMMV.
I want to just add that some folks put a tremendous amount of RP bank into ability stats. My group tends to separate our RP from the mechanics so point buy is not really an issue for us. A dump stat is not the end of the world. If someone dumps multiple stats they tend to die quickly in our games. That is incentive not to do it.
One tip for random char gen folks is looking at the ultimate campaign book. It has a lot of random tables for random char building. We plan to try it out next time we make characters.
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I MUCH prefer point buys. 20 point buy is standard for us though 15 or 25 could easily be acceptable. Given the choice, poin tbuy is always the way to go for us.
Having said that, I have encountered one (and only one) rolling method that I actually liked. Everyone started off with 10 in all of their stats and rolled 1d6 to add to each, then applied racial modifiers. It kept attributes from being too low and from being too high and made the racial modifiers count.
Averaged, a character would have a spread of 13, 13, 13, 14, 14, 14 which works out to a 24 point buy, but without racial bonuses an 18 to start (or a 10) is impossible. For some the spread was higher, for others it was lower but the swings weren't as high as in most rolled stat lines. That's probably the only 'rolled' attribute system I'd be willing to use.
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Until you roll a bunch of 6s and 7s and nothing above and 11 and play with someone that rolled a bunch of 18s with nothing below a 14.
As a GM, if you rolled a bunch of 6's and 7's, I'd have you roll again.
Out of interest, how many GM's would make someone stick with all poor rolls? In all likelihood, the player will suicide the PC a.s.a.p. so what would be the point?
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Until you roll a bunch of 6s and 7s and nothing above and 11 and play with someone that rolled a bunch of 18s with nothing below a 14.As a GM, if you rolled a bunch of 6's and 7's, I'd have you roll again.
Out of interest, how many GM's would make someone stick with all poor rolls? In all likelihood, the player will suicide the PC a.s.a.p. so what would be the point?
This is the issue I take with rolling stats. Often, so many fail safes are put into place it ends up being not random at all. If you don't use the fail safes the game can suck hard. That is another reason why I prefer point buy over rolling.
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Point buy is better. Rolling is unfair and leads to massive power disparity between characters.
The only way rolling prevents "dump stats" is if none of the rolls come out low. If they do, it can easily and often lead to MORE dumping of stats, as they can go below 7 and the player almost certainly didn't get an array he's that happy with, so any low scores definitely will get put into charisma or whatever.
Fun Fact: In D&D 3E, there was an explicit rule right at the start of the book that said if your rolls came out too low (if the sum of your modifiers was less than +1, or if you had no score above a 13) you can immediately reroll the entire set. Since this was a guideline for character creation, it wasn't included in the OGL (you need to actually crack open a Player's Handbook to find it), and thus...it seems PF did not carry over this extremely vital rule.
Of the two I prefer point buy. But in my games I (with the player) just assign ability scores to make sure a character concept works.
I don't like rolling/random. It may lead to character cycling, or ruin a great concept. And as far as what nature gives you: choose your gender and race(height and weight, birthplace, parents)... but you didn't work out, or improve your people skills, or study harder - because nature/magic/universe/"it's (not) what your character wanted."
To me, the game starts after char-gen, so getting stifled that early is not fun. AND - None of this goes for one-shots :)
I don't see dump-stating or minmaxing as big problems, as long as a player invests in his or her character. And getting to do the character you want helps with this, IMO.
Randomness is better for outcomes, less so for setups.
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Well for one it prevents players useing a dump stat
Not true at all. The player is still going to put his lowest roll in the least needed stat.
I always decide the concept I want to play, then build the character to suit. As such, I much prefer point buy as it gives me the ability to do precisely that. Frag, I recently had to do rolled stats and I wound up arbitrarily lowering some of them because they were just too high to fit my concept.
I also do not think that any aspect of character creation or advancement should be random. Random results are for actual gameplay. Character creation should be an exact science, so you get exactly what you want; otherwise, it becomes a game of 'how fast can I get this guy killed without looking like I'm doing it intentionally so I can make a guy who doesn't suck'?
You also don't have to worry about, as stated above, 'I didn't get over a 12' playing alongside 'I didn't get under a 14'. Point buy takes care of 'you can't get everything you want' because there are only so many points to spread around. A roller may well get everything he wants ... or he may get nothing he wants.
You can't cheat with Point Buy.
