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I'm beginning to think that John John feels that there are no fun monsters for their CR. He's listed damn near the entire Bestiary.
Banshee. The entire group has to make a DC 23 Fortitude save or take 140 damage. It can then retreat into the walls and do it again a minute later. As a CR 13 monster, you could meet it at, say, level 11. If you're playing as a Level 11 Wizard, you'd need to have Con of around 24 to be able to survive failing your save. With a regular Con, you'd have around a 50% chance of passing the save each time.
Low-CR fine and diminutive swarms are HORRIBLY nasty when you're...
A) a party with mostly martial focus, or...
B) a party with casters that focus on using mind-affecting spells like Sleep and Color Spray.
Suddenly you wish you had Burning Hands.
Huh, I've always understood the wail operating on the closest target first, up to a max of 10 per caster level, not 10 per caster level to every target...
Oddly enough, the banshee's wail doesn't operate the same as wail of the banshee. It just hits everyone within 40 ft for 140 damage.
Looking at the text of the spell though, I think it is supposed to do 10 per caster level to every target, up to caster level worth of targets. Otherwise it is worded a bit too strangely to make sense - it needs a clarification like circle of death. It would also be weaker than circle of death if it had the 200HP cap, which seems unintuitive.
Huh, I've always understood the wail operating on the closest target first, up to a max of 10 per caster level, not 10 per caster level to every target...Oddly enough, the banshee's wail doesn't operate the same as wail of the banshee. It just hits everyone within 40 ft for 140 damage.
Looking at the text of the spell though, I think it is supposed to do 10 per caster level to every target, up to caster level worth of targets. Otherwise it is worded a bit too strangely to make sense - it needs a clarification like circle of death. It would also be weaker than circle of death if it had the 200HP cap, which seems unintuitive.
Now, see, I'd always read it the same way as TOZ, but a re-read (specifically the Target line combined with the spell's text) does indeed suggest damage as 10 per caster level to 1 per level targets in range, going from closest to farthest.
Wow, that spell just got a lot better.
I'm beginning to think that John John feels that there are no fun monsters for their CR. He's listed damn near the entire Bestiary.
I have said I don't consider them unfun for their cr (just tough).
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Low-CR fine and diminutive swarms are HORRIBLY nasty when you're...
A) a party with mostly martial focus, or...
B) a party with casters that focus on using mind-affecting spells like Sleep and Color Spray.Suddenly you wish you had Burning Hands.
Color Spray works on swarms. They have low will saves, so it generally gives the group enough time to poke it to death with torches.
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Color Spray works on swarms. They have low will saves, so it generally gives the group enough time to poke it to death with torches.Low-CR fine and diminutive swarms are HORRIBLY nasty when you're...
A) a party with mostly martial focus, or...
B) a party with casters that focus on using mind-affecting spells like Sleep and Color Spray.Suddenly you wish you had Burning Hands.
In theory yes, but as a practical matter, no. Almost all swarms - especially low-CR swarms - are made of vermin, which are immune to color spray because they're mindless, so the practical result is the same.
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Huh, I've always understood the wail operating on the closest target first, up to a max of 10 per caster level, not 10 per caster level to every target...Oddly enough, the banshee's wail doesn't operate the same as wail of the banshee. It just hits everyone within 40 ft for 140 damage.
I kind of figured that "Those that fail take 140 points of damage (as if affected by a CL 14 wail of the banshee)." meant that it DID function like the spell.
Amusingly enough, the only time I've seen this spell in action was when Liz Courts was running her Legacy of Fire one-shot last PaizoCon. :)
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.most swarms are mindless
The vermin ones - yes. Many others (rats/bats/monkeys) are not.
Edit: Versus vermin swarms - just use Silent Image to trap them in a 'box' with a hole in the top just big enough to drop torches through. Patterns don't work on the mindless creatures - but figments do.
I like the idea of Silent Image vs. swarm, but both spiders and centipedes have tremorsense, so I don't know it it'll really work all that well.
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.most swarms are mindless
The vermin ones - yes. Many others (rats/bats/monkeys) are not.
Edit: Versus vermin swarms - just use Silent Image to trap them in a 'box' with a hole in the top just big enough to drop torches through. Patterns don't work on the mindless creatures - but figments do.
Well, then the swarm tries to climb the walls to exit via the hole on the top... and passes right through the image.
