Mythic Fighter vs Wizard!


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Liberty's Edge

andreww wrote:


Runes doesnt allow a save to those standing next to them. It's sort of why dropping a billion of them on things can theoretically kill almost anything.

But they have to actually get "next to them" and that's not a trivial requirement.

Also, it isn't guaranteed that the runes will go off. Combat Reflexes[M], Disruptive and Spellbreaker[M] together mean that no nonmythic creature within your reach will ever get a spell or spell-like off, even dispel magic...


BigDTBone wrote:
Shadowkire wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
Shadowkire wrote:

As someone said up thread:

If Anzyr's Spellbane suppresses Mage's Magnificent Enclosure then Anzyr can't cast that spell, because it would count as casting said spell while in an anti-magic field.

[edit]
Aside from that it is questionable what would happen if he cast MME during Time Stop. TS states you can't enter the area of an antimagic field, MME is a touch spell that generates(among other things) an antimagic field out to a 10ft radius.

Going full rules lawyer:
Time Stop doesn't say you can't be in the area of an antimagic field, that is assumed because TS can't be cast within one. It only says you can't move into an area with antimagic. Thus the wizard would trap himself inside the antimagic field with the fighter.

Time Stop:
"You are undetectable while time stop lasts. You cannot enter an area protected by an antimagic field while under the effect of time stop."

Mage's Magnificent Enclosure:
"Within the area of the spell, effects are suppressed and creatures are affected as by antimagic field."

I used a Reach MMME. Then moved into the area suppressing it. This is why the order I do things in matters.
I thought meta magic rods required a person to hold them, how are you holding a glass orb, a rod, and piecing the glass orb with a nail?
I already asked him that before his last round of responses. That is one he chose not to answer. Presumably because he doesn't have an answer.

You only need one free hand to use material components. I assumed the answer was to obvious, so I didn't bother since I only need one hand to hold my Staff of the Master (Necromancy). If you can't pierce a glass orb with a nail using only one hand, that's a personal problem.


Shisumo wrote:
andreww wrote:


Runes doesnt allow a save to those standing next to them. It's sort of why dropping a billion of them on things can theoretically kill almost anything.

But they have to actually get "next to them" and that's not a trivial requirement.

Also, it isn't guaranteed that the runes will go off. Combat Reflexes[M], Disruptive and Spellbreaker[M] together mean that no nonmythic creature within your reach will ever get a spell or spell-like off, even dispel magic...

The creature casting Greater Dispel Magic isn't anywhere near you. So... none of that actually helps you. And again, since the Greater Dispel Magic user has a readied action, and the runes were placed next to you while time is stopped. You die before you get an action.


Anzyr wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:
Shadowkire wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
Shadowkire wrote:

As someone said up thread:

If Anzyr's Spellbane suppresses Mage's Magnificent Enclosure then Anzyr can't cast that spell, because it would count as casting said spell while in an anti-magic field.

[edit]
Aside from that it is questionable what would happen if he cast MME during Time Stop. TS states you can't enter the area of an antimagic field, MME is a touch spell that generates(among other things) an antimagic field out to a 10ft radius.

Going full rules lawyer:
Time Stop doesn't say you can't be in the area of an antimagic field, that is assumed because TS can't be cast within one. It only says you can't move into an area with antimagic. Thus the wizard would trap himself inside the antimagic field with the fighter.

Time Stop:
"You are undetectable while time stop lasts. You cannot enter an area protected by an antimagic field while under the effect of time stop."

Mage's Magnificent Enclosure:
"Within the area of the spell, effects are suppressed and creatures are affected as by antimagic field."

I used a Reach MMME. Then moved into the area suppressing it. This is why the order I do things in matters.
I thought meta magic rods required a person to hold them, how are you holding a glass orb, a rod, and piecing the glass orb with a nail?
I already asked him that before his last round of responses. That is one he chose not to answer. Presumably because he doesn't have an answer.
You only need one free hand to use material components. I assumed the answer was to obvious, so I didn't bother since I only need one hand to hold my Staff of the Master (Necromancy). If you can't pierce a glass orb with a nail using only one hand, that's a personal problem.

You ALSO need a free hand for somatic components and I thought it was obvious you don't have 3!

You actually don't regularly need a free hand for material components.


Anzyr wrote:
Shisumo wrote:
andreww wrote:


Runes doesnt allow a save to those standing next to them. It's sort of why dropping a billion of them on things can theoretically kill almost anything.

But they have to actually get "next to them" and that's not a trivial requirement.

Also, it isn't guaranteed that the runes will go off. Combat Reflexes[M], Disruptive and Spellbreaker[M] together mean that no nonmythic creature within your reach will ever get a spell or spell-like off, even dispel magic...

The creature casting Greater Dispel Magic isn't anywhere near you. So... none of that actually helps you. And again, since the Greater Dispel Magic user has a readied action, and the runes were placed next to you while time is stopped. You die before you get an action.

Your buddy can't ready an action until HIS turn on initiative. When did your simulacrum beat me? There is still a 40% chance that YOU didn't beat me!