You can adjust how 'normal' vs 'cinematic' you want the characters by adjusting the points available. Dice are too unpredictable.
One bad roll should not penalize you for the entire length of your character's career. You have a bad night on attack rolls, you're just as likely to have a good night later. If you have bad night on stat rolls, you're hosed night after night after night.
Simply put, Point Buy is far more fair than rolling. I'm getting to the point where I would consider rolling stats to be a dealbreaker.
RE: The 'Rolls to low, try again' rule ... my opinion is, that if you're going to come up with lots of bizarre ways to come up with stats so that they aren't too low or too high ... why not just use point buy, which takes care of all that for you?
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I guess it also depends on what system you use for rolling i tend to go for the classic 4d6 drop the lowest but I've seen a couple of others used one i liked was 4d4+2 that gave some good rolls with most being between 9-14 so very payable
But another i liked was 3d6 in order 3 times this left you with three sets of stat that where already assigned to an ability you could then choose two stats from each set lead to some interesting trade offs as the odds of rolling 3 duff stats was quite low
And to clear something up when i say dump stat i mean a stat that's lowered as much as possible to pump there other stats
We've all seem it the barbarian with 7 int and charisma but is still played just as smart andarctulate as the party's face
And to clear something up when i say dump stat i mean a stat that's lowered as much as possible to pump there other stats
We've all seem it the barbarian with 7 int and charisma but is still played just as smart andarctulate as the party's face
And the barbarian with 7 INT and CHA from being rolled can do the exact same thing. Unrelated non-issue.
And to clear something up when i say dump stat i mean a stat that's lowered as much as possible to pump there other stats
We've all seem it the barbarian with 7 int and charisma but is still played just as smart andarctulate as the party's face
...I haven't. I should know, most of my characters have a charisma penalty. I roleplay them appropriately. Getting to hurl insults and have no filter between brain and mouth is fun. It's a feature of low charisma to me, not a bug! :)
Also, what Zhayne said.
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Why not pick the best of both worlds?
(Or maybe worst? Something I made up on a lark a while back :P)
ROLLING POINT BUY
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The basic premise is that each roll you make is dependent on how many points you have remaining. What your roll is determines if it removes or adds points from your remaining points. The odds on the roll is intended to include the entire range of stats in point buy (7 to 18, etc), up to how high your remaining points would allow.
Chart: What to Roll
17+ points (7-18): 1d12 + 6 (avg 12.5)
13-16 points (7-17): 2d6 + 5 (avg 12)
10-12 points (7-16): 3d4 + 4 (avg 11.5)
7-9 points (7-15): 4d3 + 3 (avg 11)
5-6 points (7-14): 1d8 + 6 (avg 10.5)
3-4 points (7-13): 2d4 + 5 (avg 10)
2 points (7-12): 1d6 + 6 (avg 9.5)
1 point (7-11): 2d3 + 5 (avg 9)
0 points (7-10): 1d4 + 6 (avg 8.5)
If you finish with points leftover, you may add them to whatever stats you rolled to increase them (point buy style).
The result is that you gain stats you didn't completely plan out (might not get that 18, etc), but it's entirely balanced next to normal point buy.
*Note: I'd probably go with a rule that if you got nothing but 7s and a ton of points to spend, to just reroll. But the odds of that are pretty slim. Maybe something like "Reroll if you have more than 15 points leftover", etc.
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Enjoy rolling those d3s! ;)
This is entirely unused so far. No idea how players or DMs would enjoy it in practice, heh.
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Pathfinder uses 6+2d6 as a reccomendation--> average 13
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I prefer a point buy or a standard array... I also abhor rolling for hitpoints. And here's why:
Dice are used as random number generators that help to adjudicate success and failure using probabilities that can be modified by situations, stats, abilities, etc. They are great for that.
Dice should not be used to determine permanent aspects of a character. One or two bad dice rolls should not mess up your character for the rest of its career. They can mess you up in combat or in social interaction.. there are plenty of places for dice to be the vicious backstabbing devils that they are. Character generation should't be one of them.
Truly I cannot think of a single reason to roll for stats. A party will never be balanced. Someone will ALWAYS get the best rolls and someone will ALWAYS get the worst.
I can, however, commiserate with the distaste for Min-Maxing point buys. And the best solution to that is to use a standard array, or even better, to create two or three different standard arrays using the point buy rules as a GM. This stops anyone from power-gaming their stats egregiously.