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I like the idea of Silent Image vs. swarm, but both spiders and centipedes have tremorsense, so I don't know it it'll really work all that well..most swarms are mindless
The vermin ones - yes. Many others (rats/bats/monkeys) are not.
Edit: Versus vermin swarms - just use Silent Image to trap them in a 'box' with a hole in the top just big enough to drop torches through. Patterns don't work on the mindless creatures - but figments do.
I'm not sure if all GMs would let it fly - but if your character knew of the tremorsense - just make the box a milimeter or so off of the ground. (or however close to make sure that the spiders etc can't slip through)
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Well, then the swarm tries to climb the walls to exit via the hole on the top... and passes right through the image.Only if they pass their save. Though they would get said save each turn.
Failing their save wouldn't keep them from falling through the wall when they tried to climb up it. Figments don't work that way.
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Failing their save wouldn't keep them from falling through the wall when they tried to climb up it. Figments don't work that way.Well, then the swarm tries to climb the walls to exit via the hole on the top... and passes right through the image.Only if they pass their save. Though they would get said save each turn.
Why would they fall through it? It's not paper thin. They'd just fall back down to the ground and get their save.
Touching a figment doesn't let you ignore it. That's what interacting is - and interacting is what gets you your save.
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Failing their save wouldn't keep them from falling through the wall when they tried to climb up it. Figments don't work that way.Well, then the swarm tries to climb the walls to exit via the hole on the top... and passes right through the image.Only if they pass their save. Though they would get said save each turn.Why would they fall through it? It's not paper thin. They'd just fall back down to the ground and get their save.
Touching a figment doesn't let you ignore it. That's what interacting is - and interacting is what gets you your save.
Silent image doesn't do tactile illusions. If you touch a silent image stone wall, you don't feel stone, in any circumstance. The result of swinging a hammer at a silent image stone wall is the hammer passing right through it, thus providing proof that the illusion is not real.
This probably also deserves it's own (dead horse) thread, because we're derailing this one again.
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Failing their save wouldn't keep them from falling through the wall when they tried to climb up it. Figments don't work that way.Well, then the swarm tries to climb the walls to exit via the hole on the top... and passes right through the image.Only if they pass their save. Though they would get said save each turn.Why would they fall through it? It's not paper thin. They'd just fall back down to the ground and get their save.
Touching a figment doesn't let you ignore it. That's what interacting is - and interacting is what gets you your save.
Silent image doesn't do tactile illusions. If you touch a silent image stone wall, you don't feel stone, in any circumstance. The result of swinging a hammer at a silent image stone wall is the hammer passing right through it, thus providing proof that the illusion is not real.
This probably also deserves it's own (dead horse) thread, because we're derailing this one again.
No, unless you make your new save for interacting: you think you feel stone. That was why they have saves in illusionary spells like Silent Image.
No, swinging the hammer and not hearing anything provides proof. Remember Silent Image can't mimic sounds.|
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Failing their save wouldn't keep them from falling through the wall when they tried to climb up it. Figments don't work that way.Well, then the swarm tries to climb the walls to exit via the hole on the top... and passes right through the image.Only if they pass their save. Though they would get said save each turn.Why would they fall through it? It's not paper thin. They'd just fall back down to the ground and get their save.
Touching a figment doesn't let you ignore it. That's what interacting is - and interacting is what gets you your save.
Silent image doesn't do tactile illusions. If you touch a silent image stone wall, you don't feel stone, in any circumstance. The result of swinging a hammer at a silent image stone wall is the hammer passing right through it, thus providing proof that the illusion is not real.
This probably also deserves it's own (dead horse) thread, because we're derailing this one again.
No, unless you make your new save for interacting: you think you feel stone. That was why they have saves in illusionary spells like Silent Image.
No, swinging the hammer and not hearing anything provides proof. Remember Silent Image can't mimic sounds.
Figment spells aren't mind-affecting. They can't make you think anything.
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Figment spells aren't mind-affecting. They can't make you think anything.
They make you think something is there which isn't. The illusion rules specifically call out interacting as giving you a save. If any interaction was proof - why would they even mention the save?
Besides - "This wall doesn't act like a normal wall" is hardly proof that it doesn't exist at all considering all of the crazy magic in Pathfinder.
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actually attacking the wall with a hammer, would be an attack vs something low as ac 8ish, depending on size, and a hit would cause the illusion to fail.