BigDTBone wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
Shisumo wrote:
andreww wrote:


Runes doesnt allow a save to those standing next to them. It's sort of why dropping a billion of them on things can theoretically kill almost anything.

But they have to actually get "next to them" and that's not a trivial requirement.

Also, it isn't guaranteed that the runes will go off. Combat Reflexes[M], Disruptive and Spellbreaker[M] together mean that no nonmythic creature within your reach will ever get a spell or spell-like off, even dispel magic...

The creature casting Greater Dispel Magic isn't anywhere near you. So... none of that actually helps you. And again, since the Greater Dispel Magic user has a readied action, and the runes were placed next to you while time is stopped. You die before you get an action.
Your buddy can't ready an action until HIS turn on initiative. When did your simulacrum beat me? There is still a 40% chance that YOU didn't beat me!

The minion is always readying that action. You use one hand to prepare the Material Components, which in this case is the Orb and pierce it with with a nail. Why do you need a third hand for this? The somantic components are also just part of the spell. I believe you are confused. Sorry, but using components and somantic components is part of the action of casting the spell and you only need one hand to do it.

Liberty's Edge

BigDTBone wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
Shisumo wrote:
andreww wrote:


Runes doesnt allow a save to those standing next to them. It's sort of why dropping a billion of them on things can theoretically kill almost anything.

But they have to actually get "next to them" and that's not a trivial requirement.

Also, it isn't guaranteed that the runes will go off. Combat Reflexes[M], Disruptive and Spellbreaker[M] together mean that no nonmythic creature within your reach will ever get a spell or spell-like off, even dispel magic...

The creature casting Greater Dispel Magic isn't anywhere near you. So... none of that actually helps you. And again, since the Greater Dispel Magic user has a readied action, and the runes were placed next to you while time is stopped. You die before you get an action.
Your buddy can't ready an action until HIS turn on initiative. When did your simulacrum beat me? There is still a 40% chance that YOU didn't beat me!

No kidding! Nobody is going to politely wait until the nalfeshnee is ready for a fight to roll initiative - and as soon as the demon-clone shows up within roughly 400 feet, the fighter sees it and rolls init.


Anzyr wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
Shisumo wrote:
andreww wrote:


Runes doesnt allow a save to those standing next to them. It's sort of why dropping a billion of them on things can theoretically kill almost anything.

But they have to actually get "next to them" and that's not a trivial requirement.

Also, it isn't guaranteed that the runes will go off. Combat Reflexes[M], Disruptive and Spellbreaker[M] together mean that no nonmythic creature within your reach will ever get a spell or spell-like off, even dispel magic...

The creature casting Greater Dispel Magic isn't anywhere near you. So... none of that actually helps you. And again, since the Greater Dispel Magic user has a readied action, and the runes were placed next to you while time is stopped. You die before you get an action.
Your buddy can't ready an action until HIS turn on initiative. When did your simulacrum beat me? There is still a 40% chance that YOU didn't beat me!
The minion is always readying that action. You use one hand to prepare the Material Components, which in this case is the Orb and pierce it with with a nail. Why do you need a third hand for this? I believe you are confused. Sorry, but using components and Focuses is part of the action of casting the spell and you only need one hand to do it.

It is when the spell SPECIFICALLY CALLS IT OUT. That spell has a special rule. In fact, just to cast it AT ALL you are going to have to free action drop your magic stick on the ground or use a move action to stow it.

Which STILL doesn't let you cast a spell you have a spellbane up for.

Which STILL doesn't let you catch me in an AOE during your time stop.


Anzyr wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
Shisumo wrote:
andreww wrote:


Runes doesnt allow a save to those standing next to them. It's sort of why dropping a billion of them on things can theoretically kill almost anything.

But they have to actually get "next to them" and that's not a trivial requirement.

Also, it isn't guaranteed that the runes will go off. Combat Reflexes[M], Disruptive and Spellbreaker[M] together mean that no nonmythic creature within your reach will ever get a spell or spell-like off, even dispel magic...

The creature casting Greater Dispel Magic isn't anywhere near you. So... none of that actually helps you. And again, since the Greater Dispel Magic user has a readied action, and the runes were placed next to you while time is stopped. You die before you get an action.
Your buddy can't ready an action until HIS turn on initiative. When did your simulacrum beat me? There is still a 40% chance that YOU didn't beat me!
The minion is always readying that action. You use one hand to prepare the Material Components, which in this case is the Orb and pierce it with with a nail. Why do you need a third hand for this? The somantic components are also just part of the spell. I believe you are confused. Sorry, but using components and somantic components is part of the action of casting the spell and you only need one hand to do it.

How is he readying that action before his turn if you just t-ported him in to the plane? You can't carry a readied action from before combat if you lose focus on the target. As soon as you t-port with combat range of me it is a NEW initiative. By the way, combat range of me is 1 mile radius. I have max range at 5500'.