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I like the point buy as well, but I also came up with a solution I like for rolling.
If the group decides they want to roll stats, we let everyone roll with whatever method we are using, and then once everyone has rolled up stats, we decide on which 1 set of stats we all will use. This lets everyone roll, but also doesn't end up with 1 person having amazing stats and one person having low stats. Everyone gets the same array, and then applies their own racial modifiers and such.
If the group decides they want to roll stats, we let everyone roll with whatever method we are using, and then once everyone has rolled up stats, we decide on which 1 set of stats we all will use. This lets everyone roll, but also doesn't end up with 1 person having amazing stats and one person having low stats. Everyone gets the same array, and then applies their own racial modifiers and such.
I like that a lot actually. If I ever get around to DMing again I think I'm going to use that.
For games, I prefer rolling. It just seems more organic than point buy. I willing admit this is personal bias because rolling for stats was the way I was raised! I do use point buy when theorycrafting characters as I kind of feel silly sitting alone rolling dice by myself. Point buy just seems to lead to generic scores (really I'm just bad with point buy)
I've honestly never put any thought into another PC being better than mine. My group has never been that competitive with each other. (Of course it probably helps I can build a better character than my friends regardless of my ability scores!)
I've honestly never put any thought into another PC being better than mine. My group has never been that competitive with each other. (Of course it probably helps I can build a better character than my friends regardless of my ability scores!)
I don't really see wanting your guy to be on par with your friend's as being competitive per se. It's more like people can get frustrated when it seems like everyone else just does what you do but better in every way because they feel like they aren't needed. Like you, this rarely happens to me because I'm the filthy degenerate (and unrepentant) minmaxer of the group, but I've seen it happen quite a bit with people who don't really understand the system.
For games, I prefer rolling. It just seems more organic than point buy. I willing admit this is personal bias because rolling for stats was the way I was raised! I do use point buy when theorycrafting characters as I kind of feel silly sitting alone rolling dice by myself. Point buy just seems to lead to generic scores (really I'm just bad with point buy)
I've honestly never put any thought into another PC being better than mine. My group has never been that competitive with each other. (Of course it probably helps I can build a better character than my friends regardless of my ability scores!)
Roll a 1 for hitpoints four levels in a row with a Fighter. Trust me it sucks. Its not about being competitive with other PCs... its being able to contribute in the way that you are expected to for your level against monsters and NPCs.
Gimped ability and hitpoint rolls can easily drop your effectiveness backward by a few levels... and this is just frustrating. You can quickly become dead weight.
For games, I prefer rolling. It just seems more organic than point buy. I willing admit this is personal bias because rolling for stats was the way I was raised! I do use point buy when theorycrafting characters as I kind of feel silly sitting alone rolling dice by myself. Point buy just seems to lead to generic scores (really I'm just bad with point buy)
I've honestly never put any thought into another PC being better than mine. My group has never been that competitive with each other. (Of course it probably helps I can build a better character than my friends regardless of my ability scores!)Roll a 1 for hitpoints four levels in a row with a Fighter. Trust me it sucks. Its not about being competitive with other PCs... its being able to contribute in the way that you are expected to for your level against monsters and NPCs.
Gimped ability and hitpoint rolls can easily drop your effectiveness backward by a few levels... and this is just frustrating. You can quickly become dead weight.
Well we do roll for hit points (although I didn't mention that) but we roll twice, take the highest , reroll doubles. So it would be a minimum of 2 hp (plus Con mod) a level. And our gaming group really is more of a social occasion. We would never consider a friend "dead weight."
I've honestly never put any thought into another PC being better than mine. My group has never been that competitive with each other. (Of course it probably helps I can build a better character than my friends regardless of my ability scores!)I don't really see wanting your guy to be on par with your friend's as being competitive per se. It's more like people can get frustrated when it seems like everyone else just does what you do but better in every way because they feel like they aren't needed...
This.. At the very least people like to know they are pulling their weight most of the time, but if the characters are too far apart one player can easily feel like they wont matter.
Whichever one you find more fun.
Yeah, like that will ever fly...
Okay then.
Neither one is better than the other.
Well now you're just being pessimistic.
Hi all i know the norm now is to points buy your stats but i still feel rolling stats is best
Why you ask !