Why? How would you know it's not a wall that only stops living things? Or hammers in particular aren't stopped by this magical wall?
Things in Pathfinder be crazy!
Also - if you're smart - vs people don't just make it a wall - make it a spiked wall where the spikes appear to be dripping with poison. No one wants to touch that! If you want to spend a Minor Image - make it a wall of crackling fire.
(And as I already said - to beat tremorsense it would need to be a fraction of a milimeter off of the ground. Tremorsense only works vs things actually touching the ground. It would fail entirely vs blindsight.)
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Failing their save wouldn't keep them from falling through the wall when they tried to climb up it. Figments don't work that way.Well, then the swarm tries to climb the walls to exit via the hole on the top... and passes right through the image.Only if they pass their save. Though they would get said save each turn.Why would they fall through it? It's not paper thin. They'd just fall back down to the ground and get their save.
Touching a figment doesn't let you ignore it. That's what interacting is - and interacting is what gets you your save.
Because they won't fall straight down. They'll lift part of their body up and try to put weight on it, and when the illusion fails to support that weight, they'll fall forward, into the "wall." At which point the illusion has been breached.
Figment spells aren't mind-affecting. They can't make you think anything.They make you think something is there which isn't. The illusion rules specifically call out interacting as giving you a save. If any interaction was proof - why would they even mention the save?
Besides - "This wall doesn't act like a normal wall" is hardly proof that it doesn't exist at all considering all of the crazy magic in Pathfinder.
A successful save means you see through the illusion and it then appears as only a translucent outline.
A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline.
A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. A character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.
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A successful save means you see through the illusion and it then appears as only a translucent outline.Figment spells aren't mind-affecting. They can't make you think anything.They make you think something is there which isn't. The illusion rules specifically call out interacting as giving you a save. If any interaction was proof - why would they even mention the save?
Besides - "This wall doesn't act like a normal wall" is hardly proof that it doesn't exist at all considering all of the crazy magic in Pathfinder.
Right - but you have to make that saving throw. You don't get to automatically know a silent image is fake by touching it. You get a saving throw.
I was just stating that touching it doesn't qualify as 'proof' - which allows you to beat an illusion with no saving throw.
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actually attacking the wall with a hammer, would be an attack vs something low as ac 8ish, depending on size, and a hit would cause the illusion to fail.Why? How would you know it's not a wall that only stops living things? Or hammers in particular aren't stopped by this magical wall?
Things in Pathfinder be crazy!
"A character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw."
Effect visual figment that cannot extend beyond four 10-ft. cubes + one 10-ft. cube/level (S)
....
This spell creates the visual illusion of an object, creature, or force, as visualized by you. The illusion does not create sound, smell, texture, or temperature. You can move the image within the limits of the size of the effect.
The spell text clearly states that the illusion is visual only. A wall of an illusion wouldn't stop someone from passing through any more than an illusionary fire would feel hot and crackle.
I would also think that being able to put one's hand clear through a wall with no resistance would be conclusive proof that the wall is, in fact, not actually a wall. If that is not proof, then I don't think anything reasonable could be considered "proof" for the purpose of that clause under the illusion rules (making it more or less a waste of ink, which would almost certainly not be RAI).
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I would also think that being able to put one's hand clear through a wall with no resistance would be conclusive proof that the wall is, in fact, not actually a wall. If that is not proof, then I don't think anything reasonable could be considered "proof" for the purpose of that clause under the illusion rules (making it more or less a waste of ink, which would almost certainly not be RAI).
Then what is 'interacting' with an illusion to get a saving throw?
Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.
There are things that would qualify as proof. But they'd have to go much further in Pathfinder than IRL. It'd come up far more often for an illusion of a specific thing/person than of something as generic and potentially magically different as a wall.
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Then what is 'interacting' with an illusion to get a saving throw?
Searching an illusion of a blank wall that is hiding a door. Your hand can't go through it, so you still have to make the saving throw.
Falling through an illusionary wall counts as proof in my games. Talk to your GM about what counts in his game.
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Then what is 'interacting' with an illusion to get a saving throw?Searching an illusion of a blank wall that is hiding a door. Your hand can't go through it, so you still have to make the saving throw.
By your logic (not mine) - wouldn't feeling the door count as proof? Is it a matter of degrees?
Edit: Besides - that example can't even be done.