BigDTBone wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:
Shadowkire wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
Shadowkire wrote:

As someone said up thread:

If Anzyr's Spellbane suppresses Mage's Magnificent Enclosure then Anzyr can't cast that spell, because it would count as casting said spell while in an anti-magic field.

[edit]
Aside from that it is questionable what would happen if he cast MME during Time Stop. TS states you can't enter the area of an antimagic field, MME is a touch spell that generates(among other things) an antimagic field out to a 10ft radius.

Going full rules lawyer:
Time Stop doesn't say you can't be in the area of an antimagic field, that is assumed because TS can't be cast within one. It only says you can't move into an area with antimagic. Thus the wizard would trap himself inside the antimagic field with the fighter.

Time Stop:
"You are undetectable while time stop lasts. You cannot enter an area protected by an antimagic field while under the effect of time stop."

Mage's Magnificent Enclosure:
"Within the area of the spell, effects are suppressed and creatures are affected as by antimagic field."

I used a Reach MMME. Then moved into the area suppressing it. This is why the order I do things in matters.
I thought meta magic rods required a person to hold them, how are you holding a glass orb, a rod, and piecing the glass orb with a nail?
I already asked him that before his last round of responses. That is one he chose not to answer. Presumably because he doesn't have an answer.
You only need one free hand to use material components. I assumed the answer was to obvious, so I didn't bother since I only need one hand to hold my Staff of the Master (Necromancy). If you can't pierce a glass orb with a nail using only one hand, that's a personal problem.

You ALSO need a free hand for somatic components and I thought it was obvious you don't have 3!

You actually don't regularly need a free hand for material components.

You can use the same hand for both the material and somatic components of a spell. Otherwise you would never be able to cast a S, M spell with only one hand free - and the Magus would not function.


BigDTBone wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
Shisumo wrote:
andreww wrote:


Runes doesnt allow a save to those standing next to them. It's sort of why dropping a billion of them on things can theoretically kill almost anything.

But they have to actually get "next to them" and that's not a trivial requirement.

Also, it isn't guaranteed that the runes will go off. Combat Reflexes[M], Disruptive and Spellbreaker[M] together mean that no nonmythic creature within your reach will ever get a spell or spell-like off, even dispel magic...

The creature casting Greater Dispel Magic isn't anywhere near you. So... none of that actually helps you. And again, since the Greater Dispel Magic user has a readied action, and the runes were placed next to you while time is stopped. You die before you get an action.
Your buddy can't ready an action until HIS turn on initiative. When did your simulacrum beat me? There is still a 40% chance that YOU didn't beat me!
The minion is always readying that action. You use one hand to prepare the Material Components, which in this case is the Orb and pierce it with with a nail. Why do you need a third hand for this? I believe you are confused. Sorry, but using components and Focuses is part of the action of casting the spell and you only need one hand to do it.

It is when the spell SPECIFICALLY CALLS IT OUT. That spell has a special rule. In fact, just to cast it AT ALL you are going to have to free action drop your magic stick on the ground or use a move action to stow it.

Which STILL doesn't let you cast a spell you have a spellbane up for.

Which STILL doesn't let you catch me in an AOE during your time stop.

The AOE is after you exit the Time Stop.

You can cast Spells that you have Spellbane up for.

I'm going to need a citation that named components differ from the regular rules.


BigDTBone wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
Shisumo wrote:
andreww wrote:


Runes doesnt allow a save to those standing next to them. It's sort of why dropping a billion of them on things can theoretically kill almost anything.

But they have to actually get "next to them" and that's not a trivial requirement.

Also, it isn't guaranteed that the runes will go off. Combat Reflexes[M], Disruptive and Spellbreaker[M] together mean that no nonmythic creature within your reach will ever get a spell or spell-like off, even dispel magic...

The creature casting Greater Dispel Magic isn't anywhere near you. So... none of that actually helps you. And again, since the Greater Dispel Magic user has a readied action, and the runes were placed next to you while time is stopped. You die before you get an action.
Your buddy can't ready an action until HIS turn on initiative. When did your simulacrum beat me? There is still a 40% chance that YOU didn't beat me!
The minion is always readying that action. You use one hand to prepare the Material Components, which in this case is the Orb and pierce it with with a nail. Why do you need a third hand for this? The somantic components are also just part of the spell. I believe you are confused. Sorry, but using components and somantic components is part of the action of casting the spell and you only need one hand to do it.
How is he readying that action before his turn if you just t-ported him in to the plane? You can't carry a readied action from before combat if you lose focus on the target. As soon as you t-port with combat range of me it is a NEW initiative. By the way, combat range of me is 1 mile radius. I have max range at 5500'.

There are many of ways of getting close to you without being detectable after we arrive on the plane.

Liberty's Edge

You can't "continuously" ready an action. Readying is a "special initiative action,"and you can only do it once initiative has been rolled. Period. And anything weak enough to not have a chance to dispel the rune has no reasonable chance to beat the fighter on initiative. It doesn't work.


Anzyr wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
Shisumo wrote:
andreww wrote:


Runes doesnt allow a save to those standing next to them. It's sort of why dropping a billion of them on things can theoretically kill almost anything.