Well for one it prevents players useing a dump stat as you can't lower stats to raise others it also gives you something random in character gen you basicly get to pick everything else so its kind of like " this is what nature gave you make the best of it "
It also reduces the ability of players to min max for the same reason
But mainly because it makes you adapt when you can't control every part of the character as sometimes you just dont get what you want
Your thoughts please and keep it friendly
I prefer rolling, but I've come to the view that Pathfinder isn't the best game for it since the stats have such extreme variations in the bonuses they give.
One solution for those who don't like inequality between players is for everyone to roll six stats and then be able to choose from the whole set of arrays. Maybe everyone will pick "the best" array, but different classes have different needs, so that isn't necessarily the case.
Okay then.
Neither one is better than the other.
Rolling is better if you like random elements in your character generation. Point buy is better if you like balance between the players.
And to clear something up when i say dump stat i mean a stat that's lowered as much as possible to pump there other stats
We've all seem it the barbarian with 7 int and charisma but is still played just as smart andarctulate as the party's face
Do you prefer that the players roll stats in order, or roll 6 stats and then assign them to the attribute they want?
If you prefer the first option, then nothing really compares to that. If you prefer the second, then that's essentially like giving everyone an array, except that the array is randomized. In which case, for many of the reasons stated above, your gaming experience as a group may be harmed by all the party members not starting with equal footing, something which lasts for the duration of the campaign.
One very straightforward way of giving everyone the same chance is to give the same array for everyone to allocate. But, forcing every class into an array may not benefit all classes equally.
Therefore, if your main gripe is "minmaxing", one thing my DM has done is just not allow scores to be min/max, like lowest stat 8, or 10, and point buy as normal within that restriction. You could even limit highest stat 16 as well.
I'm not against "dumping stats" but there is a difference between rolling a low stat and purposely lowering a stat for a gain elsewhere.
Back in the days I swear on the 4d6 drop lowest methode.
But as we startet our first AP I saw that this creates very powerfull characters (related to the AP difficulty).
At the next AP we used 20 Points Buy and I have to say since then we only use Points buy.
It gives you more freedom over your character creation and your start stats/decision are more important.
Also this means that not every warrior runs around with Str 18 etc.
Another benefit is that it's easier for the DM to balance the encounters/adventures.
Last but not least it didn't happen that one player of the group rolls 18/18/18/17/16/15/ and another 14/12/10/and less then 10 (yes this really happened in on of my rounds!)
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For me, it depends on the class I am going to play. For instance, in a rolling game, I might decide to play a Monk or Cleric , because those classes are relatively MAD (Though, cleric is the least MAD). In a Point Buy, I would be more inclined to play a MoMS/Brawler or Life Oracle to get the same concept, with less need for so many ability scores. I think they are both great ways of assigning stats, as long as for rolling you A.)don't have to choose what you want to play before you roll, and B.)Roll stats then decide what abilities to place them in. If you roll stats in order and get an 8 con, things are bad. If you have to pick a class and decide you are playing a monk, then you roll poorly, you now have to be an ineffective monk.
Point 100% of the way. For classes like monks and such, the random dice roll just seems to always screw me over ( get bad luck with stat rolling)
Roll a 1 for hitpoints four levels in a row with a Fighter. Trust me it sucks. Its not about being competitive with other PCs... its being able to contribute in the way that you are expected to for your level against monsters and NPCs.
Gimped ability and hitpoint rolls can easily drop your effectiveness backward by a few levels... and this is just frustrating. You can quickly become dead weight.
I had this happen with a 2nd edition paladin once. I had 1 more hp than the parties wizard. Talk about a glass jaw.
If the group decides they want to roll stats, we let everyone roll with whatever method we are using, and then once everyone has rolled up stats, we decide on which 1 set of stats we all will use. This lets everyone roll, but also doesn't end up with 1 person having amazing stats and one person having low stats. Everyone gets the same array, and then applies their own racial modifiers and such.
The problem with this is the same as with any rolling, odds are 1 person will get lucky and roll an AWESOME set of stats. Now everyone will get them.
There are some ways to combine the randomness of rolling with the fairness of point buy. Here are some previous threads to look at;
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2na5r?PCs-using-different-ability-score-generat ion#30
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nj6v?How-do-you-roll-stats-for-new-characters# 8
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pj2l?Character-Generation-Methods#19
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pr5y?Suggestions-for-alternative-attribute-gen eration#10
The method we currently use, take cards (12 or 18 cards, adding up to whatever power level the DM wants).