Figment: A figment spell creates a false sensation. Those who perceive the figment perceive the same thing, not their own slightly different versions of the figment. It is not a personalized mental impression. Figments cannot make something seem to be something else. A figment that includes audible effects cannot duplicate intelligible speech unless the spell description specifically says it can. If intelligible speech is possible, it must be in a language you can speak. If you try to duplicate a language you cannot speak, the figment produces gibberish. Likewise, you cannot make a visual copy of something unless you know what it looks like (or copy another sense exactly unless you have experienced it).
You can't make a door seem to be a wall with a figment - and I can't think of any glamers that would work anyway. So again - any figment which is allowed would - by your logic - be proven away as soon as it's interacted with.
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I would also think that being able to put one's hand clear through a wall with no resistance would be conclusive proof that the wall is, in fact, not actually a wall. If that is not proof, then I don't think anything reasonable could be considered "proof" for the purpose of that clause under the illusion rules (making it more or less a waste of ink, which would almost certainly not be RAI).Then what is 'interacting' with an illusion to get a saving throw?
Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.There are things that would qualify as proof. But they'd have to go much further in Pathfinder than IRL. It'd come up far more often for an illusion of a specific thing/person than of something as generic and potentially magically different as a wall.
Really, this is besides the point. Regardless of whether or not the illusion turns transparent, the creature will have noticed that it can pass through the wall without any ill effect.
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Really, this is besides the point. Regardless of whether or not the illusion turns transparent, the creature will have noticed that it can pass through the wall without any ill effect.
Except that it wouldn't appear to pass through to them - because it believes the illusion - assuming it failed its save. (And how often do you bash at walls with your face to check if they're real anyway?)
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Really, this is besides the point. Regardless of whether or not the illusion turns transparent, the creature will have noticed that it can pass through the wall without any ill effect.Except that it wouldn't pass through - because it believes the illusion - assuming it failed its save. (And how often do you bash at walls with your face to check if they're real anyway?)
Silent image only provides visual feedback. The spell description specifically states that it does not create texture. It is not mind affecting; it cannot force your character to behave in a certain way. The player still has full control over his character's mental faculties. If you try and climb a silent image wall, the spell does not force you to believe that you are climbing it; your hands and feet will pass through it as you grab for hand- and footholds. If you don't consider this proof that the illusion is not real, then fine. It still cannot stop the hands and feet from passing through the illusion and providing the character this information, which he may or may not act on.
I would also think that being able to put one's hand clear through a wall with no resistance would be conclusive proof that the wall is, in fact, not actually a wall. If that is not proof, then I don't think anything reasonable could be considered "proof" for the purpose of that clause under the illusion rules (making it more or less a waste of ink, which would almost certainly not be RAI).Then what is 'interacting' with an illusion to get a saving throw?
Touching the illusion. Something you can actually do for certain spells.
Also, doing something like putting one's hand into an illusionary fire (that includes a thermal illusion) would probably qualify as interaction.
QUOTE=SRD]Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.There are things that would qualify as proof. But they'd have to go much further in Pathfinder than IRL. It'd come up far more often for an illusion of a specific thing/person than of something as generic and potentially magically different as a wall.
What WOULD qualify as proof. In pathfinder, it is entirely possible that the memory you have of a split second ago was given to you by the person in the corner that can cast modify memory and improved invisibility. Being able to say 100% that something is definitely not real cannot happen, because magic. Do you have a rough definition of the word "proof" that doesn't basically render that entire clause pointless through absurd expectations of evidence (since literally being able to put step through the wall isn't convincing enough apparently).
Also, since I have no idea how being an illusion of a more specific thing/person would make a difference (aside from the potential of looking slightly different, which actually CAN be explained by magical non-illusionary effects or even mundane effects), could you illustrate your point with a couple of examples.
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Also, since I have no idea how being an illusion of a more specific thing/person would make a difference (aside from the potential of looking slightly different, which actually CAN be explained by magical non-illusionary effects or even mundane effects), could you illustrate your point with a couple of examples.
For example: a disguise self spell which is touched and the person really there is noticably differently sized than the original. You might not know what's going on - but you'd know for certain it's not the person you initially saw. (A disguise self which only makes minor changes such as skin tone/eye color wouldn't be subject to this.)
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You can't make a door seem to be a wall with a figment - and I can't think of any glamers that would work anyway. So again - any figment which is allowed would - by your logic - be proven away as soon as it's interacted with.