But they have to actually get "next to them" and that's not a trivial requirement.

Also, it isn't guaranteed that the runes will go off. Combat Reflexes[M], Disruptive and Spellbreaker[M] together mean that no nonmythic creature within your reach will ever get a spell or spell-like off, even dispel magic...

The creature casting Greater Dispel Magic isn't anywhere near you. So... none of that actually helps you. And again, since the Greater Dispel Magic user has a readied action, and the runes were placed next to you while time is stopped. You die before you get an action.
Your buddy can't ready an action until HIS turn on initiative. When did your simulacrum beat me? There is still a 40% chance that YOU didn't beat me!
The minion is always readying that action. You use one hand to prepare the Material Components, which in this case is the Orb and pierce it with with a nail. Why do you need a third hand for this? I believe you are confused. Sorry, but using components and Focuses is part of the action of casting the spell and you only need one hand to do it.

It is when the spell SPECIFICALLY CALLS IT OUT. That spell has a special rule. In fact, just to cast it AT ALL you are going to have to free action drop your magic stick on the ground or use a move action to stow it.

Which STILL doesn't let you cast a spell you have a spellbane up for.

Which STILL doesn't let you catch me in an AOE during your time stop.

The AOE is after you exit the Time Stop.

You can cast Spells that you have Spellbane up for.

I'm going to need a citation that named components differ from the regular rules.

The citation is in the spell MME.

You need to read spellbane again, every line of it.

The AOE is catching me before your time stop is over that was in your detailed description. Right before you pondered lunch and laughed maniacally.

If you cheat then you can win for sure. I thought you were going to show us some by the books stuff?

Also, I've killed you three times. How many times do you get backsies/ do over to prove you win no question every time?


Anzyr wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
Shisumo wrote:
andreww wrote:


Runes doesnt allow a save to those standing next to them. It's sort of why dropping a billion of them on things can theoretically kill almost anything.

But they have to actually get "next to them" and that's not a trivial requirement.

Also, it isn't guaranteed that the runes will go off. Combat Reflexes[M], Disruptive and Spellbreaker[M] together mean that no nonmythic creature within your reach will ever get a spell or spell-like off, even dispel magic...

The creature casting Greater Dispel Magic isn't anywhere near you. So... none of that actually helps you. And again, since the Greater Dispel Magic user has a readied action, and the runes were placed next to you while time is stopped. You die before you get an action.
Your buddy can't ready an action until HIS turn on initiative. When did your simulacrum beat me? There is still a 40% chance that YOU didn't beat me!
The minion is always readying that action. You use one hand to prepare the Material Components, which in this case is the Orb and pierce it with with a nail. Why do you need a third hand for this? The somantic components are also just part of the spell. I believe you are confused. Sorry, but using components and somantic components is part of the action of casting the spell and you only need one hand to do it.
How is he readying that action before his turn if you just t-ported him in to the plane? You can't carry a readied action from before combat if you lose focus on the target. As soon as you t-port with combat range of me it is a NEW initiative. By the way, combat range of me is 1 mile radius. I have max range at 5500'.
There are many of ways of getting close to you without being detectable after we arrive on the plane.

You are equivocating again. Specific tactics for hiding a simulacrum army or it didn't happen.


BigDTBone wrote:


You need to read spellbane again, every line of it.

I'm not throwing in my support for this argument on either side, but I'm not sure what you are trying to get at here. Aroden's functions as antimagic field. You can still cast spells and activate magic items inside an antimagic field, they are just suppressed for the duration. Thus, you can still cast spells that you have aroden's spellbane for (although in most situations they would be immediately suppressed and thus useless).

So, maybe you need to read antimagic field again, every line of it?


I'm curious, what would hypothetical uber-wizard do in this instance if a divine rank 5 deity hadabilities which...

  • A) boosted its SR into the high 50s
  • B) had another 4 or 5 lesser versions of itself running around the battlefield (which all seem precisely like it does)
  • C) had the ability to alter reality for unlimited wishes
  • D) could use free actions to dispel anything it sees within line of sight
  • E) always went first on initiative

I ask because it'd be easy for a low rank deity to have all 5 of those. It seems we're talking all about what makes wizards uber-awesome to the point of using one single trick to take down anything, but we're considering gods as just chumps that'll sit there and take it, having forgotten like a bunch of morons to take their salient divine abilities with them when they left home.


Blakmane wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:


You need to read spellbane again, every line of it.

I'm not throwing in my support for this argument on either side, but I'm not sure what you are trying to get at here. Aroden's functions as antimagic field. You can still cast spells and activate magic items inside an antimagic field, they are just suppressed for the duration. Thus, you can still cast spells that you have aroden's spellbane for (although in most situations they would be immediately suppressed and thus useless).

So, maybe you need to read antimagic field again, every line of it?

Spellbane uses the phrase "prevent functioning" AND "prevent casting of," right there in the Frakkin' description.