1- randomly divide cards between 6 stats, in order
2- add up each stat
3- add 1 to a stat and 4 (max 18)to another stat
3.5(optional) switch any 2 stats
4- adjust for race
The 1 is to make an odd stat even.
The 4 can make a moderate stat good (or a poor stat moderate), if you really want to play a specific class/concept. This gets you the random/organic-ness of rolling, but keeps the fairness(all characters are around the same power) of point buy (without the cookie cutter sameness).
I've always preferred point buy, but most other folks I play with prefer rolling. I've seen many DMs use a rolling method that tends to produce overpowered PCs and then complain about the overpowered PCs. We're going through one of those campaigns right now, actually. No amount of logic is likely to sway the proponents of rolling though.
Maybe they crave the risk factor that doesn't exist in their daily lives. Maybe they also like watching the other guy flounder and fail. It seems like most of them enjoy the idea that they might end up with a PC with a comically low score, especially in Intelligence or Charisma. Some of them seem to be looking for guidance from the dice on what sort of PC to create and what that PC's personality might be like.
Actually, most folks in my primary group have embraced the old school concept of rolling ability scores in order. This eliminates dump stats since you get no choice where a particular score goes and have to build the PC the dice tell you to build. As a compromise for the upcoming game she's GMing, my girlfriend had us roll 3d6 in order and then use 12 point buy to adjust the resulting scores. We've got a Druid with 4 Int, some folks with Str below 10, and one guy who I think bought his Con of 3 up to a 7 or so. Most of the players seem borderline ecstatic about this system.
As an aside, the same group also decided that Small humanoids should roll 2d4 instead of 3d4 for the length of a certain body part. When somebody rolled a 2 the group erupted in absolute jubilation. Most of the group is married men aged in their mid-twenties to early forties. Yeah, this is how I spend my Wednesday nights! ;)
It depends on what you want out of character generation.
If you want balance between the PCs and the ability to model a concept as closely as possible (within the limits of the points available), then point buy is "better." Point buy usually makes it easier for a GM to develop a campaign (using lower point buys for "gritty"/horror and higher point buys for "heroic"/high-fantasy) and/or gauge encounter difficulty (since all PCs are roughly on the same base power curve).
If you want greater variation between the PCs and less accurate modeling of concepts (or, perhaps, inspiration for a concept: "I could'a been a wizard, but flunked the entrance exam at the University; now, I just call on my eidolon to beat up those damn wiz-nerds"), then rolling is "better." Rolling can, however, pose difficulties for campaigns (if the PCs have "god stats" in a "gritty"/horror setting that are substantially higher than even a 25-point buy BBEG) and/or gauging encounters ("god stat" PCs can easily defeat opponents that can kill the rest of the party with lower ability scores).
As others have stated, no matter which method you use (dice pools, rolling for each score, arrays, point-buy, etc.), players will put high numbers in "important" ability scores and low numbers in "dump stats" if they're allowed to. Unfortunately, most of the "in order" methods can really hose players and parties at times ("What? No one rolled above 10 in Con, Int, Wis, or Cha?"), unless there are "adjustments" that normally end up skewing toward similar results as point buy or "arrange as desired" methods. Maybe I'm a bit biased, but having grown up with 1st Ed AD&D (where the default was 3d6 in order, no adjustments other than race - which you chose before you rolled, if you actually followed the rules - and age), the ability to play the actual concept in your head instead of trying to figure out how to play some random guy/gal is a feature, not a bug.
Personally, I prefer point buy most of the time. Then again, I usually have a concept (or two, or three) in mind and not just a hyper-optimized "build" to achieve the biggest bonuses (yes, I optimize, but I prefer to do one thing well and several things at least semi-decently instead of just one thing superbly and everything else poorly); point buy allows the most flexibility for developing the character to match a given concept. Occasionally, I'll use rolling. I always liked the 3.x "organic" method (roll 4d6/drop 1 in order, re-roll one score, swap one pair of scores if desired) as a decent mix of randomness and flexibility; you can generally achieve something close to the concept in your head, but possibly end up with an unexpected benefit and/or flaw.
I like point buy better. When I roll it seems like I am lucky to get a 16 on one stat and most of them are in the 10ish range. I have used automated rollers and it seems to take a lot of runs before anything with even an 18 pops up. Also, there is always someone in the group that has something that looks like 18,18,16,14,14,10 who just rolled "really lucky." Point buy seems much more balanced. I have never been able to fall in love with a rolled character, because I can never get over their stats.