Nor did I say you could. I said it hides the door, as in being cast in front of it and blocking sight. As you touch the illusion, you get the will save to say 'huh, feels like a door, not a wall' and see through it.
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You can't make a door seem to be a wall with a figment - and I can't think of any glamers that would work anyway. So again - any figment which is allowed would - by your logic - be proven away as soon as it's interacted with.Nor did I say you could. I said it hides the door, as in being cast in front of it and blocking sight. As you touch the illusion, you get the will save to say 'huh, feels like a door, not a wall' and see through it.
So - it's (in your interpretation) a matter of degrees then.
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For example: a disguise self spell which is touched and the person really there is noticably differently sized than the original. You might not know what's going on - but you'd know for certain it's not the person you initially saw. (A disguise self which only makes minor changes such as skin tone/eye color wouldn't be subject to this.)Also, since I have no idea how being an illusion of a more specific thing/person would make a difference (aside from the potential of looking slightly different, which actually CAN be explained by magical non-illusionary effects or even mundane effects), could you illustrate your point with a couple of examples.
Fun fact - Disguise self is a glamor, not a figment. It ACTUALLY changes how someone looks (as opposed to a figment, which only creates a false sensation). You don't ever get a will save. You can notice, however, that a glamored human feels furry (because the spell does not alter tactile sensations).
Lets pretend it is a figment for a moment, not a glamor. You just said that the tactile sensation (sensed via a touch) of a person is different to their appearance(visual). How is this different from the tactile properties of a wall being different from its visual properties (looks like a wall vs doesn't feel like anything).
Also, just so there is not any confusion, when I say proof, I am referring to the following text
Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief)
Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.
A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline.
A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. A character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.
I am asking about the proof necessary to automatically disbelieve the figment.
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Fun fact - Disguise self is a glamor, not a figment. It ACTUALLY changes how someone looks (as opposed to a figment, which only creates a false sensation).
That's two ways of saying the same thing. Saying something changes how it appears visually is the same thing as saying it changes how it looks.
You don't ever get a will save.
Yes you do. The whole disbelief section you quoted is from illusions in general - not figments in particular. Besides -
You make yourself - including clothing, armor, weapons, and equipment - look different. You can seem 1 foot shorter or taller, thin, fat, or in between. You cannot change your creature type (although you can appear as another subtype). Otherwise, the extent of the apparent change is up to you. You could add or obscure a minor feature or look like an entirely different person or gender.
The spell does not provide the abilities or mannerisms of the chosen form, nor does it alter the perceived tactile (touch) or audible (sound) properties of you or your equipment. If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on the Disguise check. A creature that interacts with the glamer gets a Will save to recognize it as an illusion.
Lets pretend it is a figment for a moment, not a glamor. You just said that the tactile sensation (sensed via a touch) of a person is different to their appearance(visual). How is this different from the tactile properties of a wall being different from its visual properties (looks like a wall vs doesn't feel like anything).
It's different (the examples - not because they're figment vs glamor) - because if your hand goes through a wall - you know that it's not a NORMAL wall. But in Pathfinder, just because something isn't a NORMAL wall doesn't mean that it doesn't exist at all. If your hand goes through your wife's face - you know that she's not really there. You don't know what is really there - but you know it's not your wife.
How many degrees apart do you consider touching a wall from falling through one?
Quite a few. (Though I still say that the creature wouldn't go entirely through the wall unless he either disbelieves or was pushed.) But you should still know where the cut-off is for your interpretation.
The interacting with a figment rule is not especially useful for silent image when it is used to make a wall. Once your hand passes through it you're probably into the proof clause already.
An example of when the 'interaction' clause would apply to a silent image would be a caster creating an image of a wraith, that you then stab. The caster can make the figment 'react' appropriately, but you've now interacted with the figment and get a saving throw. The same situation with something like an orc would not work, you'd be in the proof clause already, because there are no additional sensory elements that a corporeal creature would need.
There's not a figment in the game that will stand up to the passing-your-hand-through-a-wall scenario, not if it isn't cast over some other solid object. Figments are very specific about their limitations, you'd need a shadow spell to make a wall that would do what you want.
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I've seen turtles try repeatedly to move through both transparent and opaque walls, so I wouldn't be surprised if an image of a wall didn't have much effect on mindless vermin.
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casting a silent image of a rope doesn't allow the clueless barbarian to climb it, at least I've never seen it played that way.