Cerberus Seven wrote:
I'm curious, what would hypothetical uber-wizard do in this instance if a divine rank 5 deity hadabilities which...
  • A) boosted its SR into the high 50s
  • B) had another 4 or 5 lesser versions of itself running around the battlefield (which all seem precisely like it does)
  • C) had the ability to alter reality for unlimited wishes
  • D) could use free actions to dispel anything it sees within line of sight
  • E) always went first on initiative

I ask because it'd be easy for a low rank deity to have all 5 of those. It seems we're talking all about what makes wizards uber-awesome to the point of using one single trick to take down anything, but we're considering gods as just chumps that'll sit there and take it, having forgotten like a bunch of morons to take their salient divine abilities with them when they left home.

PF deities do not have stats and never will. Their power is narrative. RAW you can't win against a PF deity. You need a GM before you can even try.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I think that I would side with the wizard on a few of those things. Spellbane does not really say 'prevents casting', it does mention functioning as AMF. Also MME does not call out needing two hands available. I'm sure we can find other spells with more than one material component. Although between your components, somatic, staff and rod in your hands; the wizard may be fined for littering on the battlefield.

However, time stop does say that you can't enter AMF. I suspect that spellbane would not counter other spells while time stop is up. So the fighter could not be in the area during that time stop attack. (not that a mythic fighter couldn't break out easily)

And back to runes... easily counterable as explained... is the wizard taking hundreds of move actions to remove these objects from his haversack? It would be a generous GM that would allow multiple runes on one object. You also cannot ready actions outside of combat.

As a point, the original OP (who has never chimed in and must be laughing at this explosion) said typical wizard. I do not believe this is a typical wizard.


Marroar Gellantara wrote:
Cerberus Seven wrote:
I'm curious, what would hypothetical uber-wizard do in this instance if a divine rank 5 deity hadabilities which...
  • A) boosted its SR into the high 50s
  • B) had another 4 or 5 lesser versions of itself running around the battlefield (which all seem precisely like it does)
  • C) had the ability to alter reality for unlimited wishes
  • D) could use free actions to dispel anything it sees within line of sight
  • E) always went first on initiative

I ask because it'd be easy for a low rank deity to have all 5 of those. It seems we're talking all about what makes wizards uber-awesome to the point of using one single trick to take down anything, but we're considering gods as just chumps that'll sit there and take it, having forgotten like a bunch of morons to take their salient divine abilities with them when they left home.
PF deities do not have stats and never will. Their power is narrative. RAW you can't win against a PF deity. You need a GM before you can even try.

PF is reverse compatible with 3rd edition. 3rd edition has rules for how gods function. So, yes, their power is narrative, but it's similar to the kind of story-defining narrative ability we see in a high-level spellcaster, only in this case due to extreme power based on a set of rules and abilities specific to such entities rather than just 'all the spells'.


Seannoss wrote:

I think that I would side with the wizard on a few of those things. Spellbane does not really say 'prevents casting', it does mention functioning as AMF. Also MME does not call out needing two hands available. I'm sure we can find other spells with more than one material component. Although between your components, somatic, staff and rod in your hands; the wizard may be fined for littering on the battlefield.

However, time stop does say that you can't enter AMF. I suspect that spellbane would not counter other spells while time stop is up. So the fighter could not be in the area during that time stop attack. (not that a mythic fighter couldn't break out easily)

And back to runes... easily counterable as explained... is the wizard taking hundreds of move actions to remove these objects from his haversack? It would be a generous GM that would allow multiple runes on one object. You also cannot ready actions outside of combat.

As a point, the original OP (who has never chimed in and must be laughing at this explosion) said typical wizard. I do not believe this is a typical wizard.

It actually EXACTLY uses the phrase, "a spellbane set to prevent the casting of..," right there in the spell description. It is entirely clear that spellbaned spells cannot be cast. Being the owner of spellbane doesn't change that.

As for MME, you always need one free hand specifically for somatic components. MME tells you that you must occupy the other hand with material components. Unless you have 3 hands you aren't holding a staff. If you have three hands then we aren't talking about a generic wizard anymore and I want to see a full stat block.


Anyway, it's become clear that Anzyr isn't prepared to demonstrate under rigor that his claim is true. So I'm going away for the day (I have interviews for a doctoral program! Woot!) I'll check in later and see if anyone new has taken up his mantle.


Hmmm if we assume lich human wizard and give infinite time. WBL is double 1,760,000.

Base stats would be
7 str
12 dex
14 con (cause we always start with that)
20 int
10 wis
10 cha

after items and stuff
13 str
18 dex
-- con
38 int
19 wis
19 cha

being a lich, effective 240K gold cost (since this cost is not halved from crafting)
Greater quicken rod 170K
Greater maximize rod 121.5K
Blessed book 10K (all PRD spells copied for free and gathered with time)
Super mental headband 144K
Less super belt 90K
+4 int tome 110K

Simulacrums of self 5K per copy
Undead armies 25g per HD

If I was doing this.
Be at range at start of duel
Maximise time stop
round 1: Teleport by fighter on ground
round 2: wall of force
round 3: wall of force
round 4: wall of force
round 5: Fly up and open a gate to a bunch of lava

Fighter is trapped between the ground, 3 walls and is taking 20d6 fire per turn. His options are to either flee, die, or break the force wall.