I have never been able to fall in love with a rolled character, because I can never get over their stats.
Same here. I'm more invested in a character I'm building to my specifications than 'okay, here's a random pile of stuff'.
I had a 2nd ed. D&D character that rolled stats in order and ended up with an 18(98) strength.... I loved that character
(or, perhaps, inspiration for a concept: "I could'a been a wizard, but flunked the entrance exam at the University; now, I just call on my eidolon to beat up those damn wiz-nerds"), then rolling is "better."
You can do that concept just as easily with point buy.
I absolutely loathe point buy. It encourages stat dumping and rewards SAD classes which most people on these boards swear against. rolling stats can end up with varied results unless you really fiddle with the rolling system, I have a few times to see what kind of results I get.
My game that I am currently running we used 2d6 + 6 which I am happy with the results of. I have considered 2d4 +10, or 3d4 + 6 as well, but those didn't really yield as favorable of results. 2d4 + 10 makes the minimum stat 12, which players love, but DMs hate, 3d4 + 6 makes the minimum stat 9, which players and DMs can both agree is a good bottom, but it makes getting 17s and 18s a lot more difficult, but I feel it is more 'balanced' in results than 2d6 + 6.
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I tried using the grid method for my latest game, and all that ended up happening was the players dropped the three lowest stats and used the six high ones. I think after this game I'm going to stick to point buy. You can get a look at some of the results here. I need to get on my players about updating those things.
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I absolutely loathe rolling for stats.
As several people mentioned upthread, many times rerolls are demanded or offered, and iterations just happen, leading to similar results of point-buying. I started RPG's back in the dawn of them, and one of the best improvements in games, in my opinion, is point buys.
With it, you can craft the character you imagine, to the limits of the buy you are given. With dice, you might end up playing something completely different. I've rolled up wizards with intelligence below 5, leading to experience point penalties in early versions of D&D. Experience point penalties! Because I chose what to make, and then rolled badly. Whereas, with a point buy, I can make a marginally smart dude with abilities that round him out, or a genius with noodle arms and introversion that won't quit.
One inequity with stat arrays is the MAD/SAD difference in classes, and the point buy can help to balance that out. It is really expensive to get an 18 in Pathfinder, but a string of 14's is easy to do.
I have a friend who has phenomenal dice luck. Mythic dice luck. His rolled characters almost always outshine anyone else's. Players get disgruntled and show up less when outshined, sometimes even quitting a game.
Huzzah, for point buy!
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I'm really thinking that from now on I'll just dispense with stat generation methods.
The players and I will just decide what stats the characters have.
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One inequity with stat arrays is the MAD/SAD difference in classes, and the point buy can help to balance that out. It is really expensive to get an 18 in Pathfinder, but a string of 14's is easy to do.
I feel this is exactly where point buy fails. Knowing you only need one stat to be good makes it so much easier to only get that one good stat.
Part of the reason people like point buy is because they can control the highest and lowest scores without having to roll again for a shotty roll.I really like 3d4+6 because of the minimum it sets coupled with the fact that you get about the same amount of variance that you get with 3d6, but at the same time it is still possible to roll up a paladin with an 18 STR and CHA, or a monk with 18 DEX and WIS, under the same system that the wizard was under to get the 18 INT.
If I were to endorse a point buy system one of two things I feel need to happen: either
a) Point allotment is determined by class, in the same way that starting gold, starting age, and many other mechanics are.
b) The point system is changed to allow players to easily optimize two stats instead of one, because I feel the game would end up in a better place if it was easier to make a decent rogue/monk/paladin, even if it meant that we have to deal with a wizard having a good DEX in addition to his INT.
With it, you can craft the character you imagine, to the limits of the buy you are given. With dice, you might end up playing something completely different. I've rolled up wizards with intelligence below 5, leading to experience point penalties in early versions of D&D. Experience point penalties! Because I chose what to make, and then rolled badly. Whereas, with a point buy, I can make a marginally smart dude with abilities that round him out, or a genius with noodle arms and introversion that won't quit.
We've always rolled stats and then decided what to play. Probably because it avoids that problem. We also assign the rolled numbers to the stats we want, not in order. (Although we did 3d6 in order once and the game was surprisingly fun.)