The first two options result in wizard winning the duel, the last option depends on whether or not you can swing your weapon in lava and how effectively you can move, which is an open rules discussion.

NOTE: The strat was meant for my posted fighter. Using amf could break a wall or remove the gate.


Fun AMF fact of the day, it does nothing at all to Wall of Force.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

To avoid quibbling about hands, here is the complete sentence from Spellbane: Select one spell per five caster levels at the time of casting. The spells selected cannot be changed after the spell is cast. This spell otherwise functions like antimagic field, except its emanation only prevents the functioning of the selected spells. Only the exact spells mentioned are affected—a spellbane set to prevent the casting of summon nature’s ally II would not prevent castings of summon nature’s ally I or summon nature’s ally III.

Doesn't exactly confirm that the listed spells cannot be cast when read in whole. This boils down to reading into things in the PF rules, you may be correct though.

And material components from the PRD: A material component consists of one or more physical substances or objects that are annihilated by the spell energies in the casting process. Unless a cost is given for a material component, the cost is negligible. Don't bother to keep track of material components with negligible cost. Assume you have all you need as long as you have your spell component pouch.

Oddly enough, you do not need a free hand for. Nor does MME call it out, I would consider it flavor text. If not you would need three hands to cast that spell; for M, M and S... and that would have to be called out. If you want to really bend things RAW doesn't even say that materials have to be on your body.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I do not believe that you could open a gate that would harm the fighter as wall of force blocks line of effect.

If not.... guardian level one reduces damage by 5/tier and then gives resistance. Or immunity to fire is fairly common.


Seannoss wrote:

To avoid quibbling about hands, here is the complete sentence from Spellbane: Select one spell per five caster levels at the time of casting. The spells selected cannot be changed after the spell is cast. This spell otherwise functions like antimagic field, except its emanation only prevents the functioning of the selected spells. Only the exact spells mentioned are affected—a spellbane set to prevent the casting of summon nature’s ally II would not prevent castings of summon nature’s ally I or summon nature’s ally III.

Doesn't exactly confirm that the listed spells cannot be cast when read in whole. This boils down to reading into things in the PF rules, you may be correct though.

And material components from the PRD: A material component consists of one or more physical substances or objects that are annihilated by the spell energies in the casting process. Unless a cost is given for a material component, the cost is negligible. Don't bother to keep track of material components with negligible cost. Assume you have all you need as long as you have your spell component pouch.

Oddly enough, you do not need a free hand for. Nor does MME call it out, I would consider it flavor text. If not you would need three hands to cast that spell; for M, M and S... and that would have to be called out. If you want to really bend things RAW doesn't even say that materials have to be on your body.

Material components must be attended by you, and the spell does specifically say that you must use the nail to break the ball. That's not flavor, that's the spell.


Seannoss wrote:

I do not believe that you could open a gate that would harm the fighter as wall of force blocks line of effect.

If not.... guardian level one reduces damage by 5/tier and then gives resistance. Or immunity to fire is fairly common.

Ah, but I am not. The Gate is the ceiling to the force prison. Lava is just falling through unto the fighter.

Let's see, With a +14 int, and Universal wizard (cause why not?) I have 6 9th level spells.

Two time stops and 4 gates.

With the quicken rod, I can keep the lave going and warm constantly for 80 rounds.

The guardian ability stacks with itself, so the fighter could live through it just fine, but then be imprisoned in sheets of stone unable to move.

Liberty's Edge

That strategy isn't meaningfully different from the magnificent enclosure tactix Anwyr offered earlier, and it fails for the same reason: the fighter can get through the wall of force in one round. 20d6 fire is 65 damage, his sword heals that as soon as he gets out, no real consequences.

Scarab Sages

Anzyr wrote:
Shisumo wrote:
andreww wrote:


Runes doesnt allow a save to those standing next to them. It's sort of why dropping a billion of them on things can theoretically kill almost anything.

But they have to actually get "next to them" and that's not a trivial requirement.

Also, it isn't guaranteed that the runes will go off. Combat Reflexes[M], Disruptive and Spellbreaker[M] together mean that no nonmythic creature within your reach will ever get a spell or spell-like off, even dispel magic...

The creature casting Greater Dispel Magic isn't anywhere near you. So... none of that actually helps you. And again, since the Greater Dispel Magic user has a readied action, and the runes were placed next to you while time is stopped. You die before you get an action.
Anzyr wrote:
The minion is always readying that action.

You cannot ready actions outside combat.


Shisumo wrote:
That strategy isn't meaningfully different from the magnificent enclosure tactix Anwyr offered earlier, and it fails for the same reason: the fighter can get through the wall of force in one round. 20d6 fire is 65 damage, his sword heals that as soon as he gets out, no real consequences.

Whether or not you can swing your sword in lava is an open rules debate.


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Anzyr wrote:
The minion is always readying that action.

While I agree that there's no reasonable way a fighter (even a mythic fighter) is going to legitimately win against a 20th level wizard, this is not how readied actions work and it discredits much of your argument, Anzyr. You cannot ready an action pre-initiative because that's literally what initiative is for.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Auren "Rin" Cloudstrider wrote:
Shisumo wrote:
Auren "Rin" Cloudstrider wrote:
generally, for a martial build to defeat a spellcaster, they need a lot of help from a spellcaster
"Generally" is not a word with any relevance where mythic is concerned.
Mythic martials also need a spellcasters help. because they also depend on a lot of magic items, and master craftsman has issues with providing the utility magic items the martial character needs to take the caster down. barely working for maybe a portion of the big 6.

You do understand that the game itself is built on cooperative effort, not an "every man is an island" approach?

Liberty's Edge

Marroar Gellantara wrote:
Shisumo wrote:
That strategy isn't meaningfully different from the magnificent enclosure tactix Anwyr offered earlier, and it fails for the same reason: the fighter can get through the wall of force in one round. 20d6 fire is 65 damage, his sword heals that as soon as he gets out, no real consequences.
Whether or not you can swing your sword in lava is an open rules debate.

Doesn't matter. Without the AMF he doesn't need to. He goes ethereal and slips out through the floor. Or uses his ghost touch weapon to beat the hell out of the wall anyway, because it annoys him.


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LazarX wrote:
Auren "Rin" Cloudstrider wrote:
Shisumo wrote:
Auren "Rin" Cloudstrider wrote:
generally, for a martial build to defeat a spellcaster, they need a lot of help from a spellcaster
"Generally" is not a word with any relevance where mythic is concerned.
Mythic martials also need a spellcasters help. because they also depend on a lot of magic items, and master craftsman has issues with providing the utility magic items the martial character needs to take the caster down. barely working for maybe a portion of the big 6.
You do understand that the game itself is built on cooperative effort, not an "every man is an island" approach?

To an extent you're correct. However, it's often the case that the enemies you're fighting make use of class abilities to be more effective at trying to kill the PCs. Most of the time, it's a much bigger impact to the fight if the enemy can maze your heaviest hitters while having up mirror images, being under a mind blank, and having some summoned demons to help than if they have sneak attack lots of skill points and a few rogue talents. The classes should work well for both PC and NPCs. Whether or not they all stack up properly is, obviously, subject to some debate.


Artanthos wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
There are many of ways of getting close to you without being detectable after we arrive on the plane.

Every mythic character, at tier 1, has access to Undetectable.

How do you know my location? You don't.

Mind Blank can be bypassed by anything that is not a divination spell. Undetectable is an absolute.

We didn't even get to the part where I go around invisible and undetectable and have my permanent programmed image follow me around at random vectors 100-150 ft away yet. I was going to wait for him to blow his routine and then shoot him again.

The problem with the Wizards always win argument is that people assume fighters don't get access to spells at all, and that they don't use deceptive tactics. Dude, I trade protection services at the local church for a once a week commune spell, and the FIRST question is always "is someone who has the potential to succeed going to attempt to kill me this week?"

When the answer is "yes" I lay traps.

Scarab Sages

Anzyr wrote:
There are many of ways of getting close to you without being detectable after we arrive on the plane.

Every mythic character, at tier 1, has access to Undetectable.

How do you know my location? You don't.
Mind Blank can be bypassed by anything that is not a divination spell. Undetectable is an absolute.

Even if you did manage to teleport in, catch me unaware, and detonate an infinite number of Explosive Runes:
Absorb Blow + an initial 10 points of fire resistance (from an item) grants a total of 40 Fire Resistance. Your Explosive Runes are unable to harm me.


Shisumo wrote:
Marroar Gellantara wrote:
Shisumo wrote:
That strategy isn't meaningfully different from the magnificent enclosure tactix Anwyr offered earlier, and it fails for the same reason: the fighter can get through the wall of force in one round. 20d6 fire is 65 damage, his sword heals that as soon as he gets out, no real consequences.
Whether or not you can swing your sword in lava is an open rules debate.
Doesn't matter. Without the AMF he doesn't need to. He goes ethereal and slips out through the floor. Or uses his ghost touch weapon to beat the hell out of the wall anyway, because it annoys him.

Ah good, you beat the first tactic.

I do not have this wizard fully prepared out. So I call the first duel as your win.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Marroar Gellantara wrote:
Seannoss wrote:

I do not believe that you could open a gate that would harm the fighter as wall of force blocks line of effect.

If not.... guardian level one reduces damage by 5/tier and then gives resistance. Or immunity to fire is fairly common.

Ah, but I am not. The Gate is the ceiling to the force prison. Lava is just falling through unto the fighter.

Let's see, With a +14 int, and Universal wizard (cause why not?) I have 6 9th level spells.

Two time stops and 4 gates.

With the quicken rod, I can keep the lave going and warm constantly for 80 rounds.

The guardian ability stacks with itself, so the fighter could live through it just fine, but then be imprisoned in sheets of stone unable to move.

Your wizard with +14 init will never get a chance to act either. Any tier 2 mythic character can take a 20 and add their tier to init. So another win for the poor fighter? And once again, wall of force? Has even lower hardness and less hp.


Seannoss wrote:
Marroar Gellantara wrote:
Seannoss wrote:

I do not believe that you could open a gate that would harm the fighter as wall of force blocks line of effect.

If not.... guardian level one reduces damage by 5/tier and then gives resistance. Or immunity to fire is fairly common.

Ah, but I am not. The Gate is the ceiling to the force prison. Lava is just falling through unto the fighter.

Let's see, With a +14 int, and Universal wizard (cause why not?) I have 6 9th level spells.

Two time stops and 4 gates.

With the quicken rod, I can keep the lave going and warm constantly for 80 rounds.

The guardian ability stacks with itself, so the fighter could live through it just fine, but then be imprisoned in sheets of stone unable to move.

Your wizard with +14 init will never get a chance to act either. Any tier 2 mythic character can take a 20 and add their tier to init. So another win for the poor fighter? And once again, wall of force? Has even lower hardness and less hp.

Fairly certain that +14 INT was describing his intellegence modifier. Ie, he has a 38 or 39.


BigDTBone wrote:
Seannoss wrote:
Marroar Gellantara wrote:
Seannoss wrote:

I do not believe that you could open a gate that would harm the fighter as wall of force blocks line of effect.

If not.... guardian level one reduces damage by 5/tier and then gives resistance. Or immunity to fire is fairly common.

Ah, but I am not. The Gate is the ceiling to the force prison. Lava is just falling through unto the fighter.

Let's see, With a +14 int, and Universal wizard (cause why not?) I have 6 9th level spells.

Two time stops and 4 gates.

With the quicken rod, I can keep the lave going and warm constantly for 80 rounds.

The guardian ability stacks with itself, so the fighter could live through it just fine, but then be imprisoned in sheets of stone unable to move.

Your wizard with +14 init will never get a chance to act either. Any tier 2 mythic character can take a 20 and add their tier to init. So another win for the poor fighter? And once again, wall of force? Has even lower hardness and less hp.
Fairly certain that +14 INT was describing his intellegence modifier. Ie, he has a 38 or 39.

It also did not matter who won initiative. I was in teleport range at the start not bow range.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

That would make more sense!

But reading gate, no where does it mention lava coming through. Is this another accepted tactic because high level casters rule? Interdimensional travel and calling creatures are the two listed effects.


Seannoss wrote:

That would make more sense!

But reading gate, no where does it mention lava coming through. Is this another accepted tactic because high level casters rule? Interdimensional travel and calling creatures are the two listed effects.

Yeah, gate is already powerful enough, let's not go adding capabilities not described.


How does a mythic fighter actually kill a wizard? Wouldn't you have contingency to protect you? Not to mention that wizards have more than one body after a certain level. I feel like this would lead to a stalemate.

Scarab Sages

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Marroar Gellantara wrote:
It also did not matter who won initiative. I was in teleport range at the start not bow range.
Teleport wrote:
This spell instantly transports you to a designated destination, which may be as distant as 100 miles per caster level.
Limitless Range (Ex) wrote:


Multiply the range increment on all of your ranged and thrown weapons by 5 feet, and these weapons no longer have a maximum range increment for you. You can throw any melee weapon as if it had a range increment of 20 feet—this increment isn't multiplied by 5, [b]but the weapon doesn't have a maximum range increment.[b]

Emphasis Mine.

Bow range > Teleport range.


I don't see why you can't ready an action out of combat. You can take standard actions out of combat. The rules for readied action says your initiative changes, but they don't say you can only do it during an encounter.

Interrupting someone doesn't or preparing to act as soon as something happens doesn't seem like a combat-only option.


Artanthos wrote:
Marroar Gellantara wrote:
It also did not matter who won initiative. I was in teleport range at the start not bow range.
Teleport wrote:
This spell instantly transports you to a designated destination, which may be as distant as 100 miles per caster level.
Limitless Range (Ex) wrote:


Multiply the range increment on all of your ranged and thrown weapons by 5 feet, and these weapons no longer have a maximum range increment for you. You can throw any melee weapon as if it had a range increment of 20 feet—this increment isn't multiplied by 5, but the weapon doesn't have a maximum range increment.

Bow range > Teleport range.

I imagine you still have to see what your shooting at. You've listed a lot of mythic powers, how many do you get in total again?


You guys argue and argue and argue. The only way to prove anything is to actually do a rumble with a Mythic Fighter vs. a Wizard. Set parameters for builds. Set terrain. Someone GM. Make sure builds are fair and reasonable. We all watch. I'll get the popcorn. Otherwise it's all theory and theory and theory and blah blah blah blah blah. Because, I can do this. Well this counters this. Oh yeah, well how about this. But I got this. And rock beats scissors. Well paper beats rock.

Edit: I for one would be interested in seeing an actual battle play out, and seeing two builds, and seeing the whole deal go down.

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